NationStates Jolt Archive

I am officially declaring that I love the government. Not any specific one, but any one that pisses of libertarians by banning plastic grocery bags and incandescent lightbulbs who think the freedom to use those is more important than their children's right to a safe and clean Earth.

Another point for my emo pessimistic self today woohoo!

Anyone agree?

Poll fails.

And when the government tries telling me what kind of light bulb and bag I can use, they have no moral justification. Tyranny, ladies and gentlemen, pure, simple and ugly as sin.

Freedom is the single most important thing. Without freedom we are nothing.

but any one that pisses of libertarians

off.

I love the government when it's committed to genuinely improving the well being of people. Of course, what that constitutes is debatable, but I think there are some pretty good parameters for measuring a government's commitment to well-being.

The people can't be trusted with their own welfare...most of them that is. There are honestly more important things than crying about whether you can buy a certain lightbulb or use a plostic bag or not.

When I stop my one-year old son from touching the naked flame of a stove, is that tyrannical?

No, and thus I find that the government insisting on ecologically friendly alternatives equally non-tyrannical.

Poll fails.

And when the government tries telling me what kind of light bulb and bag I can use, they have no moral justification. Tyranny, ladies and gentlemen, pure, simple and ugly as sin.

And when the government tells you that you can't steal from people? Or murder them? Sometimes rights have to be restricted when they interfere with the well-being of others, even if those "others" have not yet been born.

Freedom is the single most important thing. Without freedom we are nothing.

Will you be the first to sacrifice his life for energy wasting light bulbs?

Thread fails.

And when the government tries telling me what kind of light bulb and bag I can use, they have no moral justification.

except for those moral obligations we have to both the environment and each other...

Tyranny, ladies and gentlemen, pure, simple and ugly as sin.

That you would call this tyranny shows what a spoilt Westerner attitude you have...

Its not the government that pisses me off. Its just when I see my taxes going down the crapper (ie-$600 toilet seats, foie-gras banning)

except for those moral obligations we have to both the environment and each other...

who dictates such moral obligations?

who dictates such moral obligations?

Who dictates that you shouldn't lie? Or hit someone? It's just one of those basic morals that is centered around the idea that you can do whatever you want provided you don't harm anyone else.

EDIT: Sorry, replace "lie" with steal.

I am officially declaring that I love the government. Not any specific one, but any one that pisses of libertarians by banning plastic grocery bags and incandescent lightbulbs who think the freedom to use those is more important than their children's right to a safe and clean Earth.

Another point for my emo pessimistic self today woohoo!

Anyone agree?

Abuuh?

I am officially declaring that I love the government. Not any specific one, but any one that pisses of libertarians by banning plastic grocery bags and incandescent lightbulbs who think the freedom to use those is more important than their children's right to a safe and clean Earth.

Another point for my emo pessimistic self today woohoo!

Anyone agree?

lol...no chance....guess you dont wear shoes or clothes..eh,dont drive or ride the subway?
dont eat processed food,and live in the woods existing on grubs and berries do you....if not...well..then you may want to rethink your position.
your op contradicts your actual life and behaviour then...no insult intended...but just because i hate a gov. other then one that provides national defense,and promotes trade..only...does not mean i want to rape the earht and leave it barren for my children(i have 2 by the way)
however you imply i do by not wanting a nanny..that i am some evil consumer,driven only by my wants and selfish desires...which is presumptous and insulting,speaking as a libertarian,yet you then continue to contradict yourself...unless you do in fact live in the woods...and telepathically conveyed this message to my plastic and fossil fuel derived computer...oh that is impossible as i am reading your words in disbelief.
pot meet kettle!

I read that in countries that have banned plastic carrier bags overall sales of plastic have gone up. Something to do with plastic carrier bags being thin enough to only really last the trip home (so that as many can be fitted into a container as possible to save on shipping and materials). Since most people tend to reuse plastic carrier bags as bag in small bins and other things, they now buy the plastic bags instead. But these bags are thicker, and so overall more plastic is being used...

I'll have to see if I can find an article on this.

I'll admit this source has a bias, but that doesn't change the points it is making.
http://www.brc.org.uk/details04.asp?id=1109&kCat=&kData=263&sCat=Retail+Myths

Quite simply I think there probably should be a tax on plastic bags, but a tax break on bags that are both biodegradable and are manufactured from renewable oil sources (vegetable oils, biofuels, or whatever).

I draw a different line than others on the "No Harm" theory.

As Ben Franklin said, "Little strokes fell great oaks." Now think on that with regards to the topic's relation to personal freedom.

I read that in countries that have banned plastic carrier bags overall sales of plastic have gone up. Something to do with plastic carrier bags being thin enough to only really last the trip home (so that as many can be fitted into a container as possible to save on shipping and materials). Since most people tend to reuse plastic carrier bags as bag in small bins and other things, they now buy the plastic bags instead. But these bags are thicker, and so overall more plastic is being used...

I'll have to see if I can find an article on this.

I'll admit this source has a bias, but that doesn't change the points it is making.
http://www.brc.org.uk/details04.asp?id=1109&kCat=&kData=263&sCat=Retail+Myths

Quite simply I think there probably should be a tax on plastic bags, but a tax break on bags that are both biodegradable and are manufactured from renewable oil sources (vegetable oils, biofuels, or whatever).

i like your idea there..on renewable/recylable resources.
i dont have a problem with the gov helping us,by promoting eco friendly buying,or other things like civil protection(although i can protect myself..but the old lady down the strret may not..i would help her though if needed)i just dont like the idea of the gov dictating my life,knowing whats best for me and reaching into my wallet to do so..i know right from wrong,i know to help others in need,and the gov taught me none of this.
i also am fearful of government...think of the paradise we would live in if religous fundies got in office,are u then willing to abide their ideals on moral issues,or would you prefer to live your own life as you see fit.
seems to me...peoples morals go out the window when they get some power over others.

i like your idea there..on renewable/recylable resources.
i dont have a problem with the gov helping us,by promoting eco friendly buying,or other things like civil protection(although i can protect myself..but the old lady down the strret may not..i would help her though if needed)i just dont like the idea of the gov dictating my life,knowing whats best for me and reaching into my wallet to do so..i know right from wrong,i know to help others in need,and the gov taught me none of this.
i also am fearful of government...think of the paradise we would live in if religous fundies got in office,are u then willing to abide their ideals on moral issues,or would you prefer to live your own life as you see fit.
seems to me...peoples morals go out the window when they get some power over others.Whilst people can have morals, companies tend not to. They focus on quantified objectives. Since most morals are not quantified (indeed many people would believe quantifying morals to be wrong) companies tend not to be very morals beings. They tend to follow the law and do their best to make money. Instances where you see a company being moral is normally because the company has balanced its options and believes the 'moral' choice to be more profitable (maybe it won't lose them custom or some such). Hence companies tend to need to have concepts quantified for them. This can come from the consumer or the government. But consumer groups are very rarely organised enough to make a large difference. Hence a government can help a company to meet environmental objectives by placing taxes or bans on certain products, and tax relief on others. Companies can then calcuate the most profitable choice and take it.

And when the government tries telling me what kind of light bulb and bag I can use, they have no moral justification. Tyranny, ladies and gentlemen, pure, simple and ugly as sin.
Seriously?

lol...no chance....guess you dont wear shoes or clothes..eh,dont drive or ride the subway?
dont eat processed food,and live in the woods existing on grubs and berries do you....if not...well..then you may want to rethink your position.
your op contradicts your actual life and behaviour then..
So you think that one must either live a lifestyle that has no impact on the environment, or a lifestyle calculated for maximum destructive effect? Sense, anywhere?

Why do you libertarians always think in black and white? I suppose economics has to be either unbridled capitalism or totalitarian communism too. :rolleyes:

That you would call this tyranny shows what a spoilt Westerner attitude you have...

I'd rather be a spoilt Westerner, than a submissive Easterner anyday.

Anyone who would have me be otherwise can have a nice cold glass of shut the fuck up.

When I stop my one-year old son from touching the naked flame of a stove, is that tyrannical?

No, and thus I find that the government insisting on ecologically friendly alternatives equally non-tyrannical.

Nice analogy.

I am officially declaring that I love the government. Not any specific one, but any one that pisses of libertarians by banning plastic grocery bags and incandescent lightbulbs who think the freedom to use those is more important than their children's right to a safe and clean Earth.

Another point for my emo pessimistic self today woohoo!

Anyone agree?
Fair enough. Now perhaps if it actually did something to alleviate climate change, rather than banning a couple of things to gain the green vote...

[Whoops, just saw the thread.]

i reckon i'll like any government that doesn't have the perpetuation of it's existence as a main concern. i think i'll have a long wait to find a government i will like.

Fair enough. Now perhaps if it actually did something to alleviate climate change, rather than banning a couple of things to gain the green vote...

[Whoops, just saw the thread.]

It's the local governments that are banning stuff, not the national. If the national banned it, there'd be riots.

It's the local governments that are banning stuff, not the national. If the national banned it, there'd be riots.
So you love the local government, right? Both the federal governments of the plastic bag and incandescent light bulb bans are probably the worst in the world for climate change, along with China...

The people can't be trusted with their own welfare...most of them that is.

Ahh what disdain for 'the people', the true root of anti-libertarianism - we must tell the people what to do because they are too stupid.

Ultimately a libertarian world where logic ruled supreme and everyone had time enough to come to a rational choice about every issue in existance then that would be great.

However, humans and faliable and limited. Especially in a production orientated society where 40+ hours a week are spent at work, ~56 are spent asleep, x hours are spent traveling, eating, cleaning, relaxing and so on. It is impossible to presume that everyone is fully aware all the issues of the day or even fully informed of these issues. Hence it is logical to delegate some responsibilities to a committee/government that exists for the sole purpose of making decisions on certain issues.