NationStates Jolt Archive

I recently finished a History project on the 3rd Ming Emperor of China Cheng Zhu

he did some notable stuff like driving the Mongols out of China, promoting Chinese culture and unity etc.

Cheng Zhu - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yongle

BUT

he also commissioned the voyages of Chinese explorer Zheng He
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_He

for the project i read a book called 1421: The Year China discovered the World by Gavin Menzies
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1421:_The_Year_China_Discovered_the_World

now in the book the author says that Zheng He may have sailed underneath Africa and hit the East coast of FLORIDA before sailing up to modern day VIRGINIA

also there is this quote from the explorer himself from Wiki

We have traversed more than 100,000 li (50,000 kilometers) of immense waterspaces and have beheld in the ocean huge waves like mountains rising in the sky, and we have set eyes on barbarian regions far away hidden in a blue transparency of light vapors, while our sails, loftily unfurled like clouds day and night, continued their course (as rapidly) as a star, traversing those savage waves as if we were treading a public thoroughfare…

and this map from 1418 that clearly shows a pretty accurate representation of the ENTIRE world

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Zhenghemap.jpg

so my question is what does everyone on NSG think?
how drastically would history have changed if the Chinese had colonized the Americas?

Then the yellow peril but fucking hurry up.

It would have been pretty drastic. America would have a different culture, and probably different values, which would change many events, like the Revolution.

If florida had been colonised it is likely it would not now be part of the United States. If the had colinised the south east of the US and the Europeans had moved to colonise the North East later on, it is likly Japan may have gotten in on what the Chinese were doing and moves across the pacific round to the West coast of America. Given the varied enemies they may have to face, the Native Americans would have had differing sucess fighting off these various colinisers. My guess is they would have had a fair time against the Japanese or the Chinese but the Europeans would have been harder for them, being more technologically and industrially developed. There would proberbly be no USA as we now know it. It is likly that the North American continent would look something like this. Canada would still be predominantly as it is now, the British and French taking most of it. The northen states would proberbly be in European hands until some kind of revolution (or it may be possible that there would be no revolution but merely inter colonial wars). The South East would be majoritively chinese and the western states would proberbly be a japenese imperial enclave. With that in mind the "West" as we now know it would be a lot more fractured and divided and far less homogenic but as democracy develops in Europe and spreads to Japan, it is likly that those Chinese in the South Easten US will pick it up and revolt against the more opressive native government. The "West" will have far more global legitimacy, having far more independent govermnets making it up, and thus will be more powerful against some of the more intransigent regimes of the Middle East.

Well, you would have a drastically different world, which is obvious.

What I wonder about, in this particular scenario, is how modern democratic institutions may have developed. European colonists had western traditions and Renaissance thinkers to spur democratic revolutions. The same cannot be said of Imperialist China.

If China had gone the route of the European colonizing powers, you would probably have a similiar world, only a lot more Chinese colonies, with European colonies trying to compete. The edge would definitely go to China, and you probably wouldn't see English develop as the modern primary tongue.

It's hard to say really.

I actually think they did have some influence on parts of the America's. The dragon's of the Aztec are very close to the Chinese counterparts. Also the legends of the Aztecs describing what would seem to be Chinese. There are other interesting oddities which include the possible Chinese anchors in the San Francisco Bay area.

If they were more aggressive as the Europeans then history would have been much much different. You would have seen a split of N America most likely at the Rockies. West coast would have been dominated by Chinese while the East European. Would most likely have been some great wars over the Great Plains area. Central and South America would be vastly different too with the Chinese most likely getting the gold from the Aztec and Inca empires rather then the Spanish.

The backbone of Menzies book, though, is the "Zheng He map", which has some rather major problems. For example, the map that Menzies has studied is not an original, instead it's a "copy" dating from the mid 1760's, done as a Mercator projection, quite unlike any Chinese maps that would have dated from 1421.

Second, the map has the notorious "Island of California" error, which was extremely common amongst European maps in the 1600's and 1700's.

Further, the Zheng He map makes use of European style reckonings of longitude.

It was most likely a novelty sold to a merchant during the late 1700's, based off of existing European maps of the world, not anything originial by Zheng He.

well the Chinese where steaming towards isolationism so I'd put my money on the Chinese going no further than some abandoned settlements like with the Vikings

I actually think they did have some influence on parts of the America's. The dragon's of the Aztec are very close to the Chinese counterparts. Also the legends of the Aztecs describing what would seem to be Chinese. There are other interesting oddities which include the possible Chinese anchors in the San Francisco Bay area.



Of course, dragons, like pyramids, and yeti-monster things seem to be something that runs through nearly all human cultures, from some unique psychological reason.

Of course, dragons, like pyramids, and yeti-monster things seem to be something that runs through nearly all human cultures, from some unique psychological reason.

Yes your right and it is a curious oddity that it is common throughout the world. However they look very much the same as the Chinese ones. European and Chinese are different in alot of respects. So it is just interesting that the Aztec and Chinese dragons have so many parallels.

The backbone of Menzies book, though, is the "Zheng He map", which has some rather major problems. For example, the map that Menzies has studied is not an original, instead it's a "copy" dating from the mid 1760's, done as a Mercator projection, quite unlike any Chinese maps that would have dated from 1421.

Second, the map has the notorious "Island of California" error, which was extremely common amongst European maps in the 1600's and 1700's.

Further, the Zheng He map makes use of European style reckonings of longitude.

It was most likely a novelty sold to a merchant during the late 1700's, based off of existing European maps of the world, not anything originial by Zheng He.

i never noticed that before California is an island on the map

My guess is they would have had a fair time against the Japanese or the Chinese but the Europeans would have been harder for them, being more technologically and industrially developed.

...but as democracy develops in Europe and spreads to Japan, it is likly that those Chinese in the South Easten US will pick it up and revolt against the more opressive native government.

The whole reason for China's technological step back after the 1600s can mostly be attributed to the ming dynasties isolation policies. You must keep in mind that China was still the cultural and economic giant up untill that point. To say that China would activily colonize the america's is to imply that would abandon those policies and still be very active in the technological race.

The notion of democracy spreading to Japan is one obviously seated in current knowledge of world politics without taking effort looking back as why Japan is a democracy in the first place. I seem to remember they were blasted into it. Not even to mention the fact wether or not China would be a communist state in the first place.

In other words...discussing alternate history is fun, but this one is just too difficult to predict.

Yes your right and it is a curious oddity that it is common throughout the world. However they look very much the same as the Chinese ones. European and Chinese are different in alot of respects. So it is just interesting that the Aztec and Chinese dragons have so many parallels.

I would think that the Europeans are the odd ones in this regard. Dragons are essentially snakes and therefor resemble them in many ways. Why Europeans decided to make them as they are today is the bigger mystery in my view.

The whole reason for China's technological step back after the 1600s can mostly be attributed to the ming dynasties isolation policies. You must keep in mind that China was still the cultural and economic giant up untill that point. To say that China would activily colonize the america's is to imply that would abandon those policies and still be very active in the technological race.

The notion of democracy spreading to Japan is one obviously seated in current knowledge of world politics without taking effort looking back as why Japan is a democracy in the first place. I seem to remember they were blasted into it. Not even to mention the fact wether or not China would be a communist state in the first place.

In other words...discussing alternate history is fun, but this one is just too difficult to predict.

yea China became isolationist AFTER Cheng Zhu IIRC so what if someone else had taken power after him and abandoned isolationism

Everything from 1500 to now would be completely diferent.

And I mean completely diferent. I am pretty sure the industrial revolution wouldnt happen in Europe, and probabily would happen in China. Then, China would probabily rule all over the world just like the English did, and nowadays Europe would probabily be trying to breach through just like the 3rd world countries of nowadays like Vietnam and India are trying to do.

Australia probabily wouldnt be english colonized too.

Also, Christianity wouldnt have developed in the Americas, which would take a huge toll on the Roman Catholic Church. I´m pretty sure the RCC would be dead by now, and the only thing remaining would be protestants.

Shit, so many things would be diferent.

well aparently China discovered the Americas c1421 and Columbus in 1492 that would give the Chinese about 71 years to colonize the Americas...i think that would be enough time to set up colonies and overseas empires...

and in a way Columbus really would have found Asia :p

http://www.amazon.com/Years-Rice-Salt-Stanley-Robinson/dp/0553580078/

its doubtful to me that the chinese claim that that map is a copy of a chinese map from 1463 is true. it contains too many details that resulted from many years of exploration by european powers

the island of california for example. the st lawrence river in the north east. the coast of alaska in the north west. the skinny isthmus of panama.

i just dont see how anyone could get those details on one voyage to the western hemisphere, and especially not make the european mistake of thinking california was an island.

http://www.amazon.com/Years-Rice-Salt-Stanley-Robinson/dp/0553580078/

Good Book.

China would have probably gotten their @$$es kicked by the Europeans when they came along...

Either way the Americas will have been dominated by Europe.

China would have probably gotten their @$$es kicked by the Europeans when they came along...

Either way the Americas will have been dominated by Europe.

how so?

IIRC the chinese had gunpowder once they came into contact with Europeans and saw how effective firearms were, i believe that they would have acquired them and used guns themselves possibly even improving on the initial designs and creating new firearms.

http://www.amazon.com/Years-Rice-Salt-Stanley-Robinson/dp/0553580078/

That looks like an extremely interesting read, i'll check it out

how so?

IIRC the chinese had gunpowder once they came into contact with Europeans and saw how effective firearms were, i believe that they would have acquired them and used guns themselves possibly even improving on the initial designs and creating new firearms.

If memory serves me, the Chinese already had gunpowder based weapons, although they were cumbersome mini-cannons that you had to mount on walls. Most of it was gunpowder based rockets although I think they were just used for signaling and causing confusion.

The thing is, they didn't mass manufacture the stuff, so there's the issue of matching firepower on a volume basis.

Although if you look at the old Chinese designs for sailing ships, they pretty much outclassed anything Columbus could have fielded.

The backbone of Menzies book, though, is the "Zheng He map", which has some rather major problems. For example, the map that Menzies has studied is not an original, instead it's a "copy" dating from the mid 1760's, done as a Mercator projection, quite unlike any Chinese maps that would have dated from 1421.

Second, the map has the notorious "Island of California" error, which was extremely common amongst European maps in the 1600's and 1700's.

Further, the Zheng He map makes use of European style reckonings of longitude.

It was most likely a novelty sold to a merchant during the late 1700's, based off of existing European maps of the world, not anything originial by Zheng He.
Yeah, I have a lot of complaints about this as well...it's an interesting theory but it's based on an incorrect assumption.

Had China indeed decided to settle America, it would have started out with the Southeast. Places like Florida and the Bahamas would be settled by the Chinese, with them pushing upwards into the East Coast and central United States. Japan might have caught on, and possible sent a few ships there too, and since they would want to stick to coasts, catch on to Alaska, Western Canada, and possible Northwestern United States.

When Columbus comes along to land in the Bahamas, what does he see? China. Knowing his Asian geography well, he concludes that India (which was what he was originally looking for) must be to the South - instead, when he arrives upon the shores of South America, he sees cities (of gold) and finds out that it, in fact, is not India but something different. This would have prompted an immediate rush for South America by the English and Spanish. The results of such a war, are to say in the least, unpredictable, further complicated by the fact that France will get involved too.

China, at this point, if they are truly imperialistic, will see the promise of America, and invest in the ventures - bigger ships will be designed, and sailing across the ocean directly will be possible. The West Coast will be colonized, as might Mexico. They will contact the Japanese in modern day Oregon - whether they decide to wage war or prosper in peace is unpredictable, but it would most likely result in a stalemated position that neither can win on - Japan most likely also investing in a bigger navy. China might settle the MidWest - thus creating a unified huge colony in the Americas. Japan will have settled further into Canada, possible even most of it. The Japanese-Chinese situation, provided non gain an advantage in battle, would be approximately as the US is with Canada right now, with a few changes.

At this point in South America, lands would be taken, claims finalized, wars ended - or not. As England, France, and Spain make a grab for it, South America is split in three parts, while the Native Americans there are shun aside with no difficulty due to superior technology. The Caribbean and Mexico will also be fought over. What will probably happen (due to distance from main country) Central America will go to England, North and East South America by France, South and West by Spain. In this arrangement, England will have made direct contact in Northern Mexico with China - and earlier probably too in the Caribbean, as well as France and Spain. Hostilities may start, the conquest of the beautiful lands of America, and yet the paradise of the Caribbean. China and the European powers may go to war, and Japan could join in too.

At this point, India will have heard of the tales of the Americas - whether by trade from Europe or China. They may try to invest in America too by colonizing (probably South America). This will spark further war with France, Spain, or England as those lands are already 'claimed' by them. Now what do we have? A possible alliance of England, Spain, and France vs. China, Japan, and India. Colony vs. Colony. As war tears apart the Americas, the Arabs have lost their role as the profitable go-between between Europe and India and China in the great trade network. As their economy stagnates, they too hear of the great riches of the Americas...

At that point, they could do two things.

1. Take advantage of weakened Europe and attack and reclaim long lost lands. Spain would be especially vulnerable, then France. England would still be some way off, but the Arabs invading Europe would spark a great political inflammation that could strike back at the British. If the Arabs succeed, if only a little, the Baltic states will have hordes of fleeing people coming into their lands, as well as Russia. This in turn might have them attack the Arabs, sparking a great war over Europe while European colonies in the Americas become main countries. If they do not succeed fully, the plan will be destabilizing enough to form war itself in Europe - the Holy Roman Empire will get involved, the Baltic states and Russia - Scandinavia could get in, especially since Japan/China could be so expansionist as to go into Greenland and Iceland which would definitely pull in Scandinavia. The war for Europe begins...

2. Set out for the Americas themselves. They could take two routes - by India and China, or around Africa.

India/China - At this point, there is a possibility that the Arabs will discover Indonesia, and upon exploring further, Australia. The hostile deserts in Australia are no different then in their home, and indeed could be welcoming. Australia, New Zealand - Natives there are easily taken care of, Indonesia converted, and sure enough, Arabia is prospering once more. They are now both the go-between and the actual place where the spices, stuff, etc. is coming from.

Africa - As they sail down the African coasts, they will have to camp or resupply on the coasts once in a while. The lands could spark imperialistic policies in Arabia and prompt them to colonize Southern and Eastern Africa - just as say England, France, and Spain may try in doing so, besides the Americas. As usual, hostilites could start, and war over Africa begins.

In the event that England tries to colonize India, the results are unpredictable. If they succeed, they wipe out a potential enemy in the Americas - but they also bring the wrath of China upon them, and if the war in Africa is bloody, Arabia from the south (Australia, Indonesia). With revolutions, China, and Arabia coming in one of hundreds of their colonies, when their colonies in Africa and the Americas are locked in war, as well as the main country in Europe (in case things do spring up) holding India will be near impossible. Most likely through a series of civil wars, India will return to Indian hands - however, China could potentially turn traitor and take over India, maybe along with Arabia. One less superpower to deal with, eh?


In Europe, England, France, and Spain are becoming powerful imperialistic powers - while the rest stand aside. Tensions rise, anger boils, and hostilites begin. At this point, Russia will have emerged from Hun rule, as well as the Baltic states. The Holy Roman Empire is preparing for war, and things go downhill from there. Alliances are made against the superpowers in central Europe, while in East Europe an alliance of Baltic States that Scandinavia joins. The battle for Europe has just begun.

Very detailed explanation Futuris.

I don't think China would have colonized America at all. From what I can tell they knew about Indonesia for a long time and never bothered to colonize it.

I think the better what if is this: According to Guns Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond China could have been in the industrial revolution in either the 13th or 14th centuries but the progress got destroyed by a despot. Now how would that have affected history?

Had China indeed decided to settle America, it would have started out with the Southeast. Places like Florida and the Bahamas would be settled by the Chinese, with them pushing upwards into the East Coast and central United States. Japan might have caught on, and possible sent a few ships there too, and since they would want to stick to coasts, catch on to Alaska, Western Canada, and possible Northwestern United States.

When Columbus comes along to land in the Bahamas, what does he see? China. Knowing his Asian geography well, he concludes that India (which was what he was originally looking for) must be to the South - instead, when he arrives upon the shores of South America, he sees cities (of gold) and finds out that it, in fact, is not India but something different. This would have prompted an immediate rush for South America by the English and Spanish. The results of such a war, are to say in the least, unpredictable, further complicated by the fact that France will get involved too.

China, at this point, if they are truly imperialistic, will see the promise of America, and invest in the ventures - bigger ships will be designed, and sailing across the ocean directly will be possible. The West Coast will be colonized, as might Mexico. They will contact the Japanese in modern day Oregon - whether they decide to wage war or prosper in peace is unpredictable, but it would most likely result in a stalemated position that neither can win on - Japan most likely also investing in a bigger navy. China might settle the MidWest - thus creating a unified huge colony in the Americas. Japan will have settled further into Canada, possible even most of it. The Japanese-Chinese situation, provided non gain an advantage in battle, would be approximately as the US is with Canada right now, with a few changes.

At this point in South America, lands would be taken, claims finalized, wars ended - or not. As England, France, and Spain make a grab for it, South America is split in three parts, while the Native Americans there are shun aside with no difficulty due to superior technology. The Caribbean and Mexico will also be fought over. What will probably happen (due to distance from main country) Central America will go to England, North and East South America by France, South and West by Spain. In this arrangement, England will have made direct contact in Northern Mexico with China - and earlier probably too in the Caribbean, as well as France and Spain. Hostilities may start, the conquest of the beautiful lands of America, and yet the paradise of the Caribbean. China and the European powers may go to war, and Japan could join in too.

At this point, India will have heard of the tales of the Americas - whether by trade from Europe or China. They may try to invest in America too by colonizing (probably South America). This will spark further war with France, Spain, or England as those lands are already 'claimed' by them. Now what do we have? A possible alliance of England, Spain, and France vs. China, Japan, and India. Colony vs. Colony. As war tears apart the Americas, the Arabs have lost their role as the profitable go-between between Europe and India and China in the great trade network. As their economy stagnates, they too hear of the great riches of the Americas...

At that point, they could do two things.

1. Take advantage of weakened Europe and attack and reclaim long lost lands. Spain would be especially vulnerable, then France. England would still be some way off, but the Arabs invading Europe would spark a great political inflammation that could strike back at the British. If the Arabs succeed, if only a little, the Baltic states will have hordes of fleeing people coming into their lands, as well as Russia. This in turn might have them attack the Arabs, sparking a great war over Europe while European colonies in the Americas become main countries. If they do not succeed fully, the plan will be destabilizing enough to form war itself in Europe - the Holy Roman Empire will get involved, the Baltic states and Russia - Scandinavia could get in, especially since Japan/China could be so expansionist as to go into Greenland and Iceland which would definitely pull in Scandinavia. The war for Europe begins...

2. Set out for the Americas themselves. They could take two routes - by India and China, or around Africa.

India/China - At this point, there is a possibility that the Arabs will discover Indonesia, and upon exploring further, Australia. The hostile deserts in Australia are no different then in their home, and indeed could be welcoming. Australia, New Zealand - Natives there are easily taken care of, Indonesia converted, and sure enough, Arabia is prospering once more. They are now both the go-between and the actual place where the spices, stuff, etc. is coming from.

Africa - As they sail down the African coasts, they will have to camp or resupply on the coasts once in a while. The lands could spark imperialistic policies in Arabia and prompt them to colonize Southern and Eastern Africa - just as say England, France, and Spain may try in doing so, besides the Americas. As usual, hostilites could start, and war over Africa begins.

In the event that England tries to colonize India, the results are unpredictable. If they succeed, they wipe out a potential enemy in the Americas - but they also bring the wrath of China upon them, and if the war in Africa is bloody, Arabia from the south (Australia, Indonesia). With revolutions, China, and Arabia coming in one of hundreds of their colonies, when their colonies in Africa and the Americas are locked in war, as well as the main country in Europe (in case things do spring up) holding India will be near impossible. Most likely through a series of civil wars, India will return to Indian hands - however, China could potentially turn traitor and take over India, maybe along with Arabia. One less superpower to deal with, eh?


In Europe, England, France, and Spain are becoming powerful imperialistic powers - while the rest stand aside. Tensions rise, anger boils, and hostilites begin. At this point, Russia will have emerged from Hun rule, as well as the Baltic states. The Holy Roman Empire is preparing for war, and things go downhill from there. Alliances are made against the superpowers in central Europe, while in East Europe an alliance of Baltic States that Scandinavia joins. The battle for Europe has just begun.

very detailed

however I think that you have it wrong when you say that India would be involved in colonization because unlike Spain, France, Portugal, England, China and possibly Japan at the time India was NOT a unified nation. They didn't have any unified national purpose to go to "the New World"

also I think that missionaries and the Protestant and Catholic Church would have taken a much bigger role even in Chinese colonies