NationStates Jolt Archive

Well if this has already been discussed, referenced or been the topic of an earlier thread I haven't noticed, and I did try searching the forum a bit - but enough of all that, check this out:

Jersey City resident Corey Andrew, posting a profile on CareerBuilder.com, brought the wrath of Army recruiter Sgt. Marcia Ramode, who used her work e-mail to send Andrew a series of racist and homophobic rants.

Ramode wrote to Andrew at one point, "You must be a total idiot and so stupid to presume that you do not know what gender you are," Andrew, in turn, poked fun at Ramode's spelling and grammar, and added, "Take that to your next rain dance."

Ramode, who is Native American, responded in part, "GO BACK TO AFRICA AND DO YOUR GAY VOODOO LIMBO TANGO AND WANGO DANCE AND JUMP AROUND AND PRANCE AND RUN ALL OVER THE PLACE." The Army is currently investigating the matter.

http://www.shortnews.com/shownews.cfm?id=61342

there's screen captures of some of the emails here:

http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=1153

I'm really torn between shaking my head with my lower lip hanging open and laughing heartily while pointing at people wearing uniforms.

Thoughts?

I saw the article a couple of days ago, and sadly, about the only thing I could say is I'm not surprised. It was bound to happen eventually, and I'm sure it has happened before and just hasn't come out. I'd like to think that the recruiter was transferred out of that duty and put somewhere more suitable. Baghdad comes to mind.

I had to laugh at the subheadliner on the news article, "Gay Jersey City Man Told To 'Go Back To Africa, Do Gay Voodoo Dance Half-Naked There" LOL its so ridiculous its funny.

This b* that wrote this to him though deserves to be reduced in rank and given some form of punishmen. Not only was she homophobic, she showed herself to be RACIST as well. I read the entirety of the emails, and honestly the FULL TEXT that I read on that website that had the PDF of the email exchange From the part where the black man said to her about the "rain dance" he had said before that how Native Americans were more tolerant of homosexuality than she was and believed in natural spirit. That was the only place he made a off comment really, other than intellectually criticizing her. And he ADMITTED to saying the comment in the news article. So she is a lot more wrong than her I think.

I hope she gets what she deserves. Would love to see the hate mail and phone calls she is getting now. She better watch her back though, because she also made some very racist comments that I don't think any black person will appreciate.

I read about this on slog. All I can say is, I'm glad she was dumb enough to put it in writing.
Gales it easier to prosecute her.

I don't think the invitation to take it to the next rain dance was exactly helpful. But this whole affair did elicit a few chuckles from me.

I'm really upset that a native woman would say such horrible things. Two-spirited people are respected in our cultures. She's internalised some pretty non-traditional views. What a douchebag. She shouldn't really talk about her roots when she's abandoned them on this issue big time.

You're Native American/Indian? (Whichever you prefer)
I'm First Nations, Cree, yes.

I'm really upset that a native woman would say such horrible things. Two-spirited people are respected in our cultures. She's internalised some pretty non-traditional views. What a douchebag. She shouldn't really talk about her roots when she's abandoned them on this issue big time.

You're Native American/Indian? (Whichever you prefer)

Implying, of course, that every person who is in the military shares these opinions.

You may consider military service below you, but it's a fact that better men and women than you protect you and your right to hold these vile opinions. Unless you don't live in America, then I don't give a shit about what you think of our military.

Accept it, and move on.

The man in question did live in the US, I am a voting citizen of the US, and the woman in question was being bigoted and racist.

W.T.F?

wow

I read about this on slog. All I can say is, I'm glad she was dumb enough to put it in writing.
Gales it easier to prosecute her.

As much as I'm repulsed by her comments, I'm really uncomfortable of the idea of prosecuting people just because they say something we don't like. The only exception to that is if that person was inciting/threatening violence, which the army recruiter wasn't doing.

While I'm not defending Bigot A, it looks like the gay man is Bigot B here what with the "take that to your next rain dance" comment. So, to both of them a big fat :upyours:, and an extra one for the army lady because she sounds worse than he is :upyours:

Implying, of course, that every person who is in the military shares these opinions.

You may consider military service below you, but it's a fact that better men and women than you protect you and your right to hold these vile opinions. Unless you don't live in America, then I don't give a shit about what you think of our military.

Accept it, and move on.

No, it's one thing to hold these vile opinions.

It's another to express them via official methods of communication.

It's not about military service being low or high. This woman brings shame to the military, and that needs to be dealt with. Moving on and ignoring it would bring the military into greater disrepute than dealing with the issue.

The man in question did live in the US, I am a voting citizen of the US, and the woman in question was being bigoted and racist.

I was talking to our friend the military-hater, Dobbsworld.

Implying, of course, that every person who is in the military shares these opinions.

You may consider military service below you, but it's a fact that better men and women than you protect you and your right to hold these vile opinions.

Ah yes, our "vile" opinions that we should not express in spite of the first amendment that is allegedly being defended by the troops.

You may consider military service below you, but it's a fact that better men and women than you protect you and your right to hold these vile opinions. Unless you don't live in America, then I don't give a shit about what you think of our military.

It's a fact, is it? Do you know these supposedly "better" men and women? Do you know the posters you're refering to? I'm very interested to know on what basis you make such judgments. If it is a fact, surely you have some facts to back this up with? Or perhaps you just can't see past your own overblown patriotism, and don't actually feel the need to deal with facts?

Saying that someone being in the military automatically makes them a good, let alone better person, is just plain dumb, and way too jingoistic for any rational person.

Believe it or not, those that disagree with you can be good people. Yeah, even better than you.

Accept it, and move on.

Take your own advice.


I was talking to our friend the military-hater, Dobbsworld.

Ah, so that is your sole criterion. Grow up.


As for me, I think the sgt. definitely could use punishment. Busting her rank would be a start. Ignorance and hate should not be endorsed by the government or its military.

As much as I'm repulsed by her comments, I'm really uncomfortable of the idea of prosecuting people just because they say something we don't like. The only exception to that is if that person was inciting/threatening violence, which the army recruiter wasn't doing.

I highly doubt a civilian would see any legal problems from this, although it would be highly embarrassing and the use of work email could lead to a firing. However, the military pretty much has its own code. She could certainly be prosecuted for conduct unbecoming, if nothing else.

While I'm not defending Bigot A, it looks like the gay man is Bigot B here what with the "take that to your next rain dance" comment. So, to both of them a big fat :upyours:, and an extra one for the army lady because she sounds worse than he is :upyours:

Honestly, my hackles rose at the rain-dance comment...but that seems like it's pretty much ALL he said...after pointing out to her that it wasn't really part of her culture to hate homosexuals.

No, it's one thing to hold these vile opinions.

It's another to express them via official methods of communication.

It's not about military service being low or high. This woman brings shame to the military, and that needs to be dealt with. Moving on and ignoring it would bring the military into greater disrepute than dealing with the issue.

You bring up some interesting points, Neesika, but I think you're missing the gist of what I said.

First of all, I agree that these opinions are vile and pig-headed. I also agree that writing them is a very stupid thing to do, although this technically does fall under freedom of speech, so I see no legal basis on which to prosecute the army recruiter.

Dobbsworld stated that he didn't know "whether he should point and laugh at a person in uniform" because of this incident. Clearly, he's no fan of the military, and I was merely reminding him who it is that protects him.

I agree that this recruiter brings shame and dishonor to the army, and she should be demoted or removed from recruiting alltogether.

Ah yes, our "vile" opinions that we should not express in spite of the first amendment that is allegedly being defended by the troops.
Shh, don't you know that your rights are only to be used to sing the praises of the military?

Getting back on topic, while I hate what she has to say, it's her right to have these opinions and she shouldn't be broken because of them.

That being said, she should be prunished for saying them using offical chanels/government time. If my tax dollars are going towards her salary, I'd prefer she refrain from using her professional email and time for spewing hate.

Ah yes, our "vile" opinions that we should not express in spite of the first amendment that is allegedly being defended by the troops.

Express them all you like. I wouldn't dream of stopping you. I'm just expressing mine.

Or do I not have that right?

Honestly, my hackles rose at the rain-dance comment...but that seems like it's pretty much ALL he said...after pointing out to her that it wasn't really part of her culture to hate homosexuals.
Question though, do all Indian/Native American nations have such a culture, or is it varried througout the different nations?

Clearly, he's no fan of the military, and I was merely reminding him who it is that protects him.
The military protects Dobbs? From what exactly, does she need protection from?

Nonetheless, you did suggest we should just move on. I think that rather, a good example could be made here, and help improve the overall reputation of the military by showing that racism and homophobia is NOT acceptable in the ranks.

It's a fact, is it? Do you know these supposedly "better" men and women? Do you know the posters you're refering to? I'm very interested to know on what basis you make such judgments. If it is a fact, surely you have some facts to back this up with? Or perhaps you just can't see past your own overblown patriotism, and don't actually feel the need to deal with facts?

Saying that someone being in the military automatically makes them a good, let alone better person, is just plain dumb, and way too jingoistic for any rational person.

Believe it or not, those that disagree with you can be good people. Yeah, even better than you.


Take your own advice.




Ah, so that is your sole criterion. Grow up.


As for me, I think the sgt. definitely could use punishment. Busting her rank would be a start. Ignorance and hate should not be endorsed by the government or its military.

Yes, I have friends who are in the military, and some who're veterans. Most of them are the embodiment of duty, honor and sacrifice, which are just abstract concepts to most Americans.

Don't put words in my mouth. There are plenty of people in the military who are not good people. However, it takes an individual with determination to even get through bootcamp, never mind serve out the rest of their enlistment. For that, I respect them more than I do someone who doesn't serve.

I welcome disagreement. I don't think most people I disagree with are bad people, not even Dobbsworld. You, on the other hand, seem to think I'm jingoistic, dumb and irrational. So much for taking your own advice.

If you can't disagree civilly than don't disagree at all.

I was talking to our friend the military-hater, Dobbsworld.

The thread isn't actually about my personal feelings regarding militarism, so kindly do go get stuffed.

You may consider military service below you, but it's a fact that better men and women than you protect you and your right to hold these vile opinions. Unless you don't live in America, then I don't give a shit about what you think of our military.

Fine. As you're being exclusive about it, I don't really give a shit about your contributions to this thread so far, either. You're evidently looking for a dust-up of some sort, but from where I'm sitting, I've already won. Go find someone else to butt heads with or keep it on topic, whichever you prefer, but fuck if I'll put up with this bullshit I keep getting off you knuckleheads.

Question though, do all Indian/Native American nations have such a culture, or is it varried througout the different nations?

I honestly don't know of any exceptions, particularily in North America. Some nations give the two-spirited different positions of respect...lawgiver, medicine keeper...or if not that, then it is just accepted that they are as they are.

The military protects Dobbs? From what exactly, does she need protection from?

Nonetheless, you did suggest we should just move on. I think that rather, a good example could be made here, and help improve the overall reputation of the military by showing that racism and homophobia is NOT acceptable in the ranks.

Ever heard of al-Qaida?

That's what I've been saying. She should be demoted and moved to another post.

I'm really upset that a native woman would say such horrible things. Two-spirited people are respected in our cultures. She's internalised some pretty non-traditional views. What a douchebag. She shouldn't really talk about her roots when she's abandoned them on this issue big time.

I was under the impression that "two-spirited" referred to those who are transgendered. Does it also encompass homosexuality?

Honestly, my hackles rose at the rain-dance comment...but that seems like it's pretty much ALL he said...after pointing out to her that it wasn't really part of her culture to hate homosexuals.

There's 2 issues here, first is who's to blame? I'd really like to see the first reply as it seems Jersey Boy wrote to point out grammar and spelling mistakes while launching into an anti-military diatribe based on their attitude towards gays. Anyone on these boards can understand how these things escalate very quickly.

The second issue is, in her professional capacity, she should not have fallen into a flame war. For that lack of judgement she should take whatever measures are brought against her.

The thread isn't actually about my personal feelings regarding militarism, so kindly do go get stuffed.



Fine. As you're being exclusive about it, I don't really give a shit about your contributions to this thread so far, either. You're evidently looking for a dust-up of some sort, but from where I'm sitting, I've already won. Go find someone else to butt heads with or keep it on topic, whichever you prefer, but fuck if I'll put up with this bullshit I keep getting off you knuckleheads.

This is what you said in your first post.

I'm really torn between shaking my head with my lower lip hanging open and laughing heartily while pointing at people wearing uniforms.

Pretty strong statement right there regarding the military.

Strange how I'm the one looking for a "dust-up" when you blatantly disrespect those who serve. Some people will disagree with what you say, that doesn't equate to picking fights.

And what exactly have you won? Being the first to use the f word in your posts?

I was under the impression that "two-spirited" referred to those who are transgendered. Does it also encompass homosexuality?

Yup. Two-spirited people are considered to have various aspects of both the male and female personality...whether that is expressed in loving people of the same sex, or in being transgendered, it's still the same idea. It's about spirit, not sexuality.

This is what you said in your first post.

I'm really torn between shaking my head with my lower lip hanging open and laughing heartily while pointing at people wearing uniforms.

Pretty strong statement right there regarding the military.

Strange how I'm the one looking for a "dust-up" when you blatantly disrespect those who serve. Some people will disagree with what you say, that doesn't equate to picking fights.

And what exactly have you won? Being the first to use the f word in your posts?

You've got Swiss cheese propped up on your shoulders if you think that was a "pretty strong statement". Fuck those who serve. Now there's a pretty strong statement. See the difference?

Yes, I have friends who are in the military, and some who're veterans. Most of them are the embodiment of duty, honor and sacrifice, which are just abstract concepts to most Americans.

I never claimed good people didn't serve. I have family who are veterans. However, I flatly disagree that those that serve in the military have a monopoly on duty, honor, or sacrifice.

Don't put words in my mouth. There are plenty of people in the military who are not good people. However, it takes an individual with determination to even get through bootcamp, never mind serve out the rest of their enlistment. For that, I respect them more than I do someone who doesn't serve.

Once again, I didn't say it didn't take determination. That proves nothing about a person's worth, however.

I welcome disagreement. I don't think most people I disagree with are bad people, not even Dobbsworld. You, on the other hand, seem to think I'm jingoistic, dumb and irrational. So much for taking your own advice.

Jingoistic, dumb, and irrational only insofar as you judge those who disagree with your stance on the military as somehow lesser than those who serve. Going into the military does not make one better in any way, shape or form. Well, except insofar as they physically do get into better shape and form than most people, one hopes.

Simply because one does not serve, or view the military with the degree of esteem as you does not make them lesser than military personel. Period.

If you can't disagree civilly than don't disagree at all.

Who's not being civil? :)


As for the ethnicity discussion, it does seem somewhat strange that a minority would be so hateful toward another like that, simply because of shared oppression (or someother, better word). Always strikes me as strange that some hard done by group jumps on another, instead of recognizing the similar fights both face. Not that I'd expect all minority groups to agree on everything, mind you. It's just the hate that is somewhat...disheartening?

But then, I'm white, male, and straight, so what the hell do I know about it, really?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AchillesLastStand
This is what you said in your first post.

I'm really torn between shaking my head with my lower lip hanging open and laughing heartily while pointing at people wearing uniforms.

Pretty strong statement right there regarding the military.

Strange how I'm the one looking for a "dust-up" when you blatantly disrespect those who serve. Some people will disagree with what you say, that doesn't equate to picking fights.

And what exactly have you won? Being the first to use the f word in your posts?

Originally Posted by Dobbsworld

You've got Swiss cheese propped up on your shoulders if you think that was a "pretty strong statement". Fuck those who serve. Now there's a pretty strong statement. See the difference?

Cool - we're getting a real-time re-enaction of the original event

You've got Swiss cheese propped up on your shoulders if you think that was a "pretty strong statement". Fuck those who serve. Now there's a pretty strong statement. See the difference?

Your first statement conveyed your negative opinion of the troops strongly enough.

Your second blows away the last vestiges of doubt on where you stand on this issue.

Thanks for the clarity, I'll keep in mind what you said the next time we're debating something.

You ever hear the rule, it's 10% what you say and 90% how you say it?

It's not what you said. It's how you went about sahing it. You could have just said "I disagree that everyone in uniform deserved to be laughed at".

But you didn't.

You went on to say that the people serving in the military are better people who are protecting us from the ebil muslim terrorists and we should get down and thank them for being such wonderful people.

A sycophant is rarely an attractive role to take.

Your second blows away the last vestiges of doubt on where you stand on this issue.

The fact that you would take dobb's example as her actual position suggests that:

1) you're not capable of having a serious discusison
2) you're a troll
3) she's right and you're just looking for a fight

Your first statement conveyed your negative opinion of the troops strongly enough.

Your second blows away the last vestiges of doubt on where you stand on this issue.

Thanks for the clarity, I'll keep in mind what you said the next time we're debating something.

So glad to clear the air. Do come again.

[I]Cool - we're getting a real-time re-enaction of the original event

Bring popcorn. I hear it's coming in 3-d this summer.

Your first statement conveyed your negative opinion of the troops strongly enough.

Your second blows away the last vestiges of doubt on where you stand on this issue.

Thanks for the clarity, I'll keep in mind what you said the next time we're debating something.

So if you're debating, say, abortion with somebody, their views on the military matters? How would that even kind of make a difference on the rightness or wrongness of their arguments? I don't think you can pull out "But you don't support the troops. I WIN!" and expect it to go over. At least, not on this board.

As much as I'm repulsed by her comments, I'm really uncomfortable of the idea of prosecuting people just because they say something we don't like. The only exception to that is if that person was inciting/threatening violence, which the army recruiter wasn't doing.

While I agree I also shy away from making speech of any form illegal. I definatly think that the Army ... The "employer" has the right to view this as a glaring flaw in the character of the recruiter (specially in light that the whole job is interfacing with people)

If that was my public relations employee they sure as hell would get canned

The fact that you would take dobb's example as her actual position suggests that:

1) you're not capable of having a serious discusison
2) you're a troll
3) she's right and you're just looking for a fight

Thank you. I wearied at the thought of having to explain that all to Patroclus' boyfriend's last stand, there.

I never claimed good people didn't serve. I have family who are veterans. However, I flatly disagree that those that serve in the military have a monopoly on duty, honor, or sacrifice.



Once again, I didn't say it didn't take determination. That proves nothing about a person's worth, however.



Jingoistic, dumb, and irrational only insofar as you judge those who disagree with your stance on the military as somehow lesser than those who serve. Going into the military does not make one better in any way, shape or form. Well, except insofar as they physically do get into better shape and form than most people, one hopes.

Simply because one does not serve, or view the military with the degree of esteem as you does not make them lesser than military personel. Period.



Who's not being civil? :)


As for the ethnicity discussion, it does seem somewhat strange that a minority would be so hateful toward another like that, simply because of shared oppression (or someother, better word). Always strikes me as strange that some hard done by group jumps on another, instead of recognizing the similar fights both face. Not that I'd expect all minority groups to agree on everything, mind you. It's just the hate that is somewhat...disheartening?

But then, I'm white, male, and straight, so what the hell do I know about it, really?

1. I think that serving in the Peace Corps, or doing community work gives a person claim to duty and sacrifice. Just like serving in the military does. As long as you do something. So we agree there.
2. On the contrary, I think that military service is the highest form of patriotism, not dissent as the Left claims. It takes a special kind of person to go through the military process and to risk their life for their country. I view those who hate the military with far less respect than those who have served. I think that's a rational and well-founded opinion to hold, nothing dumb or jingoistic about it. If someone does not serve simply because they didn't want to, it doesn't make them a bad person in the least, it just means that I view them with less respect than someone who has served. Just like I view someone who achieves high grades in school better than someone who doesn't.
3. I've noticed that there is tension between minorities when you wouldn't expect it. For example, there was that Asian guy who wrote that blacks should be persecuted, and there's violence in the inner cities between latinos and blacks. Always did strike me as odd.

It takes a special kind of person to go through the military process

No, just a very desperate one.

I've heard this creature Marcia Ramode and her despicable attitude used (by liberals no less) as a prime reason to bring back the draft that was abolished by Nixon.

Back in the day - up to the late 70s - military service was an American tradition that leveled the social playing field, bringing young men rich and poor of every state together in a process that broadened their horizons. Military service wasn't some fetishised holy state that confired some sort of inherent superiority, it was a fact of life in every family. Today in the volunteer army there are only three kinds of recruits:

1. Traditional military families (a small group)
2. The desperate poor who have no other future.
3. Psychopaths - uniform fetishists, neo-nazis and other flavours of authoritarian nutjobs.

Most of these people enter military life already carrying a big chip on their shoulder and a feeling of disenfranchisement and disconnectedness from society. Then the military further isolates them, oh and arms them.

And then we act surprised when one of America's finest turns out to be an ignorant, racist, semi-literate paranoid? There's nothing better or "special" about Marcia Ramode, except in the bicycle helmet sense of the word.

Back in the day - up to the late 70s - military service was an American tradition that leveled the social playing field, bringing young men rich and poor of every state together in a process that broadened their horizons. Military service wasn't some fetishised holy state that confired some sort of inherent superiority, it was a fact of life in every family.
Which day was this one now? Because, except for very few times, the US didn't have compulsive military service for everyone.

What's that? Racist and anti-gay rantings from someone in the military of any country on Earth?

I'm shocked, people, absolutely shocked!! :rolleyes:

Because it's not like any military has had its share of bigots and jerkoffs before! :rolleyes:

However, I flatly disagree that those that serve in the military have a monopoly on duty, honor, or sacrifice.

I agree with this completely. However, living up to a certain set of values is in this soldier's job description. When a civilian doesn't live up to their stated values we call them a cockbag and be done with it. When a soldier doesn't live up to them, they deserve to be punished. This particular soldier failed to live up to the Army value of Respect and deserves to be punished. Not only that, she failed to live up to the NCO Creed "No one is more professional than I" and no longer deserves to be an NCO.

Implying, of course, that every person who is in the military shares these opinions.It implies nothing of the sort. Ddefensive or something?

You may consider military service below you, but it's a fact that better men and women than you protect you and your right to hold these vile opinions. Unless you don't live in America, then I don't give a shit about what you think of our military.

Accept it, and move on.
It's not a fact that military men and women are better than the rest of us, and this sort of action is proof of that. Yes, they make sacrifices and yes they deserve a certain level of respect for that, but better? Get over yourself.

It's not a fact that military men and women are better than the rest of us, and this sort of action is proof of that. Yes, they make sacrifices and yes they deserve a certain level of respect for that, but better? Get over yourself.

Actually, people in the military are merely a microcosm of our current society - an abstract of the whole.

So what does that tell you, in relation to the OP?

Actually, people in the military are merely a microcosm of our current society - an abstract of the whole.

So what does that tell you, in relation to the OP?

Well, it tells me that people wearing uniforms deserve to be laughed at. It certainly doesn't tell me they're somehow better than anyone else.

I just read some of those e-mails. The military recruiter seems like an uneducated twit. Furthermore they sound like some 15 year old idiot who dropped out of school and know nothing of life beyond their street.

You may consider military service below you, but it's a fact that better men and women than you protect you and your right to hold these vile opinions.

Oh yeah, I keep forgetting that killing Iraqis is "protecting my right to hold my opinion."

I guess I keep forgetting it because it ISNT TRUE.

You are a LIAR or you are just plain IGNORANT. Accept it, and move on.

As much as I'm repulsed by her comments, I'm really uncomfortable of the idea of prosecuting people just because they say something we don't like. The only exception to that is if that person was inciting/threatening violence, which the army recruiter wasn't doing.

Hatespeech is not protected speech. She follows the UCMJ which is alot stricter when it comes to conduct. She made these comments as a representative of the US Army. Conduct Unbecoming. End of story. She should not be allowed to continue to disgrace the uniform.

Well, she's going to have a very intimate education on the UCMJ very soon.

Ever heard of al-Qaida?

I'm reasonably sure that Dobbsworld is not in any danger from Al Qaeda.

Well, she's going to have a very intimate education on the UCMJ very soon.

I can't remember. Aren't racist commets illegal under the UCMJ?

I can't remember. Aren't racist commets illegal under the UCMJ?

At the very least, "general". She can also get nailed w/ abuse of gov't property.

A quick list of what she could be charged w/:
890. 90. Assaulting or willfully disobeying superior commissioned officer.
892. 92. Failure to obey order or regulation.
898. 98. Noncompliance with procedural rules.
908. 108. Military property of United States--Loss, damage, destruction, or wrongful disposition.
917. 117. Provoking speeches or gestures.
934. 134. General Article.

does anyone not think that his first email to her was a bit antagonistic?

I agree that she acted very unprofessional, but all his correspondence seemed to me to be hostility-inviting.

does anyone not think that his first email to her was a bit antagonistic?

I agree that she acted very unprofessional, but all his correspondence seemed to me to be hostility-inviting.

Agreed, but it doesn't matter. Had she done it as a private citizen, it might have been a different story. She did it, however, as a representative of the US military and using gov't property. It's a point of professionalism.

Well if this has already been discussed, referenced or been the topic of an earlier thread I haven't noticed, and I did try searching the forum a bit - but enough of all that, check this out:



http://www.shortnews.com/shownews.cfm?id=61342

there's screen captures of some of the emails here:

http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=1153

I'm really torn between shaking my head with my lower lip hanging open and laughing heartily while pointing at people wearing uniforms.

Thoughts?

This person's career in the Army is done for.

Hatespeech is not protected speech. She follows the UCMJ which is alot stricter when it comes to conduct. She made these comments as a representative of the US Army. Conduct Unbecoming. End of story. She should not be allowed to continue to disgrace the uniform.

Well said.

does anyone not think that his first email to her was a bit antagonistic?

I agree that she acted very unprofessional, but all his correspondence seemed to me to be hostility-inviting.Not only that, but publishing her full name and email address online is an infringement on her privacy.
(This is assuming that she had no part in publishing her email.)

In her capacity as a representative of the armed forces, I don't think she is entitled to the same degree of privacy as a private citizen.

In her capacity as a representative of the armed forces, I don't think she is entitled to the same degree of privacy as a private citizen.

Is she not a citizen?

Does she hold elected office?

To the public eye, she should be afforded as much privacy as any 'private' citizen.

Is she not a citizen?

Does she hold elected office?

To the public eye, she should be afforded as much privacy as any 'private' citizen.

How much privacy is that, again?

Look, I just think if she's not a terrorist, she has nothing to hide. :)

I was merely reminding him who it is that protects him.


From those big, bad, third-world dictators who couldn't harm anything within several hundred thousand miles of us.

How much privacy is that, again?

Look, I just think if she's not a terrorist, she has nothing to hide. :)

so the guy who took part in the emails is a terrorist?

How much privacy is that, again?

Look, I just think if she's not a terrorist, she has nothing to hide. :)

And neither do you. ;) (We hope.)

Well if this has already been discussed, referenced or been the topic of an earlier thread I haven't noticed, and I did try searching the forum a bit - but enough of all that, check this out:



http://www.shortnews.com/shownews.cfm?id=61342

there's screen captures of some of the emails here:

http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=1153

I'm really torn between shaking my head with my lower lip hanging open and laughing heartily while pointing at people wearing uniforms.

Thoughts?

It's funny, yet tragic.

this isnt much of a story. Recruiter needs harsh reprimand for so foolishly taking bait, Gay black man can go back to oingo boingo dancing.

this isnt much of a story. Recruiter needs harsh reprimand for so foolishly taking bait, Gay black man can go back to oingo boingo dancing.

You're like lighter fluid.

You're like lighter fluid.

flammable?

I agree with the idea that that woman should be demoted or flogged or wedgied or whatever the US military does when somebody shows improper conduct.

What I don't get is the anger against the US military as a whole, or any military anywhere. Might as well get mad at a hammer because somebody swung it at your nether parts. Me, I'll get mad at the person doing the swinging.

Snip diatribe.

Oh, boo-hoo.

My country suffered a military coup, US-backed too. 20 years of pain, torture and death. The same goes for most of the Latin America and Thailand nowadays. Military personnel are NOT better than anyone, and neither is the US.

Grow two things: Up and some balls.

You're like lighter fluid.

Do your rain dance and negate me.

I'm First Nations, Cree, yes.

That makes your sig so much funnier.

Well if this has already been discussed, referenced or been the topic of an earlier thread I haven't noticed, and I did try searching the forum a bit - but enough of all that, check this out:

http://www.shortnews.com/shownews.cfm?id=61342

there's screen captures of some of the emails here:

http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=1153

I'm really torn between shaking my head with my lower lip hanging open and laughing heartily while pointing at people wearing uniforms.

Thoughts?
Who cares they're just Americans.

That makes your sig so much funnier.

Exactly!

I'm really upset that a native woman would say such horrible things. Two-spirited people are respected in our cultures.
Not all native Americans can be expected to speak in unison.

She's internalised some pretty non-traditional views.
Haven't you?

Unless you don't live in America, then I don't give a shit about what you think of our military.

That would be OK if the US had a non-interventionist military. But you don't, which gives all of us the right to speak about it.

I also agree that writing them is a very stupid thing to do, although this technically does fall under freedom of speech, so I see no legal basis on which to prosecute the army recruiter.

Freedom of speech famously does not apply to US military personnel.


2. On the contrary, I think that military service is the highest form of patriotism, not dissent as the Left claims.
Surely to be a nurse, doctor, etc is a better thing? Soldiers serve a function but I don't see how it's any better than the above. I don't see why people get so emotional about the military and place it above all other government departments.

Well, it tells me that people wearing uniforms deserve to be laughed at.
That's not logical. It would be equally true to say that it "tells you" that native Americans deserve to be laughed at.

Not all native Americans can be expected to speak in unison. No shit, sherlock...but this is a pretty fundamental commonality among us.


Haven't you? I haven't internalised a non-traditional hatred of homosexuals, no, sorry.

She's the one who brought up her roots, then demonstrated her rejection of those roots.

Whatever happened to the idea that Rights were alienable? In my opinion this increasingly prevalent view that the Rights of the American citizenry comes exclusively from the work of the US Military is, frankly, scary.

That woman could not have been more idiotic. I have seen better arguments come from a five year old.

Meh, it's just unprofessional

Whatever happened to the idea that Rights were alienable? In my opinion this increasingly prevalent view that the Rights of the American citizenry comes exclusively from the work of the US Military is, frankly, scary.

Especially because the Military that grows into this kind of view starts to believe it can take those rights away. QED Brazil in 1964 and Thailand in 2006. And a military dictatorship expansionist, imperialist superpower is the kind of thing that resulted in world wars.

In any other circumstance, the woman would have had the right to be the major stupidhead she is, but as a recruiter she was officially representing the US military, and that is why this is wrong.

What I find most disturbing is the tendency of military hardliners asking for us to not use the freedoms they claim to have fought for.

Question: I did volunteer work in an orphanage for several years. Is this not also fighting for someone's rights?

Having read the whole conversation, I have to say she was in the wrong 100%. She sent him a professional letter, to which he responded with polite inquiry (though he was a bit sarcastic with the whole '2007' thing). Then she lost her professional attitude. That was her big fault. She started TYPING IN ALL CAPS and sending insults. She was completely iin the wrong.

this increasingly prevalent view that the Rights of the American citizenry comes exclusively from the work of the US Military is, frankly, scary.

It is, isn't it? It's terrifying.

I did volunteer work in an orphanage for several years. Is this not also fighting for someone's rights?

Well, in my opinion, yes - but my guess is that if the volunteer work didn't involve precision marching, polishing boots or learning the most effective ways to kill people, you won't manage to persuade the more rabidly-militaristic element here on the fora to that effect.

Implying, of course, that every person who is in the military shares these opinions.

Did anyone say this? Altho being that gays are not allowed to serve openly, a bit of a conclusion can be drawn about institutional attitudes, but I don't see anyone saying that every single person who serves is a homophobe.

You may consider military service below you, but it's a fact that better men and women than you protect you and your right to hold these vile opinions. Unless you don't live in America, then I don't give a shit about what you think of our military.

Gee, thanks. I didn't join the military because I'm not particularly interested in shooting strangers. Well, that and I don't take orders well. And I have a bad ankle. And migraines. And given that both my grandfathers and my great-uncle served proudly and honorably, I resent being told that I consider military service beneath me.

Accept it, and move on.

Given that our military is stretched dangerously thin, does it make any sense to toss perfectly good servicemen and women out on their arses simply because they prefer to have sex with their own gender? I understand the arguments about unit cohesion, etc, but they lose steam when you consider that the exact same words and phrases were used against racially integrated units. I don't see any reason to simply accept legalized discrimination against anyone.

Whatever happened to the idea that Rights were alienable? In my opinion this increasingly prevalent view that the Rights of the American citizenry comes exclusively from the work of the US Military is, frankly, scary.

Quite. Combine that with the argument JuNii was making the other day about the Constitution not being law and you have a recipe for horror.

Well, in my opinion, yes - but my guess is that if the volunteer work didn't involve precision marching, polishing boots or learning the most effective ways to kill people, you won't manage to persuade the more rabidly-militaristic element here on the fora to that effect.

Could be a child-soldier training camp orphanage.

Could be a child-soldier training camp orphanage.

Killing two birds with one stone, eh? Genius. Sheer genius.

Quite. Combine that with the argument JuNii was making the other day about the Constitution not being law and you have a recipe for horror.

:p yeah, that was a stupid and retarded argument...

that idiot should be shot!












waitaminute.... :D