NationStates Jolt Archive


Should desegregation in education be forced?

Nova Magna Germania
29-03-2007, 20:48
I hold the opinion that neither segregation nor desegregation should be forced, because people should be free to choose whatever school they want their children to go to. What do you think? Here's relevant articles:


Wednesday, March 28, 2007
Race didn't affect tests
Results of study surprise officials

By Danielle Deaver
JOURNAL REPORTER

Give your opinion on this story

The school-choice plan that Winston-Salem/Forsyth County Schools put in place more than 10 years ago created racially segregated schools but did not affect students' performance in school, according to a study from a doctoral student at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

"Students are performing at the level you would expect them to perform, and it does not appear to be affected by school choice. That is the profound finding here," Dennis K. Orthner, a professor of public policy and social work at the university, told the Winston-Salem/Forsyth County school board last night.

Orthner presented the findings of Hinckley A. Jones-Sanpei, who studied school choice in the Winston-Salem/Forsyth County school system for her doctoral dissertation, titled "School Choice, Segregation, and Academic Outcomes: Educational Trajectories Under a Controlled Choice Student Assignment Policy." Orthner was her adviser.

"I felt like all along that students were not being disadvantaged," Superintendent Don Martin said. "They were not disadvantaged, but they were not advantaged."

Jones-Sanpei looked at the test scores of 11,000 students who were in the school system between 1992 and 2002. She found that the racial makeup of a student's school had no effect on his or her scores on standardized tests.

"Black students are not doing any better in middle-class schools than the black schools?" asked school-board member Vic Johnson.

"That's right. Just because they are in a majority black school does not mean that they are doing worse. Being in a school with more whites does not make a difference," Orthner said.

The findings were surprising, he said. "Previous studies have shown that school choice as it was implemented here tended to lead to greater racial homogeneity," he said. "What was unanticipated was that there would be no negative effects."

School choice and its effect on the racial makeup of the schools in Forsyth County have been controversial, and some community activists have said that school choice has hurt minority students' academic achievement.

School choice has created segregated schools, Orthner said. They expected racial majorities in schools to be between 32 percent and 68 percent. Instead, schools have as little as 13 percent and as high as 99 percent minorities.

"School choice in this district, does it promote more racial homogeneity? Absolutely. And as you've done it in this district it has produced schools that are majority white and majority black," he said.

The school system's Equity Plus program might have protected Winston-Salem students from the negative effects of school choice, he said. The schools with the highest number of poor students have smaller class sizes, and teachers are paid more to work there.

http://www.journalnow.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=WSJ/MGArticle/WSJ_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1173350448813



Supreme Court weighs role of race in school admissions
POSTED: 11:04 p.m. EST, December 4, 2006

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- More than 50 years after the Supreme Court outlawed segregation in public schools, the justices struggled over one controversial outgrowth of that decision Monday.

They are divided over what role race should play, if any, in competitive admissions at elementary and secondary schools.

Some justices highlighted the benefits of racial diversity in the classroom, while others on the bench worried about whether the voluntary integration programs constitute illegal racial quotas.

The cases from Kentucky and Washington state revisit past disputes over race and education. The issues stem from the landmark 1954 Brown v. Board of Education decision ending racial separation in public facilities.(Watch what's coming before the Supreme Court about race Video)

Louisville, Kentucky, and Seattle, Washington, have embraced their school-choice plans in many quarters.

But while local officials say a key goal is diversity, some families call it discrimination.

"It's very hard for me to see how you can have a racial objective," said Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, "but a non-racial means to get there."

She and Justices John Paul Stevens, David Souter, and Stephen Breyer seemed more sympathetic toward the diversity programs.

But judging from the questioning in two hours of spirited oral arguments, a conservative bloc led by Chief Justice John Roberts may have the five votes needed to overturn them.

"The purpose of the (Constitution's) equal protection clause is to ensure that people are treated as individuals, rather than based on the color of their skin," said Roberts. "So saying that this doesn't involve individualized determinations simply highlights the fact that the decision to distribute, as you put it, is based on skin color and not any other factor."
Equality without affirmative action programs?

While those on both sides of the issue agree classroom diversity is an important goal, differences remain over how to maintain it without the real or perceived consequence that some families may be discriminated against or inconvenienced.

A ruling next year could help clarify when, and to what lengths, state and local officials can go to promote diversity in K-12 education.

In a landmark case three years ago, the justices declared racial quotas unconstitutional while offering a limited, but powerful endorsement of affirmative action in higher education.

The justices disagreed on whether that legal standard should apply in elementary and secondary schools.

Outside the court, hundreds of demonstrators -- many of them African-American college students -- marched and chanted in support of the affirmative action plans.

Some carried signs such as "Equal education, not segregation."

Louisville-area schools endured decades of federal court oversight after schools there were slow to integrate.

When that oversight ended in the late 1990s, county officials sought to maintain integration, requiring most public schools have at least 15 percent and no more than 50 percent African-American enrollment.

The idea was to reflect the whole of Louisville's Jefferson County, which is 60 percent white and 38 percent black. Officials say the plan reflects not only the need for diversity, but also the desire of parents for greater school choice.
An admissions "tiebreaker"

A white parent, Crystal Meredith, sued, saying her child was twice denied admission to the school nearest their home and had to endure a three-hour bus ride to a facility that was not their top choice.

Her lawyer, Teddy B. Gordon, questioned why parents would be forced to choose between classroom quality and diversity.

"Educational outcome is the only key," he said.

But Breyer said he was worried about the long-term impact if diversity plans were abandoned.

"There's a terrible problem -- lots and lots of districts are becoming more and more segregated and school boards are struggling," he said. "And if they knew an easy way, they'd do it. I do know courts are not very good at figuring that out."

Countering that, Justice Anthony Kennedy told Francis Mellen Jr., attorney for Louisville, that the plan presented "a troubling case."

In Seattle, public schools often rely on a "tiebreaker."

Under the city's public school plan, initiated in 1998, families can send their children to any school in their district. When there are more applicants than spaces available, and when a school is not considered "racially balanced," race is one of several "integration tiebreakers" used to achieve diversity.

A group composed primarily of white parents from two neighborhoods sued in 2001. The complaint involved 200 students who were not admitted to the schools of their choice, preventing them from attending the facilities nearest to their homes.

One school at the center of the controversy is Franklin High. Half of its roughly 1,500 students are Asian-American, a third are African-American, and about 7 percent are Hispanic.

White enrollment dropped from 23 percent in 2000 to just 10 percent last year.

Franklin's diversity plan has been suspended while the appeals are working their way through the courts.

Justice Kennedy repeatedly raised concerns about Seattle's plan, telling attorney Michael Madden, "The problem is, that unlike strategic siting, magnet schools, special resources, special programs in some schools, you're characterizing each student by the reason of the color of his or her skin."

"That is quite a different means," he said. "And it seems to me that that should only be, if ever allowed, allowed as a last resort."

Madden replied that the Seattle school district has been competing with various forces.

"It's important to the credibility and functionality of the school system to have a system that is accepted by the public, by our constituents. And so people like choice," the attorney said.

"They also like neighborhood schools. They also like diverse schools. And the board recognized when it set about to develop this plan that accommodating all of those values would require some trade-offs."

Madden also argued Seattle's policy does not violate the law, since students are not turned away from the district.

And he claimed the current school-assignment plans require less busing for racial purposes and provide more choice for parents than did earlier plans.

The sticking point could be whether those efforts represent a "compelling government interest."
"Race-neutral" goes undefined

The Bush administration supports the parents bringing suit against the choice plans.

Solicitor General Paul Clement told the justices that the two plans at issue represent "very stark racial quotas."

He argued they are a "clear effort to get the schools to mimic the overall community," and that other "race-neutral" means to achieve classroom diversity should be used.

Souter pressed for specifics on what "race-neutral" means, but Clement did not elaborate. And Souter wondered how schools could ensure racial isolation in schools would not reach "extreme disparity."

"The question comes down to whether they (school officials) can do it candidly or do it clumsily," Souter said. "That is, it seems to me, an unacceptable basis to draw a constitutional line."

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/12/04/race.school/index.html
Neesika
29-03-2007, 20:50
Desegregation? How behind are you?

I could care less what 'races' my children's schoolmates end up being. That's not how I chose their school.
Nova Magna Germania
29-03-2007, 20:52
Desegregation? How behind are you?



I'm not talking about the one which was legally mandated.
Neesika
29-03-2007, 20:59
I'm not talking about the one which was legally mandated.

OMG you're Canadian?

That's chilling. Or wait...are you in the NS version of Canada, but actually a USian?

Why is this even an issue for you?
Nova Magna Germania
29-03-2007, 21:02
OMG you're Canadian?

That's chilling. Or wait...are you in the NS version of Canada, but actually a USian?

Why is this even an issue for you?

You know what NS stands for in Canada, dont you, instead of Nation States?
Nodinia
29-03-2007, 21:08
My phrase book of crap fake German for Movies/Video games says

"ACTHUNG!!111!!! DER TROLLERPOSTUN -ALARM!!11!!ALARM!!!!" (preferably delivered while running about in headless chicken style before being killed by an exploding barrell)
Neesika
29-03-2007, 21:10
You know what NS stands for in Canada, dont you, instead of Nation States?

NOOOO! But, but, I usually like people from NS. :(

And last time I looked, all you white NSers had to 'worry' about were the Miqmaq and a few blacks here and there. So again...what gives?
Nova Magna Germania
29-03-2007, 21:11
My phrase book of crap fake German for Movies/Video games says

"ACTHUNG!!111!!! DER TROLLERPOSTUN -ALARM!!11!!ALARM!!!!" (preferably delivered while running about in headless chicken style before being killed by an exploding barrell)

Psychological projection:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
Free Soviets
29-03-2007, 21:15
What do you think?

that the 50s were a long time ago
Nodinia
29-03-2007, 21:18
Psychological projection:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

So I really am a troll, or an extra in a low budget WWII movie? Fuck me, I never guessed....
G-Max
29-03-2007, 21:25
We should just ignore race and hope that it goes away.
Fassigen
29-03-2007, 21:35
that the 50s were a long time ago

50s? Oh, yeah. I forget how behind the times the US was even then...
Kryozerkia
29-03-2007, 21:40
You know what NS stands for in Canada, dont you, instead of Nation States?

New Scotland! You kilt wearing scallywag! ;) Go back to Cape Breton and Highland dance your little heart out. :P

EDIT - I know it's Nova Scotia; I just take pride in being a bald-faced jackass when given the chance.
Fassigen
29-03-2007, 21:44
I just take pride in being a bald-faced jackass when given the chance.

And, boy, does the chance present often!

/I rib.
Gravlen
29-03-2007, 21:44
This... has got nothing to do with me.
http://www.freesmileys.org/emo/whacky114.gif

My phrase book of crap fake German for Movies/Video games says

"ACTHUNG!!111!!! DER TROLLERPOSTUN -ALARM!!11!!ALARM!!!!" (preferably delivered while running about in headless chicken style before being killed by an exploding barrell)
Kinda like this?

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u275/Gravlen/NSG/Smilies%20and%20animated%20stuff/ohnoesiy6.gif
Free Soviets
29-03-2007, 21:45
50s? Oh, yeah. I forget how behind the times the US was even then...

we fell behind the times fairly soon after the revolution, because we didn't complete it and instead entrenched a powerful class of racist slave-owning fucktards into national power. shit, they actually had to abolish the right of women to vote (in some places) during the counterrevolution.
Fassigen
29-03-2007, 21:46
we fell behind the times fairly soon after the revolution, because we didn't complete it and instead entrenched a powerful class of racist slave-owning fucktards into national power. shit, they actually had to abolish the right of women to vote (in some places) during the counterrevolution.

Quite the beacon on the hill, there.
Kryozerkia
29-03-2007, 21:46
And, boy, does the chance present often!

/I rib.

Woohoo!! :D:p
Nova Magna Germania
29-03-2007, 21:53
...Fuck me....

I know that's a british expression, but it does sound funny.
Nova Magna Germania
29-03-2007, 21:58
New Scotland! You kilt wearing scallywag! ;) Go back to Cape Breton and Highland dance your little heart out. :P

EDIT - I know it's Nova Scotia; I just take pride in being a bald-faced jackass when given the chance.

LOL. I'm not actually NSian but here for post-secondary education. But I did wear kilt and I felt damn sexy :p

And dont forget that we also drink ourselves into oblivion in St Patrick's day with green beer. Not directly related to Scots but still Celtic.
Johnny B Goode
29-03-2007, 22:13
50s? Oh, yeah. I forget how behind the times the US was even then...

Fass: The poster boy for homophobia. El Douchebaggano rides again.
Fassigen
29-03-2007, 22:20
Fass: The poster boy for homophobia.

Yeah, closet cases would have a soiled poster of me, but I don't see how that's either here or there.
Free Soviets
29-03-2007, 22:22
Quite the beacon on the hill, there.

the glowing is our radioactive waste dumped on indigenous peoples' lands
Fassigen
29-03-2007, 22:23
the glowing is our radioactive waste dumped on indigenous peoples' lands

The casinos add glisten!
The blessed Chris
29-03-2007, 22:27
Bah. Fairly anachronistic system of education in the OP, however, gven the utter calamity that exists in secondary education in the UK, I hardly feel empowered to excoriate much.
Johnny B Goode
29-03-2007, 22:31
Yeah, closet cases would have a soiled poster of me, but I don't see how that's either here or there.

It's really my subtle way of saying "Get lost, douchebag."
Fassigen
29-03-2007, 22:34
It's really my subtle way of saying "Get lost, douchebag."

Hmm, I didn't know "subtle" was a euphemism for "failed".
Johnny B Goode
29-03-2007, 22:37
Hmm, I didn't know "subtle" was a euphemism for "failed".

Oh, dear. You almost made me style my text. I've got better things to do than argue with you, like watching crappy 80s cartoons.
Shx
29-03-2007, 22:42
Seggregation should be illegal in publically funded institutions.

I do not feel the admissions should be based on the portion of ethnic groups in an area or on a quota system. I think the intake should reflect the applications. If 30% of the applicants are of a certain race but only 10% of the intake chosen is of that race then you have something very strange going on in the admissions process.

If the admission is not based on test results or applicant ability (which to my knowlege public school admissions are not, or should not be based on) then the intake ratio should be pretty close to the applicant ratio. If there is a large disparity with a trend running over a few years then the school should have to justify or explain the improbable statistical anomonoly.

While I do not think the race of a childs classmates matters (although exposing them positively to different cultures and people while young is often a good idea) I think that if a school has a rascist admissions policy then the school could very well actively or passively transfer the rascism that caused that policy to the students.

For privately funded schools - I think they should be able to segregate as much as they want, makes it easier to know which parents to not be friends with.
Kiryu-shi
29-03-2007, 22:43
I went to a school that was over 90% hispanic and black, and saw minority kids develop distrust of white people, and the "Man" because of lack of exposure to white people, so, yeah, kinda.

And I lived in a neighborhood that was probably 40% white, just the white parents mostly felt the need to fake addresses so that they would be in another school district so they could attent the "better" (read: whiter and richer) school, so, yeah, I kind of feel that segregation in the education system is still a problem in one of the most "liberal" areas in one of the most "liberal" cities in America... Depressing as hell. Or of course, the Education Department could just redraw the district lines so that the white kids could legally go to the "better" school and ignore the problem, which is actually what happened.

Also, my old magnet high school probably was 5% black, and most of the kids there came from the NYC public education system. Why? Cause the inner city schools are generally overcrowded and underfunded, because the parents are too poor to give the schools money, and too uneducated/distrustful to put any pressure on the school system. I wish someone could come up with a system to actually make an equal education for all public schools and actually implement it. Gah.
Deus Malum
29-03-2007, 22:46
50s? Oh, yeah. I forget how behind the times the US was even then...

Hey, just because you guys were some of the first to give voting to women, doesn't mean you can rag on us about not giving it to them until over a century later.
Free Soviets
29-03-2007, 22:51
Hey, just because you guys were some of the first to give voting to women, doesn't mean you can rag on us about not giving it to them until over a century later.

actually, new jersey wins in the modern western world on that score. given in 1776, stolen in 1807. which just makes us even worse.
Deus Malum
29-03-2007, 22:56
actually, new jersey wins in the modern western world on that score. given in 1776, stolen in 1807. which just makes us even worse.

Aye, but it was just a technicality. As I recall, "people" were given the right to vote, and it was ruled that "people" meant "men." Not exactly the most progressive country in the world, as much as I love it.
Nova Magna Germania
30-03-2007, 01:56
Seggregation should be illegal in publically funded institutions.

I do not feel the admissions should be based on the portion of ethnic groups in an area or on a quota system. I think the intake should reflect the applications. If 30% of the applicants are of a certain race but only 10% of the intake chosen is of that race then you have something very strange going on in the admissions process.

If the admission is not based on test results or applicant ability (which to my knowlege public school admissions are not, or should not be based on) then the intake ratio should be pretty close to the applicant ratio. If there is a large disparity with a trend running over a few years then the school should have to justify or explain the improbable statistical anomonoly.

While I do not think the race of a childs classmates matters (although exposing them positively to different cultures and people while young is often a good idea) I think that if a school has a rascist admissions policy then the school could very well actively or passively transfer the rascism that caused that policy to the students.

For privately funded schools - I think they should be able to segregate as much as they want, makes it easier to know which parents to not be friends with.

I think you got it backwards. But it's still cool, most people didnt even understand (from the references to 50's).

The thing is, when given the choice and while race isnt a criteria in admissions, these conditions create segregated schools. (at least in Winston-Salem/Forsyth County) So some schools are trying to use race as a criteria in their admissions policies to increase diversity. And this issue is currently in US Supreme Court.
Infinite Revolution
30-03-2007, 02:07
i can't be bothered to read the articles. on what lines of segregation are you talking about. the only ones i can think of that still legitimately happen are on wealth, sex and religion. i'd break down all of those if i could. maybe not religion, that would violate freedom of religious expression probably.