NationStates Jolt Archive

Right. And flag-burners have a political First Amendment cover.

Although they do not have a large following, ergo the need for said First Amendment protection.

Religious is a lot stronger than political. I'm not willing to argue this, I don't want to need to do something so obvious.

And the Fred Phelps following is a hell of a lot bigger than my following or anyone else that I can think of. (with as radical views)

Yeah , actually the flag does belong to the country, and therefore the citizens of that government.

And you can't really call yourself a true citizen of a country whose flag you are currently burning.

Hey, I bought my Driver's license to!!! Does that mean I own it? No.

I know what you're saying, man. All the pot belongs to the 5-0. even if you spend like fifty bucks on it the cops can still take it!

Yeah , actually the flag does belong to the country, and therefore the citizens of that government.

And you can't really call yourself a true citizen of a country whose flag you are currently burning.

Hey, I bought my Driver's license to!!! Does that mean I own it? No.
Risi, consider this:

Let's say that flag burning is made illegal. You're on the beat when you encounter a teenager burning a flag over an oil barrel. You go to arrest him -- but he protests and says that he is a Boy Scout, and is not desecrating the flag, but retiring it in a respectful way. What would you do?

This thread is gonna go back and forth so im done.

Assuming he doesn't come back into this thread anyone want to place bets on ever seeing him again?

Risi, consider this:

Let's say that flag burning is made illegal. You're on the beat when you encounter a teenager burning a flag over an oil barrel. You go to arrest him -- but he protests and says that he is a Boy Scout, and is not desecrating the flag, but retiring it in a respectful way. What would you do?

I never said it should be illegal. In fact, I voted yes on the poll. Read my other posts. And if you don't get it, don't bother me again.

Someone who retires the flag is a very respectful person.

Yeah , actually the flag does belong to the country, and therefore the citizens of that government.
No, it does not. I don't see property of US Governent stamped anywhere on it. There is NOTHING in the flag code about it, and I defy you to find me any law on that.

And you can't really call yourself a true citizen of a country whose flag you are currently burning.
Who died and appointed you as the one to decide who is American or not?

Besides, it is out of your hands. The 14th covers who is an American nicely.

Hey, I bought my Driver's license to!!! Does that mean I own it? No.
Colorado must be a weird state then. I own mine, both of them. I don't own my passport, but it says that right in it.

Religious is a lot stronger than political. I'm not willing to argue this, I don't want to need to do something so obvious.
Ludicrously wrong. The First Amendment states:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The rights protected are co-equal; nothing in the amendment indicates that one is more important than any of the others.

Risi, consider this:

Let's say that flag burning is made illegal. You're on the beat when you encounter a teenager burning a flag over an oil barrel. You go to arrest him -- but he protests and says that he is a Boy Scout, and is not desecrating the flag, but retiring it in a respectful way. What would you do?

IIRC, there's a very specific way to retire a damaged flag by burning. It's not like you toss the shredded flag into a bondfire and call it good.

Religious is a lot stronger than political. I'm not willing to argue this, I don't want to need to do something so obvious.

And the Fred Phelps following is a hell of a lot bigger than my following or anyone else that I can think of. (with as radical views)

I have a huge following. They're just invisible and live in my radio. Sometimes they tell me to burn things. :p

(note to self, it may be past time to sleep)

let's get past the technical deficiencies and look at the deeper issue: we all like to burn things, right? i mean, who here is going to say they don't like chestnuts roasting by an open fire (besides those allergic to nuts) or burning that old report card? no one! so let's agree that people should be allowed to burn things, except west of the mississippi during the dry season, because it doesn't take much to realize your stupidity or flammability.

Assuming he doesn't come back into this thread anyone want to place bets on ever seeing him again?
Sadly trolls always come back.

And you can't really call yourself a true citizen of a country whose flag you are currently burning.
Does that mean I don't have to pay taxes?

i'm not too crazy on the topic, but i don't think we should be able to. i don't think serious penalties should be placed on those who choose to burn the flag, but i just think its a little bit disrespectful. if you want to burn the flag, you must not like your country much. maybe you'd like mexico better. this is coming from someone who is pretty much the anti-patriot.

Sadly trolls always come back.

whoa! trolls, trolls, trolls. you all troll when you tell trolls to shut up. it's a waste of time even if entertaining. so if you really care, you ought to completely ignore them, unless you actually just like having them there to be the goofy, inane comic relief. Or the mildly retarded man who you like to make fun of.

Just wanting to scope peoples opinions on this topic here on NSG, do you support the right of people to be able to burn their national flag? (every country, not just the US flag)

no,

No, it does not. I don't see property of US Governent stamped anywhere on it. There is NOTHING in the flag code about it, and I defy you to find me any law on that.

It has nothing to do with law. It's a symbol.


Who died and appointed you as the one to decide who is American or not?

Besides, it is out of your hands. The 14th covers who is an American nicely.

You can't honestly be arguing that someone that is burning the flag of their country is a respectable citizen. Especially when the country is not reprehensible for anything.


Colorado must be a weird state then. I own mine, both of them. I don't own my passport, but it says that right in it.

OK then, your passport. I PAID for mine like two weeks ago. And it isn't mine. And if you need a more obvious answer take taxes. I pay for the roads, but do not actually own any of it in a legal sense.

it belong to the country dumass

Whoa! America has become a quasi-communist society where there are no individual property rights concerning flags and the country owns them all.

When did that happen?

Does that mean I don't have to pay taxes?

true citizen. Like true love. dating someone might require putting out, but it doesn't make it true love. i mean, you've been to bed several times with Bill after he won you with his winning smile, but that doesn't make it true love. Am I losing you?

I never said it should be illegal.
My point is we shouldn't protect someone who burns the flag
+1 contradiction points

Someone who retires the flag is a very respectful person.
So, what's the difference between "retiring" and "desecrating"? How would such a difference be codified into law?

Certainly. I believe that people should have the right to free speech, and that if it must be restricted, it be restricted as little as possible.

you know it's funny how everyone believes in free speech till you piss them off:

You can't honestly be arguing that someone that is burning the flag of their country is a respectable citizen.

A much more respectable citizen than someone who advocates violence over the exercise of free speech.

It has nothing to do with law. It's a symbol.
In other words you're pulling the argument out of your rear.

You can't honestly be arguing that someone that is burning the flag of their country is a respectable citizen. Especially when the country is not reprehensible for anything.
Ignoring the reprehensible part, yes, I would say that using your rights to protest is being respectable.

OK then, your passport. I PAID for mine like two weeks ago. And it isn't mine. And if you need a more obvious answer take taxes. I pay for the roads, but do not actually own any of it in a legal sense.
Your allagory is getting more and more bizzare and has less and less to do ith your point. If someone buys a flag, it is his. There is no law (Unlike passports) that says otherwise.

Doing that expresses enmity toward the country. I think flag burners should be exiled. People who burn a symbol of the nation they live in don't deserve to be under that nation's wing of protection if all they are going to do is express hatred for their nation. If they leave than both the burners and the rest of the nation are happy. The nation would be glad to get rid of the ungrateful git and the flag burner would as I imagine be glad to leave unless he is a sociopath that just wants to harm society, in that case he should be executed so that no others attempt to harm society maliciously.

agreed:)

true citizen. Like true love. dating someone might require putting out, but it doesn't make it true love. i mean, you've been to bed several times with Bill after he won you with his winning smile, but that doesn't make it true love. Am I losing you?
I think you lost yourself.

http://www.760kfmb.com/rick_blog/imglib/burning_flag.jpg

IIRC, there's a very specific way to retire a damaged flag by burning. It's not like you toss the shredded flag into a bondfire and call it good.
Well, not all flag burners stomp and spit on the flag. And not all retire-ers follow the correct procedures. It's largely a subjective thing.

My point still stands: if a protester and a Boy Scout are performing the same action (burning a flag), they should be treated the same way. One should not be jailed solely because of the idea being expressed.

http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/flag_burning.gif

+1 contradiction points


So, what's the difference between "retiring" and "desecrating"? How would such a difference be codified into law?

I mean protect as in admire/glorify/etc.

-1 contradiction points for me
+1 stupidity points for you


The difference between the two is that one is done out of respect/because it needs to be done. The other is done to make a political statement or something similar.

Who said it should be in the law?

http://www.wilayahnetwork.com/img/cartoons/june-2005/Burning%20Flag.jpg

Well, not all flag burners stomp and spit on the flag. And not all retire-ers follow the correct procedures. It's largely a subjective thing.

My point still stands: if a protester and a Boy Scout are performing the same action (burning a flag), they should be treated the same way. One should not be jailed solely because of the idea being expressed.

I say jail the boy scout.






What? :confused:

I don't know about anyone else, but if a person is upset with there country i'd much rather that person burn a piece of cloth then a building or somthing. The way i see it is a flag is a peice of cloth, symbolic cloth, but cloth no less.

in the same respect though, it's funny how people don't seem to respect their flag until they leave their country;ie mexico,irish polish puerto rico colombia etc.
why?:confused:

http://www.wilayahnetwork.com/img/cartoons/june-2005/Burning%20Flag.jpg
I always find it funny that the same people willing to ban flag burning as a form of protest are usually the same ones who violate the flag code in every whichway.

I think you lost yourself.

http://www.760kfmb.com/rick_blog/imglib/burning_flag.jpg

yeah, i think i did too. But my point was, love it or leave it. i think that was my point.

I mean protect as in admire/glorify/etc.

-1 contradiction points for me
+1 stupidity points for you


The difference between the two is that one is done out of respect/because it needs to be done. The other is done to make a political statement or something similar.

Who said it should be in the law?

And political statements are bad, Mmmkay?

He's a real un-American
Fights for whats wrong
fights against your rights . . .

Yeah, definitely time for me to sleep. I'm not making a lot of sense to ME anymore . . .

Well, not all flag burners stomp and spit on the flag. And not all retire-ers follow the correct procedures. It's largely a subjective thing.

My point still stands: if a protester and a Boy Scout are performing the same action (burning a flag), they should be treated the same way. One should not be jailed solely because of the idea being expressed.

Well technically, following your logic not mine, as long as the actual action is the same the punishment should be the same.

So if I rape some woman the 'punishment' should be the same as if I were having sex with my wife? That makes no sense.

You are saying basically that the details and expressions make no difference (location, why, expression, whatever) and you should be treated by the core action only.

Well, not all flag burners stomp and spit on the flag. And not all retire-ers follow the correct procedures. It's largely a subjective thing.

My point still stands: if a protester and a Boy Scout are performing the same action (burning a flag), they should be treated the same way. One should not be jailed solely because of the idea being expressed.

Surely not, but one should not confuse an honorable flag retirement with a loud political statement.

Be that as it may, nonviolent political statements are protected by the first amendment. While I do not necessarily approve of burning a flag as a political statement, I would most strenuously protest any action to make it criminal.

in the same respect though, it's funny how people don't seem to respect their flag until they leave their country;ie mexico,irish polish puerto rico colombia etc.
why?:confused:
Don't look at me, I can't say that I suddenly started to respect the Stars and Stripes more over here than I did at home.

I always find it funny that the same people willing to ban flag burning as a form of protest are usually the same ones who violate the flag code in every whichway.

Well, that's because they're morally reprehensible. For them, this country isn't about freedom, it's about a military tradition.

Well technically, following your logic not mine, as long as the actual action is the same the punishment should be the same.

So if I rape some woman the 'punishment' should be the same as if I were having sex with my wife? That makes no sense.

You are saying basically that the details and expressions make no difference (location, why, expression, whatever) and you should be treated by the core action only.

Exactly. By the way, having (consensual) sex with your wife is an entirely different core action than raping someone. Even my sleep deprived ass knows that. (damn rapid share, if I didn't have to wait another 10 minutes to start my download I'd be in bed by now)

it's a terrible thing to see citizens bashing their own country. Not like former citizens bashing the Soviet Union. Like people from Democratic countries who bash their country but decide to continue living there when they could leave.

Well technically, following your logic not mine, as long as the actual action is the same the punishment should be the same.

So if I rape some woman the 'punishment' should be the same as if I were having sex with my wife? That makes no sense.

You are saying basically that the details and expressions make no difference (location, why, expression, whatever) and you should be treated by the core action only.
Wrong. Sex is consensual. Rape is not.

Same thing if you burned someone else's flag. The action is the same, but it would be illegal because you're destroying another's property. There are certain obvious extenuating circumstances to what I said. But protecting your rather fragile political sensibilities is not one of them.

From the Onion (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28952):



The way I see it, it is far better to destroy a symbol of freedom rather than the freedom itself. Flag burning should not be restricted any more rigorously than the burning of any other piece of cloth.

that symbol represents hope for all those that claim to seek a better life, just so they can come on over, settle in and then start making demands, why? why don't they make demands in the country that they come from.....why because they wouldn't exist now so when you see that beacon don't seek to destroy it but remember what it did for your forefathers who understood the difference between using freedom and abusing it.:(

it's a terrible thing to see citizens bashing their own country. Not like former citizens bashing the Soviet Union. Like people from Democratic countries who bash their country but decide to continue living there when they could leave.
Leaving is the coward's way out. Better to stay and try to make things better.

it's a terrible thing to see citizens bashing their own country. Not like former citizens bashing the Soviet Union. Like people from Democratic countries who bash their country but decide to continue living there when they could leave.
...or they could protest the things they don't like, and work for change.

...or they could protest the things they don't like, and work for change.

He doesn't care for the First Amendment, remember?

it's a terrible thing to see citizens bashing their own country. Not like former citizens bashing the Soviet Union. Like people from Democratic countries who bash their country but decide to continue living there when they could leave.

You offering me enough money that my wife and I can move to Canada and survive while we try to get employed?

Forget this.

At least I will rest easy because I know that someday you will be talking in a bar somewhere about 'it's just a piece of cloth' , 'who cares if the flag is burnt' , 'I can do whatever I want to it', etc. and afterwards you will get your ass kicked and or get killed in an alley. Legal or not. And I will not care.

At least I will rest easy because I know that someday you will be talking in a bar somewhere about 'it's just a piece of cloth' , 'who cares if the flag is burnt' , 'I can do whatever I want to it', etc. and afterwards you will get your ass kicked and or get killed in an alley. Legal or not. And I will not care.
You're a wonderful human being.

Wrong. Sex is consensual. Rape is not.

Same thing if you burned someone else's flag. The action is the same, but it would be illegal because you're destroying another's property. There are certain obvious extenuating circumstances to what I said. But protecting your rather fragile political sensibilities is not one of them.

sex is sex, whether consensual or not. consensual sex is consensual. rape is inconsensual sex. sex is really just an action without many fringes on it. if you're going to go to lengths to define it, remember you'll have to make it gay or animal friendly! Sexual intercourse is different, as the word intercourse has to do with human relations, and the word sex has taken the meaning of copulation instead of something requiring human thought. so sex is simply sex.

Forget this.

At least I will rest easy because I know that someday you will be talking in a bar somewhere about 'it's just a piece of cloth' , 'who cares if the flag is burnt' , 'I can do whatever I want to it', etc. and afterwards you will get your ass kicked and or get killed in an alley. Legal or not. And I will not care.
Which is final proof of your intellectual laziness, political apathy, disrespect of our nation's laws, and complete lack of understanding of our founding ideals.

+1 contradiction points


So, what's the difference between "retiring" and "desecrating"? How would such a difference be codified into law?

if I put a flag on your fathers casket it's retired if I piss on his casket it's desecrated;)

Forget this.

At least I will rest easy because I know that someday you will be talking in a bar somewhere about 'it's just a piece of cloth' , 'who cares if the flag is burnt' , 'I can do whatever I want to it', etc. and afterwards you will get your ass kicked and or get killed in an alley. Legal or not. And I will not care.
Highly doubtful, but thanks for playing. Buh-bye!

...or they could protest the things they don't like, and work for change.

ah, but you are one to say "Stop bitching and start a revolution." how american! however, many just talk about how fucked up america is, how much they hate it, how much better europe is than the US. and it's disheartening and embarrassing, especially for them to do it to foreigners.

ah, but you are one to say "Stop bitching and start a revolution." how american! however, many just talk about how fucked up america is, how much they hate it, how much better europe is than the US. and it's disheartening and embarrassing, especially for them to do it to foreigners.

most of the people that give kudos to europe have never been, they just say dumb shit for the sake of hearing themselves talk, cause realistically Europe is a shit hole for the most part and the example of freedom there would be more like decadence:eek:

if I put a flag on your fathers casket it's retired if I piss on his casket it's desecrated;)
Anything you did to my father's casket without my permission would be trespassing on my family and my property.

Anything you did to my father's casket without my permission would be trespassing on my family and my property.

but then who's the one saying go ahead and burn my flag, cause really if you think about it that flag belongs to all americans good or bad and if that that flag were...lets say a bank account you wouldn't be quite as hum drum about one of the members taking out loot just to set it on fire;)

Forget this.

At least I will rest easy because I know that someday you will be talking in a bar somewhere about 'it's just a piece of cloth' , 'who cares if the flag is burnt' , 'I can do whatever I want to it', etc. and afterwards you will get your ass kicked and or get killed in an alley. Legal or not. And I will not care.

Wait wait wait...

You're wishing someone death for offending you? A fellow countryman? For burning a simple piece of cloth woven in a colorful design? Wish someone death for simply exercising their right to political protest?

You, sir, are NOT an American. You are a fascist and a coward. I'm going to put my ass on the line for the likes of you, and all you can do is bitch and moan about how burning cloth offends you and your precious sensibilities.

If you don't respect the rights millions of our forefathers fought and died for, then move to North Korea. They're more along your political lines. All praising the government, that they can do no harm. That individual rights must suborne themselves to the almighty State.

Get the fuck out of my country.

but then who's the one saying go ahead and burn my flag, cause really if you think about it that flag belongs to all americans good or bad and if that that flag were...lets say a bank account you wouldn't be quite as hum drum about one of the members taking out loot just to set it on fire;)
Wrong. Again.

I didn't say "burn my flag", I said "burn your flag if you want". And the flag does not "belong to all Americans" except in the most abstract of senses. The average American flag is a piece of cloth made in China that is bought and owned by a private citizen.

Also... doesn't this "the flag belongs to all of us" talk sound a bit... Communist? :eek:

:p

Wrong. Again.

I didn't say "burn my flag", I said "burn your flag if you want". And the flag does not "belong to all Americans" except in the most abstract of senses. The average American flag is a piece of cloth made in China that is bought and owned by a private citizen.

Also... doesn't this "the flag belongs to all of us" talk sound a bit... Communist? :eek:

:p

well I don't know where you bought your flag but mine says made in America also if we're talking about abstract this isn't YOUR country either for that matter or YOUR government:eek:

well I don't know where you bought your flag but mine says made in America also if we're talking about abstract this isn't YOUR country either for that matter or YOUR government:eek:

Yes, it is our government. The Government of the United States is a government "of the people, by the people, [and] for the people". It is our government. Same as our Nation.

...or they could protest the things they don't like, and work for change.

Burning the flag is not work,it's mindless destruction for the sake of getting a rise out of someone, because if you think about it the only ones you piss off are your neighbors, the government doesn't give a rats ass what you burn, seeing as how you have to buy the flag before you can burn it, and then they can collect the taxes you paid on the thing.:p

well I don't know where you bought your flag but mine says made in America
It doesn't matter where it was made. Just the fact that it was made. Manufactured. Mass-produced. On buttons, pins, pillows, and bumper stickers. It's a product, a commodity. Not some shared national treasure. And certainly not more important than the First Amendment.

also if we're talking about abstract this isn't YOUR country either for that matter or YOUR government:eek:
http://www.lib.utah.edu/theseptemberproject/images/constitution2.gif

Note the first three words.

Burning the flag is not work,it's mindless destruction for the sake of getting a rise out of someone, because if you think about it the only ones you piss off are your neighbors, the government doesn't give a rats ass what you burn
Just because you see it as ineffectual doesn't mean it should be banned. Besides, if it's so inconsequential, then why devote so much attention to its censorship?

Yes, it is our government. The Government of the United States is a government "of the people, by the people, [and] for the people". It is our government. Same as our Nation.

this nation was "stolen" just like the last couple of elections, so that eliminates "of the people" and "by the people" and considering what's going in the world, currently they are not listening to what you or I have to say, and doing whatever they want when they want so that tosses out "for the people":cool:

this nation was "stolen" just like the last couple of elections, so that eliminates "of the people" and "by the people" and considering what's going in the world, currently they are not listening to what you or I have to say, and doing whatever they want when they want so that tosses out "for the people":cool:

Then change the damned system back to the way it was before! It's our fault that we allowed our government to be hyjacked by professional politicians. We did this to ourselves. Our government is what we make of it. And we've done a pretty shitty job this past century.

Just because you see it as ineffectual doesn't mean it should be banned. Besides, if it's so inconsequential, then why devote so much attention to its censorship?

because in 1991 I watched some of my friends die under that flag protecting your rights, just so I could come back home to be shot by someone who opposes the flag:headbang:

because in 1991 I watched some of my friends die under that flag protecting your rights, just so I could come back home to be shot by someone who opposes the flag:headbang:

Isn't the whole point of fighting for the United States to preserve and protect the rights that the Constitution recognized for all citizens?

Then change the damned system back to the way it was before! It's our fault that we allowed our government to be hyjacked by professional politicians. We did this to ourselves. Our government is what we make of it. And we've done a pretty shitty job this past century.

too true, but what can we do, when we refuse to stand together as one and say enough, not by burning the flag, but maybe by putting petty social differences aside and figure out as a whole what's really best for us as a whole:fluffle:

Isn't the whole point of fighting for the United States to preserve and protect the rights that the Constitution recognized for all citizens?

well explain to me who was protecting my rights after I got home from a place where my rights were a moot point:confused:

well explain to me who was protecting my rights after I got home from a place where my rights were a moot point:confused:

Pray tell, what rights of yours are violated when someone burns a flag?

too true, but what can we do, when we refuse to stand together as one and say enough, not by burning the flag, but maybe by putting petty social differences aside and figure out as a whole what's really best for us as a whole:fluffle:

Who decides what is in the best interests of the People?

Then change the damned system back to the way it was before! It's our fault that we allowed our government to be hyjacked by professional politicians. We did this to ourselves. Our government is what we make of it. And we've done a pretty shitty job this past century.
...which is why I support Obama's candidacy. The man literally was a constitutional scholar. :cool:

...which is why I support Obama's candidacy. The man literally was a constitutional scholar. :cool:

Meh, there are worse candidates.

Who decides what is in the best interests of the People?

right now no one because we spend too much time waiting for handouts, not willing to sacrafice anything to make things better down the line. joblessness could be cured crime could be better deterred health care could be improved etc.just by people standing up and saying "ENOUGH" we want people in government who will do what's right not to distract us but because they believe in pure fundamental inalienable rights of American people:D

For smeg sake! The flag is a symbol of how America was supposed to be like.

Actually, to correct a misconception of yours, the flag represents a number of states under a single federal government, no more, no less. The Statue of Liberty is a symbol of what America is supposed to be like, as is the original constitution (albeit more specific).

The flag represents the United States. Not what it's supposed to be, but what it is. And if it's currently being run by a bunch of nutjobs who should be behind bars, the flag has the same amount of worth as they do.

Although to be frank, I see little point to doing that since it is entirely symbolic, easily ignored and lacks impact. Now burning down Capitol Hill. That's a different story.

so the flag burners have a right to freedom of expression and those who don't agree with them don't. Now who's the one being fascist....comrade ;)

Ahh, so you would endorse violence to have your way? Because that is what he proposes. Perhaps you will endorse fatal violence next mmm?

Wait wait wait...

You're wishing someone death for offending you? A fellow countryman? For burning a simple piece of cloth woven in a colorful design? Wish someone death for simply exercising their right to political protest?

You, sir, are NOT an American. You are a fascist and a coward. I'm going to put my ass on the line for the likes of you, and all you can do is bitch and moan about how burning cloth offends you and your precious sensibilities.

If you don't respect the rights millions of our forefathers fought and died for, then move to North Korea. They're more along your political lines. All praising the government, that they can do no harm. That individual rights must suborne themselves to the almighty State.

Get the fuck out of my country.

Amen.

Countless men and women gave their lives so we would have the freedom to dissent against our government.

Forget this.

At least I will rest easy because I know that someday you will be talking in a bar somewhere about 'it's just a piece of cloth' , 'who cares if the flag is burnt' , 'I can do whatever I want to it', etc. and afterwards you will get your ass kicked and or get killed in an alley. Legal or not. And I will not care.

Would you be one of the people doing it, Risi? Because these "people" would get rightfully jailed. And few people are psychopathic murderers.

Is it really that offensive if someone burns a flag. Come on look at what countries do it. Normally the ones who are uncivilised therefore their flag burning antics should be ignored.

So, what's the difference between "retiring" and "desecrating"? How would such a difference be codified into law?
Well, according to the Flag Code, "retiring" is burning the flag when it has been soiled. "Desecrating" would be wearing it as clothing or using it for political purposes, IIRC.

Which means that everyone who is arguing that flag burning should be banned since the flag is our country or whatever is desecrating it by doing so.

Forget this.

At least I will rest easy because I know that someday you will be talking in a bar somewhere about 'it's just a piece of cloth' , 'who cares if the flag is burnt' , 'I can do whatever I want to it', etc. and afterwards you will get your ass kicked and or get killed in an alley. Legal or not. And I will not care.

Yeah, you will care, because when you get imprisoned for murdering someone over a stupid piece of cloth, you'll wonder if it was worth it. But it will be too late then, and the only solace you will have is Bunny, the 6 foot tall shaved motherfucker who seems to want to be your new best friend.

And I will not care.

Ok why hasnt this convo ended you guys know these thing can never end if you keep fueling it.i think flag burning is wrong the others dont ok end of discussion.

Burn it... if you must.

I wholeheartedly support the right to burn it, mind you :)

Though I understand why people can be induced to attach great value to symbols, I usually feel somewhat uneasy among those people that do.

At the end of the day they are just symbols no more than that; not human lives, not civil liberties, not your country or any other thing one might stand for, merely symbols.

Better to burn Bush in effigy. It will get your point across just fine without burning a symbol of the country that is above any douche of a president.

Burning the flag is not work,it's mindless destruction for the sake of getting a rise out of someone, because if you think about it the only ones you piss off are your neighbors, the government doesn't give a rats ass what you burn, seeing as how you have to buy the flag before you can burn it, and then they can collect the taxes you paid on the thing.:p

Not work??? Have you ever TRIED to get one of those things lit? It's a LOT of work!

Pray tell, what rights of yours are violated when someone burns a flag?

His right to . . . ummmm . . . ummm . . . sorry, I've got nothing.

Ok why hasnt this convo ended you guys know these thing can never end if you keep fueling it.i think flag burning is wrong the others dont ok end of discussion.
That's not the issue. You can think it's "wrong" all the live-long day... but you can't make it illegal. At least not without a healthy dose of hypocrisy.

Nope.

It is the greatest irony of this nation that those who state that burning the flag disgraces this nation are the very ones that, in the attempts to ban flag burning, seek to gut the fundamental liberties that the nation upholds, the very rights that the symbol they seek to protect, represents.

The flag is a symbol of the laws of this nation. One of the most sacred of those rights, enshrined in the most important legal document we have, is the right to burn that flag in protest. The flag, at its most basic, represents the right to burn it. The greatest harm to that which the flag represents is caused not by those who burn it, but by those who would seek to prevent it for in doing so, they will destroy the very freedom that it represents.

That's not the issue. You can think it's "wrong" all the live-long day... but you can't make it illegal. At least not without a healthy dose of hypocrisy.

If we were to make illegal the act of burning something than it should be of books. Since we have that obvious historical figure who loved doing this and we know what this action represents I think having a law on this would make more sense than getting irked over the burning of a flag.

If we were to make illegal the act of burning something than it should be of books. Since we have that obvious historical figure who loved doing this and we know what this action represents I think having a law on this would make more sense than getting irked over the burning of a flag.

When did "sense" come into play in this topic?

If we were to make illegal the act of burning something than it should be of books. Since we have that obvious historical figure who loved doing this and we know what this action represents I think having a law on this would make more sense than getting irked over the burning of a flag.

Caliph Omar?

When did "sense" come into play in this topic?

Well sure there is that. Then again the political right in America rarely makes sense, why else would they waste time trying to ban gay marriage and flag burning when there is so much else to be done? I think I can call them all douchebags without there being any objections. At least I hope so.

Well sure there is that. Then again the political right in America rarely makes sense, why else would they waste time trying to ban gay marriage and flag burning when there is so much else to be done? I think I can call them all douchebags without there being any objections. At least I hope so.

Unfortunately not. If they hear of this the forumites who support bans on gay marriage, flag burning, and other right wing assaults on liberty will be in here to complain.

Personally, I'm a fan of the argument that the flag has been symbollically desecrated by Bush and his buddies, and that it therefore must be respectfully retired by fire.

Better to burn Bush in effigy. It will get your point across just fine without burning a symbol of the country that is above any douche of a president.

Not sure about that. Bush is a human being (okay, perhaps I should wait until I've been shown scientific proof of that, but anyway...) and symbolically executing someone is, to me, worse than burning a flag.

my view on this, when confronted by a "burning the flag means that you don't love this nation, and if you don't love this nation, you should leave it" is that the people using a pyrotechnics display in protest are the ones who love this nation the most.

they love this nation so much that they are willing to look beyond the romanticized notions held by so many others, and really see the flaws in our nation.

and before anything can be made better, you have to be willing to admit that there is something wrong with it.

This Herbert Macallum seems like a bit of a fool really, I mean why have a Constitution and inalienable rights if your never going to exercise them to the fullest extent?

Hey don't worry. Isn't real. I recognise that one: it's from The Onion, a satirical online paper. Specifically, http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28952

Yes, I do.