NationStates Jolt Archive

Well, apparently in Germany, abortion is illegal (although they won't prosecute if it's in the first trimester, and it's a Tuesday afternoon), so what happens to the babies?

Well, the women end up killing them after they're born. Or, sometimes they dump them in the trash.

The government is loathe to accept "baby drops" at hospitals where women can drop the baby off anonymously (evidently, an anonymous handoff is illegal as well). But, they may have to accept it, since otherwise the poor kid dies.

The drops:
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,718631,00.html

Abortion law in Germany:
http://www.germany.info/relaunch/info/facts/facts/questions_en/health/healthissues3.html

That last part sounds strange - it's illegal, but you can do it under certain circumstances we'll lay out, and we won't prosecute.

Why not just make it legal?

Why not just make it legal?

Idiocy.

It's illegal in Germany because it's unconstitutional, which is more difficult to overturn than just legalisation via ordinary legislation. I can't confirm this, but I think also constitutional amendments in Germany can't contradict their bill of rights, so there might be something there, too.

Yep, I think that's right, according to article 79 (3) of the Grundgesetz.

Why not just make it legal?

International treaties and influence of Christianity on the government.

International treaties and influence of Christianity on the government.

I thought we were talking about a European country here...

http://i14.tinypic.com/2ai34wi.jpg

No wire hangers!!!!!

Why not just make it legal?Not a good argument. Just because something happens doesn't necessarily mean it should be legal. Murder is a good example.

I do however support abortion, right up into the third tirmester. I can't understand why someone could be pregnant for 8-9 months and then want an abortion at such a late stage, but I believe it is their right.

I thought we were talking about a European country here...

I seem to recall a long history of Christianity influencing European countries. Less so international treaties, granted, but those too.

I seem to recall a long history of Christianity influencing European countries. Less so international treaties, granted, but those too.

I seem to recall Europe being touted as the premier bastion of enlightenment and secularism...

Abortion issue aside. They most definately need to make the hospital drops legal. It's just good sense and it will prevent some baby from starving to death in a dumpster.

I seem to recall Europe being touted as the premier bastion of enlightenment and secularism...

By whom ? Quite a few European nations have monarchs with positions in a Christian church and several Christian political parties in the government.

Not a good argument. Just because something happens doesn't necessarily mean it should be legal. Murder is a good example.

yeah, but murder gets prosecuted. they don't prosecute it in germany, as long as it happens under certain circumstances. so the OP was asking why they don't make it fully legal.

I seem to recall Europe being touted as the premier bastion of enlightenment and secularism...

it is, but nobody's perfect. it does surprise me though that it's still illegal in Germany (although there are probably more nations in europe where it's still illegal i guess).

I seem to recall Europe being touted as the premier bastion of enlightenment and secularism...

I seem to recall that being bullshit, and you not believing it any more than I do.

I seem to recall Europe being touted as the premier bastion of enlightenment and secularism...

No no no, that's usually only the American conservatives that make that claim so they can rant about evil Europe. When most talk about that, they're really only referring to a couple countries, such as the Netherlands or Belgium, and even there its a stretch. Hell, Sweden had an official church until not too long ago, as Fass will undoubtably tell you all about in his amusing fashion.

As for this...make the damned baby drops legal, so you can at least have the kids available for adoption. For fuck's sake, if you're going to be so stupid as to ban abortion, at least figure out some way of taking care of unwanted kids or else you're just sickening.

By whom ? Quite a few European nations have monarchs with positions in a Christian church and several Christian political parties in the government.

Eve hears what he wants to.

And when he doesn't hear it, he makes it up.

Has he pulled out the 'oh, lots of NSers support blowing up children' line yet, despite the dismal failure of his thread to elicit those sorts of comments?

Eve hears what he wants to.

And when he doesn't hear it, he makes it up.

Has he pulled out the 'oh, lots of NSers support blowing up children' line yet, despite the dismal failure of his thread to elicit those sorts of comments?

And in how many threads do we hear "The EU is so much more civilized and enlightened than the US"?

No no no, that's usually only the American conservatives that make that claim so they can rant about evil Europe. When most talk about that, they're really only referring to a couple countries, such as the Netherlands or Belgium, and even there its a stretch.

Indeed. The current coalition government of the Netherlands consists of the Christian Democratic Appeal, the Christian Union and the Labour Party.

I see some religious influences.

Eve hears what he wants to.

And when he doesn't hear it, he makes it up.

Has he pulled out the 'oh, lots of NSers support blowing up children' line yet, despite the dismal failure of his thread to elicit those sorts of comments?

Ummm yeah... http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12476603&postcount=281

And in how many threads do we hear "The EU is so much more civilized and enlightened than the US"?

Do you mean, aside from you saying it, in a EU bashing thread?

Do you mean, aside from you saying it, in a EU bashing thread?

Yes. Why don't you ask Fassingen which is the more enlightened, the EU or the US?

In fact, why don't we ask you?

And in how many threads do we hear "The EU is so much more civilized and enlightened than the US"?

Well.. admittedly there is Christian and then there is Christian. The way Christianity is implemented somewhat differs between the USA and Europe.

But the influence is definitely there.

Ummm yeah... http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12476603&postcount=281
So you haven't attempted to say that any of us here support blowing up children?

Could this be a sign of progress, even though you can't seem to actually answer the question or stay on topic?

Yes. Why don't you ask Fassingen which is the more enlightened, the EU or the US?

In fact, why don't we ask you?

Go ahead and ask me, I know squat about Europe.

That was my answer, if you missed it.

I seem to recall Europe being touted as the premier bastion of enlightenment and secularism...

Mostly by American middle-class social democrats, or democratic socialists, or whatever they call themselves. The kind who promised to move to Canada if Bush was re-elected, yet three years later we're detecting still no mass emigration across our northern border.

Go ahead and ask me, I know squat about Europe.

That was my answer, if you missed it.
Oh, I'm sure you have an opinion.

Oh, I'm sure you have an opinion.

Based on a total lack of experience with Europe, and having never been there?

Not much of one, which is why you've never seen me shooting my mouth off about it.

But nice try.

Why not just make it legal?

Same reason anyone anywhere is against making abortion legal - lack of character, lack of intellect, lack of compassion and lack of decency.

Based on a total lack of experience with Europe, and having never been there?

Not much of one, which is why you've never seen me shooting my mouth off about it.

But nice try.

Ever been to the US?

Yes. Why don't you ask Fassingen which is the more enlightened, the EU or the US?

In fact, why don't we ask you?

Fass is hardly the most unbiased individual.


As to the original question it seems to be pretty obvious. Stupidity still reigns supreme. Simply criminalizing or legalizing abortion would be too much to ask for to make things simple. Instead you have to have a slew of confusing laws so no one knows what is allowed and what isn't.

Same reason anyone anywhere is against making abortion legal - lack of character, lack of intellect, lack of compassion and lack of decency.
Come on, you cannot claim that it is more compassionate to be pro-choice; I think the opposite is true.

you cannot claim that it is more compassionate to be pro-choice

Of course it is.

It's more compassionate to permit women autonomy and more compassionate to prevent the suffering of children born in bad circumstances.

Come on, you cannot claim that it is more compassionate to be pro-choice; I think the opposite is true.

Giving a woman the right to decide what happens to her body is compassionate.

Ever been to the US?

*shudders* Every summer for six years. I've also grown up with US media, US influence, US products, and over the past four or five years, gotten to know quite a few USians. Living next to the US also means there is a lot more exposure.

Europe? I can find it on a map. I've studied some European history. I like Belgium waffles.

Awww, what's wrong? No fun now that you can't back up your accusation that I tout Europe as a bastion of this and that?

My goodness, it must sting even worse when you find yourself unable to quote me seriously bashing the US in any way.

Come on, you cannot claim that it is more compassionate to be pro-choice; I think the opposite is true.

That would depend on where your compassion is being directed.

yeah, but murder gets prosecuted. they don't prosecute it in germany, as long as it happens under certain circumstances. so the OP was asking why they don't make it fully legal.

It's probably because abandoning a child isn't something anyone wants to be legal. Much like similar laws in the US, this allows someone to break the law without fear of prosecution in order to prevent a much worse crime. But I don't think that making abandonment legal is the way to go.

Come on, you cannot claim that it is more compassionate to be pro-choice; I think the opposite is true.

It is a hundred times more compassionate!

A fetus, especially a first-trimester one, is nothing. It is not a human being capable of suffering.

Pro-choice is the compassionate position because:

1) it takes into account and tries to ease the suffering of the pregnant woman, who may not want her young life or her health wrecked by carrying a pregnancy.

2) it takes into account the less than stellar conditions which a person resulting from a fetus is likely to live in, and prevents it.

The pro-choice position puts human rights, compassion, and a genuine desire to ameliorate suffering above religion or chauvinism.

*shudders* Every summer for six years. I've also grown up with US media, US influence, US products, and over the past four or five years, gotten to know quite a few USians. Living next to the US also means there is a lot more exposure.

Europe? I can find it on a map. I've studied some European history. I like Belgium waffles.

Awww, what's wrong? No fun now that you can't back up your accusation that I tout Europe as a bastion of this and that?

My goodness, it must sting even worse when you find yourself unable to quote me seriously bashing the US in any way.

No, it doesn't sting. But Fassingen has a full library of how Europe is much better than the US...

It is a hundred times more compassionate!

The pro-choice position puts human rights, compassion, and a genuine desire to ameliorate suffering above religion or chauvinism.
You are entirely wrong, about me anyway. My pro-life views stem directly from my longtime commitment to human rights issues.

No, it doesn't sting. But Fassingen has a full library of how Europe is much better than the US...

Then let's call Fass the matter to your anti-matter. I'm not here to speak for Fass, I'm simply addressing the accusations you attempted to level at me.

You've thrown in the towel on that line of bs now, I presume?

Good.

Why not just make it legal?

It is de facto legal. Do you need for it to be written down?

You are entirely wrong, about me anyway. My pro-life views stem directly from my longtime commitment to human rights issues.

Obviously not the woman's.

It is de facto legal. Do you need for it to be written down?

De facto = Stupidly written.

Just come out and say it's legal.

No, de facto legal works just fine, and I'm sure you have the intellectual capacity to grasp the difference. It helps explain why something may be illegal in the books, but allowable in practice nonetheless.

It's something that needs to be rewritten, that's what it means to me.

De facto = Stupidly written.

Just come out and say it's legal.

No, de facto legal works just fine, and I'm sure you have the intellectual capacity to grasp the difference. It helps explain why something may be illegal in the books, but allowable in practice nonetheless.

You are entirely wrong, about me anyway. My pro-life views stem directly from my longtime commitment to human rights issues.

You mean the rights of human tissue. Pro-choice advocates are committed to protecting human persons.

Why not just go to France?

De facto = Stupidly written.
Not really, no. More... pragmatically written.

Just come out and say it's legal.
Why? What's the problem as it is today?
Why not just go to France?

Why would you? You won't get prosecuted if you do it in Germany, so...

Why would you? You won't get prosecuted if you do it in Germany, so...

To cut out the B.S. The article said the woman had to undergo counciling to talk her out of an abortion.

Hey, I'm confused. Are you guys talking about making abortion legal or making child abandonment legal?

Hey, I'm confused. Are you guys talking about making abortion legal or making child abandonment legal?

The two issues go hand in hand in a country where abortion is illegal.

The two issues go hand in hand in a country where abortion is illegal.

I don't see how. While the "baby drop" method described in the article isn't found in most of the US, similar laws exempting mothers from prosecution if they abandon a child at a hospital/firehouse/etc. are still prevalent. You may see a higher incidence of child abandonment in a country where abortion is illegal, but it is still a problem everywhere - and many have used the same strategies to try and prevent the death of infants.

Besides, the two issues are not necessarily a matter of the same argument. I absolutely think that Germany should legalize abortion. But I don't think any society should legalize child abandonment, even if protections are put into place in these types of situations.

It's something that needs to be rewritten, that's what it means to me.

I knew you were a smart cookie:)

I knew you were a smart cookie:)

Look at it this way.

We would need fewer lawyers, and less time in court, if laws read exactly as they were to be used.

Less confusion, especially about the intent of the law.

Saying, "IT IS ILLEGAL" and "but we won't prosecute" is both silly and open to confusion.

Shorten it to "IT IS LEGAL" is a lot easier to read.

I don't see how. While the "baby drop" method described in the article isn't found in most of the US, similar laws exempting mothers from prosecution if they abandon a child at a hospital/firehouse/etc. are still prevalent. You may see a higher incidence of child abandonment in a country where abortion is illegal, but it is still a problem everywhere - and many have used the same strategies to try and prevent the death of infants.

Besides, the two issues are not necessarily a matter of the same argument. I absolutely think that Germany should legalize abortion. But I don't think any society should legalize child abandonment, even if protections are put into place in these types of situations.

In a country where abortion is illegal, it is very important to enact laws to protect a woman that drops her new born off at the hospital. I think it is important to have laws to protect parents who wish to do this in any country. It's better than the alternative which is child neglect, abandoning a child in a dumpster, child abuse.

There was just a story in the Seattle Times about a 3 y/o who was severely neglected. The father said he never had any "parental instinct." He's an evil monster for not putting the poor child up for adoption, don't get me wrong. But maybe that child wouldn't have had to suffer if he could have just dropped the boy off at a fire station. I don't think there's going to be a rash of people dumping their children. It just gives them another option if they are unable or unwilling to take care of their child.

Look at it this way.

We would need fewer lawyers, and less time in court, if laws read exactly as they were to be used.

Less confusion, especially about the intent of the law.

Saying, "IT IS ILLEGAL" and "but we won't prosecute" is both silly and open to confusion.

Shorten it to "IT IS LEGAL" is a lot easier to read.

Hmmm, I think you need to wade through Llewdor's thread on the common law versus civil law. Less confusion about the intent of the law? Well, 'less' is relative perhaps, but anyway, won't sidetrack this thread too.

I knew you were a smart cookie:)

He'd be smarter if he didn't let his political bias cloud most of his opinions, but then we're all guilty of that to some extent.

Why not just make it legal?

You misunderstand something : It's illegal, but not punishable.

Germany, too, has it's fair share of idiots, and when the issue was last up for discussion in the early 90s, the Bundesgerichtshof came up with this legal compromise.
Abortions are widely available all over Germany without problem, the only legal requirement is a short consultation that will make you aware of alternative options.

In a country where abortion is illegal, it is very important to enact laws to protect a woman that drops her new born off at the hospital. I think it is important to have laws to protect parents who wish to do this in any country. It's better than the alternative which is child neglect, abandoning a child in a dumpster, child abuse.

(bold mine) Precisely.

There was just a story in the Seattle Times about a 3 y/o who was severely neglected. The father said he never had any "parental instinct." He's an evil monster for not putting the poor child up for adoption, don't get me wrong. But maybe that child wouldn't have had to suffer if he could have just dropped the boy off at a fire station. I don't think there's going to be a rash of people dumping their children. It just gives them another option if they are unable or unwilling to take care of their child.

He most likely could have done so without being prosecuted. There are similar laws in most US states.

He most likely could have done so without being prosecuted. There are similar laws in most US states.

It really depends on the state, I'm not sure of Washington's laws. I know some states have gone so far as to advertise the option.

To cut out the B.S. The article said the woman had to undergo counciling to talk her out of an abortion.
It's a compromise. It was a choice between this and completely illegal. As I said: They were pragmatical.

And the counselling would probably be demanded if it was legal as well.
We would need fewer lawyers, and less time in court, if laws read exactly as they were to be used.
Heh. The world would be more black and white and, let's face it - more unjust as well. No room for interpretation isn't always a good thing, and makes for unflexible laws that quickly become antiquated.

Shorten it to "IT IS LEGAL" is a lot easier to read.
Shorten it to "It's legal" and it would be illegal.

This stuff actually helps the pro-lifer's cause, since there was what, 6 cases of babies being dropped off?

It'd be a hell of a lot better than millions of abortions a year.

I thought we were talking about a European country here...

Wait a minute...you're pro choice?