NationStates Jolt Archive

Because it might offend Muslim students (it would contradict what their parents teach them at home).

Schools are dropping the Holocaust from history lessons to avoid offending Muslim pupils, a Government backed study has revealed.

It found some teachers are reluctant to cover the atrocity for fear of upsetting students whose beliefs include Holocaust denial.

There is also resistance to tackling the 11th century Crusades - where Christians fought Muslim armies for control of Jerusalem - because lessons often contradict what is taught in local mosques…

It found some teachers are dropping courses covering the Holocaust at the earliest opportunity over fears Muslim pupils might express anti-Semitic and anti-Israel reactions in class.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23391188-details/Teachers+drop+the+Holocaust+to+avoid+offending+Muslims/article.do

This sounds more like teachers who are afraid of confrontation than about any particular need to be conciliatory.

Either way, it's pretty stupid.

Because it might offend Muslim students (it would contradict what their parents teach them at home).



http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23391188-details/Teachers+drop+the+Holocaust+to+avoid+offending+Muslims/article.do

Pure, unfettered horseshit. Next we'll stop teaching about the Crusades.

Hell keeps getting colder and colder, man :p

Pure, unfettered horseshit. Next we'll stop teaching about the Crusades.

Hell keeps getting colder and colder, man :p

Maybe we'll stop teaching science, for fear of offending Christians...

That's the foulest, most disgustingly, blatantly racist thing I have ever heard. It's stupid, foul, islamophobic, and generally just fucking uneducated thing I've ever heard.

That's an odd story. It claims in the opening paragraph that "Schools are dropping the Holocaust from history lessons to avoid offending Muslim pupils, a Government-backed study has revealed," but then gives only a single example of a school that has done so, and doesn't say anything else about it. The examples they use are of individual teachers who have done so, which is a bad idea, but is a far cry from the opening statement of the article, which makes it sound like a systemic problem.

And then there's your ridiculous thread title, which makes it sound like this is happening on orders from above--it is worded as a command, after all--when what the article seems to be talking about is some cases of teachers feeling intimidated (by Christians as well as Muslims apparently).

I'd be willing to bet that there's more to this story than this article is letting on.

Maybe we'll stop teaching science, for fear of offending Christians...

There are plenty of Christians who are all for this already :rolleyes:

That's an odd story. It claims in the opening paragraph that "Schools are dropping the Holocaust from history lessons to avoid offending Muslim pupils, a Government-backed study has revealed," but then gives only a single example of a school that has done so, and doesn't say anything else about it. The examples they use are of individual teachers who have done so, which is a bad idea, but is a far cry from the opening statement of the article, which makes it sound like a systemic problem.

And then there's your ridiculous thread title, which makes it sound like this is happening on orders from above--it is worded as a command, after all--when what the article seems to be talking about is some cases of teachers feeling intimidated (by Christians as well as Muslims apparently).

I'd be willing to bet that there's more to this story than this article is letting on.

Want me to post the one about the school that took the Three Little Pigs out of their play?

The title is supposed to give you the idea that perhaps they're right - we should stop being truthful about history, and just teach them whatever might not offend their parents (which might be next to nothing).

Obviously, sarcasm is not your strong point.

If the article only mentions one school, that's one school. I suppose then, that is OK with you.

I'm sorry they didn't post the whole study in its full text - but if they're saying that the study found this, I bet it's more than one school.

A third school found itself 'strongly challenged by some Christian parents for their treatment of the Arab-Israeli conflict-and the history of the state of Israel that did not accord with the teachings of their denomination'.
Looks like Christians are in a twizzle about it as well.

People should stop letting their imaginary friends dictate what can be taught in schools.

Maybe we'll stop teaching science, for fear of offending Christians...

No, we stop teaching about sex and give them "alternative" theories for fear of offending Christians.

Your attempt to imply a school would never do something like this for christians is absurd.

Looks like Christians are in a twizzle about it as well.

People should stop letting their imaginary friends dictate what can be taught in schools.

Indeed.

But I would imagine that teachers are far more afraid of what the Muslim parents might do.

Even though no Muslim parents have done anything to a school - but the unreasoned fear is causing the teachers to be stupid.

Am I the only person who thinks schools might want to start consulting someone who is actually familiar with the beliefs of a religion before they do this shit?

Am I the only person who thinks schools might want to start consulting someone who is actually familiar with the beliefs of a religion before they do this shit?

The school should do nothing of the kind.

Teach the truth. If someone is offended by it, fuck them.

Alright, now is the time for the bing shocker.:eek:

We teach of the Armenian holocaust, the resistance offered by the Christains against them, the north African Christain rebellion led by women, and teach of the atrocities commited during the Islamic conquest.

Even though no Muslim parents have done anything to a school - but the unreasoned fear is causing the teachers to be stupid.

Meh, reminds me of that opera which got canceled for fear of offending muslims, because it showed Mohammed being beheaded, despite the fact that no muslim said anything about it.

Want me to post the one about the school that took the Three Little Pigs out of their play?What would that prove? That school administrators are stupid in other places also?

The title is supposed to give you the idea that perhaps they're right - we should stop being truthful about history, and just teach them whatever might not offend their parents (which might be next to nothing).

Obviously, sarcasm is not your strong point.Oh I got the sarcasm. But I'm also dealing with Mister Fuck-the-Muslims-and-Nuke-them-all here. I have no love for any group who keeps their children ignorant of the world around them, whether they're Muslims who don't want their kids hearing about the Holocaust or Christians who don't want their kids learning about evolution or global warming or that Israel might not be blameless in their little set-to with the Palestinians or any other group like that. So when you start going after someone other than the Muslims, maybe I'll cut you some slack on your use of sarcasm.

If the article only mentions one school, that's one school. I suppose then, that is OK with you.You would be wrong, But then again, you're comfortable in that neck of the woods.

I'm sorry they didn't post the whole study in its full text - but if they're saying that the study found this, I bet it's more than one school.
See, I doubt it, because given the tone of the article, if there had been more than one school involved, the writer would have mentioned it. It's a better story if it's a widespread problem.

What would that prove? That school administrators are stupid in other places also?

Oh I got the sarcasm. But I'm also dealing with Mister Fuck-the-Muslims-and-Nuke-them-all here. I have no love for any group who keeps their children ignorant of the world around them, whether they're Muslims who don't want their kids hearing about the Holocaust or Christians who don't want their kids learning about evolution or global warming or that Israel might not be blameless in their little set-to with the Palestinians or any other group like that. So when you start going after someone other than the Muslims, maybe I'll cut you some slack on your use of sarcasm.

You would be wrong, But then again, you're comfortable in that neck of the woods.


See, I doubt it, because given the tone of the article, if there had been more than one school involved, the writer would have mentioned it. It's a better story if it's a widespread problem.

I guess you missed the word "schools".

I guess you missed the word "schools".

Actually, I didn't. If you go back and read my first post on this, you'll see that I wondered why the first sentence uses the word in the plural, but the rest of the story only mentions one specific example. Now it may well be that there are more who have done it, but the article is inconsistent on that point.

You know, maybe if you read your own bullshit critically, you might not make such an ass of yourself so often.

Actually, I didn't. If you go back and read my first post on this, you'll see that I wondered why the first sentence uses the word in the plural, but the rest of the story only mentions one specific example. Now it may well be that there are more who have done it, but the article is inconsistent on that point.

You know, maybe if you read your own bullshit critically, you might not make such an ass of yourself so often.

Frankly, I don't have a problem with the article.

You just seem to be looking for any toehold you can find to say that these sorts of things aren't happening.

I scanned through the people who where supposed to have supported this study and didn't find anything. The sites that are reporting this are few at best and all seem to reference The Mail. All in all, I can't really say that this is coming spin free or not. This surely seems like a much larger problem:
The researchers also warned that a lack of subject knowledge among teachers - particularly at primary level - was leading to history being taught in a 'shallow way leading to routine and superficial learning'.

Lessons in difficult topics were too often 'bland, simplistic and unproblematic' and bored pupils.

I'd have to say the teachers not knowing their shit is a far greater concern than if a teacher is going to have to deal with a child denying the lesson.

Frankly, I don't have a problem with the article.

You just seem to be looking for any toehold you can find to say that these sorts of things aren't happening.

No, I'm not, and you can't find word one of anything I've written in this thread to back up that assertion. What I sad from the very beginning is that there are inconsistencies in the article. Unlike you, I'm not jumping to any conclusion about what is or isn't happening in those classrooms. I don't know, and I don't presume to know. But apparently, questioning the way a story is reported means that you must automatically reject all of it--well that works if you're a simpleton. I am not a simpleton.

If the Department for Education and Skills published such a study, they're being very quiet about it. I can't find any mention of such on their homepage.

I wonder if this is just like the last Muslims want to ruin education in the UK thread that EO did... that one was shown to be empty as well.

I wonder if this is just like the last Muslims want to ruin education in the UK thread that EO did... that one was shown to be empty as well.

As will this one.

I wonder if this is just like the last Muslims want to ruin education in the UK thread that EO did... that one was shown to be empty as well.

EO's threads are like chocolate truffles. Full of empty calories...wait a minute...*looks closer*

No, no wait...no, those are horse turds.

Never mind.

Maybe we'll stop teaching science, for fear of offending Christians...

Why would that offend Christians?
:confused:

Clearly it never happened. Not because it might not have happened, but because it is simply too awful to think about, so we'd all prefer a world in which death factories are not historically significant.

But those who support this type of revisionism shouldn't be surprised when it comes back and bites them on the ass.

EO's threads are like chocolate truffles. Full of empty calories...wait a minute...*looks closer*

No, no wait...no, those are horse turds.

Never mind.

You've been chowing down on horse turds? Ewwwww.

Clearly it never happened. Not because it might not have happened, but because it is simply too awful to think about, so we'd all prefer a world in which death factories are not historically significant.

But those who support this type of revisionism shouldn't be surprised when it comes back and bites them on the ass.
Well, I din't know about you, but personally I prefer to get backup on my facts before I start baying and protesting.

Especially if the guy who has posted this is coming in screaming "OMFG! The Muslims are doing X!" and has been shown, multiple times, to use questionable and inaccurate sources.

It MAY have happened, but until I see a good source that has, amoung other things a byline, I'm going to treat this as Yet Another Eve Online Anti-Muslim Thread (YAEOAMT).

Holicaust deniers are made up of about I'm guessing 5% of the entire world... counting the muslims.

Pardon the slang but, "Grow a pair" Britain.

Sadly this just makes more people "Buy in" to the
"EVIL MUZZIES ARE OUT TO KILL US ALL!!" Idea.

Which causes MORE such incidents.

You've been chowing down on horse turds? Ewwwww.

That's essentially the taste any of EO's Muslim-bashing threads leaves in one's mouth, yes.

And before you ask...yes, yes I have. And no, I don't want to talk about it.

Well, I din't know about you, but personally I prefer to get backup on my facts before I start baying and protesting.

Especially if the guy who has posted this is coming in screaming "OMFG! The Muslims are doing X!" and has been shown, multiple times, to use questionable and inaccurate sources.

It MAY have happened, but until I see a good source that has, amoung other things a byline, I'm going to treat this as Yet Another Eve Online Anti-Muslim Thread (YAEOAMT).

It's apparently from the evening standard, which used to be a fairly reliable source of news. At least when I lived in london it was.

And hey, maybe it is rubbish, but I won't retract my point of view that the holocaust is a historically important event.

And hey, maybe it is rubbish, but I won't retract my point of view that the holocaust is a historically important event.
Oh I agree. I wouldn't ever say that not teaching the Holocaust is acceptable.

I'm just leery of going off about it given the poster and being unable to find another source on this.

Well, besides it's orgin at the Daily Mail.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=445979&in_page_id=1770&ito=newsnow

This sounds more like teachers who are afraid of confrontation than about any particular need to be conciliatory.

Either way, it's pretty stupid.

Pure, unfettered horseshit. Next we'll stop teaching about the Crusades.

Hell keeps getting colder and colder, man :p

Maybe we'll stop teaching science, for fear of offending Christians...

PC rears it's ugly head.

Also, unless the curriculum has actually been changed in any given jurisdiction...NOT teaching the Holocaust (assuming it's in the curriculum in the first place) is actually a very serious breach of contract. One of the few ways a unionised teacher can lose his or her job almost immediately.

A curricular change like that would actually be something to get worried about.

Also, unless the curriculum has actually been changed in any given jurisdiction...NOT teaching the Holocaust (assuming it's in the curriculum in the first place) is actually a very serious breach of contract. One of the few ways a unionised teacher can lose his or her job almost immediately.

A curricular change like that would actually be something to get worried about.

Apparently it isn't required but it will be-
A DfES spokesman said: "It's up to schools to make a judgment on non-compulsory parts of the national curriculum. It is a broad framework and there is scope for schools to make their own decisions."

Teaching of the Holocaust is expected to become compulsory under the new national curriculum from next year.
Guardian. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/secondworldwar/story/0,,2048082,00.html)

Also, unless the curriculum has actually been changed in any given jurisdiction...NOT teaching the Holocaust (assuming it's in the curriculum in the first place) is actually a very serious breach of contract. One of the few ways a unionised teacher can lose his or her job almost immediately.

A curricular change like that would actually be something to get worried about.

I fink this it the UK, so that type of analysis might not be relevant. Not least because there isn't a single union for teachers in the UK. Or indeed you don't have to be in a union in the first place these days.

Frankly, I don't have a problem with the article.
Why, of course you don't. Anything written that includes the words 'Nasty', 'Evil', 'Muslims' and 'Destroying our way of life' is all you want from a story.
I wouldn't be surprised if you have google set to those four words/phrases.

Things like 'objective', 'well-researched' and 'factual' can be - and regularly are - ignored.

Well truth is about bare facts, but it is also about context, and in the context of WWII atrocities, the Jews (Holocaust) are a minority in how many actually died, in comparison to mass murders of millions of Slavs in the Soviet Union and other events. 'Holocaust denial' is a buzz word mostly used by pro-Zionist groups to denouce their political opponents and use the Holocaust as a sympathy card for gaining support for Zionist foreign policy. In reality those they accuse of such aren't actualy deniers of the Holocaust, but simply people who put it in context as the minority of deaths in WWII.

The 'Holocaust' should be taken into the greater context of the pretext upon which it is used against the Palestinians. Primary and High schools (and college to a lesser extent) do not deal with the reality, that is why when most people think of Hitler they think of killing Jews, they don't think of communists, social democrats, gypsies, homosexuals etc. It's acceptable to teach that the Jews were killed in great numbers, but it should be taken again in context.

'By its nature, Zionism concentrates ultra-nationalism, chauvinism and racial intolerance, excuse for territorial occupation and annexation, military opportunism, cult of political promiscuousness and irresponsibility, demagogy and ideological diversion, dirty tactics and perfidy. Absurd are attempts of Zionist ideologists to present criticizing them, or condemning the aggressive politics of the Israel's ruling circles, as antisemitic.'

The Holocaust should be taken in the modern political context of the way it has been perverted also.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykd-syzZ4ZY

Well truth is about bare facts, but it is also about context, and in the context of WWII atrocities, the Jews (Holocaust) are a minority in how many actually died, in comparison to mass murders of millions of Slavs in the Soviet Union and other events. 'Holocaust denial' is a buzz word mostly used by pro-Zionist groups to denouce their political opponents and use the Holocaust as a sympathy card for gaining support for Zionist foreign policy. In reality those they accuse of such aren't actualy deniers of the Holocaust, but simply people who put it in context as the minority of deaths in WWII.

The 'Holocaust' should be taken into the greater context of the pretext upon which it is used against the Palestinians. Primary and High schools (and college to a lesser extent) do not deal with the reality, that is why when most people think of Hitler they think of killing Jews, they don't think of communists, social democrats, gypsies, homosexuals etc. It's acceptable to teach that the Jews were killed in great numbers, but it should be taken again in context.

'By its nature, Zionism concentrates ultra-nationalism, chauvinism and racial intolerance, excuse for territorial occupation and annexation, military opportunism, cult of political promiscuousness and irresponsibility, demagogy and ideological diversion, dirty tactics and perfidy. Absurd are attempts of Zionist ideologists to present criticizing them, or condemning the aggressive politics of the Israel's ruling circles, as antisemitic.'

The Holocaust should be taken in the modern political context of the way it has been perverted also.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykd-syzZ4ZY

Well the plain facts are that the vast majority of WWII deaths were allied civilian casualties. Not axis soldiers or civilians, despite what revisionists would have you believe.

And it isn't the point anyway. The germans constructed death factories for specific ethnic groups. To my knowledge that type of industrial slaughter has never happened before.

Well truth is about bare facts, but it is also about context, and in the context of WWII atrocities, the Jews (Holocaust) are a minority in how many actually died, in comparison to mass murders of millions of Slavs in the Soviet Union and other events. 'Holocaust denial' is a buzz word mostly used by pro-Zionist groups to denouce their political opponents and use the Holocaust as a sympathy card for gaining support for Zionist foreign policy. In reality those they accuse of such aren't actualy deniers of the Holocaust, but simply people who put it in context as the minority of deaths in WWII.

The 'Holocaust' should be taken into the greater context of the pretext upon which it is used against the Palestinians. Primary and High schools (and college to a lesser extent) do not deal with the reality, that is why when most people think of Hitler they think of killing Jews, they don't think of communists, social democrats, gypsies, homosexuals etc. It's acceptable to teach that the Jews were killed in great numbers, but it should be taken again in context.

'By its nature, Zionism concentrates ultra-nationalism, chauvinism and racial intolerance, excuse for territorial occupation and annexation, military opportunism, cult of political promiscuousness and irresponsibility, demagogy and ideological diversion, dirty tactics and perfidy. Absurd are attempts of Zionist ideologists to present criticizing them, or condemning the aggressive politics of the Israel's ruling circles, as antisemitic.'

The Holocaust should be taken in the modern political context of the way it has been perverted also.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykd-syzZ4ZY

Is it true that all Nazis have penises the size of a pencil eraser? I imagine you can just look down and check . . .

The school should do nothing of the kind.

Teach the truth. If someone is offended by it, fuck them.Let me see.. In the year 2217.. schools should be teaching that in 2003 the US started an illegal war, resulting in the death of 2000000 Iraqi men, women, and children.

or something along those lines.. right?

Let me see.. In the year 2217.. schools should be teaching that in 2003 the US started an illegal war, resulting in the death of 2000000 Iraqi men, women, and children.

No, of course not, it doesn't matter if Arabs die, only if Westerners and Israelis do.

*SNIP*
Meanwhile, off in Lala Land...

*sigh*

Not this shit again.

Apparently it isn't required but it will be-

Guardian. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/secondworldwar/story/0,,2048082,00.html)

Thanks to that link, I was able to find the actual study (http://www.dfes.gov.uk/research/data/uploadfiles/RW100.pdf)--it's a pdf file--and it seems that everyone keyed in on one section on page 15 of a 48 page document. In fact, it sounds like the original article flat out lifted sections of prose and didn't credit the authors of the study, but that's another discussion. My point is that the article seems to be a sensationalist look at a minor piece of a much larger document, and certainly isn't considered an imminent concern by the authors of the piece, who are basically looking at best practices for the teaching of history. Sure, teachers ought to be supported when faced with these sorts of objections from parents, and the inclusion of the Holocaust as a required part of the curriculum is a strong step in that direction, but this seems to be much ado about very little.

This is just what the world needs, crazy muslims taking ideas from crazy christians.

The lunatics are taking over the asylum. Will everyone who is not LG please evacuate.

Because it might offend Muslim students (it would contradict what their parents teach them at home).



http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23391188-details/Teachers+drop+the+Holocaust+to+avoid+offending+Muslims/article.do

Wow, Whispering Legs, i find myself agreeing with you quite a bit, a pleasant surprise.
That's the third time, iirc.

This is just what the world needs, crazy muslims taking ideas from crazy christians.

The lunatics are taking over the asylum. Will everyone who is not LG please evacuate.

Ifreann, the NS laxative. :)

Ifreann, the NS laxative. :)

Siggin' dis.

Want me to post the one about the school that took the Three Little Pigs out of their play?

Yes, because iIrc than after they took them out they consulted with Muslims who weren't bothered by the pigs and put them back in.

Well truth is about bare facts, but it is also about context, and in the context of WWII atrocities, the Jews (Holocaust) are a minority in how many actually died, in comparison to mass murders of millions of Slavs in the Soviet Union and other events. 'Holocaust denial' is a buzz word mostly used by pro-Zionist groups to denouce their political opponents and use the Holocaust as a sympathy card for gaining support for Zionist foreign policy. In reality those they accuse of such aren't actualy deniers of the Holocaust, but simply people who put it in context as the minority of deaths in WWII.

The 'Holocaust' should be taken into the greater context of the pretext upon which it is used against the Palestinians. Primary and High schools (and college to a lesser extent) do not deal with the reality, that is why when most people think of Hitler they think of killing Jews, they don't think of communists, social democrats, gypsies, homosexuals etc. It's acceptable to teach that the Jews were killed in great numbers, but it should be taken again in context.

'By its nature, Zionism concentrates ultra-nationalism, chauvinism and racial intolerance, excuse for territorial occupation and annexation, military opportunism, cult of political promiscuousness and irresponsibility, demagogy and ideological diversion, dirty tactics and perfidy. Absurd are attempts of Zionist ideologists to present criticizing them, or condemning the aggressive politics of the Israel's ruling circles, as antisemitic.'

The Holocaust should be taken in the modern political context of the way it has been perverted also.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykd-syzZ4ZY

And you wonder why IDF calls you an anti-semite... :rolleyes:

Siggin' dis.

You did say you were patient, after all.
No disappointments! :)




EDIT:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=522886

Patience, of course!
It was meant to be.

But I would imagine that teachers are far more afraid of what the Muslim parents might do.


Bull. I fail as many Muslim students as Christian. (I also pass as many Muslim students as I pass Christian).
We've had interesting discussions about Christianity in the context of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, Shakespeare, Beowulf, et cetera.

Want to know how many complaints/problems I've had? Zero.

Much bigger question: Is there like an industry out there of people who search the internet for stories like this so people can take the links and post them on a forum?

Or does Eve just like the Evening Standard so much that he searches through all the latest recipes and "lifestyle" columns to find a gem like this?

thats stupid
screw the teachers who are too chikenshit too teach
and screw the muslim student if they can't accept facts


Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Much bigger question: Is there like an industry out there of people who search the internet for stories like this so people can take the links and post them on a forum?

Or does Eve just like the Evening Standard so much that he searches through all the latest recipes and "lifestyle" columns to find a gem like this?

This question deserves its own thread.

thats stupid
screw the teachers who are too chikenshit too teach
and screw the muslim student if they can't accept facts

The irony... it burns... ;)

Much bigger question: Is there like an industry out there of people who search the internet for stories like this so people can take the links and post them on a forum?

Or does Eve just like the Evening Standard so much that he searches through all the latest recipes and "lifestyle" columns to find a gem like this?

Erm, yes.

Much bigger question: Is there like an industry out there of people who search the internet for stories like this so people can take the links and post them on a forum?

Or does Eve just like the Evening Standard so much that he searches through all the latest recipes and "lifestyle" columns to find a gem like this?

Yeah--they're called bloggers, and some of them make decent money.

Bull. I fail as many Muslim students as Christian. (I also pass as many Muslim students as I pass Christian).
We've had interesting discussions about Christianity in the context of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, Shakespeare, Beowulf, et cetera.

Want to know how many complaints/problems I've had? Zero.

O thats you liberals with your "facts" again...

Yes, because iIrc than after they took them out they consulted with Muslims who weren't bothered by the pigs and put them back in.

That's right - but it does show that irrational fear is driving people to compromise - when they would never have compromised with any other religious group.

O thats you liberals with your "facts" again...

Tell you what, you'll be the first to know if my classroom gets blown up....

...then again, in that case it's more likely to have been Lunatic Goofballs than Muslim students or their parents.

Lunacy.

...though, while teaching holocaust they should *also* remember to teach that holocaust didn't only target jews and that while jew casualties were huge there were other ethnicities & nationalities that also suffered similar prosecution and loss in Europe during WWII, especially during Nazi occupation.

The following from Holocaust wiki-article about the death-toll caused by Nazi eugenics, genocide, occupation & invasion...

As part of the holocaust:
An estimated 5 to 6 million Jews,including 3 million Polish Jews
1.8 – 1.9 million Christian Poles and other (non-Jewish) Poles (estimate includes civilians killed as a result of Nazi aggression and occupation but does not include the military casualties of Nazi aggression or the victims of the Soviet occupation of eastern Poland and of deportations to Central Asia and Siberia)
200,000–800,000 Roma & Sinti (Gypsies)
200,000–300,000 people with disabilities
80,000-200,000 European Freemasons
100,000 communists
10,000–25,000 homosexual men
2,500–5,000 Jehovah's Witnesses

Plus additional non-holocaust related or direct battlefield deaths:
3.5–6 million other Slavic civilians
2.5–4 million Soviet POWs
1–1.5 million political dissidents

Additionally, the Ustaša regime, the Nazis' allies in Croatia, conducted its own campaign of mass extermination against the Serbs in the areas which it controlled, resulting in the deaths of 500,000–1.2 million Serbs

edit:
Of the total cvilian deaths in WWII Jews comprised 10-15%...Civilians (primarily Eastern Orthodox?) in SU ~25% and in China 35-40%.

Because it might offend Muslim students (it would contradict what their parents teach them at home).



http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23391188-details/Teachers+drop+the+Holocaust+to+avoid+offending+Muslims/article.do

When was the last team American schoolchildren were taught about how the nice ol' pure Pilgrims actually raped and killed off the Indians, instead of the Thanksgiving story? How about the last time americans were taught about how we bombed residential cities in WW2 to cause max. casualties, instead of the story of fighting for freedom?

How about American schools start teaching some truth. What? might it offend some patriots or something?

When was the last team American schoolchildren were taught about how the nice ol' pure Pilgrims actually raped and killed off the Indians, instead of the Thanksgiving story? How about the last time americans were taught about how we bombed residential cities in WW2 to cause max. casualties, instead of the story of fighting for freedom?

How about American schools start teaching some truth. What? might it offend some patriots or something?

Actually, most of the Indians in the area of Plymouth were already dead from disease by the time the Pilgrims showed up. It was more a case of mutual survival that caused them to cooperate.

Sure, the Pilgrims looted the homes of dead Indians, but they hadn't killed them themselves.

Don't know where you went to school, but I was taught about what happened there, and what happened to Hamburg and Dresden.

I can't help it if your school district sucks.

Tell you what, you'll be the first to know if my classroom gets blown up....

...then again, in that case it's more likely to have been Lunatic Goofballs than Muslim students or their parents.

O no doubt there'll be a thread on it....probably blaming the muslim influence for you/him and the gas leak. Along with something like "Muslim Hall Monitors Cite Sharia Law"...

Not that the rabid legions of Islamophiles general buffoons will pay the slightest heed, but why should we give a flying fuck about the sensibilities of those who are offended by the truth?

Frankly, I don't have a problem with the article.

You just seem to be looking for any toehold you can find to say that these sorts of things aren't happening.

No. He's saying that they aren't happening on the scale to which you and your odious thread's title assumes them to be happening. EO, you have a way of being a talking-point mouthpiece no better than the so-called "drive-by" media Rush is always blathering about. You post this thread, all upset about something which, for all you know, only ONE school is actually doing, hoping to stir up either anti-Muslim or anti-teacher (or both) hysteria.

You do this so often, and it's so easy to poke holes in what you post that it has become very difficult to take you at face value. I'm sorry, but that's how it appears to me.

I scanned through the people who where supposed to have supported this study and didn't find anything. The sites that are reporting this are few at best and all seem to reference The Mail. All in all, I can't really say that this is coming spin free or not. This surely seems like a much larger problem:


I'd have to say the teachers not knowing their shit is a far greater concern than if a teacher is going to have to deal with a child denying the lesson.

BINGO.

When I got the education portion of my Music Ed. degree, I saw the quality of students who identified themselves as "social studies" or "histroy" ed majors. I am not exaggerating to say that many weren't exactly concerned with their g.p.a. so much as how they scored either in the game or in the sack.

Thanks to that link, I was able to find the actual study (http://www.dfes.gov.uk/research/data/uploadfiles/RW100.pdf)--it's a pdf file--and it seems that everyone keyed in on one section on page 15 of a 48 page document. In fact, it sounds like the original article flat out lifted sections of prose and didn't credit the authors of the study, but that's another discussion. My point is that the article seems to be a sensationalist look at a minor piece of a much larger document, and certainly isn't considered an imminent concern by the authors of the piece, who are basically looking at best practices for the teaching of history. Sure, teachers ought to be supported when faced with these sorts of objections from parents, and the inclusion of the Holocaust as a required part of the curriculum is a strong step in that direction, but this seems to be much ado about very little.

what the fuck? they took THIS paper on the proper teaching of history in the UK and turned it into an article on "the uk is avoiding offending muslim students"?


its a paper about how to teach controversial history for gods sake!

You can't whitewash history people! History is full of controversy and we should open it up for discussion in classrooms to debate, instead of sweeping it under the rug.

That's right - but it does show that irrational fear is driving one or two people to compromise - when they would never have compromised with any other religious group.

Edited for accuracy.

When was the last team American schoolchildren were taught about how the nice ol' pure Pilgrims actually raped and killed off the Indians, instead of the Thanksgiving story? How about the last time americans were taught about how we bombed residential cities in WW2 to cause max. casualties, instead of the story of fighting for freedom?

How about American schools start teaching some truth. What? might it offend some patriots or something?

The last time? When my junior high English class read Slaughter-House Five. Yes, that was back in 1982-83, but I'm pretty sure that book is still viable in most English class curricula. You learn about the Allied firebombing of Dresden in that book, alongside the Nazi holocaust and POW treatment.

Folks, the simple solution is to call bullshit when you see it. Get involved at the local level. Believe it or not, teachers LOVE involved parents. The problem is, those with no problems or no bones to pick never show up. Those with more skewed priorities tend to make more noise and therefore get all the attention. For every parent who complained about my selection of music (I dared admit the role of Christianity and the Catholic Church in the preservation and inspiration of choral music by choosing pieces with titles like Ave Maria and Gloria in excelsis Deo), at least two dozen were delighted or at least had no problem and never said a word. Who got more attention? The one set of parents who griped, and they only because they were staunch atheists.

You don't have to be SUPER-PARENT to help. Just ask. Any effort, no matter how small, is greatly appreciated.

Because it might offend Patriot students (it would contradict what their parents teach them at home).


Schools are not teaching about native american genocid in history lessons to avoid offending patriot pupils, a Government backed study has revealed.

It found some teachers are reluctant to cover the atrocity for fear of upsetting patriot students whose beliefs include pretending we discovered a land already populated by people.

There is also resistance to tackling the treatment of the people occupying California and other western states - people who were native Spanish speakers and who wrote their state constitution in Spanish - people who are now being treated like they are immigrants instead of Americans, because accepting that latinos are more native than white people might offend some patrios as well.

It found some teachers are taching courses denying the state-sponsored genocide at the earliest opportunity over fears patriot pupils might express racist and biggotted reactions in class.

http://www.ericdigests.org/1996-4/native.htm

what the fuck? they took THIS paper on the proper teaching of history in the UK and turned it into an article on "the uk is avoiding offending muslim students"?


its a paper about how to teach controversial history for gods sake!

Yep. But the media has a liberal bias.

Want me to post the one about the school that took the Three Little Pigs out of their play?

some schools in britain have stopped saying "baa baa black sheep" and are now saying "baa baa green sheep" for fear of not being politically correct.

some schools in britain have stopped saying "baa baa black sheep" and are now saying "baa baa green sheep" for fear of not being politically correct.

Source. I call BS.

some schools in britain have stopped saying "baa baa black sheep" and are now saying "baa baa green sheep" for fear of not being politically correct.

Indeed we have. Millenia of human history all to arrive at this.

Source. I call BS.

Here's two:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4782856.stm
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=379114&in_page_id=1770&in_page_id=1770&expand=true

Partial myth, partial truth. As usual.

We shouldn't be afraid to teach human history the way it really was. Its simply up to the students themselves whether they want to believe it or not.

Here's two:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4782856.stm
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=379114&in_page_id=1770&in_page_id=1770&expand=true

Partial myth, partial truth. As usual.

So what we have is a couple of people overthinking a song about how sheep actually look in the fields, and the education council and black parents saying that it's nonsense. Hmmm... sounds like everyone did their jobs here. And it sounds like the term "stopped" should have been "temporarily and erroneously stopped before being corrected". I know a teacher that taught that we were the result of aliens right before he cracked up. Does that mean I should say "at some schools they are teaching the people come from aliens?"

Thanks to that link, I was able to find the actual study (http://www.dfes.gov.uk/research/data/uploadfiles/RW100.pdf)--it's a pdf file--and it seems that everyone keyed in on one section on page 15 of a 48 page document. In fact, it sounds like the original article flat out lifted sections of prose and didn't credit the authors of the study, but that's another discussion. My point is that the article seems to be a sensationalist look at a minor piece of a much larger document, and certainly isn't considered an imminent concern by the authors of the piece, who are basically looking at best practices for the teaching of history. Sure, teachers ought to be supported when faced with these sorts of objections from parents, and the inclusion of the Holocaust as a required part of the curriculum is a strong step in that direction, but this seems to be much ado about very little.

Bah, I fail at the interwebs. Should have seen that because that is what I was looking for. I suck, oh well. Though not as bad as this being on page 3 and the discussion still going on like it was based on something. Just the same ol' same ol' of nothing out of less than nothing...

Bah, I fail at the interwebs. Should have seen that because that is what I was looking for. I suck, oh well. Though not as bad as this being on page 3 and the discussion still going on like it was based on something. Just the same ol' same ol' of nothing out of less than nothing...

Oh, don't worry. Someone will pop along with another "ebil stoopid muzlims destroying the wurld!!!!" post any minute now.

Oh, don't worry. Someone will pop along with another "ebil stoopid muzlims destroying the wurld!!!!" post any minute now.

Without doubt. The sad thing is is that all EO needs is the noise from this, it's not going to matter that it's empty, he doesn't really have to defend it. But it will come up again as a glancing blow in some other forum that will somehow 'prove' the systematic nature of whatever he's going on about at the time. And it will be just as much bullshit but it might take a while before someone who was paying attention in this thread to come along and dismantle his house of cards.

It's just a bit frustrating that generating noise is what counts as 'truth' these days. The dadaists where right to be afraid...

The school should do nothing of the kind.

Teach the truth. If someone is offended by it, fuck them.

No, what I meant was checking before you do stuff like saying teaching about the holocaust could offend muslim people, or that it should be the three little dogs instead of the three little pigs. Nazz is right. You can't understand what you read worth a damn.

Thanks to that link, I was able to find the actual study (http://www.dfes.gov.uk/research/data/uploadfiles/RW100.pdf)--it's a pdf file--and it seems that everyone keyed in on one section on page 15 of a 48 page document. In fact, it sounds like the original article flat out lifted sections of prose and didn't credit the authors of the study, but that's another discussion. My point is that the article seems to be a sensationalist look at a minor piece of a much larger document, and certainly isn't considered an imminent concern by the authors of the piece, who are basically looking at best practices for the teaching of history. Sure, teachers ought to be supported when faced with these sorts of objections from parents, and the inclusion of the Holocaust as a required part of the curriculum is a strong step in that direction, but this seems to be much ado about very little.

And once again, Nazz owns not-DK.

Once again, free speech and thought is being constricted by political correctness and fear of confrontation. Thank you, society. Everyone's so scared of everyone else that the top fear in this country is no longer anything logical, like dying or maybe an overly oppressive government. It's now been replaced by the fear of offending others and debate. Another step in the left direction.

Because it might offend Muslim students (it would contradict what their parents teach them at home).


I live in a part of the US where parents still try to oppose the teaching of 'evolution' in schools. I personally know people who have taken their kids out of school so that they won't be exposed to such 'anti-Christian propoganda'.

I would be surprised if being a dumbass turned out to be limited to any one religion or culture.

I live in a part of the US where parents still try to oppose the teaching of 'evolution' in schools. I personally know people who have taken their kids out of school so that they won't be exposed to such 'anti-Christian propoganda'.

I would be surprised if being a dumbass turned out to be limited to any one religion or culture.

Exactly correct! This whole affair is stupid, but excessive political correctness is a problem. In my younger cousins school they do "careful shading" instead of colouring inside the lines to reduce feelings of failure. This is nonsense, as being dyspraxic I still can't colour between the lines, and that never left me with any sense of failure. What did was being made fun of by others for various reasons and being shouted at for not being able to write. Political correctness very rarely helps those who need the help.

I live in a part of the US where parents still try to oppose the teaching of 'evolution' in schools. I personally know people who have taken their kids out of school so that they won't be exposed to such 'anti-Christian propoganda'.

I would be surprised if being a dumbass turned out to be limited to any one religion or culture.

I was raised in one of those cultures--my parents didn't home school me, but plenty of other Jehovah's Witness families did, and there were "christian" schools in my area which taught creationism, among other things. Hell, watch the documentary "Jesus Camp" and you'll see it happening on film.

And the thread dies as only an EO thread can with deafening silence once the whopping holes in the original premise are exposed.

And the thread dies as only an EO thread can with deafening silence once the whopping holes in the original premise are exposed.

Really? I don't even think you got the basic premise of the thread, which is that people are overreacting with unreasoned fear to Muslims.

And changing policy.

Even if one school does it, it's too many.

SO much for the whopping holes.

Why don't you go over to the Feinstein is an Unethical person thread and try your luck there?

This is just post-modernism. However hard they try, the government can't be accepting to all religions, because all religions disagree. To grant liberty to one person, you have to take it away from someone else. That, or you accept war and crime.

Choose a religion and stick to it, parliament.

Really? I don't even think you got the basic premise of the thread, which is that people are overreacting with unreasoned fear to Muslims.

Some people. A small minority. I could say people are overreacting with unreasoned fear of muslims based on this thread, but really I'd just be talking about you and that statement would present an equally false picture to your OP.


And changing policy.

Except they aren't, as is pointed out by looking at what actually happened. Some teachers are choosing to stop teaching from a particular curriculum. The policy change that we found occurring was to require that it be taught, not the other way around. But why let the facts get in the way of a good islamaphobe rant.


Even if one school does it, it's too many.

Yes. Yes. Of course, there are much more broad and important problems pointed out by that study, but, hey, what's imporant is that you express your sentiments about muslims.

But, hey, remember, you're just reporting on the biggest issues of the day, the fact that your 'issues' are almost always about Muslims, come from any newspaper that you can find that is bashing Muslims, and are often debunked, couldn't possibly be evidence that rather than you just happening across them, you seek them out and with no further thought post them here with claims that are easily debunked with just a modicum of research. Research The Nazz is willing to do and you aren't.



SO much for the whopping holes.

Really? Let's look at your assertions from the OP alone...

Title: Stop Teaching the Truth

This implies that somebody ordered them to stop teaching the truth or some equivalent. Of course, as we've shown, the article nor the study makes no such assertion. Given that a little research shows that any teachers who are not properly teaching the holocaust are being forced to, the article would properly be "Keep Teaching the Truth" as is policy and always has been, only now it's being codified. Hole #1

First line of the article:
"schools"

So if it's ONE school, then you article is presenting a false image. Hole #2. Kind of like me saying that we found sites on the internet where EO presents a false image of muslims and people's reaction to them, when it reality it's just one and using the plural makes it appear more broad than it is.

The article also doesn't have a byline nor does it cite the study. Hole #3

The article implies the study is about this problem, when in fact the purpose of the study, the focus of the study and the conclusions of the study have NOTHING to do with what the article claims. Hole #4.

Should I continue or is 4 whopping holes enough?

Why don't you go over to the Feinstein is an Unethical person thread and try your luck there?

You mean you've given up supporting getting handed your behind in this thread so you'd prefer it if we handed it to you in another thread? Why? You know you'll flee as soon as you get owned there too. I can cite I don't know a dozen threads where you've done so. It's your SOP.

This is the way the thread ends.

This is the way the thread ends.

This is the way the thread ends.

Not with a bang, but a whimper. :p

Edit: Thus is shown my undying love for T. S. Elliot

Maybe we'll stop teaching science, for fear of offending Christians...

Too late, they already did that in Kansas and you made no thinly-veiled blanket statement against Christians.

Too late, they already did that in Kansas and you made no thinly-veiled blanket statement against Christians.

*ahem*

oh snap!

Too late, they already did that in Kansas and you made no thinly-veiled blanket statement against Christians.What exactly have they done in Kansas? Stopped teaching physics, chemistry, biology??

I remember one time (I don't think it was on NSG.) this guy posted a link to a website talking about the teachings of Mohommad, which basically, according to the website, were beating woman, killing people, burning villages, shooting Bambi's mother, etc. Anyway, one guy had the thought to check the "About Us" section. It was ran by a bunch of Christian types.

Really? I don't even think you got the basic premise of the thread, which is that people are overreacting with unreasoned fear to Muslims.


"People "as in one or two. And presumably if they are its due at least in part to the sterling work being done by you and your associates in the Fear-Monger Guild.

What exactly have they done in Kansas? Stopped teaching physics, chemistry, biology??

Stopped teaching Evolution. Because God created Man in His Own Perfect Image, not raised him up from a bunch of damn, dirty apes.

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/evolution.htm

Maybe we'll stop teaching science, for fear of offending Christians...

That already happened in Kansas :)

Because it might offend Muslim students (it would contradict what their parents teach them at home).



http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23391188-details/Teachers+drop+the+Holocaust+to+avoid+offending+Muslims/article.do


Sad. If this spreads the holocaust may be fogotten in europe. I hope not.

REACT!
Don't look through it!
There's no need to prove it.

(To the tune of "Relax")

Stopped teaching Evolution. Because God created Man in His Own Perfect Image, not raised him up from a bunch of damn, dirty apes.

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/evolution.htmHow and why does something like this happen? Why is there no public rage in the US against this? Or is everything and -one already so infested with "Christianity" ? All the Nobel Prizes that have gone to the US seem to be worth nothing, if their population is on such a level of 'education'.

How and why does something like this happen? Why is there no public rage in the US against this? Or is everything and -one already so infested with "Christianity" ? All the Nobel Prizes that have gone to the US seem to be worth nothing, if their population is on such a level of 'education'.

Becuase America is where Christianity is a big, ugly wife-beater. It's something that has annoyed me as a Catholic...

How and why does something like this happen? Why is there no public rage in the US against this? Or is everything and -one already so infested with "Christianity" ? All the Nobel Prizes that have gone to the US seem to be worth nothing, if their population is on such a level of 'education'.

There has been public rage, and the people who were elected to the Kansas School Board who voted for ID inclusion in the curriculum were largely tossed out of office. You might want to learn a little about the situation before you take a swipe at an entire country.

There has been public rage, and the people who were elected to the Kansas School Board who voted for ID inclusion in the curriculum were largely tossed out of office. You might want to learn a little about the situation before you take a swipe at an entire country.Well, I cannot imagine such things happen in Europe. Can you?

Well, I cannot imagine such things happen in Europe. Can you?
Yes.

http://www.the-scientist.com/news/20040428/04/

"Tens of thousands of Italians have expressed their disagreement with a plan by the minister of education, universities, and research, Letizia Moratti, to ban the teaching of evolutionary theory to young teenagers."

And that was just what popped up on a quick Google search.

There are Creationists and anti-evolutionists everywhere. Happily, there are also scientists everywhere. :D

Yes.

http://www.the-scientist.com/news/20040428/04/

"Tens of thousands of Italians have expressed their disagreement with a plan by the minister of education, universities, and research, Letizia Moratti, to ban the teaching of evolutionary theory to young teenagers."

And that was just what popped up on a quick Google search.

There are Creationists and anti-evolutionists everywhere. Happily, there are also scientists everywhere. :DThe sad part is then that scientists and rational folks in general aren't as loud as are the 'religious' folks.

How and why does something like this happen? Why is there no public rage in the US against this? Or is everything and -one already so infested with "Christianity" ? All the Nobel Prizes that have gone to the US seem to be worth nothing, if their population is on such a level of 'education'.

There is public outrage of course and these attempts to override evolution keep losing. But don't let facts get in your way, my friend. Just carry on connecting two things that are completely unconnected like Nobel prizes and public education.

Well, I cannot imagine such things happen in Europe. Can you?

Yes. It has happened and does happen with approximately the same frequency or have you not been readinng the thread? Nevermind. We all know the answer.

Sad. If this spreads the holocaust may be fogotten in europe. I hope not.

Read the goddamn thread. The entire article was torn to pieces, and then the pieces were set on fire, and the ashes launched into deep space, where they were eaten by Galactus.

Since this thread seems to deal with the issue of islamophobia quite nicely, I'd just like to point out that many of the comments made about "religious people", especially, in this case, Christians, actually refer only to certain groups: huge numbers of Christians, for example, are perfectly happy with evolutionary theory. Many teach it. Lots of Christians don't feel any need to believe that the Genesis creation stories are literally true - only that they're symbolically true. Incidentally, science there agrees in some respects: the order of events in Genesis and evolution aren't too different.

As I understand it (I don't claim to be an expert!), Islamic teaching is more literal; there are, however, varying beliefs within the religion - as there are with most religions.

It's important to remember that person A saying that X is against the teachings of Y doesn't stop person B from disagreeing. It's not fair to talk about anti-evolutionism as a Christian movement: indeed, the Catholic Church, for example, considers evolutionism an acceptable theory, while the Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams, has actually said that creationism should not be taught in schools:

In a newspaper interview, Dr Williams leader of the Anglican Church, said: "I think creationism is a kind of category mistake. Whatever the biblical account of creation is, it's not a theory alongside other theories. It's not as if the writer of Genesis or whatever sat down and said: 'Well, how am I going to explain all this ... I know: In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth'.

"So if creationism is presented as a stark alternative theory alongside other theories, I think there's been a jarring of categories. It's not what it is about."

Sorry if this seems off-topic, but this seemed like a good place to put it.

Really? I don't even think you got the basic premise of the thread, which is that people are overreacting with unreasoned fear to Muslims.


Ha... ha... ha...

You mean like how most of your posts are about the evil Muslims.

How you like to accuse other people of being "forum Jihadists."

That kind of unreasoned fear? Islamophobia?

Sorry if this seems off-topic, but this seemed like a good place to put it.

This is NS. Off-topic is practically on topic here.

I'd have to say the teachers not knowing their shit is a far greater concern than if a teacher is going to have to deal with a child denying the lesson.

Probably not unrelated. I can understand how a lack of knowledge and understanding on the part of a teacher might lead to them avoiding potentially controversial topics because they lack the background needed to deal with objections and questions constructively.

Probably not unrelated. I can understand how a lack of knowledge and understanding on the part of a teacher might lead to them avoiding potentially controversial topics because they lack the background needed to deal with objections and questions constructively.

Yes, and that is what the study actually concluded. Now that would be a new article that wasn't ignorant, one that discussed how these kinds of fear are simply due to a lack of subject knowledge and bigotry and not some greater problem with either the students or the administration.

Yes, and that is what the study actually concluded. Now that would be a new article that wasn't ignorant, one that discussed how these kinds of fear are simply due to a lack of subject knowledge and bigotry and not some greater problem with either the students or the administration.

But that wouldn't allow for the "evil Jihadists" spin. And we can't have that, now can we?

The moral of the story is that the teachers and schools need better training so they are ready for controversy - whether it's about the holocaust, the crusades, the slave trade or Israel. It's important that the teachers feel up to the task of discussing all historical periods and events in a balanced and sensitive way.

This is what the thread should be about but isn't, due to the weak and loaded OP...

The lunatics are taking over the asylum. Will everyone who is not LG please evacuate.

George Carlin once said something along the lines of "I don't see the problem with the lunatics running the asylum. It seems like they'd know exactly what needs to be done."

Well, I cannot imagine such things happen in Europe. Can you?

Yes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmanuel_Schools_Foundation)