NationStates Jolt Archive

Is the Military needed? Or is it not? Should the military/budget be smaller or increased? Should we disband our Military? We as in your country or world. Please Explain why.

"We"?

The military's useful for R&D and taking on projects the private sector might be too afraid to touch. So I'm not inclined to support cutting its budget any time soon.

I see. But is it just useful for R&D or for protection as well?

Cut it down.

I see. But is it just useful for R&D or for protection as well?

Their research produces advanced weaponry and technology that the actual soldiers use to defend our country, as well as the useful derivatives of those advances in the consumer market.

Cut it down.

Why?

I think it's really unhealthy to continue playing into these people's arrested-adolescent gun-fetish fantasies. We need to make them face reality, force them to grow the Hell up, go out and get real jobs and finally make something of themselves.

Whackjobs, all.

"If you want to keep peace, prepare for war".

If you dont have an army, someone else will. And they will use it on you.

I think it's really unhealthy to continue playing into these people's arrested-adolescent gun-fetish fantasies. We need to make them face reality, force them to grow the Hell up, go out and get real jobs and finally make something of themselves.

What happens if another genocide comes up? Or we are invaded? Shouldn't that warrant a protection force?

Well, if you live in Andora you might want to cut the military budget if you have one. :rolleyes:

If the entire world disbanded their official armed forces (utopia world), we would still need some kind of force, because there are bound to be some kind of uprisings from people who are not happy.

I do think we should stop the US (and other countries I guess) propaganda though, with smaller forces we would think twice and do some research before we decide to take military action.

If the entire world disbanded their official armed forces (utopia world), we would still need some kind of force, because there are bound to be some kind of uprisings from people who are not happy.

I personally agree. However the odds of the entire world disbanding are slim, weather were talking America, China, Russia, Iran,North Korea, or what have you.

Well, if you live in Andora you might want to cut the military budget if you have one. :rolleyes:

Hell, even Switzerland realizes how important a ready military force is; they've been officially neutral forever but they've always been prepared for an enemy violating their neutrality.

I think it's really unhealthy to continue playing into these people's arrested-adolescent gun-fetish fantasies. We need to make them face reality, force them to grow the Hell up, go out and get real jobs and finally make something of themselves.

Whackjobs, all.

That was a pretty stupid post.

That depends on your point of view.

Okay. So what happens if someone invades us or a genocide occurs? What should we do?

That was a pretty stupid post.

That depends on your point of view.

Okay. So what happens if someone invades us or a genocide occurs? What should we do?
America doesn't help those people as it stands. Heard of Sudan?

When it comes to genocide our usual order of operations is express our discontent, then let it run its course.

That depends on your point of view.

You crudely generalize anyone in the military as being a "whackjob." Would you like to back that up? I'm sure the veterans on this site could easily refute that bullshit statement. I wouldn't be surprised if some military jobs did more work than any of the "real" jobs that you think they should get. Tell me, who do you think works harder: a navy SEAL or car mechanic/computer programmer/librarian/"real" job ? I honestly doubt that many people would even be able to endure the training.

The main use for my country's army is as a member of UN peacekeeping operations, which I mildly support.

Well I feel stupid. I read the thread title, saw yes, clicked it and voted. Then I read the poll question. If I had a redo I'd say no, the armed forces shouldn't be disbanded, a budget increase would be good as long as the general public can receive the benefits of the research they conduct.

You crudely generalize anyone in the military as being a "whackjob." Would you like to back that up? I'm sure the veterans on this site could easily refute that bullshit statement. I wouldn't be surprised if some military jobs did more work than any of the "real" jobs that you think they should get. Tell me, who do you think works harder: a navy SEAL or car mechanic/computer programmer/librarian/"real" job ? I honestly doubt that many people would even be able to endure the training.
Physical difficulty means the job is more "real"? I am not saying people in the military are whackjobs, but your argument is weak.

Tell me, who do you think works harder: a navy SEAL or car mechanic/computer programmer/librarian/"real" job ? I honestly doubt that many people would even be able to endure the training.
i imagine the car mechanic, since they work every single (business?) day, and SEALs work operations. and real jobs make the civilian gears turn, which funds the military. civilian jobs are more important. well, most civilian jobs. some anyways.

Okay. So what happens if someone invades us or a genocide occurs? What should we do?

First off, no-one's going to invade you. Mostly 'cause no-one has the means or the wherewithal to do so. It'd be a logistical nightmare, and that's not even taking occupation into consideration.

Genocide. Well surely our police forces would be used to stamp out or at least curtail, erm... racially-motivated killings? Excuse me, what the fuck are you implying, anyway? That without an army on hand and left to our own devices, that we'd all devolve into some sort of Charles Manson/Helter Skelter-esque race war?

Goddamnit, I hate when people put such little stock in their fellow man.

Physical difficulty means the job is more "real"? I am not saying people in the military are whackjobs, but your argument is weak.

All I was saying is that people in the military can certainly do as much work as an average civilian and that judging their jobs as not being real. like they do absolutely nothing, is pretty fallacious.

First off, no-one's going to invade you. Mostly 'cause no-one has the means or the wherewithal to do so. It'd be a logistical nightmare, and that's not even taking occupation into consideration.

Genocide. Well surely our police forces would be used to stamp out or at least curtail, erm... racially-motivated killings? Excuse me, what the fuck are you implying, anyway? That without an army on hand and left to our own devices, that we'd all devolve into some sort of Charles Manson/Helter Skelter-esque race war?

Goddamnit, I hate when people put such little stock in their fellow man.

I didn't necessarily mean the U.S. Let's say you lived in Iceland, or Netherlands, or whatnot. History also shows that man is a warlike species and greedy. IMHO, if there was no military/police force, someone could convince some people not to like something that leads to violence.

If the world was all united under one super-state then there would be a very limited need for armed froces.

If the world was all united under one super-state then there would be a very limited need for armed froces.

I agree. However I personally think we would need a small one, to deal with any disturbances that come up, especially during the first century of a world government.

That was a pretty stupid post.
par for the course when it comes to the poster in question

You crudely generalize anyone in the military as being a "whackjob." Would you like to back that up? I'm sure the veterans on this site could easily refute that bullshit statement. I wouldn't be surprised if some military jobs did more work than any of the "real" jobs that you think they should get. Tell me, who do you think works harder: a navy SEAL or car mechanic/computer programmer/librarian/"real" job ? I honestly doubt that many people would even be able to endure the training.

I'm so impressed by precision marching. And knowing how to keep your boots polished'll really take you places, I hear. Of course, I think it's not only criminal but socially irresponsible to instruct people in the art of murdering other people, but on that we could agree to disagree I suppose.

I'm so impressed by precision marching. And knowing how to keep your boots polished'll really take you places, I hear. Of course, I think it's not only criminal but socially irresponsible to instruct people in the art of murdering other people, but on that we could agree to disagree I suppose.

Military people get really good jobs back in civilian life.

You crudely generalize anyone in the military as being a "whackjob." Would you like to back that up? I'm sure the veterans on this site could easily refute that bullshit statement. I wouldn't be surprised if some military jobs did more work than any of the "real" jobs that you think they should get. Tell me, who do you think works harder: a navy SEAL or car mechanic/computer programmer/librarian/"real" job ? I honestly doubt that many people would even be able to endure the training.

Amen. Even though I don't plan on going into the military (I feel God's calling m to be an artist), I strongly support our troops and what they are doing. My dad is a medically retired Navy chief (he had a stroke and lost his left periferial vision in both eyes), his dad was a helicopter medic in Vietnam (with at least one purple heart and some other high awards that I don't remember), and several of my other relatives and ancestors are or were in the military. I don't care what your job is, you wouldn't be able to do it without the military keeping you safe from the evil in the world.

Military people get really good jobs back in civilian life.
Not only that, but employers like hiring ex military. That is especially true if the person in question is a retired officer or NCO. The military is probably the best organization for building leaders.

To get back on topic, a military will always be needed. In the 1920s, many people wanted to disband the military. It was kept, but it was largely scaled down. Then Fascism rose across Europe and the Japanese attacked Manchuria.

While there are times when it appears the world is at peace, things change. Hostile governments can easily rise in countries that you once saw as either friendly or neutral.

I didn't necessarily mean the U.S. Let's say you lived in Iceland, or Netherlands, or whatnot. History also shows that man is a warlike species and greedy. IMHO, if there was no military/police force, someone could convince some people not to like something that leads to violence.

Let me repeat myself; I Goddamn hate it when people put such little stock in their fellow men. Iceland won't be invaded; neither will the Netherlands. They have good international relations and are well-respected nations.

Look, you're driving this hypothetical down narrower and narrower corridors in the hopes of forcing some exchange between us that you've no doubt already formulated and are keen to deliver, so why don't you just cut to the chase and come out with it already.

*actually rolls eyes*

I don't care what your job is, you wouldn't be able to do it without the military keeping you safe from the evil in the world.

And shouting it makes it trou, I understand.

Military people get really good jobs back in civilian life.

Forgive me, I didn't realize shoe-shine stands were still en vogue down your way.

Let me repeat myself; I Goddamn hate it when people put such little stock in their fellow men. Iceland won't be invaded; neither will the Netherlands. They have good international relations and are well-respected nations.

Look, you're driving this hypothetical down narrower and narrower corridors in the hopes of forcing some exchange between us that you've no doubt already formulated and are keen to deliver, so why don't you just cut to the chase and come out with it already.

*actually rolls eyes*


I'm using them as an example. You have the right to your opinion, its just I cannot see war not occurring unless we have a Utopia. War has been occurring since time began, correct?

Forgive me, I didn't realize shoe-shine stands were still en vogue down your way.

Forgive me of informing you that shoe-shining is not all they do.

We'd all love to live in an idyllic world where military is unnecessary, but you're putting too much faith in your Utopian ideas of peace. Society simply cannot work without war and violence, as bad as that is. There would be no change in government, there would be no advancement, there would be no happiness. Not to mention that it is entirely irresponsible to expect others to do the right thing.

Forgive me of informing you that shoe-shining is not all they do.

Dobbs knows nothing about leadership and how the military builds it. He also doesn't know how much employers value the leadership that the military instills in men.

If the world was all united under one super-state then there would be a very limited need for armed froces.

Until the aliens come and destroy all our peace loving nations.

We need to keep killing ourselves so the survivors become better at killing, meaning we will have a chance when the aliens come.

And we need to keep training so that even our presidents know how to pilot fighters and go in suicide missions against dozens of killomenters long space ships.

I'm using them as an example. You have the right to your opinion, its just I cannot see war not occurring unless we have a Utopia. War has been occurring since time began, correct?

No, it's been occuring since humans stumbled upon the concepts of property, ownership and exclusivity.

Amen. Even though I don't plan on going into the military (I feel God's calling m to be an artist), I strongly support our troops and what they are doing. I don't care what your job is, you wouldn't be able to do it without the military keeping you safe from the evil in the world.
That's one of the problems with you conservatives: you'll support anything that the good authority tells you is keeping you safe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_Wing_Authoritarianism

No, it's been occuring since humans stumbled upon the concepts of property, ownership and exclusivity.
Yes. War is a consequence of the original sin. We must work to cleanse ourselves of it.

No, it's been occuring since humans stumbled upon the concepts of property, ownership and exclusivity.

So is it safe to assume your a Communist? Also, Native Americans had little or no value in property, but the tribes still fought one.

Dobbs knows nothing about leadership and how the military builds it. He also doesn't know how much employers value the leadership that the military instills in men.

I didn't know that employers were on the lookout for trained killers. I must remember to make a note of that.

No, it's been occuring since humans stumbled upon the concepts of property, ownership and exclusivity.
The Cromagnons killed the Neanderthals. These concepts don't cause war and killing, just the lack of logic to control the greed for them.

I didn't know that employers were on the lookout for trained killers. I must remember to make a note of that.

Cops are trained killers, too. What will happen if we get rid of them?

Global, I don't need anyone telling me that I'm in danger. I can find that out for myself.

I didn't know that employers were on the lookout for trained killers. I must remember to make a note of that.

And the ignorance expressed in the quoted post proves my point.

You have a warped view on the military and know jack shit about leadership.

And shouting it makes it trou, I understand.

Spelling it correctly makes it true too. ;) And you have no good counter?:( That's weak man... What do you disagree with in it? Are you saying there is no such thing as evil? Thousands dead on 9/11 beg to differ.

I was just putting it in bold for emphasis. Shouting is more like putting it in huge type and all caps. I've never heard of anyone getting in trouble for using bold type. :p

No, it's been occuring since humans stumbled upon the concepts of property, ownership and exclusivity.

Are you going to be the one to set humanity right and take away the concept of ownership?

Personally if I worked sweat, blood, and tears for something, it should be mine, I earned it. Why should it also be some crack head's? OF course, that is in the exact opposite of your viewpoint.

Personally if I worked sweat, blood, and tears for something, it should be mine, I earned it. Why should it also be some crack head's? OF course, that is in the exact opposite of your viewpoint.
What the hell are you talking about?

What the hell are you talking about?

not yours. But I was talking about ownership.

It's an odd question to poll on, because ideally we wouldn't need police either. But here are a few things the military do on a semi-regular basis:

- Search and Rescue (open water searches in particular)
- Bomb disposal
- Disaster relief (emergency infrastructure; field hospitals; mass evacuations)

This list assumes we'd need no specialised anti-terrorism units, also.
If we disbanded the military entirely we'd still need to retain these functions in some form.

Forgive me of informing you that shoe-shining is not all they do.

My dad (the guy with the vision problem - look back a few posts) does work with a comny called Sonalysts (they did the sound effects for Hunt for the Red October - but they do much more than movies) and has had contracts with Phizer (I'm not sure how that's spelled-It's a medicine company), nuclear power plants, and various other companies. (he does mostly QA work)

So no, they can do a lot more than shoe shining. That's about as bad a generalization as saying all blacks talk in ebonics or all Chinese are bad drivers... exept it isn't racist.

And the ignorance expressed in the quoted post proves my point.

You have a warped view on the military and know jack shit about leadership.

IDF - you have a warped view on just about everything, but what you also have a society that reinforces those warped views - Hell, you've been programmed to fall back on those warped views - you all have - and honestly, you know jack shit about any point of view other than the one you've been conditioned to espouse.

You've stated repeatedly that I am ignorant; I suspect however that you don't honestly believe that to be true, else you wouldn't spend as much time as you do chiding me for it. If you truly thought I was ignorant, you wouldn't bother to respond or even chime in - you'd have me on ignore. So cut the crap already and admit that there's more to life than your own perception of it. Or put me on ignore and just fuck off. Either'd suit me just fine, thank you.

I think that the amount of military forces a country has means shit if they're not used properly. Most of modern day's conflicts is in the style of dismounted infantry inside urban areas. The strategies from years back, where it was mainly two armies facing off, tactics and strategies need to be changed and developed to the way wars are waged nowadays.

IDF - you have a warped view on just about everything, but what you also have a society that reinforces those warped views - Hell, you've been programmed to fall back on those warped views - you all have - and honestly, you know jack shit about any point of view other than the one you've been conditioned to espouse.

You've stated repeatedly that I am ignorant; I suspect however that you don't honestly believe that to be true, else you wouldn't spend as much time as you do chiding me for it. If you truly thought I was ignorant, you wouldn't bother to respond or even chime in - you'd have me on ignore. So cut the crap already and admit that there's more to life than your own perception of it. Or put me on ignore and just fuck off. Either'd suit me just fine, thank you.
If you think everyone but you is brainwashed into their opinion, is it worth debating with you?

Are you going to be the one to set humanity right and take away the concept of ownership?

Fuck no. We'll have to wait out all the crazy people before we can have a hope in Hell of doing anything as good as that.

If you think everyone but you is brainwashed into their opinion, is it worth debating with you?

I didn't say that everyone but me is brainwashed.

That's one of the problems with you conservatives: you'll support anything that the good authority tells you is keeping you safe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_Wing_Authoritarianism


Yes. War is a consequence of the original sin. We must work to cleanse ourselves of it.

Wowwowow!!! I can see it's keeping us safe cause a bunch of Islamic nut-cases are dying in Iraq and Afganistan instead of demolishing buildings in the US. (no attacks since 9/11 and WMDs found in Iraq)

And check your Biblical history. Original sin came after ownership. Adam was given the garden to tend it. Sin just made man want to take land by force, instead of being satisfied with his land or buying it reasonably.

Global, I don't need anyone telling me that I'm in danger. I can find that out for myself.
Ignorance
Personally if I worked sweat, blood, and tears for something, it should be mine, I earned it. Why should it also be some crack head's? OF course, that is in the exact opposite of your viewpoint.
and greed.

So cut the crap already and admit that there's more to life than your own perception of it. Or put me on ignore and just fuck off. Either'd suit me just fine, thank you.
You should calm down. I notice that in most of your posts lately which involve disagreement with another poster you quickly resort to cursing and flaming. You should be less aggressive.

Fuck no. We'll have to wait out all the crazy people before we can have a hope in Hell of doing anything as good as that.

Good luck. With current Capitalist governments, that will take a long, long time.

Greed? If I WORKED for it, how is that greed? I can honestly say I stole something once, two cookies, and never stole again,because I appreciate what other people have earned.

Ignorance, hardly. What about Pearl Harbor, or 9/11?

If you think everyone but you is brainwashed into their opinion, is it worth debating with you?

lol - good point.

:D I'm trying not to cast my pearls before swine... but man, it's so much fun to see them slip on them!

I didn't say that everyone but me is brainwashed.

"Hell, you've been programmed to fall back on those warped views - you all have "

?

People tried to brainwash me into thinking that there is no Global Warming, I didn't buy it.

Spelling it correctly makes it true too. ;)

Not a fan of puns, then I take it. Ah well. No big loss.

And you have no good counter?:( That's weak man...

Well, how unsatisfying that must be for you. Too bad it didn't actually warrant a wittier retort.

What do you disagree with in it? Are you saying there is no such thing as evil? Thousands dead on 9/11 beg to differ.

And tens of thousands dead in Iraq might beg to differ with your take on the word, too. It's all relative.

I was just putting it in bold for emphasis. Shouting is more like putting it in huge type and all caps. I've never heard of anyone getting in trouble for using bold type. :p

I never claimed to want to cause trouble for anybody.

I didn't say that everyone but me is brainwashed.

Oh, you just meant everyone who doen't agree with you right?:p

"Hell, you've been programmed to fall back on those warped views - you all have "
Refers back to:
what you also have a society that reinforces those warped views
His society does not equal 'everyone'.

Oh, you just meant everyonewho doen't agree with you right?:p

See post 69, clod.

IDF - you have a warped view on just about everything, but what you also have a society that reinforces those warped views - Hell, you've been programmed to fall back on those warped views - you all have - and honestly, you know jack shit about any point of view other than the one you've been conditioned to espouse.
How have I been conditioned?

If anyone has a warped view it is you. You live in a world dominated by theory and completely void of reality.

Your world might be a utopia if human nature wasn't a part of our life. Unfortunately for you and those who share your views, reality must be factored in whenever you come up with your views.

You obviously are a Communist in the most extreme form. I don't say this to insult you. I'm sure you are proud of that view. You hate ownership.

I once questioned you on what you do. You stated that you are rather successful. I can't recall the dialogue 100% but you stated you do something with computers. I congratulate you. You have succeeded in the capitalist system.

There is one problem. You sure as hell don't preach the system. You want to destroy the system which has made you successful. You yourself did point out the irony IIRC. That's fine and dandy, but you haven't lived under the system you would gladly place us all under.

Here is an idea. If you truly want to practice your beliefs, research what Canada's median or mean (your preference) income for a family of your size. Take that money after taxes and donate the excess to your government. I guarantee you will see your family's standard of living decrease substantially. We'll see how much you despise Capitalism when you see how your hard and ingenuic is getting you nowhere because you are earning what everyone else is.

You've stated repeatedly that I am ignorant; I suspect however that you don't honestly believe that to be true, else you wouldn't spend as much time as you do chiding me for it. If you truly thought I was ignorant, you wouldn't bother to respond or even chime in - you'd have me on ignore. So cut the crap already and admit that there's more to life than your own perception of it. Or put me on ignore and just fuck off. Either'd suit me just fine, thank you.
You are someone who is intelligent when it comes to your job and computers.

When it comes to how the world works, you are clearly ignorant. You are living in a fantasy world and have no idea about human nature. Guess what happens when you destroy the lack of ownership? No one gives a damn about the job they do.

There is a reason people go through 7 years of school and 3 of residency to become doctors. It rarely is an urge to help their fellow man. It is greed. If Doctors didn't make as much as they do today, I find it unlikely that many people would go through the hell that is med school.

Just look at productivity in the Soviet Union. The collective farms failed because there was no sense in ownership and little incentive to produce much. The result was mass starvations throughout the Soviet Union. In the mid to late 1980s, the Soviet Union experimented with private plots. They found that the plots (which were less than 2% of total farmland) produced almost 20% of their total food. It just shows that people are actually going to work for something if there is ownership involved.

Your theories are great for the fictional 24th century world of Star Trek. Money and ownership mean nothing and people work for the goal of bettering themselves and humanity. We are nowhere near that point yet. I honestly can't even be sure if humanity will reach that point. Should we reach that point, you will have the right idea. The fact is human nature still reigns supreme and can't be ignored. Implementing such ideas in today's world would lead to a collapse of civilization as there would be no doctors, engineers, etc.

Please take my advise here and get a clue.

Refers back to:

His society does not equal 'everyone'.
You don't seem to refute that unless we agree that soldiers are just murderers we are brain washed.

You obviously are a Socialist in the most extreme form. I don't say this to insult you. I'm sure you are proud of that view. You hate ownership.
You're thinking of communism, not socialism.

You don't seem to refute that unless we agree that soldiers are just murderers we are brain washed.

You're free to draw whatever conclusions you may wish, all I ask is that you don't put words in my mouth. Please.

Iceland (since 1869), Costa Rica (since 1949) and Panama (since 1990) have no military in the strictest sense. Costa Rica and Panama's defenses have not been tested yet in case of war, but Iceland's was. The US military had to occupy Iceland (then a dependency of Denmark) during WWII for its security. So, there might be some truth that you can't prevent a war if you abolish your military 'cause another country can declare war on you 'cause they know you might be defenseless. There can't be peace in your shallowest sense unless every (para)military in the world is abolished and no more can be formed.

Is the Military needed? Or is it not? Should the military/budget be smaller or increased? Should we disband our Military? We as in your country or world. Please Explain why.

Disband militaries? What are you smoking?

And can I have some, too? :p

Erp, that's what I get for not reading the question, and finding it to be different from the thread title.

Disband militaries? What are you smoking?

And can I have some, too? :p

I'm pro military. I just asked the question.

Depends on what military you are talking about.

crap, i voted too fast! I think the military is needed, but perhaps the government shoud look into ways of saving some money.

The military is needed whether you like it or not. (I'm one of those who like it.)

They're there to protect the country you live in, and it's their sole presence that keeps your country safe. If, say, the USA disbanded its military tomorrow and moved all its troops home and converted them into civilians, who's to stop North Korea from invading the USA? Who's going to stop rebels from taking control of the government forcefully?

Even if the military doesn't seem like it's doing anything, its presence protects us. When you have a military other hostile nations, rebels, and terrorists have to think twice about attacking/invading you. If you don't, they can just waltz in there and do what they want, You can't trust other nations to be "good".

Dobbsworld you must have a lot of learning to do if you think all the military teaches you to do is kill and shine boots. Frankly that is an insult to all Armed Service men and women; I know a few people that have or are serving in the military and they think it is one of the most valuable experiences of their lives. Perhaps you should do a little research before you start spatting lies like asking some men and women in uniform or asking businesses about hiring of veterans. IDF pretty much already cleaned house with you, so I won't go into the topic much more.

It depends. A blustering bully country that often pisses off the rest of the world definitely needs a military, whereas an obscure, isolated, non-aligned, peaceful country probably does not (unless it's in an unstable region or surrounded by hostile neighbors).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/ca/WorldMilitarySpending.jpg

Cut that like an unhappy emo kid. I shudder to think what good we could do with even a fraction of that money put towards social spending, or even back in our pockets.

US government spends nearly as much on the military as the rest of the world combined.

I think it can afford a decrease in funding and size.

The army spends more on missiles than New Zealand does on its entire army.

No.
Military, unfortunately, creates its own necessity.

...And we need to keep training so that even our presidents know how to pilot fighters and go in suicide missions against dozens of killomenters long space ships.


Lol. That was on TV last night.

See post 69, clod.

Post 69 wasn't there when I started typing post 70. :p

I don't know why you are calling me a clod, but you still have to put up a valid argument. Your resorting to name calling and moral relativism. My relative opinion is your wrong, and you think the same of me. If there is no absolute, why is there a discussion? There has to be one side that is true (screw relativism) if your going to try to convince someone of something. So quit it with the "that's your opinion" stuff, and actually try to make a point or buzz off. Discussion is for people with backbones who believe in something. :headbang

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/ca/WorldMilitarySpending.jpg

Cut that like an unhappy emo kid. I shudder to think what good we could do with even a fraction of that money put towards social spending, or even back in our pockets.

What are the numbers like on our social spending? I bet those are pretty high too compared to other nations. Maybe it's because the US has the biggest economy and can afford to spend so much.

Depends on where you live.

It depends. A blustering bully country that often pisses off the rest of the world definitely needs a military, whereas an obscure, isolated, non-aligned, peaceful country probably does not (unless it's in an unstable region or surrounded by hostile neighbors).

Unless this isolated, obscure, non-aligned, peaceful country has some ressources that other people want.

Violence is the easiest way to achieve things. Why? Because you may take 1 year to build a house, but only 5 minutes to kill its owner and take the house for yourself.

It was always like that, and it always will be. Its logical. Its simple. Its part of our nature. We want power and go the easiest path to get it. And violence is quite easy.

Btw, even Switzerland, a country who remained neutral during both world wars and prize peace, has an army. The population is so small (7.5 million) that every able man is conscripted and given military training. These man take their uniforms and rifle back home, with 50 rounds of ammo sealed and only allowed to be used in mobilizations. That is meant so that the entire fighting population can be readied for war in 12 hours.

No they shouldn't be disbanded in fact if anything there should be more benefits given to our soldiers and we should increase our military to help protect our country. Our Army should still be a choice whether or not you want to join but it would be better if we could increase its population.

No they shouldn't be disbanded in fact if anything there should be more benefits given to our soldiers and we should increase our military to help protect our country. Our Army should still be a choice whether or not you want to join but it would be better if we could increase its population.

As a small point of interest: this month's recruiter quota was surpassed.

national militarys serve little purpose.

national militarys serve little purpose.

Why is that?

Why is that?

Ha ha I am honored that Mac posted in one of my threads. :)

[You are famous in II, you know]

Let me repeat myself; I Goddamn hate it when people put such little stock in their fellow men. Iceland won't be invaded; neither will the Netherlands. They have good international relations and are well-respected nations.

Look, you're driving this hypothetical down narrower and narrower corridors in the hopes of forcing some exchange between us that you've no doubt already formulated and are keen to deliver, so why don't you just cut to the chase and come out with it already.

*actually rolls eyes*

Right like the netherlands were not invaded twice in the last century and at least 3-4 times in the century before that. And as for putting little stock in fellow man...well man is a violent animal and your wishes it was not true are not going to change it. If someone wants something another has they are going to take it if that person will not give it to them. That is a fact not lack of faith.

Assuming that all of humanity united into a single superstate in which the ideals of love, peace, equality, brotherhood, and harmony were all preached and practiced exclusively, we'd still need a military, if only to make sure that those who don't practice love, peace, equality, brotherhood, and harmony are wiped out before they can do any damage.

In addition, many people require the discipline and self-confidence military service teaches to succeed later in life. The military is actually a quite profitable institution.

Of course, budget cuts in the United States military especially would be a good idea, considering that tax rates are too high and the other services the government is supposed to provide are suffering, not to mention our massive trade deficit and international debt. But that's mainly due to Iraq and Afghanistan. Seriously, all the money we spend on that we could be spending on building a new ICBM-firing stealth flamethrower megadreadnought..... er, returning to taxpayers. Yeah.

If the world was all united under one super-state then there would be a very limited need for armed froces.
Yes but that would be one of the only cases in which it would be safe to have only a very limited military. And the fact that there are those who want such an nwo, is all the more reason for every free people/nation to have a large armed forces.

Of course, budget cuts in the United States military especially would be a good idea, considering that tax rates are too high and the other services the government is supposed to provide are suffering, not to mention our massive trade deficit and international debt.

I think that ending the Iraq War - well, maybe not ending it, but had it never started in the first place - would have eliminated the majority of the contention against the budget that goes to the U.S. Armed Forces. I mean, even if the Iraq War ended the money saved would be invaluable, but it would have been better had the invasion never happened. But, I guess that the past is the past - *sigh*.

That's one of the problems with you conservatives: you'll support anything that the good authority tells you is keeping you safe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_Wing_Authoritarianism


Yes. War is a consequence of the original sin. We must work to cleanse ourselves of it.
*cough*

It is not an ideological measure, but a social psychological one that, in spite of its name, is not necessarily associated with right-wing political views. The nature of the RWA scale leads to predictions that High RWAs will tend to support the current political authority, regardless of the ideology expounded by those in power. For example, it was predicted, and confirmed that in the old Soviet Union, high RWAs were supporters of the Communist Party because it represented the established authority. (The Authoritarian Specter)

*cough*


God, you should at least read part of what you link to when trying to make a point.. :rolleyes:

If the entire world disbanded their official armed forces (utopia world), we would still need some kind of force, because there are bound to be some kind of uprisings from people who are not happy.

I do think we should stop the US (and other countries I guess) propaganda though, with smaller forces we would think twice and do some research before we decide to take military action.



US propaganda....ahahah...ha..ha..HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

US propaganda....ahahah...ha..ha..HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Um... if you see it that way... Like we have "Propaganda" when most of our news agencies bash Bush...

No, it's been occuring since humans stumbled upon the concepts of property, ownership and exclusivity.
So, for all of (human) time then.


IDF - you have a warped view on just about everything, but what you also have a society that reinforces those warped views - Hell, you've been programmed to fall back on those warped views - you all have - and honestly, you know jack shit about any point of view other than the one you've been conditioned to espouse.

You've stated repeatedly that I am ignorant; I suspect however that you don't honestly believe that to be true, else you wouldn't spend as much time as you do chiding me for it. If you truly thought I was ignorant, you wouldn't bother to respond or even chime in - you'd have me on ignore. So cut the crap already and admit that there's more to life than your own perception of it. Or put me on ignore and just fuck off. Either'd suit me just fine, thank you.
If you think everyone but you is brainwashed into their opinion, is it worth debating with you?
Maybe he just meant everyone who doesn't agree with him.

I hear crap like that a lot from neo/leftists and others who feel they have the only right view.

Dobbsworld you must have a lot of learning to do if you think all the military teaches you to do is kill and shine boots.

Ahhh - must I, now. Does it teach you to paint a masterpiece? Write a sonnet? Sew a kilt? Bake a cake? Horticulture? Animal husbandry? Chartered accountancy? How to play the guitar? Does the military teach you how to produce a video? Edit advertising copy? Does it teach people to appreciate fine wines? Do soldiers learn atronomy? Astrology? Taxidermy? Archeology?

No. But according to some of the posters here, employers are apparently falling all over themselves and each other in a mad scramble to acquire the services of trained murderers with really shiny shoes, so presumably being taught to take orders unquestioningly and marching in formation are among the pinnacles of what is valued in society today.

Frankly that is an insult to all Armed Service men and women; I know a few people that have or are serving in the military and they think it is one of the most valuable experiences of their lives.

And are they incredibly thankful for the opportunity to spin out their war fantasies past adolescence into adulthood, all on the public dime? Or do they feel cheated because people like me refuse to join in the overall-seemingly-mandatory proscribed adulation?

And if that's an insult to all armed forces dupes, hold onto your hat; they are talentless murderers to a man, criminals at heart, and utterly contemptible cretins as far as bipedal mammals go - no, make that as far as vertebrates go. Now, that's more my idea of an insult.

Perhaps you should do a little research before you start spatting lies like asking some men and women in uniform or asking businesses about hiring of veterans. IDF pretty much already cleaned house with you, so I won't go into the topic much more.

I think it should be increased, because you never know when your going to run into a Zombie' s all over planet RP ;D

Why is that?

Nations or nationalism are just concepts that leads to unnecessary war and death.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/ca/WorldMilitarySpending.jpg

Cut that like an unhappy emo kid. I shudder to think what good we could do with even a fraction of that money put towards social spending, or even back in our pockets.
World hunger could be eliminated. The money and technology is here; the political will is not.

No.
Military, unfortunately, creates its own necessity.
How do you think we can go about ending wars and militaries? I would like it to happen but I can see no way of doing it.

What are the numbers like on our social spending?
Not high enough, evidently, or not effective enough (cause stupidly throwing money at problems doesn't do anything) since social problems still exist.

God, you should at least read part of what you link to when trying to make a point.. :rolleyes:
How did any of that contradict my point? I was illustrating the guy's mindset.

Um... if you see it that way... Like we have "Propaganda" when most of our news agencies bash Bush...
He means the propaganda put out by the US Gov. Colin Powell's November 2002 address before the UN is a prime example.


And if that's an insult to all armed forces dupes, hold onto your hat; they are talentless murderers to a man, criminals at heart, and utterly contemptible cretins as far as bipedal mammals go - no, make that as far as vertebrates go. Now, that's more my idea of an insult.
Lower your voice and strengthen your argument. I'm on your side in this matter; but speaking like this will not win any of them over to us.

So, why should it be America to solve the worlds hunger problems? Why not the EU, or UN, or China, or Japan or whatnot, they all have money.

Unfortunately it is needed. However, it's currently too big. It should be much smaller, just there for defense.

If we become tempted to go around bashing other countries with it, it needs to be cut back. It appears that is the case today.

Unfortunately it is needed. However, it's currently too big. It should be much smaller, just there for defense.

If we become tempted to go around bashing other countries with it, it needs to be cut back. It appears that is the case today.

You must admit that it is much smaller than it has been for the past seventy years or so.

You must admit that it is much smaller than it has been for the past seventy years or so.
It's still too big.

So, why should it be America to solve the worlds hunger problems? Why not the EU, or UN, or China, or Japan or whatnot, they all have money.
We all have our part to play, but America's military budget is the most obvious target for reduction and diversion to the global justice sector.

It's still too big.


We all have our part to play, but America's military budget is the most obvious target for reduction and diversion to the global justice sector.

I would happily give that money to you, as long as we keep a sizable military force. I wouldn't say its "to big" I would say it is just right. I would like to increase it, but it could stay the same.

You must admit that it is much smaller than it has been for the past seventy years or so.

LA actually has less smog than it had thirty years ago. It still has too much, though.

Note, unlike smog, some military is necessary.

Ahhh - must I, now. Does it teach you to paint a masterpiece? Write a sonnet? Sew a kilt? Bake a cake? Horticulture? Animal husbandry? Chartered accountancy? How to play the guitar? Does the military teach you how to produce a video? Edit advertising copy? Does it teach people to appreciate fine wines? Do soldiers learn atronomy? Astrology? Taxidermy? Archeology?

No. But according to some of the posters here, employers are apparently falling all over themselves and each other in a mad scramble to acquire the services of trained murderers with really shiny shoes, so presumably being taught to take orders unquestioningly and marching in formation are among the pinnacles of what is valued in society today.

Actually my distant cousin is a tech guy over in Iraq, and he works with computers and such. Also you do realize that many Armed Service personnel are engineers and other supporting roles. Do you think the military just throws them out onto the battlefield and says "learn it on your own"? Actually I think every military recruit after boot has to go through Advanced Training where you learn the basics on several different things even if you are not planning to do anything with it on the battlefield. There is also all the character qualities that the military builds such as leadership and teamwork (both of which are in high demand from employers, or at least that is what my business classes have taught me).

And are they incredibly thankful for the opportunity to spin out their war fantasies past adolescence into adulthood, all on the public dime? Or do they feel cheated because people like me refuse to join in the overall-seemingly-mandatory proscribed adulation?

And if that's an insult to all armed forces dupes, hold onto your hat; they are talentless murderers to a man, criminals at heart, and utterly contemptible cretins as far as bipedal mammals go - no, make that as far as vertebrates go. Now, that's more my idea of an insult.

Any credibility that you had, if any, went right out the window with that statement. Again have you talked to any veterans or people currently serving in the military? Oh wait you are probably afraid that they will tear into shreds since they are vicious animals. :rolleyes: Anyway I already told you above some of the reasons why being in the military can be a valuable experience.

Ahhh - must I, now. Does it teach you to paint a masterpiece? Write a sonnet? Sew a kilt? Bake a cake? Horticulture? Animal husbandry? Chartered accountancy? How to play the guitar? Does the military teach you how to produce a video? Edit advertising copy? Does it teach people to appreciate fine wines? Do soldiers learn atronomy? Astrology? Taxidermy? Archeology?

No. But according to some of the posters here, employers are apparently falling all over themselves and each other in a mad scramble to acquire the services of trained murderers with really shiny shoes, so presumably being taught to take orders unquestioningly and marching in formation are among the pinnacles of what is valued in society today.

Actually my distant cousin is a tech guy over in Iraq, and he works with computers and such. Also you do realize that many Armed Service personnel are engineers and other supporting roles. Do you think the military just throws them out onto the battlefield and says "learn it on your own"? Actually I think every military recruit after boot has to go through Advanced Training where you learn the basics on several different things even if you are not planning to do anything with it on the battlefield. There is also all the character qualities that the military builds such as leadership and teamwork (both of which are in high demand from employers, or at least that is what my business classes have taught me).



And are they incredibly thankful for the opportunity to spin out their war fantasies past adolescence into adulthood, all on the public dime? Or do they feel cheated because people like me refuse to join in the overall-seemingly-mandatory proscribed adulation?

And if that's an insult to all armed forces dupes, hold onto your hat; they are talentless murderers to a man, criminals at heart, and utterly contemptible cretins as far as bipedal mammals go - no, make that as far as vertebrates go. Now, that's more my idea of an insult.

Any credibility that you had, if any, went right out the window with that statement. Again have you talked to any veterans or people currently serving in the military? Oh wait you are probably afraid that they will tear into shreds since they are vicious animals. Anyway I already told you above some of the reasons why being in the military can be a valuable experience.

The Navy has manuels and training for almost everything (not including killing). When I first started learning bass, my dad printed out a long (i think it was something like 50 to 100 sheets, but he printed two pages to a sheet) music theory book published by the navy that goes through how sound and accoustics work; pitch, amplitude, tone, etc.; cord progression; how different instruments work and sound, and why; and much more that went on to college level music theory and went beyond the scope of what i needed for an instrument as simple as the electric bass. The navy has various jobs that do not involve the battlefield at all. Mechanics and engineers stay in the sub bases and never go out to sea; office workers and clercs stay at home too. I guess he didn't read my post about what my dad does now (none of which involves killing - and he didn't kill anyone while he was still in the navy - in fact he saved some lives).

I don't think Dobb had any credit to begin with. He still has not brought forword an argument, his method seems to be: "tell them that's only their opinion, tell them they're wrong, and don't bring forword any facts."

"We"?

Me! :-)

I think it's really unhealthy to continue playing into these people's arrested-adolescent gun-fetish fantasies.

Most of the people in the military almost never touch a gun.

Most of the people in the military almost never touch a gun.

Actually, in Basic we are taught how to use a gun (M-16)and had to pass a target practice test. So in general terms, yes, they touch a gun. Using it in combat though, lucky draw.

Nations or nationalism are just concepts that leads to unnecessary war and death.Holy shit! I never ever thought I'd see you write something I agree with. Are you feeling OK?And if that's an insult to all armed forces dupes, hold onto your hat; they are talentless murderers to a man, criminals at heart, and utterly contemptible cretins as far as bipedal mammals go - no, make that as far as vertebrates go. Now, that's more my idea of an insult.While I think your entire post was nothing but ignorant, wrongheaded and misdirected, it is also one of the best insults I've seen on any forum. Especially the quoted bit. Pure class.

Ahhh - must I, now. Does it teach you to paint a masterpiece? Write a sonnet? Sew a kilt? Bake a cake? Horticulture? Animal husbandry? Chartered accountancy? How to play the guitar? Does the military teach you how to produce a video? Edit advertising copy? Does it teach people to appreciate fine wines? Do soldiers learn atronomy? Astrology? Taxidermy? Archeology?

You seem to know next to nothing about the military. There are literally thousands of useful skills that are taught that have nothing to do with killing people.

And I can't say that there's too many employers scrambling to hire people who are into sewing kilts, animal husbandry, or drinking fine wine.

Actually, in Basic we are taught how to use a gun (M-16)and had to pass a target practice test. So in general terms, yes, they touch a gun. Using it in combat though, lucky draw.

That's why I said almost never. I was in the Air Force, and the only time anyone in the Air Force would use a gun is if they were a cop or doing their yearly M-16 qualifying. Occasionally airmen would carry guns in a war zone but only for self defense purposes.

The Navy has manuels and training for almost everything (not including killing). When I first started learning bass, my dad printed out a long (i think it was something like 50 to 100 sheets, but he printed two pages to a sheet) music theory book published by the navy that goes through how sound and accoustics work; pitch, amplitude, tone, etc.; cord progression; how different instruments work and sound, and why; and much more that went on to college level music theory and went beyond the scope of what i needed for an instrument as simple as the electric bass. The navy has various jobs that do not involve the battlefield at all. Mechanics and engineers stay in the sub bases and never go out to sea; office workers and clercs stay at home too. I guess he didn't read my post about what my dad does now (none of which involves killing - and he didn't kill anyone while he was still in the navy - in fact he saved some lives).

I don't think Dobb had any credit to begin with. He still has not brought forword an argument, his method seems to be: "tell them that's only their opinion, tell them they're wrong, and don't bring forword any facts."

I didn't even know that the military had so many different job/skill training opportunities; I guess you learn something new everyday. Thank you for further adding to my point.

Yes, disband the military, replace with cheese helmet wearing, club wielding everyday men and women, that should be enough to keep the thousands of RPG wielding, suicide bombing, religious zealots at bay...:rolleyes:

Is the Military needed? Or is it not? Should the military/budget be smaller or increased? Should we disband our Military? We as in your country or world. Please Explain why.

Your poll fails because you don't say if you mean a specific country, and none of the poll options work as a universal military spending policy.

"We"?

You know, I perused the thread. Your post was probabily the most intelligent one, and wasn't answered at all.

Yeah, of course we're all citizens of the US here on NS, right?

The armed forces of the United States should be expanded and upgraded. How are we supposed to liberate Iran and North Korea if all of our soldiers are busy in Iraq?

I work on aircraft, when I get out of the Air Force I'll have all the training and experience to work on civilian airliners. And yes, I've shot a gun. I volunteered for a convoy op. Scary place, the desert.