NationStates Jolt Archive


France has the right idea!

NERVUN
27-03-2007, 08:40
French scientists rebut U.S., Muslim creationism
By Tom Heneghan, Religion Editor
Mon Mar 26, 10:20 AM ET

With creationism now coming in Christian and Muslim versions, scientists, teachers and theologians in France are debating ways to counteract what they see as growing religious attacks on science.

Bible-based criticism of evolution, once limited to Protestant fundamentalists in the United States, has become an issue in France now that Pope Benedict and some leading Catholic theologians have criticized the neo-Darwinist view of creation.

An Islamist publisher in Turkey mass-mailed a lavishly illustrated Muslim creationist book to schools across France recently, prompting the Education Ministry to proscribe the volume and question the way the story of life is taught here.

The Bible and the Koran say God directly created the world and everything in it. In Christianity, fundamentalists believe this literally but the largest denomination, Catholicism, and most mainline Protestant churches read it more symbolically.

This literalism led Christian fundamentalists to reject the theory of evolution elaborated in the 19th century by Charles Darwin, the foundation stone of modern biology. Muslim scholars also dispute evolution but have not made this a major issue.

"There is a growing distrust of science in public opinion, especially among the young, and that worries us," said Philippe Deterre, a research biologist and Catholic priest who organized a colloquium on creationism for scientists at the weekend.

"There are many issues that go beyond strictly scientific or strictly theological explanations," he said at the colloquium in this university town southwest of Paris. Deterre's Blaise Pascal Network promotes understanding between science and religion.

Barred from teaching creationism in U.S. public schools, some conservative Christians now advocate the "intelligent design" argument that some forms of life are too complex to have simply evolved. Scientists call this creationism in disguise.

These American concerns caught notice in Europe after Vienna Cardinal Christoph Schoenborn, a confidant of Pope Benedict, attacked neo-Darwinist theories in 2005 in what seemed to be a move to ally the Catholic Church with "intelligent design."

GROWING ISSUES IN FRANCE

These theoretical debates became a pressing issue in France last month when schools unexpectedly received free copies of an "Atlas of Creation" by Turkish Islamist Harun Yahya that blames Darwinism for everything from terrorism to Nazism.

Herve Le Guyader, a University of Paris biology professor who advised the Education Ministry on the Atlas, said high school biology teachers needed more training now to respond to the increasingly open challenges to the theory of evolution.

"It's often taught in a simplistic way," he said. "We have to give them the philosophical arguments they need to respond."

Paleontologist Marc Godinot said creationists and their critics drew overblown conclusions from a theory that explains how life developed but not how it was created. The ultimate origin of life is not a question science can answer, he said.

Creationists reject evolution because some scientists say the role of chance in it proves that life has no final meaning.

"We have to decode this, but that's a job for philosophers and theologians," Godinot said . "Creation is actually a big mystery."

Jacques Arnould, a Catholic priest who works at France's National Center for Space Research, said Christians in Europe should not look down with bemusement at creationists abroad.

"They are believers, as we are," the Dominican theologian told the meeting of about 100, mostly Catholic scientists with a few Muslims as well. "There are Christian, Muslim and Jewish approaches that we have to respect."

Arnould said the question of life's purpose arose naturally in biology class but science could not answer it. Instead of offering simple creationism, he said, theologians should develop views that respect modern science and faith in a divine purpose.

He said Catholic thinkers should update "natural theology," the teachings of Saint Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) that married philosophy and science in a view that dominated European thought until the 18th-century Enlightenment divorced the two fields.

"Natural theology was based on the knowledge of the time," said Arnould. "That knowledge keeps changing, so natural theology has to change too."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/france_creationism_dc

ID/Creationism needs to be taken seriously and confronted. Moreso though, the current distrust of science and the opinion of many that science is only for nerds, geeks, eggheads, and other undesireables needs to be addressed. It's good to see that one nation is leading the way in this.
That said, given NSG, I predict that this thread will quickly de-evolve into a classic creationism vs evolution debate punchuated with a number of French bashing jokes from those who just saw the word 'France' in the tread title.
Cabra West
27-03-2007, 10:45
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/france_creationism_dc

ID/Creationism needs to be taken seriously and confronted. Moreso though, the current distrust of science and the opinion of many that science is only for nerds, geeks, eggheads, and other undesireables needs to be addressed. It's good to see that one nation is leading the way in this.
That said, given NSG, I predict that this thread will quickly de-evolve into a classic creationism vs evolution debate punchuated with a number of French bashing jokes from those who just saw the word 'France' in the tread title.

I remember we addressed it in RE class. Well, mostly the teacher tried to address it... we had a good laugh.
German Nightmare
27-03-2007, 11:49
Good for France, hopefully others will follow their example!

I remember that when I was 10 my 4th grade natural sciences (Naturkunde) teacher gave the class a lecture on how the world came to be within 7 days.

And she told me I'd end up in hell because I didn't believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible, especially of the creation. :rolleyes:

Pissed me off more than it scared me, for she told me that dinosaurs weren't real. Bitch.
Compulsive Depression
27-03-2007, 11:54
Pissed me off more than it scared me, for she told me that dinosaurs weren't real. Bitch.

Ooh, a plan! Rebuild the dinosaurs, Jurassic Park stylee, and get them to eat all the fundies!

One prehistoric animal preying on another ¬_¬
Pure Metal
27-03-2007, 12:06
go France!

religion = R.E. & philosophy classes
science = science classes
and keep it that way.
Ultraviolent Radiation
27-03-2007, 12:11
go France!

religion = R.E. & philosophy classes
science = science classes
and keep it that way.

As long as R.E. is teaching about religion, not teaching its doctrines as truth.
Cameroi
27-03-2007, 12:14
france has many good and right ideas about a great many things.

the current absurd and vestedly biased opinion that nerds, geeks, eggheads, and others are somehow undesireable needs to be taken seriously and confronted.

as well as so called intelligent design. examples of UNintelligent design exist in many aspects of the internal design of nearly all species including our own.

far more compelling even then that, in the opinions of a majority of beings of cameroi, is that such massive, all but limitless diversity in living organisms of all kinds, as can be found even amongst those on any one single world that supports life, argues, if anything, against their having had a single designer.

=^^=
.../\...
Aelosia
27-03-2007, 12:38
Did I had the only conscious catholic teachers in the world?

They teached me everything, and remarked that creationism was only associated to faith, and the evolution theory was more proven by science, also giving us the choice about what to believe, without hell warnings or infidel threats.

And it was a nun school...Run by nuns.

I suppose it is as cultural as it is religious?
Pure Metal
27-03-2007, 12:40
As long as R.E. is teaching about religion, not teaching its doctrines as truth.

very true.

plus, R.E =/= bible studies. should be about other religions too *nods*
Bottle
27-03-2007, 12:42
Creation myths belong in social studies or history or comparative religions classes. As long as that is where they stay, I've got absolutely no problem with it.
Non Aligned States
27-03-2007, 12:42
the current absurd and vestedly biased opinion that nerds, geeks, eggheads, and others are somehow undesireable needs to be taken seriously and confronted.

Quite easily. A mass media approach that shows where all the 'hip', jocks and the typical crowd of anti-science people ending up as they really do. As low end blue collar types like road sweepers. Scar them young, and they'll grow up smart.


examples of UNintelligent design exist in many aspects of the internal design of nearly all species including our own.

Who else would put a recreational facility in a toxic waste pipeline after all?
Northern Borders
27-03-2007, 12:55
Shit. Here in Brazil highschoolers learn that life was created after the assembling of amino-acids and proteins. No one is exactly sure how, but its a process that is explained.

They even learn about Oparin´s experiments.
The Nazz
27-03-2007, 12:58
Creation myths belong in social studies or history or comparative religions classes. As long as that is where they stay, I've got absolutely no problem with it.

And as long as they're taught as myths, the classes can be quite helpful. I've discovered that nothing quite shakes my students up more than looking at poetry that's thousands of years old and that deals with stories they previously thought were exclusively Biblical. There's an "oh shit! we're not the only ones with a flood story?" moment that's just precious.
Impedance
27-03-2007, 14:42
Believe it or not, speaking as a scientist, I am actually in favour of teaching Intelligent Design / Creationism / whatever they want to call it. Trying to stop "the religious" from teaching these subjects in schools could constitute an attack on religion, which doesn't really do anyone any favours. Scientists have enough enemies in the world as it is - we don't need any more animosity from religious groups, thankyou very much.

But there is a very important caveat to be made here. Teach Intelligent Design as a separate subject by all means, but DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES teach it in science lessons, or instead of science lessons. Why? Because while creationism or ID are subjects in their own right, they are NOT SCIENCE.

The important difference is that while science relies constantly on logic, observation and most importantly experimentation to form theories, creationism does not. Intelligent Design might look like science from some angles, but it isn't, because whenever proof is required for a theory, the mystical workings of supreme beings are invoked, rather than actual experimentation. It's a bit like Alchemy in that respect. It does make it quite an interesting subject to teach and / or to learn about, but the most important point remains: It is NOT SCIENCE, and should not be treated as if it were.

Yes, yes, I know, evolution hasn't been "proven" either - it's still just a theory. Well, I have news for all of you: Most "facts" about the world we live in are still just theories too. Scientists still rely on them and use them every day, because they haven't been proven wrong yet. That's how science progresses - by making theories (based on observation and experiments) and then constantly testing them in every possible way to try and find flaws. If flaws are discovered, the theory is changed, or sometimes thrown out altogether.

Now evolution as an entire theory hasn't been completely proved, neither has it been disproved. But the most important aspect of it, natural selection (survival of the fittest) has been proved many times over, by (unwitting) experimentation. Just consider the rise of antibiotic-resistant bacteria - that's a perfect example of natural selection in action.