NationStates Jolt Archive

I was recently, after a bit of contacts all around, offered to move in Japan, to work, unsurprisingly, as a naval architect. It will give, of course, better pay, and, well, I always felt like moving somewhere, not like sitting all the life in one place. But I'm wondering if it is a good idea. Nothing to do with current date, just that got time to post today.

The general environment looks fine for me, but I never really wondered about the work and general life. I don't really know what living and working there means, and I'm uncertain of how good or bad it is. There are people here more closely familiar with Japan; so, what could you say about life and work there? Do you think it's a good idea to move there? What are the advantages, and what are the problems? How much rejection do immigrants face, and how tolerable is it?

Do it. Even if it sucks, you'll be an experience richer. Plus, it's Japan and not some place like Burkina Faso.

Sounds like something worth trying but...

:eek: GOJIRA!!

*Flees*

What about Japan isn't a good idea? [/japanophilia]

Always better to regret something you did do than regret something you didn't (within reason of course).
Even if it sucks, it'll open up a whole new culture for you, and - dare I say it - exploring and understanding different cultures is something Americans aren't that hot at.

Also, you should perhaps TG Nervun instead of opening it up to public debate.

Hi.

It depends on where you're based, and where you currently are. I'm from Melbourne. When I visited Tokyo, I couldn't get over how cramped it was, and how many people there were. I'd be okay if I had to work there for 3 months or so, but I could never live there long-term.

Do you speak Japanese? Many Japanese people do speak English, but it would be at least helpful to be able to ask where the toilet is, if there's anyone who speaks English, how to get to ___ station, etc. Most traveller's courses would set you up for that.

Japanese people are friendly, and willing to help a lost-looking stranger on the street - I once had a Japanese guy who spoke English hail a taxi for me, and explain where it was I wanted to go to the driver. There's very little crime, especially violent crime. However, frottage on public transport is an issue, and there are female-only carriages. The streets are fairly clean.

There is a certain level of discrimination against foreigners but it is getting better. You'll get stared at a little - that's what I noticed most. I got stared at a fair bit - I'm 175cm, white as snow, and have bright red hair.

It has to be a personal choice. I'd recommend it, and would be able to recommend a couple of really good Japanese books for beginners.

Please, let me know if I can help.

Wait for Japanada...it's coming.

About what can go bad - xenophobia. It's the thing I'm somewhat afraid of. Racially I'm nowhere connected to Asia, and there are only about 0.1% of whites in Japan. I'm not sure whether it means there are no prejudices yet due to small number, or, vice versa, extreme prejudices which may have grave effect on everything.

I don't speak Japanese, but I'm good with languages (know English, German, Russian, French, C++, LISP already somewhat), so I guess eventually I'd learn it. I'm of pretty nordic complexion, high and wide-shouldered - won't pass as a local ever. So, how much does the racial discrimination affect the life?


Also, if anyone could tell anything of possible demand and perspectives for naval architects and other shipbuilding jobs in Japan, I'd be very interested.

Where in Japan are you going?

of course you should go!

how long would you expect to have to stay if you didnt like it?

I think it will be a wonderful opportunity and adventure. Good luck!:)

The xenophobia you'd encounter isn't overt. It's not going to be throwing things at you, or spitting or anything like that.

It's more ... avoidance, for want of a better term. You won't get people sitting next to you on a train. You'll probably get seated towards the back of a restaurant, that sort of thing. It can be a little disconcerting, but it won't wreck your Japan experience unless you let it.

Most businessmen will treat you as just another person, as will most younger people (>25). The Japanese people who lived through WW II are going to be a little toucher around a male than they were around me. Again, this will be avoidance, rather than outright hostility. They won't look you in the eye, they'll cross to the other side of the street, that kind of thing.

This isn't helped by the fact that most Japanese people can't tell the difference between the accents of English. They can't tell an American from an Aussie or a Brit.

Japanese is, grammatically, a very simple language. I've been learning it for 13 years now. I also learnt German, which is far more complex gramatically. However, there is far more implied in Japanese than there is in either German or English. We tend to come right out and say things where the Japanese would be more reticent. There's also the whole thing with honourifics which is very difficult to get your head around.

Oh, and another thing.

There are very few Christians in Japan, and they will not understand religious holidays such as Easter or Christmas. There is a 'Christmas' in Japan, but it's even more commercial (if you even thought it was possible) than our Western variety.

This might not be an issue for you, but I'd forgotten to mention that in the earlier post.

The general environment looks fine for me, but I never really wondered about the work and general life. I don't really know what living and working there means, and I'm uncertain of how good or bad it is. There are people here more closely familiar with Japan; so, what could you say about life and work there?

Do you think it's a good idea to move there?

That depends on you. For some people it's a great idea. For others a horrible idea.

What are the advantages, and what are the problems?

Rather numerous - on both sides.

How much rejection do immigrants face, and how tolerable is it?

Not rejection, really. It's usually more a benign sort of racism, until people get to know you.

And tolerability, again, depends on you....

As for language, even if you're good at languages Japanese is tough.

And I have no idea at all what kind of demand there is for foreign naval architects, but I strongly suspect that you must have some particular specialty if you've already been offered a job as you said in the OP. (If you haven't brush up on your English, 'cause that's what you'd almost 99% for sure be doing - teaching English.)

What about Japan isn't a good idea? [/japanophilia]

lots of things: natto, bukakke, natto, chikan, natto, drunken salarymen acousting you demanding English lessons, natto... You get the idea.

Do it. Even if it sucks, you'll be an experience richer. Plus, it's Japan and not some place like Burkina Faso.

Exactly what I was gonna say.

Where in Japan are you going?
Initially, probably Kobe. I got an offer from Mitsubishi Shipbuilding as the armament systems section leader for their new 20,000 tonne destroyer.


how long would you expect to have to stay if you didnt like it?
I'm afraid it's pretty an irreversible decision. If I leave my corp, I'll have quite hard time coming back, and, just personally, I won't like to admit losing years for nothing... So, if I move, I move.

There are very few Christians in Japan, That isn't a problem at all; I'm a clear-cut agnostic, so, if it works, I'll stay one. Buddhism is actually more appealing to me than Christianity, due to more peaceful history, though I'm not a religious type anyway.

Initially, probably Kobe. I got an offer from Mitsubishi Shipbuilding as the armament systems section leader for their new 20,000 tonne destroyer.

Ah... So it is a solid offer. Good. :D

And Kobe's a town I know better than Tokyo at least. (I've spent 16 years here, the last 13 in Osaka, which is a hop, skip and a jump through the endless suburbia to Kobe.)

Kobe's probably the most gaijin freindly big city in Japan. Lot's of multi-national corp types there. If you have any specific questions, please do post them.

I'm afraid it's pretty an irreversible decision. If I leave my corp, I'll have quite hard time coming back, and, just personally, I won't like to admit losing years for nothing... So, if I move, I move.

Fair enough. The only question I'd have is how long will the Mitsubishi project last?

That isn't a problem at all; I'm a clear-cut agnostic, so, if it works, I'll stay one. Buddhism is actually more appealing to me than Christianity, due to more peaceful history, though I'm not a religious type anyway.

LOL Yes, all Buddhist are nice and peacefull. Especially the Japanese ones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sohei). BTW, very, very few Japanese are conciously Buddhist to any real degree.

I was recently, after a bit of contacts all around, offered to move in Japan, to work, unsurprisingly, as a naval architect. It will give, of course, better pay, and, well, I always felt like moving somewhere, not like sitting all the life in one place. But I'm wondering if it is a good idea. Nothing to do with current date, just that got time to post today.

The general environment looks fine for me, but I never really wondered about the work and general life. I don't really know what living and working there means, and I'm uncertain of how good or bad it is. There are people here more closely familiar with Japan; so, what could you say about life and work there? Do you think it's a good idea to move there? What are the advantages, and what are the problems? How much rejection do immigrants face, and how tolerable is it?

Heh. For that, you should ask NERVUN. I've heard about racial discrimination before, though.

Well, you can buy used panties from vending machines so I must say I hope you are open minded.

You'd be stupid not to do it.

The whole country is clean, polite, and the coke cans are twice as big.

Heh. For that, you should ask NERVUN. I've heard about racial discrimination before, though.

Well, damn. I don't post regular for a week, and NERVUN takes my place as the go to guy on Japan.

Well, you can buy used panties from vending machines so I must say I hope you are open minded.

I'm pretty sure all the vending machines are gone now, but there are still "burasera" shops that sell all that and much, much more. Naughty, naughty links, so i won't post them... ;)

You'd be stupid not to do it.

The whole country is clean, polite, and the coke cans are twice as big.

LOL - No, no, and no.

I would go if I had the option. Well, I enjoy diferent cultures a lot.

And I guess that is the main reason to decide if you want to go or not. The culture is very diferent. Yes, its becoming more like the west, but its very diferent and alien. There will be foreigners there, but most of the time you will be dealing with people that had a totaly diferent education and upbringing.

Yet, since you´re an atheist, I guess your mind is open enough.

And the coke cans look twice as big because japanese hands are half the size of ours, and the price is 5 times what you find everywhere else.

Anyway, if the OP doesnt want to go to Japan, he could go to Korea, that AFAIK, is one of the countries with the biggest ship production.

I was recently, after a bit of contacts all around, offered to move in Japan, to work, unsurprisingly, as a naval architect. It will give, of course, better pay, and, well, I always felt like moving somewhere, not like sitting all the life in one place. But I'm wondering if it is a good idea. Nothing to do with current date, just that got time to post today.

The general environment looks fine for me, but I never really wondered about the work and general life. I don't really know what living and working there means, and I'm uncertain of how good or bad it is. There are people here more closely familiar with Japan; so, what could you say about life and work there? Do you think it's a good idea to move there? What are the advantages, and what are the problems? How much rejection do immigrants face, and how tolerable is it?

Its a good idea as long as you look Japanese. They hate foreigners over there. My cousin who worked there was mistreated because he wasn't Japanese.

Well, damn. I don't post regular for a week, and NERVUN takes my place as the go to guy on Japan.

Gomen nasai, Dai-san. I just didn't think about you.

LOL - No, no, and no.

Well Tokyo was like that anyway.

One of my relatives went to Japan and some Japanese lady slapped her son, and when my relative bitchslapped the lady back she got thrown in jail. Hahahahaha.

Fair enough. The only question I'd have is how long will the Mitsubishi project last?
Well, it's a ship class, so they'll need some people to build the consecutive vessels (every ship is always different from older ones). Besides, that is going to be the new Japanese capital ship, so probably five years can be expected. More than that, I'm not sure. They need naval armament specialists now, might either need or not in the future. I don't wont to rely entirely on that, though, and would really prefer to have some backup job opportunities just in case. How is it about finding a job there, for a foreigner? Besides a language instructor, which is nice, but still not what I'm aiming for.


BTW, very, very few Japanese are conciously Buddhist to any real degree. Not much problem with that, even better. Just that it seems to be not a particularly problematic religion.

Anyway, if the OP doesnt want to go to Japan, he could go to Korea, that AFAIK, is one of the countries with the biggest ship production. Korea is all about cost-cutting. I don't think I'd like it. Japan at least has a still strong economy to afford advanced combat vessels and a corresponding pay to people creating them. Korea is more focused on civilian shipbuilding, which isn't bad, but doesn't pay well. In other words, I'm not interested in Korea enough to go there.

Still, it's not like I get such offers every day. I can surely expect to advance to that here eventually, but there I get up immediately. So that gives at least an attractive start. I'm worried about the general life, peoples' attitude, and other opportunities in case that doesn't go well.


Its a good idea as long as you look Japanese. They hate foreigners over there. I don't really. More of standing out, being pretty tall and with solid complexion. No chance to mix into the crowd, basically. And being hated for that isn't what I'd like; despite all things.

I'm quite open-minded, but I wouldn't like to end up in among of closed-minded people with nazi attitude. Whether Japan is like that stays a question to me...

Initially, probably Kobe. I got an offer from Mitsubishi Shipbuilding as the armament systems section leader for their new 20,000 tonne destroyer.


Twenty thousand tonnes is a bit large for a destroyer, no?

Twenty thousand tonnes is a bit large for a destroyer, no?
Yes, a deal large. More proper name would be "light aircraft carrying cruiser". That's a VTOL/helicopter carrier, meant to be not very large, but pretty high-tech. I guess JMSDF just tries to keep more modest names for the vessels - others would class it as a light aircraft carrier.

Yes, a deal large. More proper name would be "light aircraft carrying cruiser". That's a VTOL/helicopter carrier, meant to be not very large, but pretty high-tech. I guess JMSDF just tries to keep more modest names for the vessels - others would class it as a light aircraft carrier.

Okay, it's a helicopter cruiser. I guess like HMS Ocean.

That makes more sense.

Buddhism is actually more appealing to me than Christianity, due to more peaceful history, though I'm not a religious type anyway.


You don't choose religion based on history. That's just stupid. (no offence)

Well, I don't choose a religion anyway; I'm agnostic and don't care. Just that Buddhism doesn't seem like one of the hostile religions which would drive me off.

besides the xenophobia that i've heard about in Japan, remember that they're (or at least the government) also very revisionist... don't offer opinions about WWII, for instance.

What about Japan isn't a good idea? [/japanophilia]
Living there.

Well, damn. I don't post regular for a week, and NERVUN takes my place as the go to guy on Japan.
I think it's just that my name is eaiser to type. ;)

There are people here more closely familiar with Japan; I'm the other Japan guy so...

so, what could you say about life and work there?
Depends upon where you are and so on, but Japan generally is a good country to be in. They work hard and you are expected to work hard too.

Do you think it's a good idea to move there?
Depends upon you. One thing to note is that while Japan has westernized quite a bit, it is still very much a different culture, and a very old one. Meaning Japan has its own ways of doing things and won't change for you.

What are the advantages,
It's a safe (relativly) country, good work eithic, growing economy, fasinating culture and traditions, beautiful areas, most wacked out TV programs and comercials on the planet, and the people are wonderful (for the most part).

and what are the problems?
Natto. Oh, and a tendency to think that the world stops at the edge of Japan.

How much rejection do immigrants face, and how tolerable is it?
Daistallia covered it pretty well. Namely, yeah, there are a lot of sterrotypes about us gaikokujin and a lot of Japanese will either avoid you due to your not being part of the in-group (and therefore unpredictable) to activly seek you out to get free English lessons and/or to see if certain stereotypes are true. A lot of longtimers that I have talked with have said that no matter how long they are in Japan, they can never leave being not Japanese behind them. This can mean that while the Japanese will always treat you politely, they will rarely treat you warmly.

How you deal with that is up to you. Some people, like myself, thrive in Japan and have no issues with the culture for the most part. Some take it very badly though.

One thing to note is that while Japan has westernized quite a bit, it is still very much a different culture, and a very old one. Meaning Japan has its own ways of doing things and won't change for you.
That's fine with me. I understand it's not the best for the future, but I feel some itch to change the scenes. It's nice here, but I'm getting bored with the surroundings and the idea of living all the life in one place. Our industry isn't the one where you get to change companies often, and I'll probably not move radically after 35 just because it will be late for that.
So that's the time to decide for me. Japan seems different a lot, but hospitable enough.


A lot of longtimers that I have talked with have said that no matter how long they are in Japan, they can never leave being not Japanese behind them. This can mean that while the Japanese will always treat you politely, they will rarely treat you warmly.
Does it apply only to the initial/general attitude, or to everyone; meaning, how possible is it to get some friends? Or, for coworkers and the like, does it mean people won't hang out with you, or just that you'll always stay "that foreign guy" rather than one simply another guy?


They work hard and you are expected to work hard too. Is working hard the same as here, meaning actually working at work, or does it also involve lots of overtime, "volunteering", and other kinds of work time extension?
How much does being a foreigner affect the job and the pay?


Also, a few specific questions related to Kobe - I guess I'll stay there if I move.
How realistic is it to expect getting an own house and in how long? I'm not very fond of flats, especially considering different culture; while I'm fine with it in general, I'd prefer to have some choice over the home. Also, what about ecology and traffic issues?

The general environment looks fine for me, but I never really wondered about the work and general life. I don't really know what living and working there means, and I'm uncertain of how good or bad it is.

I gather from the media that life in Japan is quite nefarious to the nerve system, expecially for the gajin. Crowd, stress, high prices and bloody kanji - damn, I hate ideograms.

On the other side, it looks like a very interesting and even beautiful country.

Anyway, if you're prepared to work really hard and confront with high stress, do it. If in a few years you get tired by japanese lifestyle, you can always look for another workplace somewhere else, and with a cool experience in your curriculum vitae. Plus, learning Japanese can really boost your career.

Initially, probably Kobe. I got an offer from Mitsubishi Shipbuilding as the armament systems section leader for their new 20,000 tonne destroyer.



That's an awesome job.......!!! *jealous*


Does it apply only to the initial/general attitude, or to everyone; meaning, how possible is it to get some friends? Or, for coworkers and the like, does it mean people won't hang out with you, or just that you'll always stay "that foreign guy" rather than one simply another guy?

It shouldn't be hard to get friends; its just that because of the degree of difference in culture it can be hard to become really comfortable. But then, that's not something that would really become a big deal unless you let it.


Is working hard the same as here, meaning actually working at work, or does it also involve lots of overtime, "volunteering", and other kinds of work time extension?
How much does being a foreigner affect the job and the pay?

Overtiming is kinda the culture in major coporations.... I don't know about the expectation laid on foreigners though.



besides the xenophobia that i've heard about in Japan, remember that they're (or at least the government) also very revisionist... don't offer opinions about WWII, for instance.

Not really..... They just don't teach history quite the same way the Chinese and Koreans would have it. And it's been some awfully strong reactions for a nation (Chinese) that teaches its youth that the atomic bombs have nothing to do with the Japanese surrender. Remember those outburst and riots over supposedly revisionist Japanese historic textbooks that 'whitewashes' WWII crimes?

The latest one has a <0.1% market share.

One thing I do find though, is that they can be really sensitive to Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

Vault, I dont think you will have relationship problems. Even if you do have problem with the japanese, there are a lot of foreigners there, and they usually group together for suport.

There are a lot of brazilians there, and they do that. I´m pretty sure they accept anyone from other nacionalities.

Anyway, I´m pretty sure you wont have problem with women. They seem to dig foreigners, specially if you´re tall, diferent and with diferent natural hair. Maybe they will only be interested in how big your dick is, but if it works... :D

About houses, I guess it must be a problem, at least in the big cities. In smaller ones, not that much. In Tokyo its quite expensive.

there are still a lot of wonderful things about japan.
like anyplace, there are undoubtedly, different in the eye of each beholder, perhapse a few that are not.
either way and in any case,
my concern is that many of them might not stay that way if everyone tried and was encouraged to move there.

i love many things about japan, many things i'd hate to see lost.
some already are being. have been being.

what i wish instead is that more of what i love about japan
could be exported and replicated to my northern california mountains and forests.
and the villages, towns and cities in them.

specificly shinto and budhist shrines and temples. public gardens in the gentle nature style so often labled with the name of that country. and the network of "japanese gauge" and narrower gauge railways, with their frequent and attractive multiple unit passinger service.

there are other things about japanese culture as well. not the hardest of hard core traditions perhapse, nor all of their modern replacements, but some of the very pleasing compromises between the two which typified the japan of the 60s, 70s and 80s as greatly evidenced in what photographic records exist of those aspects which interest me and which i love.

i may be completely full of doggie doo, never having been there. but the few people i have met who were born and grew up there seem to generaly confirm these same impressions.

and my understanding is that those still living there, share my understandable sceptacism of certain chauvanisticly inconsiderate aspects of the cultural perspectives that have come to dominate what for only the past four centuries has come to be named after an itallian map maker who never saw the western hemisphere, where i live.

undoubtedly there may also be aspects of any society, those i have not grown up with, i should be and am, greatful not to have. yet this in no way renders the loss of others desirable nor adventagous.

so i'm sceptical about people wanting to move to japan. much as i wouldn't mind, and would even prefer, to live in a land that hasn't forgotten the value of politeness and what such a culture enables to exist without getting torn up, things that amaze visitors precisely bacause of the unlikeliness of their survival, or even existence, in a less considerately self diciplined melieux.

there are so few places still in this world ...
perhapse, hopefully, the day will come when there start being more rather then less.
but for now, please, let's not mess up what remains.

=^^=
.../\...

Does it apply only to the initial/general attitude, or to everyone; meaning, how possible is it to get some friends? Or, for coworkers and the like, does it mean people won't hang out with you, or just that you'll always stay "that foreign guy" rather than one simply another guy?
Depends a great deal on the Japanese in question of course, but it is not impossible to make friends. You'll find that a lot of Japanese will shy off because of their English ability (or lack thereof) and will be convinced that you can't understand them in either English or Japanese. That being said, I have made a lot of Japanese friends here and there are a lot of Japanese who are more than willing to reach out to us poor ex-pats.

As for co-workers... expect that at work they will seem rather distant, but when you go to one of the company drinking parties they will suddenly turn into your best friend and tell you how much they wanted to talk to you, but they were scared of English.

You will always be gaikokujin, friend or not though.

Is working hard the same as here, meaning actually working at work, or does it also involve lots of overtime, "volunteering", and other kinds of work time extension?
Uh... You have to LOOK like you're working hard. ;) Japan is a society where function follows form, not the other way around. Workers are expected to not leave before the boss and they put in some insane hours and then go out drinking to socialize afterwards (It's the way it works over here). However, most people will cut gaijin some slack because they know that most gaijin don't work from 8 am to 9 pm at night. I, personally, would not leave when your contract hours are up unless you absolutely have to. Stay a bit to show willing and it'll go a long way.

How much does being a foreigner affect the job and the pay?
Depends upon the company of course, but usually being a foreigner means that you'll command a better salary than your Japanese peers. However, THEY will get a chance to get permoted and you probably won't.

Also, a few specific questions related to Kobe - I guess I'll stay there if I move.
I'll try my best, but I'm up north so you'll be better off asking Daistallia.

How realistic is it to expect getting an own house and in how long?
Not very. Land prices are very expensive in Japan (still) and for reasons only known by the Japanese, they don't sell houses, they sell land. You knock down said land and build a new house. They also will not extend credit to a non-permanent resident. Add in that the houses will be far from the city center and you'll suddenly see why most of us live in apartments.

Also, what about ecology and traffic issues?
What do you mean about ecology?

As for traffic, Japanese streets go off in random directions, are unnamed, and are narrow. Most people living in one of the larger cities like Kobe don't bother with cars. Honestly though, the public transportation system in Japan is awesome. You literally can time your watch to the trains here. There's a lot of them and they are fairly inexpensive.

However, most people will cut gaijin some slack because they know that most gaijin don't work from 8 am to 9 pm at night.
Was it a speech figure, or do they really work from 8am to 9pm?
I'm afraid my job isn't the one to get some slack... though it's good in case I change it.

Depends upon the company of course, but usually being a foreigner means that you'll command a better salary than your Japanese peers. However, THEY will get a chance to get permoted and you probably won't.
A better salary is good, but what's the reasoning for that?
Lack of promotion explains the suspicious offer... But, so, it means that gaijin is generally bound to entry-level jobs?


BTW, I know cost of living in Japan is high... How much, though? Basically, to how many yens can a dollar be related, by purchasing power?

What do you mean about ecology?
All aspects of the environment, particularly air. How good or bad is it?

THis job of yours, will it be project related or monthly related?

If you have objectives and have to fulfill dead lines, you will probabily have to work beyond certain times, specially if your coworkers are working in the same project.

THis job of yours, will it be project related or monthly related?
I'm not sure; well, project related, I guess. It isn't an official letter, just that a person with the authority mentioned they need a modern but knowedgeable specialist on naval armament, and particularly I make a good option, so would be hired for better pay than I have now.

Still, I'd prefer to be not entirely dependent on that job. I mean, it's a nice one, but it's better to know that you can make a decent living if it goes wrong for some reason.


If you have objectives and have to fulfill dead lines, you will probabily have to work beyond certain times, specially if your coworkers are working in the same project.
That's for sure. BTW, it's interesting that workers in Japan leave after their boss, unlike here, where the higher you are, the more you stay at work. Still, of course, being a section leader, I'll have to work not by schedule, but to keep the plans; that's OK with me. Just that I'd still prefer to have an amount of work for sensible time, not to force you run work-sleep-work.


P.S.
BTW, how true is the info here?
http://www.geocities.com/japanfaq/FAQ-Prices.html
http://thejapanfaq.cjb.net/
It starts to sound like some kind of economic hell...

Plus, it's Japan and not some place like Burkina Faso.

Actually, the more I read about Japan, the more I start to think about it as a part of the third world and subliminally seek for an entity to thank I'm not living there... A high-tech part of the third world, like China, but still one which disregards the citizens for boosting the GDP figures and for the international market - what the third world is all about. With these costs of living even the 15-20M are going to evaporate in the avalanche of costs and taxes... Maybe I'm reading the wrong sources, but, even not being excited before, the gruesome details of practically robbing prices are still more than just disappointing.

Just how much % of your income do you have to spend on housing and essentials, and what's the affordable housing for a gaijin like? How much is left to spend? What's the [sub]standard of living comparable to?

Its quite easy to understand: 130 million people in an island the size of an US state, with very few land for agriculture, and that has to import almost everything that is considered basic in others counstries.

The only thing there cheap is technology. Everything else costs a lot.

As for co-workers... expect that at work they will seem rather distant, but when you go to one of the company drinking parties they will suddenly turn into your best friend and tell you how much they wanted to talk to you, but they were scared of English.

You will always be gaikokujin, friend or not though.
That sounds a lot like here. If Japan is heaps like Japan, another thing he might come across is Japanese colleagues suddenly opening up to him and telling him their life story and various problems they're facing.
They do this to gaikokujin (or gweilo as we're known here in HK) because of our outsider status. Opening up to a fellow local could well make them lose face so is a big no-no. They view us as different - as outsiders - so burdening us with their problems isn't an issue like it would be with a fellow local.

The leaving work only after your boss does - same as here. I can't stand that shit. One school I was at, the teachers would hang around til 7pm or later (we could officially leave at 4pm) with work piled on their desks. I would get through all my marking at lunchtime or during the break and leave on the dot of 4. As a result I built up a great deal of resentment amongst the local teachers. I ended up marking 3/4 the papers and leaving the rest unmarked sitting in a big pile on my desk for days just to make it look like I was swamped with work along with everyone else.
I would wait til I'd been asked for it twice from a local teacher, make a big fuss about how much work I've got to mark, mutter a while and then dump it on their desk the next day complaining about how long I'd been up the night before trying to finish all the marking.
That's the shit they expect. Working slowly so as to look busy til late in the day every day.
Doing it all quickly and efficiently just makes them look bad, and so pisses them off against you. You have enough problems as it is fitting in without antagonising them.

My current school is far better. As it's on an island with not very regular ferry service everyone leaves school asap. We can leave at 4.10pm, with the ferry at 4.30pm. If you miss that the next isn't until 5.45pm. As a result usually a maul forms of teachers dropping everything and scurrying down to the ferry, come 4.15pm.
Just the way I like it.

Japan isn't the only small country. The entire Europe is filled with small countries with comparable density. And overpricing is far above what it is like in other countries. Having China just by the side, that has nothing to do with transport expenses...

Really, I start to associate Japan with the Soviet Union. Superpower on the outside, camp on the inside. And I wonder how much does the living differ actually... No, of course, Japan has higher standards in some things, but does seem to have a lot of problems on its own. Also, needing to bring medicines on your own (at least as http://www.thejapanfaq.com/ recommends), though this time to avoid insane prices, resembles of anything but a highly developed country.

I used to sleep in trains, but when I read Neuromancer, I thought of capsule hotels as just a good fiction element. And, BTW, about drinking... I read about it much, constantly see it in their pop culture... How much do they drink?

BTW, how true is the info here?
http://www.geocities.com/japanfaq/FAQ-Prices.html
http://thejapanfaq.cjb.net/
It starts to sound like some kind of economic hell...

Damn, that makes it sound like hell indeed.

Its quite easy to understand: 130 million people in an island the size of an US state, with very few land for agriculture, and that has to import almost everything that is considered basic in others counstries.

The only thing there cheap is technology. Everything else costs a lot.

Manga books costs much less than anime.... :p

Actually Japan manages to have about 50% self-sufficiency in agricultural products, not too bad considering.

Was it a speech figure, or do they really work from 8am to 9pm?
I'm afraid my job isn't the one to get some slack... though it's good in case I change it.
Maybe not quite THAT bad, 8 to 7 though...

A better salary is good, but what's the reasoning for that?
Lack of promotion explains the suspicious offer... But, so, it means that gaijin is generally bound to entry-level jobs?
The higher salary is usually due to two things, 1. Your command of English and the lack of good English speakers (or gaikokujin in general). 2. A lot of companies will assume that you will want to live western style, which is a lot more expensive than Japanese style and try to compensate. You won't be bound to entry level, but it is very, very rare to be placed in a management track for example.

BTW, I know cost of living in Japan is high... How much, though? Basically, to how many yens can a dollar be related, by purchasing power?
Looking at your other links. The JapanFAQ's list is about right on the nose. HOWEVER, before panicking, it isn't as bad as your sites are making it out to be. A lot of the stuff listed were western style items. If you live western style you WILL pay for it. If you're willing to do some things Japanese style, you can actually make and save a lot of money. I bring home about 236,000 yen a month after taxes and health insurance. I still have more than enough to send home about $1,000 after I pay all my bills and buy food. Cities are more expensive, but usually not too bad. You'll get a feel for the cheap stuff like huge bowls of ramen for about 500 yen.

All aspects of the environment, particularly air. How good or bad is it?
The cities are known for their lack of green spaces, however I am told that Kobe is actually pretty green. The smog problem usually isn't that bad (Especially in Kobe, which is a port). If you go inland to the countryside, it's damn near pure. And Japan recycles the hell out of things, mainly because it doesn't have space, but you'll be separating garbage.

Really, I start to associate Japan with the Soviet Union. Superpower on the outside, camp on the inside. And I wonder how much does the living differ actually... No, of course, Japan has higher standards in some things, but does seem to have a lot of problems on its own.
Not really. Japan is the 2nd largest economy in the world. Some areas are not as good as the US, but it is not a third world country (Some parts of inaka can be a little dicey though). It has modern technology, it has a good medical system, and it is safer than just about anywhere else.

Also, needing to bring medicines on your own (at least as http://www.thejapanfaq.com/ recommends), though this time to avoid insane prices, resembles of anything but a highly developed country.
That's a little off. The problem is that there is not a lot of over the counter stuff. A lot of stuff that you'd normally get are prescription drugs. Japan's national health insurance is actually really good and you'll pay far LESS than you would at home. I just got some allergy meds for myself. 1 month supply was less than $10, which there would be no way I could find that in the US.

I used to sleep in trains, but when I read Neuromancer, I thought of capsule hotels as just a good fiction element
Nope, they're true.

And, BTW, about drinking... I read about it much, constantly see it in their pop culture... How much do they drink?
A LOT!

No leather in cars either, but for racist reasons.

I can not believe the hating on natto by NERVUN and Daistillia. :(

Besides that, their advice is much more sound than mine. My only input is that I've enjoyed the time I've spent in Japan, and the only outright racism I encountered was when a baby who'd never seen a gaijin before didn't want to go near my me and my mother.

That sounds a lot like here. If Japan is heaps like Japan, another thing he might come across is Japanese colleagues suddenly opening up to him and telling him their life story and various problems they're facing.
They do this to gaikokujin (or gweilo as we're known here in HK) because of our outsider status. Opening up to a fellow local could well make them lose face so is a big no-no. They view us as different - as outsiders - so burdening us with their problems isn't an issue like it would be with a fellow local.
Here it doesn't seem to matter as much. The drinking party (enkai) is part of the social networking that they do here. During the day everyone has to be correct, but afterwards, when the beer is flowing, you can relax and say what you want to because it'll be 'forgotten' and brushed off due to you being drunk.

It took a while to get used to for me. Mainly because as an American I am used to just speaking my mind, but also because I would remember everything anyway and couldn't figure out this forgetting trick.

I can not believe the hating on natto by NERVUN and Daistillia. :(
It smells like two week old used gyms socks that someone had shoved in the back of their locker and forgotten about.

There's a reason for it. ;)

I bring home about 236,000 yen a month after taxes and health insurance.
About 3 million/year? Seems a bit low for Japan, or I placed expectations high...
BTW, what'd be the power of yen - I guess about 1/160 of dollar? Assuming Japanese things, but they seem to be still more expensive in Japan than abroad.


Not really. Japan is the 2nd largest economy in the world.
That's the similarity - 2nd largest economy, but attained through high exports and low internal consumption. Plus the restrictive economic and civil policies. Own house or a car being a luxury also strike similar, though Japan seems to have reasons for that.


During the day everyone has to be correct, but afterwards, when the beer is flowing, you can relax and say what you want to because it'll be 'forgotten' and brushed off due to you being drunk. Must remember...

It smells like two week old used gyms socks that someone had shoved in the back of their locker and forgotten about.
Hey, real men don't smell their socks - they know socks are old when they stand on their own!

BTW, how much of Japanese daily food has... unfamiliar smell?

It smells like delicious two week old used gyms socks that someone had shoved in the back of their locker and forgotten about.

There's a reason for it. ;)

*nods*

BTW, how much of Japanese daily food has... unfamiliar smell?

In my opinion, most traditional Japanese food is delicious. But if sometimes gross foreign food doesn't sound appealing, it should be easy to get safe, American-like food. Be wary of overprocessed, gross, oddly (to say the least) flavored foods. They sell some really strange things over there, but it shouldn't be hard to find edible food either. :)

About 3 million/year? Seems a bit low for Japan, or I placed expectations high...
3,600,000 yen (About $32,000) a year actually. And that's very good money for a just-out-of-college English teaching job. Of course I am just a run of the mill Enight teacher, I'd assume someone with a more scarce skill set, like designing naval vessels, would command quite a bit more in terms of salary.

BTW, what'd be the power of yen - I guess about 1/160 of dollar? Assuming Japanese things, but they seem to be still more expensive in Japan than abroad.
Oh God no! I'd be screaming if the exchange rate was that bad. This morning it was 117.8 yen to the dollar. It hasn't been anywhere near 160 for a very long time. And, actually, no. The basics in Japan do not seem to be more expensive in terms of cost than living in, say, the San Francisco Bay Area. Some friends of mine from Hawai'i have stated that stuff in Japan tends to be cheaper than the islands. It's just what Japan views as the basics are very different than what the US views, and that's where people tend to get into trouble.

For example, before my wife moved back home, I was eating semi-western meals and I could feed myself well for 5,000 (About $45ish) a week. Since she has come back, I've been eating Japanese style meals and for the two of us, we spend 6,000 a week.

That's the similarity - 2nd largest economy, but attained through high exports and low internal consumption. Plus the restrictive economic and civil policies. Own house or a car being a luxury also strike similar, though Japan seems to have reasons for that.
Not quite the same. The house thing is more due to lack of land. Land is at a high premium in Japan. Also, houses deapprciate as soon as you build one and become almost worthless (This is due to Japanese views on things). Given that once a house is built, most Japanese just will not move again... Having a car isn't a luxury, it's just impractical for a lot of the people in the larger cities. I do have a car, a lot of people in Japan have cars as well. But the expressways are all toll roads and expensive and given the very well developed public transportation, it just is easier to take the train everywhere. It's like living in San Francisco or New York, you can have a car, but a lot of people just don't bother with it. And the Japanese do consume a LOT of stuff, but, again, their idea of consumption is not the same as the US. We like high ticket (and large items) like cars and houses. Given the lack of space in Japan, that doesn't work too well. Instead the Japanese tend to save a lot more and buy smaller things like technology (Everyone but me seems to have a flat panel TV) or artwork and so on.

Hey, real men don't smell their socks - they know socks are old when they stand on their own!
With natto you don't have to activily smell it, it'll make its presence known on its own.

BTW, how much of Japanese daily food has... unfamiliar smell?
Depends upon what you mean as unfamilar. If you mean different from what you're used to, a lot of it will. There's a lot more fish and different veggies in the Japanese diet. They also tend to use less spices (Japanese food tastes, when you first come, a little bland. It's not the grab you by the neck taste assult of American food). If you mean unpleasent, not a lot actually. I love Japanese food, most of it (excepting natto) is very delicious. You can find western food in Japan and in Kobe you should have no problem finding it pretty easily. I would caution you on Japanized western food because sometimes the Japanese have interesting ideas as to what constitutes aceptable additions (Corn and mayo on pizzas, shreaded seaweed on spagetti, hot dogs in tacos), but in all honesty, usually you won't have a problem with food here.

Er, I do add though that if you're at a resturant or a party and someone offers you food and starts grinning at you, ask BEFORE you eat it. The Japanese love to play the game of "Let's see if the gaijin can eat this" and you might find yourself being offered such foods as squid guts, raw horse (which is actually good), and crickets.

It's just what Japan views as the basics are very different than what the US views, and that's where people tend to get into trouble.
Apart from food, what are the major differences?


Also, houses deapprciate as soon as you build one and become almost worthless (This is due to Japanese views on things). Given that once a house is built, most Japanese just will not move again...
Hmm... I have some guesses, but still... How does one become worthless after getting a house?


[BTW, I got why they don't sell them - with 50% tax (if that site is true), that's not a good idea for sure.]
There's a lot more fish and different veggies in the Japanese diet. They also tend to use less spices (Japanese food tastes, when you first come, a little bland. It's not the grab you by the neck taste assult of American food). If you mean unpleasent, not a lot actually.
With general seafood, I actually generally like it, as well as some of the influenced dishes. So I was worried about things like natto... Stiff old socks aren't a part of my daily diet, I'd prefer soy non-fermented.
Generally I'm going to adjust my lifestyle quite a bit, but not that radically to abandon all old habits and the like.


Er, I do add though that if you're at a resturant or a party and someone offers you food and starts grinning at you, ask BEFORE you eat it.
Have to stay aware. BTW, I'm somewhat worried about safety of all the raw foods. Do they do something to prevent consequences, and, generally, how safe is it?

Apart from food, what are the major differences?
From what I have seen? In Japan, cell phones are a nessecity, a pc and 'net connection less so. Clothes are sun dried, not dryer dried. Dishes are washed by hand, not dishwasher. There is no central heating in Japanese houses, so you only heat the room you are in, not the whole of the house. Same with A/C. Those are the main ones.

Hmm... I have some guesses, but still... How does one become worthless after getting a house?

[BTW, I got why they don't sell them - with 50% tax (if that site is true), that's not a good idea for sure.]
Mainly because used houses are just not wanted (With no demand, the supply has no value). The Japanese just feel that a house is built for a particular family and have no wish to live in a used house (My Japanese wife told me it would be akin to using someone else's clothing). Again, a lot of Japanese buy the land under an old house, knock said house down, and build their own new one.

Actually, many people feel the same with consumer items as well. A lot of still perfectly good stuff is tossed because someone got a new TV, say, and threw out the old one because no one would want a used TV. It's starting to get a bit better with second hand stores, but...

With general seafood, I actually generally like it, as well as some of the influenced dishes. So I was worried about things like natto... Stiff old socks aren't a part of my daily diet, I'd prefer soy non-fermented.
Don't worry then. Most stuff won't be an assult to the nose or taste buds.

Generally I'm going to adjust my lifestyle quite a bit, but not that radically to abandon all old habits and the like.
Oh you don't have to abandon, just adapt. Figure out what you can live without and what you can't. For me, it was breakfast. I like toast and cereal. I prefer peanut butter and jam on said toast as well. So my indulgence is buying American peanut butter and milk for breakfast. However, I found that I could live without a big glass of milk for dinner and could be perfectly happy with a cup of tea instead.

Have to stay aware. BTW, I'm somewhat worried about safety of all the raw foods. Do they do something to prevent consequences, and, generally, how safe is it?
In general, that is one thing that you do NOT have to worry about. The Japanese are very, VERY picky when it comes to their food supplies, much more so than the US. If there is any hint of problems, the consumers will not touch the stuff with a 10 meter pole (Something the US beef industry is discovering right now). No, I wouldn't worry about the raw foods at all.

Just make sure your paperwork is in order to avoid situations like this: http://megatokyo.com/index.php?strip_id=10

There is no central heating in Japanese houses, so you only heat the room you are in, not the whole of the house.
Note to self: take warm clothes...
BTW, how cold is it in Kobe?


Again, a lot of Japanese buy the land under an old house, knock said house down, and build their own new one.
Actually, many people feel the same with consumer items as well.
I wonder why don't they feel this way about flats... BTW, wouldn't it make used houses cheaper for one less picky? I don't put much hope in it now, but still wondering...

For stuff, I get the idea. Though I personally actually don't care if the stuff is used, as long as it's good and can be bargained to very cheap - lets me get things above even my price limit, like high-grade audio and video equipment. Is it easy to get low prices on high-quality but used stuff in Japan? Though lacking a car it would probably be an issue to move it. Also, how much do they restrict stuff in rented apartments?

Mainly because used houses are just not wanted (With no demand, the supply has no value). The Japanese just feel that a house is built for a particular family and have no wish to live in a used house (My Japanese wife told me it would be akin to using someone else's clothing). Again, a lot of Japanese buy the land under an old house, knock said house down, and build their own new one.

Actually, many people feel the same with consumer items as well. A lot of still perfectly good stuff is tossed because someone got a new TV, say, and threw out the old one because no one would want a used TV. It's starting to get a bit better with second hand stores, but...


Turn the page, wash your hands, turn the page, wash your hands, turn the page, wash your hands, turn the page, wash your hands, turn the page, wash your hands, turn the page, wash your hands, turn the page, wash your hands, turn the page, wash your hands, turn the page, wash your hands, turn the page, wash your hands, turn the page, wash your hands, turn the page, wash your hands, turn the page, wash your hands, turn the page, wash your hands, turn the page, wash your hands, turn the page, wash your hands, turn the page, wash your hands, turn the page, wash your hands, turn the page, wash your hands, turn the page, wash your hands, turn the page, wash your hands...

Note to self: take warm clothes...
BTW, how cold is it in Kobe?

It gets down around freezing in the winter, but usually not much more than that.

(Pity poor NERVUN who lives in Nagano, home to the last Japanese winter olympics.)

Vault 10's turning Japanese, I think he's turning Japanese, I really think so.

Sorry.

I wonder why don't they feel this way about flats... BTW, wouldn't it make used houses cheaper for one less picky? I don't put much hope in it now, but still wondering...
No idea. I do know that usually the apartments get the stuffing cleaned out of them and if it's Japanese style with tatami mats, the tatami are replaced so...

And you'd think that'd be the case, but, again, since no one wants them, no one sells them either.

For stuff, I get the idea. Though I personally actually don't care if the stuff is used, as long as it's good and can be bargained to very cheap - lets me get things above even my price limit, like high-grade audio and video equipment. Is it easy to get low prices on high-quality but used stuff in Japan? Though lacking a car it would probably be an issue to move it. Also, how much do they restrict stuff in rented apartments?
You can get some great secondhand stuff in Japan pretty cheaply. It's actually pretty amazing what you can find in some of the recycle shops. And moving it isn't that much of an issue. Most stores will ship with one of the delivery companies. These guys run all over Japan, they're very quick and very cheap.

As for restrictions, usually not too bad. Normal stuff for the most part, no pets, no knocking holes in the walls, things like that. One thing to be aware of though is that, given Japan, rental apartments WILL have a thing about wearing your shoes inside the place.

(Pity poor NERVUN who lives in Nagano, home to the last Japanese winter olympics.)
It's snowing right now. :mad:

lots of things: natto, bukakke, natto, chikan, natto, drunken salarymen acousting you demanding English lessons, natto... You get the idea.

Never understood the aversion to natto. I am not a huge fan of it myself (I really don't like it at all), but I can tolerate it. Foreigners seem to cringe as if someone had just sprinkled demon water on them when trying natto for the first time. I just don't understand it.

It's snowing right now. :mad:

You probably felt the Ishikawa earthquake harder than we did.

WIFE!? No wonder you still live in Niigata. I had difficulty believing that you stayed there willingly. :D

Japanese seem to be pretty naive regarding the sobrenatural. So they must torn a house down to avoid the "energy" or whatever of the last family, and build a house new and fresh for them to enjoy it.

You probably felt the Ishikawa earthquake harder than we did.
It shook the house a bit, but didn't do much. It didn't even knock over anything.

WIFE!? No wonder you still live in Niigata. I had difficulty believing that you stayed there willingly. :D
Nagano, and actually my wife is from further south than the both of you guys are (Yamaguchi). However, the both of us love Nagano and have no problems staying here... just as long as we get to take a few trips during the winter to de-thaw and have weekly onsen visits. ;)

You can get some great secondhand stuff in Japan pretty cheaply. It's actually pretty amazing what you can find in some of the recycle shops.
That's what I hoped for. At least something to save on...

Foreigners seem to cringe as if someone had just sprinkled demon water on them when trying natto for the first time. I just don't understand it.
Most Europeans/Americans are used to fresh food. I guess fermentation came into use due to lack of some vitamins or else in normal food, quite like the Norwegian meat dish (kept warm for a week before preparation - shocks the foreigners with stench).


And you'd think that'd be the case, but, again, since no one wants them, no one sells them either.
Dang! I want, and I guess many gaijin as well. Strange there's no supply...


Vault 10's turning Japanese, I think he's turning Japanese, I really think so.
I'm afraid I'm still a bit too attracted to the small things of the West - private houses with green lawns around, cars and land where driving sixteen hours isn't getting far, shops where you don't even look at price tags, available guns and plinking without second thoughts, huge ocean by the side... Well, the last thing would stay. Still, the small things which go without asking in US being a luxury in Japan turns me off somewhat.
I guess I'm born with western values set deep, and moving to Japan for me would be not finding the true place, but rather just getting some change in the daily life, a world to rediscover. The beginning of a game is the most interesting part - and so with life.



Thinking again about that "no gaijin promotion" thing... some questions:
Do gaijin at least get raises?
What about layoffs? How common are they, and how much more are gaijin affected?


Also, I'm starting to think, that probably, unlike with other countries, moving to Japan early in life makes less sense than moving later. If I'm stuck in the initial position, it'd better be a good one. And the better position I move from, the higher one I can get there... Usually it's better to move early, but it seems different this time.
Shipbuilding is just starting to wake up and rise today, and every country is looking for specialists and will for the next decade. Besides, Japan seems westernizing, and I actually like a bit westernized one; the economy reconstruction also seems to improve Japan a lot. So I guess it'll be better to reconsider later... I'm not all that bored yet, and can find things to do now.
So, what do you think about moving there around 35-38 years old? A loss, or a gain, compared to moving at 27 years?


Another thing is salary. I get that a good lifestyle combining the best of the West with the best of the East is available if you can afford it. So, generally, how much salary would it take to afford buying a house in observable time, having a car, and choosing food not by price tags? That doesn't have to be a huge mansion; just some house, maybe just 100m^2, around Kobe. The car doesn't need to be Phantom; just some small SUV will do, so I can get around the country. How high salary would I need to afford that?


I get it's high, but I really want to know some figures to base on. That's not just academic interest - as I've mentioned, I have yet to discuss the pay (and need reasoning as well), and I might just move later if I can't bargain out what I need now. I don't want to change a growing career for a job making me drop living standard a lot, but it's OK if I don't have to.

Well... I think I'm pretty much on the edge of going now, one factor left. Does anyone know how much you should generally earn in Japan to be able to afford a house around Kobe and a car?

...So, anyone has estimates on how much would it cost to have a house, a car, and pretty liberated spending in Japan, Kobe? Not that I'll necessarily get it, but I just really want to know.

Or any other comments on the question - is it worthwhile to live in Japan?

Dang! I want, and I guess many gaijin as well. Strange there's no supply...
Well, A. Most of us are young and not planning to hang around Japan long enough to make a house worthwhile. B. Banks will NOT lend you money unless you have permante residence in Japan (3-5 years if you get hitched to a Japanese national or 7 or more years without), and C. Most of the jobs for us are in Tokyo/Osaka/Nagoya, which are very crowded cities.

That and it is always assumed that everyone is Japan does and wants the exact same thing. It makes finding things like skim milk interesting.

I'm afraid I'm still a bit too attracted to the small things of the West - private houses with green lawns around, cars and land where driving sixteen hours isn't getting far, shops where you don't even look at price tags, available guns and plinking without second thoughts, huge ocean by the side... Well, the last thing would stay. Still, the small things which go without asking in US being a luxury in Japan turns me off somewhat.
I guess I'm born with western values set deep, and moving to Japan for me would be not finding the true place, but rather just getting some change in the daily life, a world to rediscover. The beginning of a game is the most interesting part - and so with life.
And I would agree. Japan is a place that is very different from the West and a lot of the ex-pats I have met here (and myself) have remarked on how much Japan forces you to look at what you really think are the basics.

Thinking again about that "no gaijin promotion" thing... some questions:
Do gaijin at least get raises?
Yes. Let me explain that a bit further. Most Japanese companies are divided into two tracks. One is general and the other is managerial. The managerial track is the high powered ladder climb to the top. You get on at the bottom and ride it up to the top until you retire. The general track on the other hand does not offer you a chance to become a manager. You WILL get raises, and your job title may change over time, and you will accruit seniority over others in the general track, you will probably even lead projects, but you won't get to be a manager. That's what I mean when I say no promotions. It is very rare to find a gaijin in the managerial track.

What about layoffs? How common are they, and how much more are gaijin affected?
They are far more common than they were during the bubble period, but not as bad as they have been. The work-for-life ideal that Japanese companies were so famed for during the 80's is more or less gone, but a lot of companies are stable (And you said Mitsubishi right? They are one of the most stable companies in Japan). As to how it effects us poor gaikokujin... depends upon your job. If your talents are needed, you will have far more protection than your co-workers. The jobs that usually are in danger are the proof-reading or company English teacher jobs.

Also, I'm starting to think, that probably, unlike with other countries, moving to Japan early in life makes less sense than moving later. If I'm stuck in the initial position, it'd better be a good one. And the better position I move from, the higher one I can get there... Usually it's better to move early, but it seems different this time.
Shipbuilding is just starting to wake up and rise today, and every country is looking for specialists and will for the next decade. Besides, Japan seems westernizing, and I actually like a bit westernized one; the economy reconstruction also seems to improve Japan a lot. So I guess it'll be better to reconsider later... I'm not all that bored yet, and can find things to do now.
So, what do you think about moving there around 35-38 years old? A loss, or a gain, compared to moving at 27 years?
Hard to say actually. Personal opinion is that Japan is far better tackled early. Part of this is that Japanese companies tend to hire young and train up, they are a little more lerry of older workers. Also, in about 10 years time you might have a family that will make relocating to Japan harder.

I'd also add that people seem to have a love-hate relationship with Japan. Either they absolutly love the place or they end up hating it, and you're never really quite sure how you'll handle it until you get here. It'd be far easier, should you dislike Japan, to leave and get a job when you're younger as opposed to being a wee bit older.

Another thing is salary. I get that a good lifestyle combining the best of the West with the best of the East is available if you can afford it. So, generally, how much salary would it take to afford buying a house in observable time, having a car, and choosing food not by price tags? That doesn't have to be a huge mansion; just some house, maybe just 100m^2, around Kobe. The car doesn't need to be Phantom; just some small SUV will do, so I can get around the country. How high salary would I need to afford that?
For houses, I'll have to ask. For cars, finding a SUV is hard. They don't make a lot in Japan, but the median price for cars in Japan is lower than the US. New cars range from around 150,000 to (higher enders) 200,000 yen. Again though, most people don't drive around the country.

For food, normally you don't have to be looking at the prices, it's not THAT bad.

As an overall salary... well, I'd say 3,800,000 is probably a good starting point. I'd TG Daistallia though because he actually lives in Osaka and probably has a different take on it.

The general track on the other hand does not offer you a chance to become a manager. You WILL get raises, and your job title may change over time, and you will accruit seniority over others in the general track, you will probably even lead projects, but you won't get to be a manager.
Hmm.. That's better. Actually, a part of the reason I became a naval architect [I didn't know the demand will skyrocket by 2007 back then] is my dislike for pure managerial jobs. In shipbuilding, there's very little separation of management and engineering, compared to other fields.


Personal opinion is that Japan is far better tackled early. Part of this is that Japanese companies tend to hire young and train up, they are a little more lerry of older workers. Also, in about 10 years time you might have a family that will make relocating to Japan harder.
For family, I won't. If I decide to move, I won't, and I'm not an emotional person. I was ever critical of the "family, teh society cell" idea and will probable never make a formal marriage if I can.

So I get uncertain.. If I get no promotions anyway, why move early? Also, is 27 years early enough or not?
OTOH, the man mentioned they want young people.... Well.. Don't know. Now I'm promised fifteen; it sounded like it could get higher later - Japan won't get enough naval architects anyway.
What's the best age to move, in your opinion?


If your talents are needed, you will have far more protection than your co-workers.
I guess they need me as an expert who has worked in a country with very serious navy. BTW, I'm uncertain about what the position means... Armament section leader - so it's the general track, right? Could a raise be expected there?


For houses, I'll have to ask. I'd be grateful. That's a very important part for me. If for nothing else, I at least need to know the prices to bargain about the salary - I'm not going to settle with one which doesn't allow a house. I'd also appreciate resources for detail, so I can bring more to the table. Mitsubishi obviously has more than a lot of money for that trillion yen project, they're just being greedy, and I'll try to get what I can out of them.

The general track on the other hand does not offer you a chance to become a manager. You WILL get raises, and your job title may change over time, and you will accruit seniority over others in the general track, you will probably even lead projects, but you won't get to be a manager.
Hmm.. That's better. Actually, a part of the reason I became a naval architect [I didn't know the demand will skyrocket by 2007 back then] is my dislike for pure managerial jobs. In shipbuilding, there's very little separation of management and engineering, compared to other fields.


Personal opinion is that Japan is far better tackled early. Part of this is that Japanese companies tend to hire young and train up, they are a little more lerry of older workers. Also, in about 10 years time you might have a family that will make relocating to Japan harder.
For family, I won't. If I decide to move, I won't, and I'm not an emotional person. I was ever critical of the "family, teh society cell" idea and will probable never make a formal marriage if I can.

So I get uncertain.. If I get no promotions anyway, why move early? Also, is 27 years early enough or not?
OTOH, the man mentioned they want young people.... Well.. Don't know. Now I'm promised fifteen as no question level, twenty "maybe"; it sounded like it could get higher later - Japan won't get enough naval architects anyway.
What's the best age to move, in your opinion?


If your talents are needed, you will have far more protection than your co-workers.
I guess they need me as an expert who has worked in a country with very serious navy. BTW, I'm uncertain about what the position means... Armament section leader - so it's the general track, right? Could a raise be expected there?

OTOH, the man mentioned they want young people.... Well.. Don't know. Now I'm promised fifteen; it sounded like it could get higher later - Japan won't get enough naval architects anyway.
What's the best age to move, in your opinion?
Yeah, asking for young people sounds about right for a Japanese company.

The best age, IMHO, is in the 20's.

I guess they need me as an expert who has worked in a country with very serious navy. BTW, I'm uncertain about what the position means... Armament section leader - so it's the general track, right? Could a raise be expected there?
For section leader, that sounds managerial, BUT, having said that, I would ask on it as Japan loves titles. You will be getting raises, no matter what track you're on (assuming good work and everything) along with bonuses; it's just, as I said, rare for gaikokujin to be promoted to a managerial spot.

I'd be grateful. That's a very important part for me. If for nothing else, I at least need to know the prices to bargain about the salary - I'm not going to settle with one which doesn't allow a house. I'd also appreciate resources for detail, so I can bring more to the table. Mitsubishi obviously has more than a lot of money for that trillion yen project, they're just being greedy, and I'll try to get what I can out of them.
You could ask for a house as part of the contract as well. A lot of these companies, when bringing over spcialists like yourself, make housing a part of the deal. They may have a company house to give you.

But I will ask my wife (who is from down south so her knowledge is better than mine).

For section leader, that sounds managerial, BUT, having said that, I would ask on it as Japan loves titles.
I'm pretty sure it's like what I'm doing now. A combination of an architect and a manager - some section leaded, but decision made are about engineering rather than HR. They clearly need me for professional skills, not management. Only that I'd get a bigger section, but still not as just a manager. That's specifics of shipbuilding, very little engineering/management separation.


You could ask for a house as part of the contract as well. A lot of these companies, when bringing over spcialists like yourself, make housing a part of the deal. They may have a company house to give you.
Hmm... I'll try to talk about that. It would probably be a very good option - getting what I want without obscene salary bringing obscene demands. And it's not that I aim to get rich, just that there are things I want to have, like a house... it's very important for me, more than any gadget. I just want to feel at home when I come home, to be free to do what I want there, whatever style it is. [Well, maybe I'll not be able to turn my stereo at full volume, but at least to turn it on.]

Still, I really want to know how much money is needed to get that in case there's no such deal. The person seemed quite interested and willing to offer payment based on what I need to be convinced to move, not some internal budget (looks to me they all use a common one, not per-section budgets). So knowledge of prices will help me a lot.

I have really heard nothing but bad things about Japan, other than that the technology is advanced and the crime is low (but as an anarchist with a bit of technophobia, such things don't necessarily enthrall me anyway). One thing I consistently hear is how racist or xenophobic they can be. It seems like a pretty silly idea to leave a nation where you are accepted for one where you can never hope to even find someone who accepts you for anything but economic matters. Of course, if you have some kind of strong financial incentive or something, I could understand that, but it doesn't make much sense to me.

Still, I really want to know how much money is needed to get that in case there's no such deal. The person seemed quite interested and willing to offer payment based on what I need to be convinced to move, not some internal budget (looks to me they all use a common one, not per-section budgets). So knowledge of prices will help me a lot.

Here you go,

http://www.stat.go.jp/english/data/kouri/15i5.htm

As my mother always said to me before packing me off to another country - better the fool that's sent to roam than the fool that's kept at home

Of course, if you have some kind of strong financial incentive or something, I could understand that, but it doesn't make much sense to me.
Financially, I'll lose compared to US. Well, sure, I'll get more in cash, but high cost of some things I want (a house and a car - though maybe I'll set with a bike) makes it, in general, a loss. But I'm bored. Just plain getting more bored every day.

I'm adamant that if I was born in Japan, I'd be discussing moving to US right now, and I'd move for sure. Or maybe even earlier. I'm after some change to bring new experiences back into the everyday life, which radically changing the culture brings.
But I hold some values too dear to make that decision simple. There are things I love about US. Private houses, cars and roads, open space, guns. Looking impartially, US still seems an entire league above Japan in life quality.


As my mother always said to me before packing me off to another country - better the fool that's sent to roam than the fool that's kept at home
Where did you move, BTW?

One thing I consistently hear is how racist or xenophobic they can be. It seems like a pretty silly idea to leave a nation where you are accepted for one where you can never hope to even find someone who accepts you for anything but economic matters.
In all honesty, they are no worse than the crap you can find in the US, actually then tend to be better than the crap you normally find in the US. And you can and will find Japanese who accept you.

That list that was just posted looks to be about the same as the sources I checked. I also found out that Mistsubishi has a housing company, so they would be able to build you a house.

Moving to Japan is an excellent idea if you're fond of underage girls.

Yes, specially considering over-aged girls look just as petite and young as teens.

Btw, wouldnt this job on Japan actually IMPROVE your experience so much that, when back to the US, would help you get even a better job?

In all honesty, they are no worse than the crap you can find in the US, actually then tend to be better than the crap you normally find in the US. And you can and will find Japanese who accept you.

Really? I've always read that they tended to be very xenophobic especially compared to the US (a nation of immigrants as they say).

Really? I've always read that they tended to be very xenophobic especially compared to the US (a nation of immigrants as they say).

The younger generation doesn't give two shits about who's who. It's the older generation(s) who hate foreigners.

Kind of like the U.S.A., really.

yeah man Japan will sure be interesting, but I've never regretted any travelling I've ever done, so I'm sure you'll like it there. I know quite a few people who've been for work, a lot of em went back for vacations. Besdies your probably doing better then me. In august I'm moving to Ghana.

Really? I've always read that they tended to be very xenophobic especially compared to the US (a nation of immigrants as they say).
You don't find things like the Minuteman Project, anti-immigration rallies, skinheads, and hate crimes in Japan. My wife (who is Japanese) has had far more issues with people refusing to help her in the US because they hear her accent and automatically assume that she cannot speak English than I have had in the Japanese countryside where I cannot speak Japanese all that well.

What you see in Japan is people avoiding you, as opposed to the active xenophobia in the US, and always assuming that, as gaikokujin, you cannot adapt to the Japanese culture (Whereas in the US if you don't adapt to US culture, you get yelled at).

Where did you move, BTW?

I was sent all over Europe as a teenager, ostensibly to help my learning of languages but I suspect as much to get me out of the house and into someone else's, somewhere far, far away :)

I've lived in Australia (work), India (social projects), China (work) and was partly brought up in Africa (5 years). I couldn't quantify my time in Europe though I've been to every country, including Eastern Europe, aside from the Baltics and, alas, Russia.

I've yet to visit South America and the Antarctic, my last continents.

I've had discussions with other TCK's (Third Culture Kids - those brought up in cultures that differ to their nationality) - about the advantages of being brought up in the same community all your life, the bonding and personal knowledge you receive, or being moved about, the wide knowledge of experiences you receive.

The general conclusion is that it takes all sorts :) Neither is better than the other.

Japan is great though I've only been to Tokyo and the surrounding areas, but if you think you'll really miss your friends and family, I wouldn't commit to long term.

Could you ask for a 2 week evaluation visit?

I'm English btw

From what i've seen and heard. I say go.