NationStates Jolt Archive

Well, it's that time again, folks.

Jet Li finished his swan song, Fearless, and he's done doing action movies. Jackie Chan has started using CGI and stunt doubles, thereby taking away a huge part of why people go to see Jackie Chan movies: he did his own stunts, and they were friggin crazy.


Of course, it started with Bruce Lee. But he died. His fighting style was Jeet Kun Do, or "The Intercepting Fist" - a no-bullshit martial art he developed after mastering various other forms from around the world. It involves a lot of asskicking, and some more asskicking. No flourishing moves, no Tai Chi movements, and no stances (see: Wang Chun) that I know of. It's just straight-up "If you try to hit me with something, I'm going to severely injure whatever that thing might be, before it can get to me." - very effective, but not very good for one-on-one fights, which is why in his most popular film, Enter The Dragon, the majority of his action was done while beating down on an endless horde of enemies, many of which he took down with one strike.


From there, we hit a weird period where pretty much all we had was random Chinese kung-fu with bad dubbing. Personally, I'm still a fan of this sort of movie, if just for the camp (see: Master of the Flying Guillotine), but it's not exactly fucking enlightening content, what with the poorly done camerawork, almost nonexistant storylines, and overall bad acting.


Then came the Padawan - Jackie Chan. They first tried marketing him as the next Bruce Lee, because at that point we were still grieving and needed something to fill the hole in our hearts (yeah, it was that bad). He was good - very flashy, good for the camera, but not at all like Bruce Lee. His demeanor was far too nice, he wasn't threatening or majestic at all, especially when compared to how Bruce would often stare down an enemy after just having kicked the ass of the guy's friends easily. He didn't have that energy, the spark - on top of that, he had none of the spirituality. Bruce was known for his philosophy and his efforts to bring Eastern martial arts to the Western world, and caught quite a bit of flack from his Eastern brothers for doing so.

Eventually they figured out that Jackie just could not be Bruce Lee, so they allowed him to do what it turns out he does best: goof off and do weird styles of fighting that are, in all likelihood entirely useless for actual combat, but look very good for the camera and give you that kind of "oooh, ahhh" sensation when you see him show off. So for roughly thirty years, that's been Chan's schtick - kicking ass with slapstick comedy added in.


Then, in the mid-eighties: a prodigy. Jet Li bounds into the world of martial arts movies, leaving everyone curious about how good he can really be. They soon found out, with his Chinese period movies made in the early nineties. With the making of Twin Warriors, The Legend, The Legend 2, Fist of Legend, and his role in Once Upon a Time In China, he blew the competition away in every aspect - even acting, which up to this point wasn't really considered a requirement for a martial arts star, was very well done. This probably had to do with the fact that his characters were very much like his own personality - they were all pretty much the same kind of hero: the likeable, chivalrous, obedient and respectful kung-fu fighter who eventually found a purpose and went for it. Be it revenge, love, or patriotism, the hero had a purpose, and it fit him very well.

Jet Li revived the West's view on kung fu movies, reminding everyone that they can be viable dramas as well as actions or comedies. While for the most part he used traditional kung-fu, he occasionally would do his own version of what Bruce Lee showed the world when he created Jeet Kun Do, as seen in Fist of Legend. With his best performances, Li was able to educate the audience on the background of the martial arts he used, commanding great respect from most if not every kung-fu enthusiast, Eastern or Western.

With some of his recent films, however, Li has dropped the ball somewhat. Cradle 2 The Grave, Romeo Must Die, The One - movies with good action, but lacking in every other aspect we knew him to excel at. His last two - Hero and Fearless, bring him back to period China, the environment in which his character shines no matter what.

Sidenote: While it's true that Li had good movies that weren't set in period China, i.e. Black Mask, The Enforcer, The Defender, and a couple others, the majority of his skill shown brightest when surrounded by hut houses, clothed in white robes.


There have been others down the line - Steven Segal, Chow Yun Fat, and many more that have come and gone - but, save for Chow Yun Fat's role in Crouching Tiger, they have been sorely disappointing, often filled with more guns than martial arts, and severely lacking in every quality Jet Li was serving up effortlessly.

I'd also like to point out that I'm purposely leaving out the sorry excuse of an actor, Jean-Claude Van Damm and all his clones. He's lucky his pitiful name even got mentioned in the same post as Jet Li's.

Same goes for Chuck.

And now, here we are, with a retired Jet Li and an aging Jackie Chan - what are we left with?

Well, we have some promise from Tony Jaa, star of Ong-Bak - he is essentially what they wanted Jackie Chan to be when he first came out: a Bruce Lee replacement that can do his own crazy stunts. His acting is pretty much nonexistant, however, so to take a step down from what Li was giving us is a jagged little pill that's difficult to swallow.

There's also a glimmer of hope from Donnie Yen (http://www.donnieyen.com/films.htm), who's starred in a few movies with Jet Li and managed not to be completely outdone. His acting is far superior to Jaa's, and let's face it, he's nicer to look at, which is a huge requirement for being America's Next Top Martial Arts Moviestar (tm).

Unfortunately, there's not much else on the menu at the moment. Western cinema is starving for a new Jet Li - a charismatic, talented martial artist that can give us back that "wow" feeling we've been dulled to nowadays. Someone we can point to and say "This guy is taking the baton and representing Martials Arts to the West in the best ways possible".


I hope we get one soon, because I needs me some good Martial Arts movies.

Any thoughts or votes on who you think will be the next one?

I used to love Jackie Chan and his stunts, his movies always made me laugh. For a few years now, though, he just hasn't been up to it - he's getting old. I think Chow Yun Fat has potential - he was good in Crouching Tiger, and so long as he cuts out this Bulletproof Monk crap (you can't have a martial arts film with Sean William Scott.) he might go a fair way.
But. No one can replace Bruce Lee. Ever.

I used to love Jackie Chan and his stunts, his movies always made me laugh. For a few years now, though, he just hasn't been up to it - he's getting old. I think Chow Yun Fat has potential - he was good in Crouching Tiger, and so long as he cuts out this Bulletproof Monk crap (you can't have a martial arts film with Sean William Scott.) he might go a fair way.
But. No one can replace Bruce Lee. Ever.

This is true, but I never really liked Chow Yun Fat anyway. I think Crouching Tiger was his best, and even then it was most likely because the rest of the cast was great as well.

Ever see the Om-bak guy?

bring back Chuck Norris! NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is true, but I never really liked Chow Yun Fat anyway. I think Crouching Tiger was his best, and even then it was most likely because the rest of the cast was great as well.

Chow Yun Fat isn't bad. But he can't do those American movies like Jackie Chan - for example, Bulletproof Monk against Shanghai Noon. I know which one I'd choose.
It's sad that Jet Li has done his swan song. He was very, very good.

Unleashed fucking ruled.

Tony Jaa is enough to tide me over until someone better comes along.

He's no Bruce Lee, but he'll do for now. *nods*

Ever see the Om-bak guy?

I've been told he's good, completely cgi-free action. Tony Jaa's his name.

Fictional heroes are best. Never learn that they're beating their wives or molesting kids. Idolizing real folks is setting yourself up for disappointment.

Tony Jaa, just because we dont have any good options.

But its a shame that there arent many good and charismatic martial arts fighters out there.

Ever see the Om-bak guy?

Yeah, and I mentioned him in my OP.

bring back Chuck Norris! NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mentioned him as well.

Chow Yun Fat isn't bad. But he can't do those American movies like Jackie Chan - for example, Bulletproof Monk against Shanghai Noon. I know which one I'd choose.
It's sad that Jet Li has done his swan song. He was very, very good.

Indeed, Li was the best we had since Bruce left us.

I've seen Chow Yun Fat do too many movies like Hard Boiled, guns blazing, to take him seriously as a martial artist anymore.

Unleashed fucking ruled.

Yeah, it did.

Tony Jaa is enough to tide me over until someone better comes along.

He's no Bruce Lee, but he'll do for now. *nods*

Meh. I need charisma - I need to believe there's some kind of a purpose behind the asskicking - I need to get behind my martial arts hero 100% and hope he wins. Li gave us that, but Jaa is all show and no purpose.

I've been told he's good, completely cgi-free action. Tony Jaa's his name.

He's alright. He doesn't have any kind of on-screen magic about him, though.

Fictional heroes are best. Never learn that they're beating their wives or molesting kids. Idolizing real folks is setting yourself up for disappointment.

*shrugs* Li is a good person, as far as I know. He made it very easy to root for his characters - most notably, Chen Zhen from Fist of Legend, Wong Fei-Hung from Once Upon a Time In China, and Fong Sai-Yuk from The Legend - he fits those characters very well. Even in interviews, he's all smiles and laughter.

Tony Jaa, just because we dont have any good options.

But its a shame that there arent many good and charismatic martial arts fighters out there.

Indeed, but I really think Donnie Yen can be good if he lands a few more roles in American martial arts movies.

I think you're being a little hard on Chan. He's a comedic actor, no shame in that. Take most comedic actors (whichever you like) and try and make them action heroes and they probably wouldn't do it that well, and vice versa to be honest. It's not necessarily lesser, just a different genre.

Tony Jaa's pretty good. Then again, I do like the comedic nature of Jackie Chan movies.

Ever see the Om-bak guy?

I'm pretty sure his name is Tony Jaa one sec....yep thats his name

damn beaten to it

John Claude baby! :D

"My momma named me Chance...because she gave me one."

Bloodsport is probably my favorite martial arts movie. Although Twin Warriors, and the original Drunken Master were great.

Tony Jaa is an amazing martial artist and I've seen and loved both of his movies.

However, he doesn't really have the personality of either Jacki Chan or Bruce Li.

Still... he's pretty damn cool.

Tony Jaa's damn good. Doesn't have much of a screen presence at the moment, but hopefully that'll come.
I can't believe you ppl are still talking about 'Ong-Bak'.
Have you never seen 'Tom Yum Goong'?
Here's one of the best scenes from it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8jYp6U3YZs

Muay Thai vs Capoiera

Here's also a cool scene:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bICnpAUcTdA

silly, but cool. Unfortunately it doesn't show the very end where he runs up a window to escape a quad bike.

Of course you poor sods in US might never get to see 'Tom Yum Goong'. It came out here nearly two years ago. Miramax bought the international rights but said they needed to change it for the US audience (apparently you're not bright enough to understand a plot of, 'Good man has elephant, bad man steals elephant, good man goes to Australia to rescue elephant and kicks everyone's ass in doing so') and, afaik, have still yet to release it.
You can buy the DVD of it, but it won't have English subtitles (even though I watched it with on the big screen) - another caveat from Miramax no doubt.
I read somewhere that Tony Jaa went to hollywood and was offered a movie (rush hour 3 or something like that) but turned it down to go back to Thailand and make a movie there. My guess is that Miramax were holding 'Tom Yum Goong' to show on the back of that movie, but now it's not going to be made, they won't release TYG.
So the only way you're going to see it is probably through the magic of *cough*bittorrent*cough*.

My favourite is still the chase scene in Ong Bak:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo29u8rhoSo

Funiest scene is 3 minutes in. "Knives for sale!"

I think you're being a little hard on Chan. He's a comedic actor, no shame in that. Take most comedic actors (whichever you like) and try and make them action heroes and they probably wouldn't do it that well, and vice versa to be honest. It's not necessarily lesser, just a different genre.

True, he's a comedic actor, but he also tries being a legitimate martial artist - while he may be good with the stances and styles, I doubt his ability to fight.

I'm pretty sure his name is Tony Jaa one sec....yep thats his name

damn beaten to it

I'm fairly certain that's just his American name. Much like Jet Li is not his actual birth name.

John Claude baby! :D

"My momma named me Chance...because she gave me one."

Bloodsport is probably my favorite martial arts movie. Although Twin Warriors, and the original Drunken Master were great.

I like Bloodsport like I like "Best of the Best" - they're terrible movies, but fun to watch and make fun of. Guilty pleasures.

Tony Jaa is an amazing martial artist and I've seen and loved both of his movies.

However, he doesn't really have the personality of either Jacki Chan or Bruce Li.

Still... he's pretty damn cool.

Granted, he's a good martial artist, but like you said he doesn't have the personality we're used to.

Tony Jaa's damn good. Doesn't have much of a screen presence at the moment, but hopefully that'll come.
I can't believe you ppl are still talking about 'Ong-Bak'.
Have you never seen 'Tom Yum Goong'?
Here's one of the best scenes from it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8jYp6U3YZs

Muay Thai vs Capoiera

Here's also a cool scene:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bICnpAUcTdA

silly, but cool. Unfortunately it doesn't show the very end where he runs up a window to escape a quad bike.

Of course you poor sods in US might never get to see 'Tom Yum Goong'. It came out here nearly two years ago. Miramax bought the international rights but said they needed to change it for the US audience (apparently you're not bright enough to understand a plot of, 'Good man has elephant, bad man steals elephant, good man goes to Australia to rescue elephant and kicks everyone's ass in doing so') and, afaik, have still yet to release it.
You can buy the DVD of it, but it won't have English subtitles (even though I watched it with on the big screen) - another caveat from Miramax no doubt.
I read somewhere that Tony Jaa went to hollywood and was offered a movie (rush hour 3 or something like that) but turned it down to go back to Thailand and make a movie there. My guess is that Miramax were holding 'Tom Yum Goong' to show on the back of that movie, but now it's not going to be made, they won't release TYG.
So the only way you're going to see it is probably through the magic of *cough*bittorrent*cough*.

My favourite is still the chase scene in Ong Bak:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo29u8rhoSo

Funiest scene is 3 minutes in. "Knives for sale!"

I'm pretty sure we already got that movie. Not sure what it's called, though. The thing about it is, it's got pretty much the same plot as Ong Bak - dude took something from his village, now he tears up asses getting it back. Very redundant, very shallow.

I think you're being a little hard on Chan. He's a comedic actor, no shame in that. Take most comedic actors (whichever you like) and try and make them action heroes and they probably wouldn't do it that well, and vice versa to be honest. It's not necessarily lesser, just a different genre.

He's more hardcore in some of his Hong Kong stuff.

Eventually they figured out that Jackie just could not be Bruce Lee, so they allowed him to do what it turns out he does best: goof off and do weird styles of fighting that are, in all likelihood entirely useless for actual combat,

Other than The Legend of Drunken Master.
There's a certain amount of discretion that needs to be applied when dealing with deadly arts, you know. :)

I say we ressurect Bruce Lee.

He's more hardcore in some of his Hong Kong stuff.

Seconded.

He's more hardcore in some of his Hong Kong stuff.

As hardcore as he is, he's still comedic compared to what Jet Li can do.

Other than The Legend of Drunken Master.
There's a certain amount of discretion that needs to be applied when dealing with deadly arts, you know. :)

Meh. He spat fire in that movie. Kinda disappointed me they went that goofy with it.

Stephen Chow

Donnie Yen still packs a punch.

His final fight scene in the recent The Seven Swords is the only reason to see the movie.

Stephen Chow

Again, he's comedic. While I like his movies, they seem overrun with CGI, so I can't take him seriously as a martial artist hero.

Silly boys.

The next generation of awesome martial artists are already (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001041/) here (http://www.ropeofsilicon.com/profile.php?id=1882).

And have been for a while. (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000706/)

Silly boys.

The next generation of awesome martial artists are already (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001041/) here (http://www.ropeofsilicon.com/profile.php?id=1882).

And have been for a while. (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000706/)

Granted, I forgot about the female martial arts stars, but for personal reason:

I can't identify with them. Therefore, they can't be my martial arts hero.

Nationally speaking (In the USA), they don't draw as many people to the box office, so it's hard for them to qualify.


EDIT: oh and, Zhang: I fucking hate her.

Pretty much every movie she's been in, she's either had sex or gotten raped (multiple times, sometimes) - in Geisha, she was an outright whore. She's very one-dimensional, I don't like her at all.

Jackie Chan came from the Chinese Opera schools where he learned how to choreograph fights.

The Om Bak guy...the first film was fekkn brilliant...no wire work.

His second...yep...wire work. Pity that.

Jackie Chan came from the Chinese Opera schools where he learned how to choreograph fights.

The Om Bak guy...the first film was fekkn brilliant...no wire work.

His second...yep...wire work. Pity that.

It's ONG Bak. God damn.

It's ONG Bak. God damn.

:D

Granted, I forgot about the female martial arts stars, but for personal reason:

I can't identify with them. Therefore, they can't be my martial arts hero.

Nationally speaking (In the USA), they don't draw as many people to the box office, so it's hard for them to qualify.


EDIT: oh and, Zhang: I fucking hate her.

Pretty much every movie she's been in, she's either had sex or gotten raped (multiple times, sometimes) - in Geisha, she was an outright whore. She's very one-dimensional, I don't like her at all.

Well, the way I look at it, I like to have both genders on screen. One to identify with, and the other to have an awesome body to admire for a few hours.

Did she have sex in The Road Home? I don't remember her doing so. And I thought that scene in House of Flying Daggers, when she pretends to be blind and has to grope that guy in order to 'see' him, was more comedic than erotic.

Tony Jaa seems to have some of the best parts of Bruce Lee, Jet Li, and Jackie Chan (skill-wise), with the combined charisma of Jean-Claude Van Damme and Steven Segal (which is to say, none).



:(

Tony Jaa seems to have some of the best parts of Bruce Lee, Jet Li, and Jackie Chan (skill-wise), with the combined charisma of Jean-Claude Van Damme and Steven Segal (which is to say, none).



:(

How could you diss the Muscles from Brussels? :mad: LOL

i think Bruce Lee's son showed some promise. But died before really making it...

oh and about jackie chan.

I recommend "meal on wheels". That final fight is by far one of the best ever.

Supposedly he's a popular singer is south east asia :confused:

personally i also like Sammo Hung. Especially since he breaks the expected image yet can still kick ass!

oh and i like stephen chow. ok he won't be one of the great martial artists, but he's self taught. got to respect him for that at least

Supposedly he's a popular singer is south east asia :confused:

:eek:

Oh my agod.

Well, the way I look at it, I like to have both genders on screen. One to identify with, and the other to have an awesome body to admire for a few hours.

Did she have sex in The Road Home? I don't remember her doing so. And I thought that scene in House of Flying Daggers, when she pretends to be blind and has to grope that guy in order to 'see' him, was more comedic than erotic.

Haven't seen "The Road Home". I was exaggerating when I said "every movie" - and I'm pretty sure she did have sex in Flying Daggers at one point or another. Or at least got molested a few times. Regardless, it qualifies to me. :p

And yeah, I like having both genders on-screen as well, but I can't identify with the female martial artists as well, and tend to not be as interested in their movies because of it. It's like if I can't support the personality of the front-man of a band, then I can't like the band very much.

Tony Jaa seems to have some of the best parts of Bruce Lee, Jet Li, and Jackie Chan (skill-wise), with the combined charisma of Jean-Claude Van Damme and Steven Segal (which is to say, none).



:(

Tony's alright. But again, he has no personality. None that he's shown, anyway. And he has yet to star in a movie that has anything more than random asskicking in it. I like to have purpose and meaning behind my action heroes.

personally i also like Sammo Hung. Especially since he breaks the expected image yet can still kick ass!

oh and i like stephen chow. ok he won't be one of the great martial artists, but he's self taught. got to respect him for that at least

Sammo's alright, but I "meh" whenever I think of him. Nothing about him really stands out to me - that, and he was a retard in Project A, so that's the image I keep getting when I think of him.

I do respect Chow, but I just don't think he'll be the type we need to fill the hole left by Jet Li.

Chow Yun Fat doesn't even know martial arts, if I remember correctly from a Crouching Tiger interview. He just memorized choreography. I think he's a great actor and Crouching Tiger was just beautiful, but I don't place him in the same category as Jet Li - apples and oranges. Chow Yun Fat is more like a western action/drama star.

That said, I just have to say that that chick in Crouching Tiger was fucking hot.

Chow Yun Fat doesn't even know martial arts, if I remember correctly from a Crouching Tiger interview. He just memorized choreography. I think he's a great actor and Crouching Tiger was just beautiful, but I don't place him in the same category as Jet Li - apples and oranges. Chow Yun Fat is more like a western action/drama star.

That said, I just have to say that that chick in Crouching Tiger was fucking hot.

Yeah she's Zhang. She's the whore from Hero, Crouching Tiger, Flying Daggers, and Geisha.


EDIT: Oh and the comparison of Chow Yun Fat to Jet Li is apples to fruit of the gods. Nowhere near eachother.

Tony's alright. But again, he has no personality. None that he's shown, anyway.


I keep seeing this... people say Tony Jaa has no screen personality, no charisma... I can't help but think it is a matter of not speaking English. A perceived lack, rather than a real one.


And he has yet to star in a movie that has anything more than random asskicking in it. I like to have purpose and meaning behind my action heroes.


Both Ong Bak and The Protector have purpose and meaning... just not necessarily purpose and meaning that fit a Hollyweird ideal. Retreiving your village god's head, or fulfilling the sacred promise of protection, of man to elephant, might not sell well in the West.

The Om Bak guy...the first film was fekkn brilliant...no wire work.

His second...yep...wire work. Pity that.

Where was the wirework in the second film? I can only think of one wired scene, and that's the one with the big wrestler... and, as far as I know, that scene is only wired in one place, and that was to create a 'thrown' effect.

Of course - there was actually 'wire' in the first movie, too... during the chase scene, one of the bike things is wired... not an actor, a whole vehicle.

EDIT: Oh and the comparison of Chow Yun Fat to Jet Li is apples to fruit of the gods. Nowhere near eachother.

No way. Chow Yun Fat is an excellent actor. Jet Li is an excellent martial artist. One is not better than the other.

If Sean Connery can become a master of a martial arts form, he would be the ultimate martial arts hero.

I keep seeing this... people say Tony Jaa has no screen personality, no charisma... I can't help but think it is a matter of not speaking English. A perceived lack, rather than a real one.



Both Ong Bak and The Protector have purpose and meaning... just not necessarily purpose and meaning that fit a Hollyweird ideal. Retreiving your village god's head, or fulfilling the sacred promise of protection, of man to elephant, might not sell well in the West.

Yes but it's the same thing both times. Something from his village is stolen, he goes and gets it back through kicking ass. I was mindboggled at how similar the storylines were, I thought "Surely this is just a sequel or a remake of the first movie" but no, it's just him playing the same shallow role twice.

I'm sure his lack of English skills is part of it, but I prefer the Jet Li movies where he's speaking Chinese. He still talks with an accent, and I'm fine with that, it doesn't affect how I feel about him at all. Tony Jaa just seems a bit plastic, like he's uncomfortable in the scenes were he's not ripping someone apart, doesn't know what to say or how to move confidently unless he's doing it mid-air on his way down to knee someone in the face.

They don't really develop his character at all, because there's not much to develop. In The Legend 2, Fong Sai Yuk had to rescue his mom from an assload of people part of a group that opposed his father's political movement. They coulda just shown him blowing through the army, kicking ass and taking names, breaking bones, getting to his mom and having the epic battle with him kicking ass the whole time, but this is how they did it:

He's standing at the beginning of a long alley, and his mom's strung up with ropes at the end in a wide open area. He looks at the army in front of him, standing in his way, and you can see the determination in his face - he's not even thinking about how he's going to get through, but he knows he will. He's got five or more swords strapped to his back. He puts on a black blindfold and approaches the alley.

An enemy or two separate from the group and attack him, being met quickly with two swords cutting them down. He barely stops walking, though still blinded. As he keeps walking, more and more enemies come at him, all of them taken out swiftly and skillfully - occasionally he'll drop the swords he's using and take out new ones, but he doesn't stop.

As if this scene wasn't fucking intense enough (he's giving them a chance to live by using a blindfold. If they don't attack him, they don't die), he finally gets to his mom, and the army's leader confronts him. He takes off the blindfold (because this one will not get a chance to stay alive, unlike the others) and they begin fighting.

Throughout the fight, the structure the mom is standing on, noose around her neck, is being shortened and cut down constantly - Sai Yuk is not only fighting to kill the guy, but he's fighting to keep his mom from being hung at the same time.

EEEEPIC. But not just epic, it's meaningful. It's got purpose. I can relate to this guy protecting his mom, such fucking determination, such relentlessness, yet he still spared those that did not attack him on his way to save his mom.


I love that shit!

Jaa has yet to impress me with anything CLOSE to that. Nothing he's done has made me feel any kind of serious emotion one way or the other.

No way. Chow Yun Fat is an excellent actor. Jet Li is an excellent martial artist. One is not better than the other.

Jet Li is both an excellent actor and an excellent martial artist.

Where was the wirework in the second film? I can only think of one wired scene, and that's the one with the big wrestler... and, as far as I know, that scene is only wired in one place, and that was to create a 'thrown' effect.

Of course - there was actually 'wire' in the first movie, too... during the chase scene, one of the bike things is wired... not an actor, a whole vehicle.

Well the adverts I saw were blatant wire work...hence I did not go to see the movie...I really REALLY hate wire work because 99.99999999% of it is piss.

Re the first movie...I did not realise there was any...or if there was I did not spot it...but wire work for inanimate objects is probably easier than for humans...

Well the adverts I saw were blatant wire work...hence I did not go to see the movie...I really REALLY hate wire work because 99.99999999% of it is piss.

Re the first movie...I did not realise there was any...or if there was I did not spot it...but wire work for inanimate objects is probably easier than for humans...

I've got nothing against wirework. As long as the action is good and the story is good, I don't care how they get it done. Bonus points for no wires, but no negatives for using them.

Well the adverts I saw were blatant wire work...hence I did not go to see the movie...I really REALLY hate wire work because 99.99999999% of it is piss.


I'm not sure we are talking about the same movie... I saw trailers for Protector, and there were no scenes using wirework in the trailer. The one scene I might have debated was Jaa running up the window - but having seen the behind-the-scenes... there are clearly no wires.

That's the thing about Tony Jaa... people say 'he must be using wires for...' whichever scene, because they can't believe someone can jump through that tiny gap, or leap over that car, or jump up and run on those guy's shoulders... he seems to getting hurt, by being too good.

I've got nothing against wirework. As long as the action is good and the story is good, I don't care how they get it done. Bonus points for no wires, but no negatives for using them.

I agree... A lot of what we are seeing is the modernisation of thousands of years of Epic storytelling. In the mythical tale, it is okay for disbelief to be suspended, and 'wirework' is just a means of facilitating that direction.

Fictional heroes are best. Never learn that they're beating their wives or molesting kids. Idolizing real folks is setting yourself up for disappointment.

Or hate Jews and gay guys.

Yes but it's the same thing both times. Something from his village is stolen, he goes and gets it back through kicking ass. I was mindboggled at how similar the storylines were, I thought "Surely this is just a sequel or a remake of the first movie" but no, it's just him playing the same shallow role twice.


This is ironic... you talk about Ong Bak being shallow, but you idealise a scene in which the entire premise can be rendered 'stop being mean to my mom'.


I'm sure his lack of English skills is part of it,


I think it's most of the problem. Non-english-speaking actors are always punished by the main western audiences. Hence, Jimi Mistry makes western movies, while Shh Rukh Khan wouldn't be recognised on the street.

...but I prefer the Jet Li movies where he's speaking Chinese.


Absolutely. He's not much of an actor in English. He's okay.


Tony Jaa just seems a bit plastic, like he's uncomfortable in the scenes were he's not ripping someone apart, doesn't know what to say or how to move confidently unless he's doing it mid-air on his way down to knee someone in the face.


Maybe he is uncomfortable. He's been a big element in only two movies, and there's a lot of pressure on him 'over there'.


EEEEPIC. But not just epic, it's meaningful. It's got purpose. I can relate to this guy protecting his mom, such fucking determination, such relentlessness, yet he still spared those that did not attack him on his way to save his mom.


What you are describing here - as I'm sure you are aware - is a film, not an actor. You are judging Tony Jaa on his acting ability... but your criteria are everything else.


Jaa has yet to impress me with anything CLOSE to that. Nothing he's done has made me feel any kind of serious emotion one way or the other.

The 4 minute one-shot up the staircase in Protector didn't impress you?

:eek:

Oh my agod.
He sung in the Chinese dubbing of Beauty and the Beast.

Tony Jaa FTW!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K06wDn3XsZE

I've got nothing against wirework. As long as the action is good and the story is good, I don't care how they get it done. Bonus points for no wires, but no negatives for using them.

If its done well...ala Matrix it works real well and is an impressive stunt...but too many are just rubbish and far too obvious...and it really irks me...its doing something on the cheap...and unprofessionally.

I'm not sure we are talking about the same movie... I saw trailers for Protector, and there were no scenes using wirework in the trailer. The one scene I might have debated was Jaa running up the window - but having seen the behind-the-scenes... there are clearly no wires.

Fair enough...I remember that when we saw the clip we all shouted out wirework LOL I saw the clip what...once or twice more on the telly...

That's the thing about Tony Jaa... people say 'he must be using wires for...' whichever scene, because they can't believe someone can jump through that tiny gap, or leap over that car, or jump up and run on those guy's shoulders... he seems to getting hurt, by being too good.

Thats what was so brilliant about the first movie...

My first thought on reading the thread title was Tony Jaa. to make it mainstream in the west he needs to produce english-speaking films like lots of other foreign speaking actors previously.

Donnie Yen still rocks and Michelle Yeoh and Ziyi Zhang always entertain. I loved House of Flying Daggers. Hero pissed me off....it was amazing to look at but I found it hard to find a scene with out any wirework in. I HATE excessive use of wires.

It is all about Chow Yun Fat! He is the only one who comes close to Jet Li!

It is all about Chow Yun Fat! He is the only one who comes close to Jet Li!

He's only off by about 50lbs :p

Donnie Yen still rocks and Michelle Yeoh and Ziyi Zhang always entertain. I loved House of Flying Daggers. Hero pissed me off....it was amazing to look at but I found it hard to find a scene with out any wirework in. I HATE excessive use of wires.
That's why I failed to see why Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon was so trumped.

That's why I failed to see why Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon was so trumped.

I fall asleep everytime I watch it. House of Flying Daggers was pretty good though, but Hero was pretty lame imo.

Unleashed is one of the best in a long time. I mean, come on, Morgan Freeman and Jet Li. *fugasm*

Granted, he's a good martial artist, but like you said he doesn't have the personality we're used to.

I'm pretty sure we already got that movie. Not sure what it's called, though. The thing about it is, it's got pretty much the same plot as Ong Bak - dude took something from his village, now he tears up asses getting it back. Very redundant, very shallow.
that's only because you don't understand Thai culture. There's three things that are more important to them than anything else in the entire world:
1. their religion
2. their elephants
3. their king

You mess with a man's elephant and honestly, the cops would most likely stand by and watch him beat you to death. Hell, they'd probably hold you down while he does it.

So to your eyes, it's a shallow story of, "meh...it's an elephant - what's the big deal?", but to the Thai it's a big deal. it's a FUCKING BIG DEAL.
Also, you mightn't understand what the big deal about the evil woman who stole the elephant Jaa faces down at the end.
Another huge - HUGE - Thai cultural thing was going on with her.

I fall asleep everytime I watch it. House of Flying Daggers was pretty good though, but Hero was pretty lame imo.
I'm glad I know one other person who feels the same way about 'Hero'. I couldn't see what was so great about it.
HoFD was ok, but a kinda odd ending. I thought there was going to be a huge fight scene, but it just finished.

I fall asleep everytime I watch it. House of Flying Daggers was pretty good though, but Hero was pretty lame imo.

Unleashed is one of the best in a long time. I mean, come on, Morgan Freeman and Jet Li. *fugasm*

I've never understood why 'Hero' gets such hate. I think too many people want it to be something it isn't. If you wanted violence, I guess, 'Hero' might disappoint, but that is largely because that isn't where it's heart is - like "Fearless", "Hero" is largely about the 'violence of the mind', and the use of the martial arts discipline to avoid physical conflict.

I guess it also might not help that the 'twist' in the story was given away in the advertising for the western release. (Never have I been so glad to be ahead of the curve, and see a film on import).

I saw Tony Jaa's Ong Bak and the Protector.

He's definitely got potential. In the first one, it is said that there were no CGI or ropes used. If that is true, then it makes the stunts very credibly amazing.

I keep seeing this... people say Tony Jaa has no screen personality, no charisma... I can't help but think it is a matter of not speaking English. A perceived lack, rather than a real one.

Plus, he is only 2 movies old. He definitely can enhance his persona in the coming ones. Not all actors start out great. They improve over time with experience and better directors and such.



Both Ong Bak and The Protector have purpose and meaning... just not necessarily purpose and meaning that fit a Hollyweird ideal. Retreiving your village god's head, or fulfilling the sacred promise of protection, of man to elephant, might not sell well in the West.

As an Indian, I could totally identify with the character. Perhaps the idea of sacredness and duty etc are irrelevant in modern west, but they still have relevance in large parts of traditional Asia.

I saw Tony Jaa's Ong Bak and the Protector.

He's definitely got potential. In the first one, it is said that there were no CGI or ropes used. If that is true, then it makes the stunts very credibly amazing.

I've seen footage of press release material... where Tony Jaa is recorded 'live' doing the types of stunts he does in the movies. What he does is remarkable, but 'possible'... although, I sure couldn't do it. :D

(Another film - French of all things - worth seeing for a similar kind of skill to that Jaa shows (although, not so much on the 'martial arts' side), is "District B13").

Plus, he is only 2 movies old. He definitely can enhance his persona in the coming ones. Not all actors start out great. They improve over time with experience and better directors and such.


Indeed... and a lot of people seem to be judging Jaa's ability as an actor based on the projects he has chosen, and how well they are produced, scripted, etc.

Tony Jaa has said he deals with issues he feels strongly about. That is going to keep him out of western cinema for a while anyway - at least, I hope so.



As an Indian, I could totally identify with the character. Perhaps the idea of sacredness and duty etc are irrelevant in modern west, but they still have relevance in large parts of traditional Asia.

"As an Indian"... That made me think. I've encountered this kind of reaction before. I know Indian movies aren't to everyone's taste, but western audiences are fundamentally opposed to 'foreign' movies. Japanese cinema is still only really 'acceptable' as material for remakes. And a film like "Asoka", which might arguably be one of the greatest 'heroic epic' genre movies ever made isn't even a dot on the radar.

I agree... A lot of what we are seeing is the modernisation of thousands of years of Epic storytelling. In the mythical tale, it is okay for disbelief to be suspended, and 'wirework' is just a means of facilitating that direction.

Indeed. As long as they don't overdo it like in Hero. I hate it when a movie gives off the impression that EVERYONE in China can walk on water and fly at will.

Or hate Jews and gay guys.

I don't idolize Mel Gibson. *zing!*

This is ironic... you talk about Ong Bak being shallow, but you idealise a scene in which the entire premise can be rendered 'stop being mean to my mom'.

Sure, if you wanna simplify it. But it's not really that simple. The guy has the mom hung up by her neck standing on a large structure that could tumble down at any moment. It's a threat to the father's political goals, and an insult to the son's martial arts skills.

I think it's most of the problem. Non-english-speaking actors are always punished by the main western audiences. Hence, Jimi Mistry makes western movies, while Shh Rukh Khan wouldn't be recognised on the street.

But again, I have nothing against movies in which they speak nothing but Chinese. It's just how he presents himself, not what language he's speaking.

Absolutely. He's not much of an actor in English. He's okay.

He's alright in English. He's got a certain charm to him regardless of what he's speaking in - I think it actually worked for him in Unleashed, to give him a kind of affability as the guy who can barely speak English.

Maybe he is uncomfortable. He's been a big element in only two movies, and there's a lot of pressure on him 'over there'.

Indeed. But again, he's not dealing with it well.

What you are describing here - as I'm sure you are aware - is a film, not an actor. You are judging Tony Jaa on his acting ability... but your criteria are everything else.

It's a film, made great by an actor. The script is awesome, yes, but it's Jet Li that brings it to life. The way he presents the character, the way his facial expressions tell you how he's feeling without looking ridiculous - he's really good at what he does.

The 4 minute one-shot up the staircase in Protector didn't impress you?

Nope. I'm moreso impressed by storytelling and acting ability than chase scenes and stunt tricks.


If its done well...ala Matrix it works real well and is an impressive stunt...but too many are just rubbish and far too obvious...and it really irks me...its doing something on the cheap...and unprofessionally.


Mhm. Wirework should be subtle, used to enhance a scene, not to make it.

My first thought on reading the thread title was Tony Jaa. to make it mainstream in the west he needs to produce english-speaking films like lots of other foreign speaking actors previously.

I'd be content with him just making a decent movie in any language.

Donnie Yen still rocks and Michelle Yeoh and Ziyi Zhang always entertain. I loved House of Flying Daggers. Hero pissed me off....it was amazing to look at but I found it hard to find a scene with out any wirework in. I HATE excessive use of wires.

That, and I didn't really like the storyline. He just gave up at the end, like "Yeah this guy's a tyrant, but if he rules over everyone we'll be safer than if we continue fighting for our rights and freedom and such. Screw that, let's be spineless."

It is all about Chow Yun Fat! He is the only one who comes close to Jet Li!

As we've said before, he does best in gun movies. Martial arts doesn't seem to be his forte.

Indeed. As long as they don't overdo it like in Hero. I hate it when a movie gives off the impression that EVERYONE in China can walk on water and fly at will.


Wiow. Talk about missing the point of a movie...

That's why I failed to see why Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon was so trumped.

Decent storyline.

that's only because you don't understand Thai culture. There's three things that are more important to them than anything else in the entire world:
1. their religion
2. their elephants
3. their king

You mess with a man's elephant and honestly, the cops would most likely stand by and watch him beat you to death. Hell, they'd probably hold you down while he does it.

So to your eyes, it's a shallow story of, "meh...it's an elephant - what's the big deal?", but to the Thai it's a big deal. it's a FUCKING BIG DEAL.
Also, you mightn't understand what the big deal about the evil woman who stole the elephant Jaa faces down at the end.
Another huge - HUGE - Thai cultural thing was going on with her.

Right, and I understand that. But he's made TWO movies where that same premise was used in exactly the same way! Regardless of how important that is to his culture, he needs to branch out away from getting back the important religious relic from the evil guy that stole it from his village. That story gets old, really quickly, especially in the way they've been telling it.

I'm glad I know one other person who feels the same way about 'Hero'. I couldn't see what was so great about it.
HoFD was ok, but a kinda odd ending. I thought there was going to be a huge fight scene, but it just finished.

Yeah they just killed eachother over that stupid bitch. I hate her so much.

I've never understood why 'Hero' gets such hate. I think too many people want it to be something it isn't. If you wanted violence, I guess, 'Hero' might disappoint, but that is largely because that isn't where it's heart is - like "Fearless", "Hero" is largely about the 'violence of the mind', and the use of the martial arts discipline to avoid physical conflict.

I'm fine with not much violence, but there was an insane amount of CGI and wires - I'm fine with them using wires to get stunts to look better, but they were flying all over the fucking place, taking out millions of arrows - even in a fantasy setting, that shit wasn't believable.

I guess it also might not help that the 'twist' in the story was given away in the advertising for the western release. (Never have I been so glad to be ahead of the curve, and see a film on import).

*shrugs* I didn't hear about the storyline before seeing it.

I saw Tony Jaa's Ong Bak and the Protector.

He's definitely got potential. In the first one, it is said that there were no CGI or ropes used. If that is true, then it makes the stunts very credibly amazing.

He's got potential as a martial artist, yes, and as a great mindless action star, but to qualify to me as being a Martial Arts Hero (tm) he needs to learn how to carry himself better, take some acting classes, and get involved in some movies in which his character is developed more than just "This guy lives in this village. This village got their shit stoled. He goes and gets it back. This guy is cool."

Plus, he is only 2 movies old. He definitely can enhance his persona in the coming ones. Not all actors start out great. They improve over time with experience and better directors and such.

I certainly hope so.

As an Indian, I could totally identify with the character. Perhaps the idea of sacredness and duty etc are irrelevant in modern west, but they still have relevance in large parts of traditional Asia.

Again, it has NOTHING to do with irrelevance in terms of culture, it's that he's done it TWICE, in ways that don't develop a character at all. The movies weren't about him getting the elephant back or anything honorable like that - they were about showing off his stunting abilities in a thin context of a storyline. If you're going to make a movie about getting an elephant back, then make a movie about getting an elephant back, don't make a movie about a guy who kicks ass for two and a half hours that happens to also include a religious icon being stolen.

.

Wiow. Talk about missing the point of a movie...

I didn't miss the point. I just didn't like the way they went about doing it.

(Another film - French of all things - worth seeing for a similar kind of skill to that Jaa shows (although, not so much on the 'martial arts' side), is "District B13").

Banlieue 13 rocked. That opening scene was awesome. I think it inspired a whole parcours scene here in Montreal, but I have yet to to witness any. And the martial arts guy in that flick wasn't too bad either. He did his own fight choeography, too.

And a film like "Asoka", which might arguably be one of the greatest 'heroic epic' genre movies ever made isn't even a dot on the radar.

Is Asoka any good? I prefer some of the more lighthearted epics like Lagaan or Mard. Does it have musical scenes?

Banlieue 13 rocked. That opening scene was awesome. I think it inspired a whole parcours scene here in Montreal, but I have yet to to witness any. And the martial arts guy in that flick wasn't too bad either. He did his own fight choeography, too.


Yes, the name of that movie always amuses me... in the US (at least) it is District B13... and the B is for Banlieue. As redundant as 'PIN number' or 'ATM machine'.

Parkour was quite popular where I grew up... my teens and early 20's. We didn't have a name for it - it was just 'messing around with your mates' or whatever - but it had quite a following. It's amusing to see it almost a sport, now... and becoming something like it's own 'genre' of film.


Is Asoka any good? I prefer some of the more lighthearted epics like Lagaan or Mard. Does it have musical scenes?

Asoka is very good. It does - almost inevitably - have some musical pieces... but there are only five of them throuhout the length of the film, and they are handled in quite an unusual way for Indian cinema - they tend to actually 'fit. By which I mean - one of the songs is basically a girl singing as she bathes, one is a street parade, one is the lovelorn female lead signing with some other passengers on a raft voyage, one is a dream sequence mourning song, and the other is being sung by a gypsy in a kind of 'bar'.

It is quite serious... although it's almost impossible for it to be totally straight-faced. It isn't as silly or tongue in cheek as something like "Kuch Kuch Hota Hai" or "Dil to Pagal Hai" - it's defineitly closer to something like "Gladiator".

Parkour was quite popular where I grew up... my teens and early 20's. We didn't have a name for it - it was just 'messing around with your mates' or whatever - but it had quite a following. It's amusing to see it almost a sport, now... and becoming something like it's own 'genre' of film.


Yeah, when I was a kid it was just known as running around and jumping and climbing on top of shit you weren't supposed to be on.

Fun stuff.

Yeah, when I was a kid it was just known as running around and jumping and climbing on top of shit you weren't supposed to be on.

Fun stuff.

Is true. I'm a city boy so running along the rooftops of a series of garages, climbing around on the roof of the (I'm going to use the American term, it's not what we would have called it in my day) mall, jumping around on ladders and scaffold, rampaging through the building sites and abandoned buildings, running across bridge handrails and along roadside walls and fences... the general jumping around on overhangs, metal railings, bridges and metal pipes... it was part of our everyday. That's where we played.

Is true. I'm a city boy so running along the rooftops of a series of garages, climbing around on the roof of the (I'm going to use the American term, it's not what we would have called it in my day) mall, jumping around on ladders and scaffold, rampaging through the building sites and abandoned buildings, running across bridge handrails and along roadside walls and fences... the general jumping around on overhangs, metal railings, bridges and metal pipes... it was part of our everyday. That's where we played.

Indeed. That, and construction sites with huge dirt mountains and dirt craters.

Parkour is, I think, the art of reliving your childhood.

Indeed. That, and construction sites with huge dirt mountains and dirt craters.

Parkour is, I think, the art of reliving your childhood.

Yet another one of those times where I could maybe get rich now, for doing what I just 'did', as a kid. D'oh!

I've got your next martial-arts hero right here!

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/shared-blogs/palmbeach/thompson/media/Kevin%20James.jpg

http://us.movies1.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/movie_pix/columbia_pictures/beverly_hills_ninja/chris_farley/ninja.jpg

I've got your next martial-arts hero right here!

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/shared-blogs/palmbeach/thompson/media/Kevin%20James.jpg

http://us.movies1.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/movie_pix/columbia_pictures/beverly_hills_ninja/chris_farley/ninja.jpg

That movie was bad, not because it had Chris "Christ" Farley in it, but because it had that dude from Mortal Kombat.

That movie was bad, not because it had Chris "Christ" Farley in it, but because it had that dude from Mortal Kombat.

I'm not following...

Based on the Epi Formula postulated by /b/...

Pop Culture Reference(X) + Pop Culture Reference(Y) = Win

Right, and I understand that. But he's made TWO movies where that same premise was used in exactly the same way! Regardless of how important that is to his culture, he needs to branch out away from getting back the important religious relic from the evil guy that stole it from his village. That story gets old, really quickly, especially in the way they've been telling it.
you're still missing the point of these movies.
For one thing, what do you think was so important about the woman Jaa faced at the end of the movie?

Also, the plot - while secondary in any action movie - is very much relegated in Asian action movies. It's (nearly) always a simple theme of good (usually poor and usually country) guy facing down rich evil-doers from the city. Very much a reflection of Thai attitudes and idealism. Plus of course, most Asians aren't that well-educated, so a simple plot line is necessary to ensure maximum attendance.

Much like Bollywood dance movies - they don't make much sense at all and all appear pretty much identical, unless you understand a bit about Indian culture and Indian movie history.

Hollywood movies are the same. How many times have we had the 'black guy 2 days before retirement where he's going to sail around the world getting killed' as the excuse for the young living-on-the-edge white guy to use to go around killing everyone?
Or failing that, the hero (an ex-marine/navy seal/CIA operative/Mr Whippy) coming home to find his family killed/kidnapped/raped/forced to watch daytime TV which thus allows him to indulge in an orgy of mindless violence and mayhem, peppered with one-liners, for the next 82 minutes.

I'm not following...

Based on the Epi Formula postulated by /b/...

Pop Culture Reference(X) + Pop Culture Reference(Y) = Win

Liu Kang was played by the guy that was like Farley's classmate in the dojo.

Beverly Hills Ninja.

Liu Kang was played by the guy that was like Farley's classmate in the dojo.

Beverly Hills Ninja.

Ah now I remember that movie :D

Anytime I think of Chris Farley I can't get the movie Tommy Boy out of my head.

Anyway, here is your next Kung Fu hero:
http://www.redcasting.com/_ficheros_publicados/imagenes_contenidos/4/karate_dog_CTL.jpg
The Karate Dog (2004)

When LAPD computer expert Peter Fowler investigates the killing of an old man in Chinatown, he finds the only witness is his dog, Cho Cho. But Fowler soon discovers Cho Cho is the only dog in the world who can speak to humans... not only that, Cho Cho is an expert in martial arts. When they join forces to track down the mastermind behind the death of Cho Cho's master, it leads these unusual partners into uncovering a dangerous conspiracy which puts both of their lives in danger
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0270882/

Man, I could not believe how low Chevy Chase, Jon Voight and Pat Morita have sunk

you're still missing the point of these movies.
For one thing, what do you think was so important about the woman Jaa faced at the end of the movie?

*shrugs*

Also, the plot - while secondary in any action movie - is very much relegated in Asian action movies. It's (nearly) always a simple theme of good (usually poor and usually country) guy facing down rich evil-doers from the city. Very much a reflection of Thai attitudes and idealism. Plus of course, most Asians aren't that well-educated, so a simple plot line is necessary to ensure maximum attendance.

I prefer my plot to be right alongside the action, not secondary.

Much like Bollywood dance movies - they don't make much sense at all and all appear pretty much identical, unless you understand a bit about Indian culture and Indian movie history.

Makes sense. I don't understand Bollywood movies, either.

Hollywood movies are the same. How many times have we had the 'black guy 2 days before retirement where he's going to sail around the world getting killed' as the excuse for the young living-on-the-edge white guy to use to go around killing everyone?
Or failing that, the hero (an ex-marine/navy seal/CIA operative/Mr Whippy) coming home to find his family killed/kidnapped/raped/forced to watch daytime TV which thus allows him to indulge in an orgy of mindless violence and mayhem, peppered with one-liners, for the next 82 minutes.

And those movies suck ass, too. What's your point? That every country makes crappy movies? Of course. I believe the two Jaa movies are examples of them.

Basically my point is that Jaa's movies don't give me any kind of sense of emotion. His characters aren't really introduced all that well, I don't get to know him, therefore I don't really care as much as if I'd learned what his family is like, what he's like, what are his beliefs, etc.

Jet Li expresses those quite well, especially since him and his costars (particularly Michelle Yeoh) have a lot of on-screen chemistry that works really well, regardless of the story itself.

Ah now I remember that movie :D

Anytime I think of Chris Farley I can't get the movie Tommy Boy out of my head.

And Black Sheep. And I LIVE IN A VAN, DOWN BY THE RIVER.

Anyway, here is your next Kung Fu hero:
http://www.redcasting.com/_ficheros_publicados/imagenes_contenidos/4/karate_dog_CTL.jpg

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0270882/

Man, I could not believe how low Chevy Chase, Jon Voight and Pat Morita have sunk

Yeah, I'm almost as ashamed to have been an American when that movie came out as I was when we re-elected Bush.

And Black Sheep. And I LIVE IN A VAN, DOWN BY THE RIVER.

I always despised Chris Farley.

Basically my point is that Jaa's movies don't give me any kind of sense of emotion. His characters aren't really introduced all that well, I don't get to know him, therefore I don't really care as much as if I'd learned what his family is like, what he's like, what are his beliefs, etc.

Jet Li expresses those quite well, especially since him and his costars (particularly Michelle Yeoh) have a lot of on-screen chemistry that works really well, regardless of the story itself.
well, it's going round in circles here. I agree with you that Jaa's not a good actor, but my point is that his movies aren't designed to be vehicles for good acting/plots.
I enjoy them because of the lack of CGI/wirework which are getting far too common and over-indulged in Chinese cinema. It's easier and cheaper I guess.

oh, and btw - the woman Jaa faces at the end isn't.

Yeah, I'm almost as ashamed to have been an American when that movie came out as I was when we re-elected Bush.

Because every thread in NSG must have a Bush slam... :rolleyes:

well, it's going round in circles here. I agree with you that Jaa's not a good actor, but my point is that his movies aren't designed to be vehicles for good acting/plots.
I enjoy them because of the lack of CGI/wirework which are getting far too common and over-indulged in Chinese cinema. It's easier and cheaper I guess.

oh, and btw - the woman Jaa faces at the end isn't.

*shrugs* Still don't get it about the woman.

My point is that until he gets into some decent movies, I can't consider him anywhere near Jet Li's level.

Because every thread in NSG must have a Bush slam... :rolleyes:

It's like a godwin, it has to be there.




Y'fuckin nazi...


<3

It's like a godwin, it has to be there...

We need a title for this...

Nazz's Law. :D

Basically my point is that Jaa's movies don't give me any kind of sense of emotion. His characters aren't really introduced all that well, I don't get to know him, therefore I don't really care as much as if I'd learned what his family is like, what he's like, what are his beliefs, etc.

Jet Li expresses those quite well, especially since him and his costars (particularly Michelle Yeoh) have a lot of on-screen chemistry that works really well, regardless of the story itself.

But again - you aren't familiar with the peculiarities of Thai cinema. We don't generally talk about it, it's taken as read, but every culture of cinema has it's own peculiarity, it's own premise, it's own assumptions. I have had to explain "Curse of the Golden Flower" to people, because they didn't appreciate the importance of duty as cardinal virtue (western cinema favours 'love', over 'duty'), and they didn't appreciate the archetype of doomed hero that is so vitally important.

The Protector doesn't give you an emotional response because you don't livein that world. Listen to Tony Jaa talking about elephants... he really raises them, and he is part of a culture where the elephant holds a deep significance. There is no real need for greater exploration of motive - it's as basic and visceral to the Thai audience as the western prediliction for the murdered bride. Show the chick on camera.. a wedding photo might suffice, but you need a little face time to really stir the motive, then stage a death. No explantion needed, Mr Hero is on a rampage for vengeance. (The opening of Thirteen Ghosts is a perfect example of this mechanism stripped to bare bones - although that one isn't for the 'vengeance' motive).

It's like a godwin, it has to be there.
[/SIZE]

It's gotten old and tired beyond belief, and I'm not even a fan of the guy.

I'm curious to see, though, what the fuck people here are gonna do once he's out of office. They won't have their favourite target to go after while touching themselves anymore.

*shrugs* Still don't get it about the woman.

My point is that until he gets into some decent movies, I can't consider him anywhere near Jet Li's level.
of course he's nowhere near Jet Li's level - and I'd be surprised if he ever does get there.

The woman wasn't one. 'She' was a ladyboy. Again, it's Thai cultural reference for you. Transexuals in Thailand aren't marginalised like they are in the West. They're generally accepted - so showing one as evil (especially one so bad that she killed an elephant!) is a pretty major thing.

this is what I mean by cultural references. There's actually a tonne of semi-subtle stuff going on in his movies you wouldn't be aware of.

Take the final fight scene in Ong Bak.
For one thing, the general release movie cut quite a pivotal scene at the start where Jaa's old master gives him some herbs that the original Muay Thai fighter used.
At the end, Jaa uses these on his body (he's shown chewing and spitting them on his arms), while the bad guy uses stimulants - basically good traditional Thai method vs evil new (read: Western) method.
Final blow to take him out was Jaa leaping down and elbowing the top of the guy's head (lots of blood in the original version btw).
Yet another significant scene - To Thais, the top of the head is the most sacred part of the body and should never be touched. So Jaa wasn't just beating him by elbowing his skull - he was humiliating him.

It's gotten old and tired beyond belief, and I'm not even a fan of the guy.

I'm curious to see, though, what the fuck people here are gonna do once he's out of office. They won't have their favourite target to go after while touching themselves anymore.
Well, Clinton's been out of office for 6 years now, and you still haven't gotten over dragging his name out everytime GOP is criticised and touching yourself over him.

But again - you aren't familiar with the peculiarities of Thai cinema. We don't generally talk about it, it's taken as read, but every culture of cinema has it's own peculiarity, it's own premise, it's own assumptions. I have had to explain "Curse of the Golden Flower" to people, because they didn't appreciate the importance of duty as cardinal virtue (western cinema favours 'love', over 'duty'), and they didn't appreciate the archetype of doomed hero that is so vitally important.

The Protector doesn't give you an emotional response because you don't livein that world. Listen to Tony Jaa talking about elephants... he really raises them, and he is part of a culture where the elephant holds a deep significance. There is no real need for greater exploration of motive - it's as basic and visceral to the Thai audience as the western prediliction for the murdered bride. Show the chick on camera.. a wedding photo might suffice, but you need a little face time to really stir the motive, then stage a death. No explantion needed, Mr Hero is on a rampage for vengeance. (The opening of Thirteen Ghosts is a perfect example of this mechanism stripped to bare bones - although that one isn't for the 'vengeance' motive).

Right, but Thirteen Ghosts is a shitty movie, as well.

My point is that while the context might make sense, it doesn't mean the movie itself has good storytelling or is good at all. Again, it just seems like the movie is about him kicking ass, with a token reason for it on the side, as opposed to a true purpose.

It's gotten old and tired beyond belief, and I'm not even a fan of the guy.

I'm curious to see, though, what the fuck people here are gonna do once he's out of office. They won't have their favourite target to go after while touching themselves anymore.

We can still go after him. Shit, people went after Perot and he didn't even get elected.

Right, but Thirteen Ghosts is a shitty movie, as well.



Whether or not you like Thirteen Ghosts is irrelevent. The opening is still an excellent example of the mechanism I described.

Once again, however, I thinkwe are seeing your 'opinion' masquerading as fact. You don't like Thirteen Ghosts... that doesn't make it a bad movie.


My point is that while the context might make sense, it doesn't mean the movie itself has good storytelling or is good at all. Again, it just seems like the movie is about him kicking ass, with a token reason for it on the side, as opposed to a true purpose.

And again, you attack the actor... because you don't like the product. You attack the structure of the film, because you don't understand the framework in which that film exists.

I'm not claiming "The Protector" is the greatest film ever made. It's not even my favourite ("Curse of the Golden Flower" is currently fighting "Hero" for that honour)... but I think you are misjudging it. The storytelling is no worse than 99% of western cinema. The 'token reason' as you describe it, is no more transient or taoken than 99% of western action movie concepts.

I understand why you like Jet Li... I love Jet Li, too. But, Jet Li is a 'western' film star - he is packaged, and has been trained, to appeal to western audiences. Tony Jaa might be a western filmstar, in another few years. Now, he should be considered in context, as well as on a world stage. You really have to try to let go of the Hollywood programming that shapes your expectations.

Whether or not you like Thirteen Ghosts is irrelevent. The opening is still an excellent example of the mechanism I described.

Once again, however, I thinkwe are seeing your 'opinion' masquerading as fact. You don't like Thirteen Ghosts... that doesn't make it a bad movie.

No, the bad acting and terrible storyline made it a bad movie.

And again, you attack the actor... because you don't like the product. You attack the structure of the film, because you don't understand the framework in which that film exists.

*shrugs* The actor keeps making a substandard product. Once he makes good ones, my view of him may change - until then, no.

I'm not claiming "The Protector" is the greatest film ever made. It's not even my favourite ("Curse of the Golden Flower" is currently fighting "Hero" for that honour)... but I think you are misjudging it. The storytelling is no worse than 99% of western cinema. The 'token reason' as you describe it, is no more transient or taoken than 99% of western action movie concepts.

Right, and I think those token reasons make the movie shitty as well. I hate lack of plot.

I understand why you like Jet Li... I love Jet Li, too. But, Jet Li is a 'western' film star - he is packaged, and has been trained, to appeal to western audiences. Tony Jaa might be a western filmstar, in another few years. Now, he should be considered in context, as well as on a world stage. You really have to try to let go of the Hollywood programming that shapes your expectations.

Did you even read my OP? I actually PREFER the early-90's Jet Li movies that were done in China. Those are his best movies! How the hell does Twin Warriors and Fist of Legend have any Hollywood programming in it?
.

No, the bad acting and terrible storyline made it a bad movie.


The acting wasn't that bad. The storyline not that terrible. Again, I don't think we are talking about the essence of the genre, but "Thirteen Ghosts" is superior to 99% of the fare in it's genre, also.


*shrugs* The actor keeps making a substandard product. Once he makes good ones, my view of him may change - until then, no.


Again, you seem incapable of discrimination between the actor and the product.


Right, and I think those token reasons make the movie shitty as well. I hate lack of plot.


You must be very picky about movies, if you are as intolerant of plot in western movies as you apparently are in Thai cinema. I assume you must have hated movies like "A Man Apart" and "Punisher"?


Did you even read my OP? I actually PREFER the early-90's Jet Li movies that were done in China. Those are his best movies! How the hell does Twin Warriors and Fist of Legend have any Hollywood programming in it?

Are you for real?

"Twin Warriors" and "Fist of Legend" are Hong Kong movies. And Hong Kong cinema was - for many years - about as 'western' as 'eastern' cinema got.

Mhm. Wirework should be subtle, used to enhance a scene, not to make it...


...Indeed. As long as they don't overdo it like in Hero....



...Did you even read my OP? I actually PREFER the early-90's Jet Li movies that were done in China. Those are his best movies! How the hell does Twin Warriors and Fist of Legend have any Hollywood programming in it?


I'm finding your position inconsistent. I think you allow things for actors you like, that you claim as flaws in other products. "Twin Warriors" is so heavy-handed with it's wirework that you can clearly see the wires in many scenes.

The acting wasn't that bad. The storyline not that terrible. Again, I don't think we are talking about the essence of the genre, but "Thirteen Ghosts" is superior to 99% of the fare in it's genre, also.

I would disagree. The kids were so irritating, and the nanny was so stereotypically black, and the dad was just constantly like "... What?! I don't understand!" when something is being explained to him. Very annoying.

Again, you seem incapable of discrimination between the actor and the product.

Why would I judge an actor by anything other than the movies he's in? I judge Jet Li by his general character and how he presents himself on and offscreen, but only because I've been a fan of his for so long.

You must be very picky about movies, if you are as intolerant of plot in western movies as you apparently are in Thai cinema. I assume you must have hated movies like "A Man Apart" and "Punisher"?

Haven't seen "A Man Apart", but yeah, Punisher fucking sucked. Directly ripping off The Crow in a big way, no less.

Are you for real?

"Twin Warriors" and "Fist of Legend" are Hong Kong movies. And Hong Kong cinema was - for many years - about as 'western' as 'eastern' cinema got.*shrugs* I wasn't aware. I don't see the difference, though - cohesive plot, direct and indirect characterization used effectively, and even political themes as well. They were good movies, regardless of how "western" they were.

But just for curiousity's sake, how are they "western"?.

I'm finding your position inconsistent. I think you allow things for actors you like, that you claim as flaws in other products. "Twin Warriors" is so heavy-handed with it's wirework that you can clearly see the wires in many scenes.

Uh, I allow things for actors I like (Jet Li) that I claim as flaws in other movies (Hero, starring Jet Li)? Doesn't make much sense. Seems I'm judging him regardless of if I like him.

Twin Warriors had a lot of wirework, yeah, but nowhere near as much as Hero, and they offset it with a lot of regular fights as well.

Jet Li's modern movies have been excellent as well.

Kiss of the Dragon and Unleashed.

Both movies with only one scene that involves wirework. The stories kick major ass, and the action is brutally realistic. You say 'westernized' with a negative condontation, but if so then I'm bad to the bone baby*.


*Cheesy puns are a trademark of Luporum. Any such infringements of this copyright are in violation of internationstate law and will result in prosecution.

I would disagree. The kids were so irritating, and the nanny was so stereotypically black, and the dad was just constantly like "... What?! I don't understand!" when something is being explained to him. Very annoying.


It's not Shakespeare... but it's competetion in genre, is things like "Texas Chainsaw Massacre". By comparison, it IS Francis Bacon, at least.


Why would I judge an actor by anything other than the movies he's in? I judge Jet Li by his general character and how he presents himself on and offscreen, but only because I've been a fan of his for so long.


How about judging an actor based on his acting?

Or - since martial arts films are loosely 'action' movies... why not judge it on the action? I've not seen a four minute oneshot like the one in Protector anywhere else. That alone is genius choreography. How about the variant martial art that Jaa conceived for The Protector - his non-canonical 'Elephant Stomp' form?


Haven't seen "A Man Apart", but yeah, Punisher fucking sucked. Directly ripping off The Crow in a big way, no less.


Wasn't the Punisher comic originally released before O' Barr's Crow comic? I'm a huge Crow fan (I have all four movies, and all the comic books), but I don't know that it is the most original concept.

The only good thing I can say about the remake Punisher is - it wasn't the non-remake one.


*shrugs* I wasn't aware. I don't see the difference, though - cohesive plot, direct and indirect characterization used effectively, and even political themes as well. They were good movies, regardless of how "western" they were.


But, they are western. And, that seems to be your niche.


But just for curiousity's sake, how are they "western"?

Hong Kong cinema is (often) more like western cinema than eastern. Look at John Woo - he imported western movie stylings into eastern cinema, and magnified certain elements through some of the perspectives we were talking about earlier - "Hard Boiled" is like a Chinese Heroic Epic... but with guns instead of swords. Ironically, we now are at the point where we are trading the style we stole back from Hong Kong... look at the 'two-gun' techniques Tarantino and Rodriguez toy with.

That's actually one of the best things about Hong Kong cinema - it has been like a stock-exchange for global cinema. The Matrix is another example of a wave of 'inspiration', and 'Hero' an example of the reactionary inspiration that follows it.

Uh, I allow things for actors I like (Jet Li) that I claim as flaws in other movies (Hero, starring Jet Li)? Doesn't make much sense. Seems I'm judging him regardless of if I like him.

Twin Warriors had a lot of wirework, yeah, but nowhere near as much as Hero, and they offset it with a lot of regular fights as well.

The point is - your big complaint against Hero seems to be the wirework. And yet, while it is more exaggerated in Hero, the wirework is more obvious in Twin Warriors - which you hold up as one of the movies martial arts cinema should aspire to.

You say 'westernized' with a negative condontation...

Who does? I don't.

Who does? I don't.

Sorry just seemed that way.

Sorry just seemed that way.

I'm not sure how. My 'complaint' against western cinema isn't about 'westernising' anything... it is about ignoring everything outside of a narrow range.

It's about talent, Miyazaki is a genius - but he gets no press in the west until Disney promotes his product. "Hero" didn't get any attention until it was "Quentin Tarantino Presents".

And it's about content and style. A classic example would be the Japanese masterpiece "Kairo" (Pulse), about isolation, loneliness, and the sterile communication of peer-to-peer rather than face-to-face contact.

In the hands of the 'western' machine, it becomes a second-rate remake about 'electric ghosts'.

I'm not sure how. My 'complaint' against western cinema isn't about 'westernising' anything... it is about ignoring everything outside of a narrow range.

It's about talent, Miyazaki is a genius - but he gets no press in the west until Disney promotes his product. "Hero" didn't get any attention until it was "Quentin Tarantino Presents".

And it's about content and style. A classic example would be the Japanese masterpiece "Kairo" (Pulse), about isolation, loneliness, and the sterile communication of peer-to-peer rather than face-to-face contact.

In the hands of the 'western' machine, it becomes a second-rate remake about 'electric ghosts'.

Actually most Americans love the original versions. Especially when compared to their abominable remakes: the ring, the grudge, etc.

For some reason production companies fear that bringing it straight from Japan would drive off the mainstream audience.

Actually most Americans love the original versions. Especially when compared to their abominable remakes: the ring, the grudge, etc.

For some reason production companies fear that bringing it straight from Japan would drive off the mainstream audience.

And that's what I'm talking about when I talk about 'westernisation'... a kind of cultural sanitization.

Production companies sanitize the 'foreigner' because they don't trust the natives to get the flavour. Consequently, the natives all have bland uneducated tastebuds, and never learn to love 'foreign' fare. So - the production companies...

Jet Li's modern movies have been excellent as well.

Kiss of the Dragon and Unleashed.

Both movies with only one scene that involves wirework. The stories kick major ass, and the action is brutally realistic. You say 'westernized' with a negative condontation, but if so then I'm bad to the bone baby*.


*Cheesy puns are a trademark of Luporum. Any such infringements of this copyright are in violation of internationstate law and will result in prosecution.

Kiss of the Dragon was alright. Not his best, but much better than The One.

It's not Shakespeare... but it's competetion in genre, is things like "Texas Chainsaw Massacre". By comparison, it IS Francis Bacon, at least.

By now you should know I hold all movies up to the same standard. The only horror movie I really respect is Cube. There's a difference between respecting a movie and actually liking it - respecting it means I really think it was good enough to recommend and praise. Simply liking it just means it's at most, a guilty pleasure.

I liked Ringu. I hated The Ring and Ring 2. I liked Ju-On, and The Grudge (though I respect Ju-On a bit if for nothing but it's better ending). I hate all the Jason movies, but I like watching them (but I still don't like them - I enjoy making fun of them). I respect the FIRST Nightmare on Elm Street movie, and I like a few of the others, but that's it. I respect Oldboy, and American Psycho. There are probably others, but that's just a few examples.

In general, horror films aren't exactly ripe with great plots or characters that you can relate to.

How about judging an actor based on his acting?

Already told you what I think about Jaa's acting skills. :p

Or - since martial arts films are loosely 'action' movies... why not judge it on the action? I've not seen a four minute oneshot like the one in Protector anywhere else. That alone is genius choreography. How about the variant martial art that Jaa conceived for The Protector - his non-canonical 'Elephant Stomp' form?

I don't like any film that I can't judge based on storyline and characterization.

Wasn't the Punisher comic originally released before O' Barr's Crow comic? I'm a huge Crow fan (I have all four movies, and all the comic books), but I don't know that it is the most original concept.

The only good thing I can say about the remake Punisher is - it wasn't the non-remake one.

I've heard that before, but while the movie "The Crow" might take a theme or two from the comic "Punisher", it certainly makes those themes look much better - the movie created it's own universe. The "Punisher" movie obviously ripped "The Crow" movie - it's like it abandoned its own comic in lieu of a much better model given by the movie "The Crow". Didn't they even have a scene where the Punisher drove a guy off a dock and made the car explode, then lit a symbol on fire with lighter fluid?

But, they are western. And, that seems to be your niche.

But what makes a movie "western" as opposed to "eastern"? What specific qualities or themes are there in one that aren't in the other?

Hong Kong cinema is (often) more like western cinema than eastern. Look at John Woo - he imported western movie stylings into eastern cinema, and magnified certain elements through some of the perspectives we were talking about earlier - "Hard Boiled" is like a Chinese Heroic Epic... but with guns instead of swords. Ironically, we now are at the point where we are trading the style we stole back from Hong Kong... look at the 'two-gun' techniques Tarantino and Rodriguez toy with.

This is true. But Twin Warriors and Fist of Legend don't have guns. What's "western" about them?

That's actually one of the best things about Hong Kong cinema - it has been like a stock-exchange for global cinema. The Matrix is another example of a wave of 'inspiration', and 'Hero' an example of the reactionary inspiration that follows it.

And yet you consider the western influence akin to "Hollywood programming"?

The point is - your big complaint against Hero seems to be the wirework. And yet, while it is more exaggerated in Hero, the wirework is more obvious in Twin Warriors - which you hold up as one of the movies martial arts cinema should aspire to.

No, my BIG complaint against Hero is the ending. My little complaints are that it has that Zhang whore in it, and that the fightscenes were insanely unrealistic (like the arrows just being tossed aside so easily, with no shrapnel damaging them, etc) to the extent that I actually resented the movie for being so fantastical, and while I understand the meaning and tradition and value in the scene where the calligraphists just sat there drawing while they died, I can't relate to that at all and even knowing all the tradition (I'm making sure you realize this, since we had to have this discussion about the elephant a few times) I still think they were being a bit overdramatic, considering they could've just found cover until the arrows stopped and then continued writing.

a kind of cultural sanitization.

Japan and China perfected that before anyone else.

And that's what I'm talking about when I talk about 'westernisation'... a kind of cultural sanitization.

Production companies sanitize the 'foreigner' because they don't trust the natives to get the flavour. Consequently, the natives all have bland uneducated tastebuds, and never learn to love 'foreign' fare. So - the production companies...

Well, um, if the originals to "The Grudge" and "The Ring" are not "westernized", and I actually prefer Ju-On and Ringu, then why is "hollywood programming" my niche, again?

No, my BIG complaint against Hero is the ending. My little complaints are that it has that Zhang whore in it...


If you mean Zhang Ziyi, she's a very talented actress. You seem to have issues with expressions of sexuality, although I'm not sure how Zhang Ziyi ties into that... unless it's just because she is pretty, sexual and can act.

...and that the fightscenes were insanely unrealistic (like the arrows just being tossed aside so easily, with no shrapnel damaging them, etc) to the extent that I actually resented the movie for being so fantastical, and while I understand the meaning and tradition and value in the scene where the calligraphists just sat there drawing while they died, I can't relate to that at all and even knowing all the tradition (I'm making sure you realize this, since we had to have this discussion about the elephant a few times) I still think they were being a bit overdramatic, considering they could've just found cover until the arrows stopped and then continued writing.

No - you really didn't get it.

I'd say go back and watch it, and this time make sure you follow the story... but I don't think you'd do it.

You do realise that none of the fights in Hero actually happened, right? They are having a kind of story-war, in the traditions of the old Chinese Heroic Epics...?

You best not speak ill of Princess Mononoke next :mad:

I'm not sure how. My 'complaint' against western cinema isn't about 'westernising' anything... it is about ignoring everything outside of a narrow range.

It's about talent, Miyazaki is a genius - but he gets no press in the west until Disney promotes his product. "Hero" didn't get any attention until it was "Quentin Tarantino Presents".

And it's about content and style. A classic example would be the Japanese masterpiece "Kairo" (Pulse), about isolation, loneliness, and the sterile communication of peer-to-peer rather than face-to-face contact.

In the hands of the 'western' machine, it becomes a second-rate remake about 'electric ghosts'.

A lot of people like Miyazaki's films. My girlfriend, included. I don't - Disney inclusion or otherwise. His movies seem to have no cohesive plot, and the ending to "Howl's Moving Castle" annoyed me to no end (You mean he could've just taken his heart back and everything would've been okay!? Even for the star!? Then why the hell did he even swallow the damn thing in the first place!? And the witch was a stupid whore the whole way through, but especially near the end when she was hogging Howl's heart. Also, the girl apparently had a love triangle between the strawman and Howl - they never solved that. And Howl kept seeing her being young when she thought about loving him, but he never mentions anything to her about it; she's obviously oblivious to it! And Howl went fucking emo on everyone when his hair changed color, Jesus Christ that annoyed me.)

And in "Spirited Away", the plot just seemed to go on, and on, and on, and on, with random shit happening... I didn't feel any kind of connection whatsoever. Sure, there's magical shit happening everywhere - and? She seems fine with it. I understand it's the story of changing the girl's perspective and how she used to be a brat and turned out to be a better person for having experienced the other world and relied on herself, but there doesn't seem to be any kind of transition - as soon as she gets in there, she's on her feet, getting a job, saving her friend, curing the spirits, fighting noface, all this stuff, without really any guidance. Like the whole thing is pointless because she's already self-reliant, she just didn't need to be - but then when she gets back to her world she won't need to be anymore, so we don't even know if the change stuck! The only character I even liked in that movie was the baby-turned-...pigthing? He was cute as hell.

I actually LOOK for "Tartan Asia Extreme" on the box cover when finding a movie to rent, because more often than not I'll enjoy an asian horror movie on all levels more than I would an american one. I'm, by no means, "westernized".

If you mean Zhang Ziyi, she's a very talented actress. You seem to have issues with expressions of sexuality, although I'm not sure how Zhang Ziyi ties into that... unless it's just because she is pretty, sexual and can act.

I don't have anything against sexuality, but I don't think she can act. All her characters seem the same to me - they're very annoying, backwards, tricky and eventually get raped/molested.

No - you really didn't get it.

I'd say go back and watch it, and this time make sure you follow the story... but I don't think you'd do it.

You do realise that none of the fights in Hero actually happened, right? They are having a kind of story-war, in the traditions of the old Chinese Heroic Epics...?

Yeah, I get the whole perspective through color thing, and how it's all a story being told in the emperor's chambers, and etc etc. I just don't like it. I can understand it but not like it, can't I?.

You best not speak ill of Princess Mononoke next :mad:

Mononoke Hime rules. Not my fave of the set (I prefer Spirited Away), but better than any of the recent offerings that disney have made. No wonder they were so desperate for the imports.

You best not speak ill of Princess Mononoke next :mad:

He he. Hehe.


I thought the characters were annoying! I thought the stupid bitch with the gun going after the forest god's head was insanely irritating and irrational - WHY would you try and kill it!? I was rooting the damn thing on after it went crazy, "Kill all those fuckers, god damnit" - and while I liked the idea of a bunch of women protecting the fort and how they characterized it, the fact remains they were still led by that one stupid bitch with the gun!

I also didn't like Nausicaa.

Or Totoro.

And isn't Castle in the Sky supposed to be a sequel or prequel or something to Howl's Moving Castle? I couldn't even watch the whole thing I disliked it so much.

I don't have anything against sexuality, but I don't think she can act. All her characters seem the same to me - they're very annoying, backwards, tricky and eventually get raped/molested.


I don't believe you. Your use of the word 'whore' for someone who - you say - gets raped or molested, says more than your other words can pretend.

You dismiss Zhang Ziyi for sexuality, but don't mention any of her lovers... obviously, it is only a fault in a woman. Similarly - to blame the woman for being raped?


Yeah, I get the whole perspective through color thing, and how it's all a story being told in the emperor's chambers, and etc etc. I just don't like it. I can understand it but not like it, can't I?

The whole movie is summed up in the first fight. The two warriors weigh each other up, fighting the whole battle through in their heads. (It is also no accident that Donnie Yen is playing Chess when the law arrives.) No actual blows are delivered until the killing blow - IF it is ever delivered... it is a choice.

If your complaint is that the fights are unrealistic - of course they are - they aren't real. These are two men feeling each other out with variants on the truth, different interpretations, and outright lies. The stories they tell are the traditional Epic types... and that's the important part - they are 'epics'. The stories are supposed to be larger-than-life, almost godlike.

The most important thing that happens in that room is not to do with swords or fighting at all - it is to do with red ink.

I really don't think you got it.

"As an Indian"... That made me think. I've encountered this kind of reaction before. I know Indian movies aren't to everyone's taste, but western audiences are fundamentally opposed to 'foreign' movies. Japanese cinema is still only really 'acceptable' as material for remakes. And a film like "Asoka", which might arguably be one of the greatest 'heroic epic' genre movies ever made isn't even a dot on the radar.

I won't rate Asoka as highly as you.

You should watch "Mughal-e-Azam" (the old one, not the new remake)- the best period movie Bollywood has produced.

I don't believe you. Your use of the word 'whore' for someone who - you say - gets raped or molested, says more than your other words can pretend.

You dismiss Zhang Ziyi for sexuality, but don't mention any of her lovers... obviously, it is only a fault in a woman. Similarly - to blame the woman for being raped?

Negative, m'good man. I don't mention her lovers because as far as I know, her lovers are different in each movie. The fact that she gets raped/molested in many of the movies I see her in isn't so much a dealbreaker as it is I don't like any of her characters in the first place, and that just puts the exclaimation point on it.

I call her a "whore" because it's the thing that stands out for me most as the most common denominator of all her characters, so I use a negative word to describe her because frankly I hate her.

Also, I resent the fact that she's Chinese, yet she played a Japanese role in Geisha.


The whole movie is summed up in the first fight. The two warriors weigh each other up, fighting the whole battle through in their heads. (It is also no accident that Donnie Yen is playing Chess when the law arrives.) No actual blows are delivered until the killing blow - IF it is ever delivered... it is a choice.

I know that. It's nothing too impressive - it's good they have original ways of dealing with battle, and the scene itself is, admittedly, my favorite one in the movie (added onto the fact that Donnie Yen is one of the candidates for the next Martial Arts Hero (tm)). It's just not enough for me to like the entire movie as a whole.

If your complaint is that the fights are unrealistic - of course they are - they aren't real. These are two men feeling each other out with variants on the truth, different interpretations, and outright lies. The stories they tell are the traditional Epic types... and that's the important part - they are 'epics'. The stories are supposed to be larger-than-life, almost godlike.

Epics they are, but I apparently don't have much taste for epics. I liked 300, while realizing it was historically inaccurate on major points - I liked it as a movie, and I respected the way they used the cinematography to make everything look stylish - I suppose you could call 300 an epic, but I don't so much dislike the fact that they exaggerated in Hero, but HOW they did it. The style of it just put me off.

The most important thing that happens in that room is not to do with swords or fighting at all - it is to do with red ink.

Right, but you can do all the calligraphy you want if you just get behind something that'll block the arrows, and paint there.

I really don't think you got it.

I'm refraining from calling you a movie snob because I'm somewhat of a snob myself, with my high expectations and standards, but the line "You just didn't get it" isn't going to further this conversation in any good way..

As hardcore as he is, he's still comedic compared to what Jet Li can do.
Li seemed to have needed help in the "suspense" persuasion an awful lot.


Meh. He spat fire in that movie. Kinda disappointed me they went that goofy with it.
As for the goofy, there's very little with "Jackie" that isn't goofy, as said before.
But there's some quite serious stuff in that one as well, as i'd said. Again, depends on what you know, and what kind of discretion you maintain.

Li seemed to have needed help in the "suspense" persuasion an awful lot.



As for the goofy, there's very little with "Jackie" that isn't goofy, as said before.
But there's some quite serious stuff in that one as well, as i'd said. Again, depends on what you know, and what kind of discretion you maintain.

I'm not saying it's not a good movie, I just prefer one of Jet Li's comparable movies instead.

What kind of help did he need with suspense?

Because every thread in NSG must have a Bush slam... :rolleyes:

Yeah, since he - like Wally in "Dilbert" being the "kleenex" of engineers - is the "kleenex" of barbed reference.
It's not like this is the only forum with that particular persuasion to it.

Perhaps every thread should have a Bush scissor in it instead?

I'm not saying it's not a good movie, I just prefer one of Jet Li's comparable movies instead.Well, that's kinda the nature of this thread, i guess.


What kind of help did he need with suspense?
My brother in law is a fiend for what he deems "martial arts movies", and would always try to get me to watch them with him. When it came to Li movies, he'd always ask what was possible/likely, and i would end up asking him just how much he felt he could emulate without the help of wires, and i would end up pointing out a lot of times how much was being done by Li with wires.
I think the part in "The One" with the motorcycles is comparable to your dislike of Jackie breathing fire. :)

Mononoke Hime rules. Not my fave of the set (I prefer Spirited Away), but better than any of the recent offerings that disney have made. No wonder they were so desperate for the imports.

Gillian Anderson, WooT!

BTW, when my wife wants to agitate me as quickly as possible, she starts gasping like No-Face at me, hand gestures et al. :eek:

It's gotten old and tired beyond belief, and I'm not even a fan of the guy.

I'm curious to see, though, what the fuck people here are gonna do once he's out of office. They won't have their favourite target to go after while touching themselves anymore.

*agrees with Szanth in earlier post*
You know, even six years into this miserable fucking crusade ala Bush/PNAC/Neocon, i'm still "hearing" how it's mostly "Clinton"'s fault for everything that's gone wrong.
Usually, though, i'm not touching myself when i'm thinking of Shrubya, but now you've given me a project for the weekend (i usually save the touching for other threads - sometimes ones you're in!)
:p

It's not Shakespeare... but it's competetion in genre, is things like "Texas Chainsaw Massacre". By comparison, it IS Francis Bacon, at least.
There you go again with your sigworthy stuff :D

Y'all know Bacon died after trying to stuff a freshly plucked chicken with snow, right?

Well, that's kinda the nature of this thread, i guess.



My brother in law is a fiend for what he deems "martial arts movies", and would always try to get me to watch them with him. When it came to Li movies, he'd always ask what was possible/likely, and i would end up asking him just how much he felt he could emulate without the help of wires, and i would end up pointing out a lot of times how much was being done by Li with wires.
I think the part in "The One" with the motorcycles is comparable to your dislike of Jackie breathing fire. :)

And I hate The One with a passion. The only part of that movie I liked was at the end when he said that, not only was he not other people's bitch, but they were, in fact, HIS bitches. And he then commenced an asswhooping atop a pyramid as the scene closed. It was neato.

*agrees with Szanth in earlier post*
You know, even six years into this miserable fucking crusade ala Bush/PNAC/Neocon, i'm still "hearing" how it's mostly "Clinton"'s fault for everything that's gone wrong.
Usually, though, i'm not touching myself when i'm thinking of Shrubya, but now you've given me a project for the weekend (i usually save the touching for other threads - sometimes ones you're in!)
:p

Cluich was wondering what that sticky stuff was.

Well, that's kinda the nature of this thread, i guess.



My brother in law is a fiend for what he deems "martial arts movies", and would always try to get me to watch them with him. When it came to Li movies, he'd always ask what was possible/likely, and i would end up asking him just how much he felt he could emulate without the help of wires, and i would end up pointing out a lot of times how much was being done by Li with wires.
I think the part in "The One" with the motorcycles is comparable to your dislike of Jackie breathing fire. :)

Since it hasn't appeared to come up (unless i missed it) :
http://www.canada.com/topics/entertainment/story.html?id=c351601b-5c67-43c2-9685-d4680b76d646&k=49981
The action film has drawn attention because it pairs the world's top two kung fu stars. Both Chan and Li had revealed the collaboration earlier but hadn't given details about the plot.

Chan, however, did not appear all that enthusiastic about the movie.

"I don't have any expectations. It's just making an American movie," he told reporters at the opening of an electronics trade fair in Hong Kong on Thursday, suggesting that Hollywood producers were dictating the project.

"The Forbidden Kingdom" will start shooting May 2 in movie studios in and near Hengdian city southwest of Shanghai, the movie's producer Casey Silver said in a phone interview late Wednesday.

The idea for the film originates with the classic Chinese novel "Journey to the West," in which a monkey king, a pig and a friar help guard a Buddhist monk searching for religious texts.
In the works for a while, finally making headway.
:)

There you go again with your sigworthy stuff :D

Y'all know Bacon died after trying to stuff a freshly plucked chicken with snow, right?

I inheritly don't like people with last name "Bacon". I think this stems from my dislike of Kevin Bacon.


Though oddly enough, I like JFK, Tremors, and that one movie where he raped those kids and they killed him later.

I inheritly don't like people with last name "Bacon". I think this stems from my dislike of Kevin Bacon.And four or five other things associated with him, i could guess? :p


Though oddly enough, I like JFK, Tremors, and that one movie where he raped those kids and they killed him later.You know about his nominally-successful band, right? He can be heckled! WooT!
I'm not against him much but i don't spend a lot of time thinking about him.

I don't idolize Mel Gibson. *zing!*

I was talking about Chuck Norris. But you don't idolize him either.

Negative, m'good man. I don't mention her lovers because as far as I know, her lovers are different in each movie. The fact that she gets raped/molested in many of the movies I see her in isn't so much a dealbreaker as it is I don't like any of her characters in the first place, and that just puts the exclaimation point on it.


So - Dakota Fanning is a whore, because she is abused in one movie, and raped in another?

Jeniffer Lopez is a whore because she get's domestically abused in a movie?


I call her a "whore" because it's the thing that stands out for me most as the most common denominator of all her characters, so I use a negative word to describe her because frankly I hate her.


At least you finally revealed your true colours - you just plain don't like her. 'Whore' is a derogatory term you are using to attack women.

I don't think much of that stance, to be honest. It sounds like you feel frustrated and threatened by female sexuality - even when that 'sexuality' is being the victim of assault. Bizarre.


Also, I resent the fact that she's Chinese, yet she played a Japanese role in Geisha.


You probably shouldn't watch the remake of Solaris... they let someone play "Gordon" that wasn't white OR a man. Sick, huh?


Right, but you can do all the calligraphy you want if you just get behind something that'll block the arrows, and paint there.


Again, that's not important.


I'm refraining from calling you a movie snob because I'm somewhat of a snob myself, with my high expectations and standards, but the line "You just didn't get it" isn't going to further this conversation in any good way.

I am a movie snob, perhaps. However, in this case, you really didn't 'get' the movie. You've admitted it yourself you don't get cultural references. You also apparently failed to appreciate the entire reason the fights are so fantastical. I'd say don't be precious about it... you really missed it this time, embrace it. Own your lack of understanding.

Gillian Anderson, WooT!

BTW, when my wife wants to agitate me as quickly as possible, she starts gasping like No-Face at me, hand gestures et al. :eek:

Cool. Your wife rocks. So does mine... we should have a 'wives of NSers meetup'... :D

Y'all know Bacon died after trying to stuff a freshly plucked chicken with snow, right?

I know it's nearly been the end of me, so many times... :o

You can idolize Chuck Norris because that would be he's an idol not the end all be all of existence, which he is.

Since it hasn't appeared to come up (unless i missed it) :
http://www.canada.com/topics/entertainment/story.html?id=c351601b-5c67-43c2-9685-d4680b76d646&k=49981

In the works for a while, finally making headway.
:)

I thought he (Li) said no more to the martial arts movies, after Fearless?

That's why I failed to see why Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon was so trumped.

I wasn't keen on it either, the fight scenes in it are good, but there's very few and the whole love story part pisses me off. I switch off at that point. Yes there's a fair bit of wires used but there's also some proper fighting too unlike Hero.

My fav is still a really old film called 72 Desperate Rebels. Watch it if you can, it's full of all the old kung-fu movie cliches (blind swordsman/one-armed swordsman/ghost killer etc. etc.) but it's also bloody good, and cheap *nods*

Why has Stephen Chow not been mentioned!?

For god's sake he's the best of Jackie Chan and Jet Li combined.

So - Dakota Fanning is a whore, because she is abused in one movie, and raped in another?

Jeniffer Lopez is a whore because she get's domestically abused in a movie?

They weren't sexually abused. And they were victims. And Jennifer Lopez is a whore regardless.

But in Zhang's movies, she ENJOYS being raped and molested. She allows it, she revels in it - in Crouching Tiger she resisted at first but then fell in love with the guy during him raping her. It's a constant in the movies I've seen with her in it - she's consistently a sexual figure. Like Jaa, her characters are very one-dimensional, but instead of hiding it with asskicking, she hides it with sex.

At least you finally revealed your true colours - you just plain don't like her. 'Whore' is a derogatory term you are using to attack women.

No, 'Whore' is a derogatory term I'm using to attack THIS PARTICULAR WOMAN. Generalizations for the lose.

I don't think much of that stance, to be honest. It sounds like you feel frustrated and threatened by female sexuality - even when that 'sexuality' is being the victim of assault. Bizarre.

It sounds like you're being overly psychoanalytical to discredit me and my opinions. I've mentioned this before: I dislike the fact that all her characters are the same, and they happen to all enjoy and/or tolerate patiently being forced upon in a sexual manner. Maybe once she plays a character that DOESN'T fit this archetype, I'll think differently of her, but as of now that's all I've seen.

You probably shouldn't watch the remake of Solaris... they let someone play "Gordon" that wasn't white OR a man. Sick, huh?

Never seen it.

Again, that's not important.

I'm a common-sense kind of person. I see the metaphor and symbolism and importance in that they died doing calligraphy, but my logic tells me they could've done calligraphy for a much longer period of time, with a greater enjoyment (vs none, being dead) if they had just made a slight effort to survive. It's important to me. You disagree. Congratulations.

I am a movie snob, perhaps. However, in this case, you really didn't 'get' the movie. You've admitted it yourself you don't get cultural references. You also apparently failed to appreciate the entire reason the fights are so fantastical. I'd say don't be precious about it... you really missed it this time, embrace it. Own your lack of understanding.

I did "get it". I "got" the metaphors, I "got" the symbolism, the hidden meanings, the nuances, the colors, the storytelling, I got it ALL. I just didn't LIKE it. How hard is that to understand? Is it entirely possible that you're just WRONG in that EVERYONE in the entire world has to enjoy a movie in the same way you do simply because they "get it"? How fucking arrogant..

I thought he (Li) said no more to the martial arts movies, after Fearless?

He did. He's most likely still going to be IN movies, he just won't be the main character I suppose.

I wasn't keen on it either, the fight scenes in it are good, but there's very few and the whole love story part pisses me off. I switch off at that point. Yes there's a fair bit of wires used but there's also some proper fighting too unlike Hero.

Mhm - I also didn't like the ending. She jumped off the fucking mountain and mentioned an old legend saying her wish would come true. I'll get called names for "not getting it", even though I really do, but I realize the logical side and say "Y'know, you can be with him if you, just, um, don't kill yourself."

Why has Stephen Chow not been mentioned!?

For god's sake he's the best of Jackie Chan and Jet Li combined.

He has been mentioned. GG

He's not considered a serious MA Hero because both his movies were comedic and largely CGI/wire, and in Kung Fu Hustle he doesn't actually do any kung fu until the last ten or so minutes of the movie, and even then it's not REALLY kung fu, it's more like, The Matrix.

He's not considered a serious MA Hero because both his movies were comedic and largely CGI/wire, and in Kung Fu Hustle he doesn't actually do any kung fu until the last ten or so minutes of the movie, and even then it's not REALLY kung fu, it's more like, The Matrix.

Genres are more than capable of evolving with time, and The Matrix is largely considered a sci-fiction/kung fu movie. At least the first one anyway.

It's done throughout. Once the axes show up at Pig Stye Ally the movie breaks into heavy martial arts with even heavier wiring and cgi.

Genres are more than capable of evolving with time, and The Matrix is largely considered a sci-fiction/kung fu movie. At least the first one anyway.

It's done throughout. Once the axes show up at Pig Stye Ally the movie breaks into heavy martial arts with even heavier wiring and cgi.

Right, but I prefer my MA Heroes to be capable of actual martial arts without manufactured assistance. The genre may one day evolve to where it's ALL CGI and wires, and that'll be a sad day.

Right, but I prefer my MA Heroes to be capable of actual martial arts without manufactured assistance. The genre may one day evolve to where it's ALL CGI and wires, and that'll be a sad day.

It'll still look good though, and that's all that really matters in entertainment. :D

It'll still look good though, and that's all that really matters in entertainment. :D

If that were true, I would enjoy Tom Cruise's movies.

If that were true, I would enjoy Tom Cruise's movies.

Nothing looks good with that turd in front of it.

Nothing looks good with that turd in front of it.

And the turd of fake martial arts is just as equivalent, I'd say.