NationStates Jolt Archive

Should it be illegal to say 'under God' in the United States' Pledge of Alligence:confused:

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Towed to General.

Should it be illegal? No.

Should it be there? No.

Should it be illegal? No.

Should it be there? No.

Exactly.

dude who cares

Who cares, really.

If you want to say it, say it. If not, don't. *shrug*

Well as someone who had to pledge that every bloody day at school I'd be happy to get rid of it.

Its brainwashing bollocks. Artificial construct of patriotism with a dose of nationalism and religion.

Should it be illegal? No.

Should it be there? No.

actually it should be illegal.

Well when America was founded those were the principles of the time and I don't belive we should change it.

Frankly though I don't really care...

If you want to say it, say it. If not, don't. *shrug*

I agree with Morganatron here.

how’s about you get rid of the pledge of allegiance like the rest of the world has (though there’s bound to be some exceptions)

Well when America was founded those were the principles of the time and I don't belive we should change it.

Frankly though I don't really care...

It was not even written in the original. It was added in the 1950s by Congress.

Well as someone who had to pledge that every bloody day at school I'd be happy to get rid of it.

Its brainwashing bollocks. Artificial construct of patriotism with a dose of nationalism and religion.

Even though God could mean anything in reality.

Come on, there are many far more important problems in the US than whether or not your Pledge of Allegiance mentions some made up dude in it.

Even though God could mean anything in reality.

as can religion ;)

It was not even written in the original. It was added in the 1950s by Congress.

Why was it added?

Come on, there are many far more important problems in the US than whether or not your Pledge of Allegiance mentions some made up dude in it.

Of course there are. There's gay people getting married in Taxsachussetts!!!!!

actually it should be illegal.Oh?

Well when America was founded those were the principles of the time and I don't belive we should change it.

Frankly though I don't really care...

I was unaware america was founded in 1954.

But then again, if we want to look on the principles america was founded on, we should look to the legal documents that founded it, shouldn't we? Surely if God was a principle the US was founded on, God would be mentioned.

*reads*

Well damn....

It was not even written in the original. It was added in the 1950s by Congress.

The Founders would have frowned upon it anyway- it's violating freedom of religion. Though atheists don't really have a religion.

To be honest, I don't think everyone should be practically forced to say the pledge. In elementary and early years of middle school, you're forced o or you get sent to the office, then later on you just do it to keep people off your back. I've got nothing against saying the Pledge (except that we're swearing loyalty to a nation "Under God") but come on....

Oh?

yes. Tune in next time for our next episode of "simple questions to simple answers"

How often do you even have to say it anyway?

Why was it added?

Macarthy...!

Come on, there are many far more important problems in the US than whether or not your Pledge of Allegiance mentions some made up dude in it.

That's why I'm an atheist. I see no evidence to support a God and I believe there are more important things to worry about that some deity who watches you everywhere like a pedo. Besides, most religions revolve around some sort of ancient myth, which would be impossible to actually happen.

Why was it added?

To distinguish us from teh ebil commies!!111

yes. Tune in next time for our next episode of "simple questions to simple answers"...

Why should saying it be illegal?

...

Why should saying it be illegal?

Separation of Church and State though people are NOT OBLIGATED to even say the pledge.

Should it be illegal to say 'under God' in the United States' Pledge of Alligence:confused:

no, but neither should it be Illegal NOT to say Under God in the United States Pledge of Alligence.

Separation of Church and State though people are NOT OBLIGATED to even say the pledge.Indeed.

But surely a person should be able to say if it they want to... ?

The Founders would have frowned upon it anyway- it's violating freedom of religion. Though atheists don't really have a religion.

To be honest, I don't think everyone should be practically forced to say the pledge. In elementary and early years of middle school, you're forced o or you get sent to the office, then later on you just do it to keep people off your back. I've got nothing against saying the Pledge (except that we're swearing loyalty to a nation "Under God") but come on....

In our school, we were never required to say the pledge, but we were required to stand. I never repeated the pledge, the reason being I said it once, I didn't need to reaffirm my fidelity to my nation every freakin' morning. And especially not when 1st period was gym. :p

Separation of Church and State though people are NOT OBLIGATED to even say the pledge.

If you were going with seperation of church and state then it should be illegal for the state to force people to say "under god", but it wouldn't be illegal for people to say it if they decide to add it in.

Arthrais said it should be illegal to say it full stop.

...

Why should saying it be illegal?

saying it should not be. Having it there under law is.

saying it should not be. Having it there under law is.K. I was hoping that's what you meant.

Indeed.

But surely a person should be able to say if it they want to... ?

I agree entirely just like I agree with the fact that people do not have to say it if they do not want to.

Arthrais said it should be illegal to say it full stop.

Arthais. My fault for not reading the OP carefully enough. of course you can say it. anybody can say it. It should be illegal to have it there under law.

I agree entirely just like I agree with the fact that people do not have to say it if they do not want to.Oh, most certainly.

Arthais. My fault for not reading the OP carefully enough. of course you can say it. anybody can say it. It should be illegal to have it there under law.

Hmm, apologies for the rogue "r"...

Should it be illegal to say 'under God' in the United States' Pledge of Alligence:confused:

If you just don't think about it, does it really matter?

I had to say it in elementary school everyday, but they didn't even play it at my high school. At my new school they make me stand up for it every single morning. Why? I hate standing up during prime sitting time. :(

I'd like to see it taken out. I'd also like it changed to pledging to the Constitution instead of the flag.

Of course I'd also like a good pizza right now and it would seem that I'll get none of the above. :(Makes more sense. I like.

I'd like to see it taken out. I'd also like it changed to pledging to the Constitution instead of the flag.

Of course I'd also like a good pizza right now and it would seem that I'll get none of the above. :(

Adding the words "under God" nullified the following "indivisible".

I'd like to see it taken out. I'd also like it changed to pledging to the Constitution instead of the flag.

Of course I'd also like a good pizza right now and it would seem that I'll get none of the above. :(

I'd much prefer pledging to the Constitution as well.

Well when America was founded those were the principles of the time and I don't belive we should change it.

Frankly though I don't really care...

I'll probably be beaten but most of the American Founding Fathers were agnostic, or Diests and believe not in the Christian God, but in a more general 'God'.

Jefferson actually made a version of the Bible without any miracles in it.

The Pledge of Allegiance is completely optional, and that as long as you don't be a huge jerk and make an issue out of it, it is fine. They are just words.

Words don't hurt anyone. Just stand up, and stay respectfully silent. This country doesn't need millions of sleepy, antsy children blindly declaring their patriotism. Nor does this country need millions of people scoffing at it to be jerks and show off how 'cool' they are.

If anyone doesn't want to say it, and people get angry at you, especially state employees, threaten to sue. It is a blatant violation of your civil rights. It is an optional activity. I hate people who make mindless lawsuits, but any intelligent American should be able to tell you, as long as you don't disrupt others, a violation of their civil right to say the Pledge, it is ok to stay silent.

If you were going with seperation of church and state then it should be illegal for the state to force people to say "under god",

You'd have a point if people are forced to say it but they are not.

I had to say it in elementary school everyday, but they didn't even play it at my high school. At my new school they make me stand up for it every single morning. Why? I hate standing up during prime sitting time. :(Boy, I sure am glad I was homeschooled my entire life, because knowing me and how I was raised I wouldn't have put up with that bullshit. Hell, when I was in preschool(!) they made me sing it. Yes, gave me no choice, and forced me to sing it. I wasn't even 4 years old but I was NOT happy, and I even got reprimanded for it and my mom was told I "misbehaved" ... man, she got pissed at them for that.

:D

You'd have a point if people are forced to say it but they are not.

forced is irrelevant to the issue.

Boy, I sure am glad I was homeschooled my entire life, because knowing me and how I was raised I wouldn't have put up with that bullshit. Hell, when I was in preschool(!) they made me sing it. Yes, gave me no choice, and forced me to sing it. I wasn't even 4 years old but I was NOT happy, and I even got reprimanded for it and my mom was told I "misbehaved" ... man, she got pissed at them for that.

:D

Good. Anyone who infringes on children's civil rights to say and do what they believe is right, is not a proper American. Your mom is a true American.

In America.





America.

I'll probably be beaten but most of the American Founding Fathers were agnostic, or Diests and believe not in the Christian God, but in a more general 'God'.

Jefferson actually made a version of the Bible without any miracles in it.

The Pledge of Allegiance is completely optional, and that as long as you don't be a huge jerk and make an issue out of it, it is fine. They are just words.

Words don't hurt anyone. Just stand up, and stay respectfully silent. This country doesn't need millions of sleepy, antsy children blindly declaring their patriotism. Nor does this country need millions of people scoffing at it to be jerks and show off how 'cool' they are.

If anyone doesn't want to say it, and people get angry at you, especially state employees, threaten to sue. It is a blatant violation of your civil rights. It is an optional activity. I hate people who make mindless lawsuits, but any intelligent American should be able to tell you, as long as you don't disrupt others, a violation of their civil right to say the Pledge, it is ok to stay silent.
Why should I stand?

I can't believe I remember it 16 years later, but it's still fresh in my mind because I remember sitting there, and everyones singing and I'm not, and the teacher goes "stop," and says:

"Stephen! Sing, you have to sing with us."

"I don't want to."

"You have to sing with us."

"But I don't want to!"

"Stephen you have to."

Being only 3, I just opened my mouth with the words and they didn't notice I wasn't singing. Pwn3d.

I'd like to see it taken out. I'd also like it changed to pledging to the Constitution instead of the flag.

I'd much prefer pledging to the Constitution as well.I wouldn't. Pledging to the flag that represents the Nation would include not only the Constitution but also the Bill of Rights, and all the ideals and changes this country underwent and all the ideals and changes that occur as the Nation grows and endures. to only pledge to the Constitution is to only say your pledge to a specific document (that was hanging over a radiator for years at one point) and not take into the account the Bill of Rights, and all other things not included in the Consitution.

You'd have a point if people are forced to say it but they are not.

Oh, you've misunderstood me. I wasn't saying they were.

IPledging to the flag that represents the Nation would include not only the Constitution but also the Bill of Rights .... to only pledge to the Constitution is to only say your pledge to a specific document (that was hanging over a radiator for years at one point) and not take into the account the Bill of Rights, and all other things not included in the Consitution.


Ummm.....but...the bill of rights...is part of the constitution...

Why should I stand?for the excercise! :rolleyes:

Being only 3, I just opened my mouth with the words and they didn't notice I wasn't singing. Pwn3d.
then you wern't forced to sing it since you DIDN'T sing it. :p

I wouldn't. Pledging to the flag that represents the Nation would include not only the Constitution but also the Bill of Rights, and all the ideals and changes this country underwent and all the ideals and changes that occur as the Nation grows and endures. to only pledge to the Constitution is to only say your pledge to a specific document (that was hanging over a radiator for years at one point) and not take into the account the Bill of Rights, and all other things not included in the Consitution.

I don't know what your Constitution looks like, but my copy has the first ten Amendments (the Bill of Rights) as well as all the later Amendments that are still in effect.

Ummm.....but...the bill of rights...is part of the constitution...

Technically it's a seperate document.

Also, does this mean everyone has to say a new pledge each and every time the Constitution and Bill of Rights are changed?

I wouldn't. Pledging to the flag that represents the Nation would include not only the Constitution but also the Bill of Rights, and all the ideals and changes this country underwent and all the ideals and changes that occur as the Nation grows and endures. to only pledge to the Constitution is to only say your pledge to a specific document (that was hanging over a radiator for years at one point) and not take into the account the Bill of Rights, and all other things not included in the Consitution.

The bill of rights is part of the constitution...hence the "amendment" thing

the flag is just a piece of cloth.

Personally, I vote for not pledging to anything. There is no need to waste time with idle words.

I don't know what your Constitution looks like, but my copy has the first ten Amendments (the Bill of Rights) as well as all the later Amendments that are still in effect.

but the Amendments change. so again, will you say a pledge for each and every time an amendment is changed?

Technically it's a seperate document.

Also, does this mean everyone has to say a new pledge each and every time the Constitution and Bill of Rights are changed?

Um, no, not it is not.

The bill of rights are the first ten amendments to the constitution.

amendments TO the constitution.

The bill of rights is not a seperate document, it is merely what a certain part of the constitution is refered to as.

To distinguish us from teh ebil commies!!111

You're probably right, seeing as how this was done in the Cold War.

but the Amendments change. so again, will you say a pledge for each and every time an amendment is changed?

so what? A pledge to the constitution would be a pledge to the constitution in force. What does the fact that amendments change matter? A pledge to the constitution would be pledging to the constitution as it is at the time you make the pledge.

I wouldn't. Pledging to the flag that represents the Nation would include not only the Constitution but also the Bill of Rights, and all the ideals and changes this country underwent and all the ideals and changes that occur as the Nation grows and endures. to only pledge to the Constitution is to only say your pledge to a specific document (that was hanging over a radiator for years at one point) and not take into the account the Bill of Rights, and all other things not included in the Consitution.
I wouldn't. The Constitution enshrines the laws of the land, the spirit of the land, and created the nation in the first place (Well, the one we know today as the United States of America). Besides, it should be noted that everyone from the President down to the newest recruit takes an oath to protect and defend the Constitution, not the flag.

I'd see a pledge like that to have far more meaning than to a flag whose meaning depends upon what's going on at the time.

the flag is just a piece of cloth.
if the flag is a "Piece of Cloth" the Constitution is a "piece of faded Parchment".

if the Constitution is more than a "piece of faded parchment" to you, then the flag is more than a "piece of cloth".

If you believe in the Constitution and what it stands for, then when you Pledge to the Flag and to the "Republic for which it stands" then you are also pledging to the Constitution and all it represents and all it will represent.

but the Amendments change. so again, will you say a pledge for each and every time an amendment is changed?

Think about it for a moment.

"I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America, and to the Republic which is bound to uphold it, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Hmm. Somehow, I don't see any need to change how I say the word "Constitution" every time it's amended.

hen you wern't forced to sing it since you DIDN'T sing it. :pOnly because they were too stupid to notice. I shouldn't have even had to pretend. I should have just been a 3 year old and zipped my mouth tight and looked the other way.

Think about it for a moment.

"I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America, and to the Republic which is bound to uphold it, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Hmm. Somehow, I don't see any need to change how I say the word "Constitution" every time it's amended.

You might, if you were wording it "I pledge allegiance to this particular version of the Constitution of the United States of America, and to the Republic which is bound to uphold it, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

but the Amendments change. so again, will you say a pledge for each and every time an amendment is changed?
Uh, JuNii, you DO know that the flag has changed far more times than the Constitution?

Think about it for a moment.

"I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America, and to the Republic which is bound to uphold it, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
I'd go with: "I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America, and to the Republic which it created, one people, out of many, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

but the Amendments change. so again, will you say a pledge for each and every time an amendment is changed?

The flag changes, too; there have been more versions of your flag than amendments to your constitution.

if the flag is a "Piece of Cloth" the Constitution is a "piece of faded Parchment".

if the Constitution is more than a "piece of faded parchment" to you, then the flag is more than a "piece of cloth".

Not at all, not even in the slightest.

The flag is a symbol. Nothing more. It is a symbol of something representative.

The constitution is not a symbol. it is not representative. It is a law. You can read it. The constitution is a law. The law has meaning.

The flag is merely symbolic, the constitution is not. The constitution is specific law

if the flag is a "Piece of Cloth" the Constitution is a "piece of faded Parchment".

if the Constitution is more than a "piece of faded parchment" to you, then the flag is more than a "piece of cloth".

If you believe in the Constitution and what it stands for, then when you Pledge to the Flag and to the "Republic for which it stands" then you are also pledging to the Constitution and all it represents and all it will represent.

there is a difference. One is a legal code. One is a piece of cloth. The constitution has legal meaning regardless of what material it is printed on, or even if it isn't present. It isn't representative of a law, it is the law.

The flag remains a piece of cloth.

I don't pledge to either or any. As I said, I see no need.

Well first of all most people in America believe there is some sort of God so y not just take2 secs and respect MY BELEF!!:headbang: y should i always comprimise for u WHY DONT PEOPLE COMPRIMISE FOR CHRISTIANS SOMETIMES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:headbang:

You might, if you were wording it "I pledge allegiance to this particular version of the Constitution of the United States of America, and to the Republic which is bound to uphold it, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Well since part of the constitution allows for amendments thereof, pledging to the constitution would imply pledging to the system through which the amendments are made- and by extension-any amendments that are made.

Well first of all most people in America believe there is some sort of God so y not just take2 secs and respect MY BELEF!!:headbang: y should i always comprimise for u WHY DONT PEOPLE COMPRIMISE FOR CHRISTIANS SOMETIMES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:headbang:

The gods of grammar and spelling are upset by this post.

also, the LAW says that there can be no state sponsored religion. You can pray all you want in church, at home, in the streets...your choice. The state, however, cannot sanction it. Persecution complexes are cute.

Well first of all most people in America believe there is some sort of God so y not just take2 secs and respect MY BELEF!!:headbang: y should i always comprimise for u WHY DONT PEOPLE COMPRIMISE FOR CHRISTIANS SOMETIMES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:headbang:

OK.

I think you should have used, at most, one exclamation mark at the end (although none would have been preferable), and no smileys.

You've clearly been thinking bigger; 28. With added smileys.

I propose a compromise on 2 exclamation marks at the end, and one smiley to be placed at your discretion within the post.


You're right, compromise can be fun!

The gods of grammar and spelling are upset by this post.

also, the LAW says that there can be no state sponsored religion. You can pray all you want in church, at home, in the streets...your choice. The state, however, cannot sanction it. Persecution complexes are cute.

Fuck them. The gods of exclamation points and proper smiley use are fucking pissed.

Well first of all most people in America believe there is some sort of God so y not just take2 secs and respect MY BELEF!!:headbang: y should i always comprimise for u WHY DONT PEOPLE COMPRIMISE FOR CHRISTIANS SOMETIMES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:headbang:

modest satire, but Johnathon Swift you aint

Fuck them. The gods of exclamation points and proper smiley use are fucking pissed.

4 gods pissed in one post. That is pretty impressive.

I suspect the lesser deities of rationality and sanity are also a bit irritated

4 gods pissed in one post. That is pretty impressive.

I suspect the lesser deities of rationality and sanity are also a bit irritated

Bah, rationality and sanity are overrated anyway.

4 gods pissed in one post. That is pretty impressive.

I suspect the lesser deities of rationality and sanity are also a bit irritated

Khorne is pissed, but he's always pissed.
Tzeentch respects changing methods of spelling
It looks kinda dirty so Nurgle is pleased.
Slaanesh is...um...busy at the moment

Serious points to anyone who understood that.

Well first of all most people in America believe there is some sort of God so y not just take2 secs and respect MY BELEF!!:headbang: y should i always comprimise for u WHY DONT PEOPLE COMPRIMISE FOR CHRISTIANS SOMETIMES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:headbang:
Oooooooooookay...

Moving on...

Khorne is pissed, but he's always pissed.
Tzeentch respects changing methods of spelling
It looks kinda dirty so Nurgle is pleased.
Slaanesh is...um...busy at the moment

Serious points to anyone who understood that.

And the Emperor can't be very happy either, but there isn't much he can do from way over there.

Word on the street is Khaine's considering intervening as well.

Khorne is pissed, but he's always pissed.
Tzeentch respects changing methods of spelling
It looks kinda dirty so Nurgle is pleased.
Slaanesh is...um...busy at the moment

Serious points to anyone who understood that.

Only because my cousin was a huge nerd.

I don't give a shit. Lewis black did an excellent comedic piece on it. The gist of it is that it doesn't matter if 'Under God' is in the Pledge or not, because the Pledge is said by elementary school students; and elementary school students... DON'T KNOW WHAT THE FUCK THEY'RE SAYING!!! :D

I'd go with: "I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America, and to the Republic which it created, one people, out of many, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

That sounds good as well.

I think we should get rid of the pledge altogether. Even countries like North Korea and Iran don't have BS like this. I have stopped saying it since 7th grade when I realized all the BS in it.

Besides, most religions revolve around some sort of ancient myth, which would be impossible to actually happen.

Well, duh! Unless, of course, said myths are actually caused by, you know, A GOD, then, you know, it probably could have happened. :p

The Founders would have frowned upon it anyway- it's violating freedom of religion. Though atheists don't really have a religion.

To be honest, I don't think everyone should be practically forced to say the pledge. In elementary and early years of middle school, you're forced o or you get sent to the office, then later on you just do it to keep people off your back. I've got nothing against saying the Pledge (except that we're swearing loyalty to a nation "Under God") but come on....

In high school you have to atleast stand for the pledge, so we're a step up from being forced to say it. The brainwashing begins in elementary school though, and I don't see its point in saying it today besides baseball games..:rolleyes:
It's nothing but controversy,so I think the entire thing in general is pointless to begin with,let alone with "Under God".

I think we should get rid of the pledge altogether. Even countries like North Korea and Iran don't have BS like this. I have stopped saying it since 7th grade when I realized all the BS in it.

Well, aren't you proud.

What's so wrong with pledging allegiance to your own country? I mean, I guess it'd be one thing if we still supported slavery or something, but come on...

Well, aren't you proud.

What's so wrong with pledging allegiance to your own country? I mean, I guess it'd be one thing if we still supported slavery or something, but come on...

No, instead we support stripping rights away from other citizens.

I won't pretend that I 100% support my nation, much less give that support to a piece of cloth. I assume Sel feels pretty similar. They are hollow words...I can say it all I want, that doesn't make it true. Even the largest sycophant doesn't 100% support their nation.

I found it!

It's in this segment of one of his routines. It's almost 3 minutes in, sorry. :p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8UJe9N1pE8

No, instead we support stripping rights away from other citizens.

Ooooh, you mean that Constitution-protected right to never never never never hear a word about God ever ever ever? Ah, thanks, almost forgot about that one. ;)

I won't pretend that I 100% support my nation, much less give that support to a piece of cloth. I assume Sel feels pretty similar. They are hollow words...I can say it all I want, that doesn't make it true. Even the largest sycophant doesn't 100% support their nation.

Ha. Wanna bet? :p

Ooooh, you mean that Constitution-protected right to never never never never hear a word about God ever ever ever? Ah, thanks, almost forgot about that one. ;)

No. I was going more for the stripping of marriage rights and adoption rights from gays, among others.

Although, we do have the right to never be forced to worship.

Ha. Wanna bet? :p
Actually, yes. I've never met someone who supports everything the nation does because sycophants tend to fixate on one aspect: the president is a big one, but they do sometimes choose others. When congress or supreme court go against it, they disagree with it, despite it still being the nation.

Separation of Church and State though people are NOT OBLIGATED to even say the pledge.

Depending on whether or not the state you live in has actually had it brought to court school children in your state may be required to stand and recite the pledge daily, and may be punished if they don't. In such states they are often punished if they leave out "under God" because they aren't "saying the pledge right".

Ooooh, you mean that Constitution-protected right to never never never never hear a word about God ever ever ever? Ah, thanks, almost forgot about that one. ;)

Fantastic strawman, want to say something that makes sense?

Ha. Wanna bet? :p

Congress passes a bill, president vetoes it. Someone out there supports both the bill and the veto?

Fantastic strawman, want to say something that makes sense?

Thanks, but it's not my fault you can't understand what I said. I understood it perfectly :)

Congress passes a bill, president vetoes it. Someone out there supports both the bill and the veto?

Ya never know, but I was kidding.

if the flag is a "Piece of Cloth" the Constitution is a "piece of faded Parchment".

The physical document that is the Constitution IS a piece of faded parchment. It is the words that are important, and the fact that we (supposedly) live by them.

In high school you have to atleast stand for the pledge, so we're a step up from being forced to say it. The brainwashing begins in elementary school though, and I don't see its point in saying it today besides baseball games..:rolleyes:
It's nothing but controversy,so I think the entire thing in general is pointless to begin with,let alone with "Under God".

No one stands for the pledge in my homeroom so it's not a universal thing

Thanks, but it's not my fault you can't understand what I said. I understood it perfectly :)

I understood what you said. It however makes no sense given the conversation. It's called context, look it up.

or, in other words, nobody said what you said they said, and your too cute by half attempt to make it look like that's what was being said was rather poor as those things go.

I don't give a shit. Lewis black did an excellent comedic piece on it. The gist of it is that it doesn't matter if 'Under God' is in the Pledge or not, because the Pledge is said by elementary school students; and elementary school students... DON'T KNOW WHAT THE FUCK THEY'RE SAYING!!! :D
No kidding. I mean, it's obvious where the writers of that Star Trek episode where they get in the middle of a fight between the Yangs and the Kohms got their idea for the sacred words--a second grade class reciting the pledge.

No one stands for the pledge in my homeroom so it's not a universal thing

At my school, you're supposed to stand, but you don't have to pledge.

And come to think of it, my government/politics teacher had an awesome idea: make everyone stand and recite the pledge, but if you can name the court case that said you don't have to, she won't make you. Win-win, I say.

And come to think of it, my government/politics teacher had an awesome idea: make everyone stand and recite the pledge, but if you can name the court case that said you don't have to, she won't make you. Win-win, I say.

No, wait, that's a horrible idea.

I wouldn't. The Constitution enshrines the laws of the land, the spirit of the land, and created the nation in the first place (Well, the one we know today as the United States of America). Besides, it should be noted that everyone from the President down to the newest recruit takes an oath to protect and defend the Constitution, not the flag.

I'd see a pledge like that to have far more meaning than to a flag whose meaning depends upon what's going on at the time.and so does the flag. it enshrines the laws, the spirit, and unified the people as that nation was being created. every reason you gave to support the constitution works for the flag which is the symbol of the nation and all it encompasses.

Not at all, not even in the slightest.

The flag is a symbol. Nothing more. It is a symbol of something representative.

The constitution is not a symbol. it is not representative. It is a law. You can read it. The constitution is a law. The law has meaning.

The flag is merely symbolic, the constitution is not. The constitution is specific lawthe Constitution is not LAW. the Constitution is the foundation of which this country is built upon. That also makes it a symbol.

The physical document that is the Constitution IS a piece of faded parchment. It is the words that are important, and the fact that we (supposedly) live by them.and the flag also encompasses those words and the spirt behind those words.

At my school, you're supposed to stand, but you don't have to pledge.

And come to think of it, my government/politics teacher had an awesome idea: make everyone stand and recite the pledge, but if you can name the court case that said you don't have to, she won't make you. Win-win, I say.

I should remember the name of the case, because it was the one I used as a child when I refused to say the pledge--the defendants were Jehovah's Witnesses, and that's what I was as a kid.

At my school, you're supposed to stand, but you don't have to pledge.

And come to think of it, my government/politics teacher had an awesome idea: make everyone stand and recite the pledge, but if you can name the court case that said you don't have to, she won't make you. Win-win, I say.
I wonder what would've happened if someone said "First Amendment. I have the freedom of speech... but I also have the freedom NOT to speak if I choose to."

and so does the flag. it enshrines the laws, the spirit, and unified the people as that nation was being created. every reason you gave to support the constitution works for the flag which is the symbol of the nation and all it encompasses.
Maybe for you. For me, it's a piece of cloth that gets invoked far too often and far too carelessly. It's given inordinate reverence.

the Constitution is not LAW.

Um...what?

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; ... shall be the supreme Law of the land

The constitution is most certainly law. It is, in fact, supreme law. do you know what "law" means?

Maybe for you. For me, it's a piece of cloth that gets invoked far too often and far too carelessly. It's given inordinate reverence.

Same thing can be said with the Consitution. it's how it's used. and for that, you cannot blame the object, but the people who invoke it for evey little thing.

I should remember the name of the case.

West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette

Same thing can be said with the Consitution. it's how it's used. and for that, you cannot blame the object, but the people who invoke it for evey little thing.

the difference being the constitution is law. The flag...is fabric.

The flag, on its own, does nothing. The constitution provides the ongoing framework of our nation.

The constitution DOES something.

The flag does not.

The flag is a symbol of the fundamental laws of this nation.

The constitution IS the fundamental laws of this nation

At my school, you're supposed to stand, but you don't have to pledge.

And come to think of it, my government/politics teacher had an awesome idea: make everyone stand and recite the pledge, but if you can name the court case that said you don't have to, she won't make you. Win-win, I say.How about if she can cite where it says I have to, and demonstrate that it is constitutional, then she can make me?

and so does the flag. it enshrines the laws, the spirit, and unified the people as that nation was being created. every reason you gave to support the constitution works for the flag which is the symbol of the nation and all it encompasses.The flag holds no laws, spirits, or people. It contains fabric, often a synthetic, but sometimes cotton. It is a symbol.
The constitution, conversely, physically contains the laws and structures of the nation (mind you, we aren't saying the constitution in DC that is lowered into a vault every night. We are talking about the laws of the constitution.)

the Constitution is not LAW. the Constitution is the foundation of which this country is built upon. That also makes it a symbol.
I hope you're joking, because I know you are smarter than that...
The constitution is not only law, but is our highest law, consisting of a) the physical text of the constitution b) the amendments of said text and c) the supreme court cases that are inherently constitutional law.

and the flag also encompasses those words and the spirt behind those words.
The constitution IS those words.

and the flag also encompasses those words and the spirt behind those words.

The flag encompasses some cloth that has stripes and stars on it. You, sir, place far too much store in symbols and far to little in what they represent.

Um...what?



The constitution is most certainly law. It is, in fact, supreme law. do you know what "law" means?

lets look at it without your little editing, shall we?
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.so why mention the Consitution and the Laws of the United States as seperate entities and both being the Supreme law? also it covers Treaties made or will be made under the Authority of the United States.

West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette

A few years back it had to be re-fought in Colorado after they passed a law mandating the pledge be said daily in all public schools.

Same thing can be said with the Consitution. it's how it's used. and for that, you cannot blame the object, but the people who invoke it for evey little thing.

Not even close. The flag is a piece of cloth--it only has as much symbolic value as you attach to it, which is why I don't get my drawers in a bunch when some protester burns it. The Constitution is the foundation of the laws and enumeration of state and personal rights in this country--and I'm not talking about the document under glass in DC either. When you figuratively burn that, you burn the foundation of our nation. Far more important, that.

I wonder what would've happened if someone said "First Amendment. I have the freedom of speech... but I also have the freedom NOT to speak if I choose to."Falls under symbolic speech

lets look at it without your little editing, shall we?
so why mention the Consitution and the Laws of the United States as seperate entities and both being the Supreme law? also it covers Treaties made or will be made under the Authority of the United States.
Um...re-read it.

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

So, in other words,

This constitution, and the laws that follow the constitution (placing the constitution above the laws), and treaties the US makes supercede the laws of the states and towns of the US. Judges are bound by those laws first.

it still places the constitution above the laws, and claims the constitution as a law.

The US government should be free of religion. Jesus said to give to Caesar that which belongs to Caesar and to God those things which are God's.

Whenever Religion becomes politically powerful it loses what religion should be. Jesus criticized most those religious leaders that were concerned with political power rather than religion.

lets look at it without your little editing, shall we?
so why mention the Consitution and the Laws of the United States as seperate entities and both being the Supreme law? also it covers Treaties made or will be made under the Authority of the United States.

oy, do you even bother to read what you're saying?

Read the WHOLE THING.

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof;
Now, read that. It doesn't say both are supreme law. It says the constitution is supreme law, as are laws pursuant TO the constitution.

Laws passed, in accordance with the constitution. Those laws NOT passed in accordance with the constitution are void, as the constitution is higher.

That's what the supremacy clause means.

Now look at the second part.

and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the land

Under the authority of the united states. Look at that. Not treaties made by a state, but by the nation, the federal government.

Now, what document defines the powers of the federal government?

Oh, wait, the consitution.

So, now what does this mean hm? It means that the constitution, and laws passed and treaties entered into pursuant to that constitution, are supreme.

Laws passed and treaties entered into that are NOT pursuant to the constitution are void.

it still places the constitution above the laws, and claims the constitution as a law.

Shhhh. The constitution isn't a LAW.

you know...despite the fact that it says it's a law right in it.

if the flag is a "Piece of Cloth" the Constitution is a "piece of faded Parchment".

if the Constitution is more than a "piece of faded parchment" to you, then the flag is more than a "piece of cloth".

If you believe in the Constitution and what it stands for, then when you Pledge to the Flag and to the "Republic for which it stands" then you are also pledging to the Constitution and all it represents and all it will represent.

Well said.

Well as someone who had to pledge that every bloody day at school I'd be happy to get rid of it.

Its brainwashing bollocks. Artificial construct of patriotism with a dose of nationalism and religion.


Heh I see no problem with it what-so ever. If you are religous then you will not really have any problem saying it, if you are atheist then what exactly is the problem in swearing to something non-existant anyway?

Nobody has to say the pledge anyway.

Keep it.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Nobody has to say the pledge anyway.

Keep it.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

*applauds and wipes a tear from eye*

LOL! I'm the only one who didn't know what the Pledge was :D I had to look it up on Wikipedia! Seriously, I didn't know there was anything like that at schools in USA... I don't think this stuff belongs to schools really! In the army? Sure, if you like! But don't do this kind of brainwashing to children!

i pledge my own alligence to the limitless diversity of an infinite universe, with freedom from both stress and mundaneness for all.

while carefully not advocating the overthrow of anything, i do advocate boycotting the perpetuation of the dominance of aggressiveness.

=^^=
.../\...

LOL! I'm the only one who didn't know what the Pledge was :D I had to look it up on Wikipedia! Seriously, I didn't know there was anything like that at schools in USA... I don't think this stuff belongs to schools really! In the army? Sure, if you like! But don't do this kind of brainwashing to children!

Heheheh so what are you saying that any pledge that children make is actualy brain washing? Should we petition the Scouts then?

"Under God" is, and always was, a lie. As such, I don't feel it is appropriate to have it in any official pledge or statements regarding my country, because I don't think we should be going around lying whenever we are trying to be patriotic. Though I'm a bit of an idealist, I suppose. :D

Heheheh so what are you saying that any pledge that children make is actualy brain washing? Should we petition the Scouts then?

We shouldn't force children to make pledges to anything! Seeing that there is little difference between a pledge and an oral contract... Would you force a child to sign a contract?

Separation of Church and State though people are NOT OBLIGATED to even say the pledge.

*slam!*

OBJECTION! (http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=1829171)

Edited for objection.

Well first of all most people in America believe there is some sort of God so y not just take2 secs and respect MY BELEF!!:headbang: y should i always comprimise for u WHY DONT PEOPLE COMPRIMISE FOR CHRISTIANS SOMETIMES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:headbang:

I like how the post was edited for "error", yet it still says all this. I chuckled.

*slam!*

OBJECTION!
...

Somebody's been playing Phoenix Wright...
/Off-topic

Well, aren't you proud.

What's so wrong with pledging allegiance to your own country? I mean, I guess it'd be one thing if we still supported slavery or something, but come on...

Pledging allegience to a symbol is dangerous. A symbol can be warped and spun to an agenda - the constitution, harder to do so.

Flag =/= Nation.

Nobody has to say the pledge anyway.

Keep it.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

*slam!*

OBJECTION!

*applauds and wipes a tear from eye*

Anyone else more than a little amused that it's the christians who are most supportive of this? I mean, maybe the argument would have a bit of heft if someone outside the jesusjuice circle was in on it a bit deeper than "Meh, I don't care either way".

Even if you wouldn't have to do it, it reminds me of when we had to stand up and give a minute of silence to the victims of 9/11 (it was right after the attack)... Everyone did it, only one of my classmates (my best friend btw) refused and remained on the chair. I think lots of us thought "Big deal! So a bunch of Americans were killed and we have to do this! If it happened here nobody would give a damn!" but we still did it! It was not worth the embarassing talk in front of the whole class that the teacher had with him. It's difficult to defy what you are told if you disagree with it when there's so many people obeying and you don't really know the consequences! Children shouldn't be in these situations. There should be as little politics at school as is possible!

We shouldn't force children to make pledges to anything! Seeing that there is little difference between a pledge and an oral contract... Would you force a child to sign a contract?

QFT.
I can't believe this is allowed.

We shouldn't force children to make pledges to anything! Seeing that there is little difference between a pledge and an oral contract... Would you force a child to sign a contract?

Bwhahah really, little differant between a pledge and an oral contract, so the pledge of allegiance, and the cub scouts pledge are like leagely binding contracts are they?

Bwhahah really, little differant between a pledge and an oral contract, so the pledge of allegiance, and the cub scouts pledge are like leagely binding contracts are they?

The wording certainly suggests so.

Bwhahah really, little differant between a pledge and an oral contract, so the pledge of allegiance, and the cub scouts pledge are like leagely binding contracts are they?

They would be verbal contracts, legally binding, if the contractees were adults allowed to sign away their own rights.

The last time people were made to pledge allegiance to flags in the country of my birth was during the 3rd Reich.
God or no god, I'd rather not live in any country that still does that, thank you.

Did you know that Great Britain (England for you Yanks) is the most athiest country in the entire world?:D Even more so than Soviet Russia! And we are the USAs closest allies!:cool:

They would be verbal contracts, legally binding, if the contractees were adults allowed to sign away their own rights.

Ahhh and there ladies and gentlemen, shines the light of understanding.

But really, the pledge of aleigance is a leagely binding contract? I don't think so. I guess if you where up in court being tried for treason, the fact that you made such a pledge in school would not be entered as evidance.

The pledge is pointless anyway. I was raised in the US, and said the pledge every school morning. Thing is, for a long time I had no idea what it was I was saying. We, 5-6-year-old kids, were told to repeat this sentence of long complicated words we didn't understand. If you just reproduce the sounds everyday with no regard to their meaning (as I'm sure many do), what's the point?

Ahhh and there ladies and gentlemen, shines the light of understanding.

But really, the pledge of aleigance is a leagely binding contract? I don't think so. I guess if you where up in court being tried for treason, the fact that you made such a pledge in school would not be entered as evidance.

Indeed, but it's pointless nonetheless, not to mention a possible breach of freedom of religion.

The pledge is pointless anyway. I was raised in the US, and said the pledge every school morning. Thing is, for a long time I had no idea what it was I was saying. We, 5-6-year-old kids, were told to repeat this sentence of long complicated words we didn't understand. If you just reproduce the sounds everyday with no regard to their meaning (as I'm sure many do), what's the point?

Indeed, very pointless, but there are those small percentages of children who actually understand what's going on around them, and can think for themselves - why should they be punished when bringing up the subject of refusing to say the pledge when they're entirely correct?

Ahhh and there ladies and gentlemen, shines the light of understanding.

But really, the pledge of aleigance is a leagely binding contract? I don't think so. I guess if you where up in court being tried for treason, the fact that you made such a pledge in school would not be entered as evidance.

So who decides when the pledge is legally binding? And why is it worded as if it was binding? And who tells the kids that what they're saying isn't really binding so that when they grow up a little and realize what they were saying (but still not knowing it wasn't binding in any way) they don't freak out because they were promising something so important? I would never pledge my allegiance to your country (not even mine for that matter) so I can't imagine living in a country where they force children to do so...

So who decides when the pledge is legally binding? And why is it worded as if it was binding? And who tells the kids that what they're saying isn't really binding so that when they grow up a little and realize what they were saying (but still not knowing it wasn't binding in any way) they don't freak out because they were promising something so important? I would never pledge my allegiance to your country (not even mine for that matter) so I can't imagine living in a country where they force children to do so...

I guess, that would be the laywers. Why such a big deal? As sombody said it's pointless, I'll also add it's meaningless. I force my kids to do the wshing up, sometimes you have to force kids.

However let our American friends speak on the matter. Who amongst you has been caused lasting damage from 'being forced' to take this pledge when you where a nipper?

I guess, that would be the laywers. Why such a big deal? As sombody said it's pointless, I'll also add it's meaningless. I force my kids to do the wshing up, sometimes you have to force kids.

However let our American friends speak on the matter. Who amongst you has been caused lasting damage from 'being forced' to take this pledge when you where a nipper?

Why such a big deal? BECAUSE it's pointless. There's no reason for it to be. In fact, there's reason for it NOT to be.


I'm an American friend, 'lo. I've been caused lasting cynicism and doubt cast on the intelligence and morality of my federal government. Try getting a shrink to take that shit away.

Why such a big deal? BECAUSE it's pointless. There's no reason for it to be. In fact, there's reason for it NOT to be.


I'm an American friend, 'lo. I've been caused lasting cynicism and doubt cast on the intelligence and morality of my federal government. Try getting a shrink to take that shit away.


So if it is pointless, then it is also harmless. As to being cynical about your goverment, that my freind is called being an adult, we are that way towards our goverment.

Should it be illegal? No.

Should it be there? No.

Hear, hear.

So if it is pointless, then it is also harmless. As to being cynical about your goverment, that my freind is called being an adult, we are that way towards our goverment.

I believe that, in many cases, suicide is largely pointless. That does not at all make it harmless.



Because of it's pointlessness and idiocy in repetition, it does nothing but undermine the nation to which it stands. It makes us all look stupid for saying it, tolerating it, and allowing it.

Far from harmless.

So if it is pointless, then it is also harmless.

Forcing children to do meaningless things may be pointless but it's far from harmless...

Forcing children to do meaningless things may be pointless but it's far from harmless...

Bah, you are really making a moutian out of a mole hill. Go on though, I'll be patient while you explian to me exactly the evil that this propergates, with such evidance that you have to back it up.

Same goes for you too Szanth.

Bah, you are really making a moutian out of a mole hill. Go on though, I'll be patient while you explian to me exactly the evil that this propergates, with such evidance that you have to back it up.

Same goes for you too Szanth.

Ok! So why don't you prove your point? Force your children to hop on their left foot every time they want to use the bathroom! How's that for an example? Then, after they grow up, let's ask them what they think about you and see how it changed them.

Ok! So why don't you prove your point? Force your children to hop on their left foot every time they want to use the bathroom! How's that for an example? Then, after they grow up, let's ask them what they think about you and see how it changed them.

Indeed. I already explained, in full detail, how the pledge affects how people see us, and how we see ourselves.

Also, before I go any further, I wanna take a quick check:

Peepelonia = christian?

Peepelonia = American?


Answer plzkthx.

Ok! So why don't you prove your point? Force your children to hop on their left foot every time they want to use the bathroom! How's that for an example? Then, after they grow up, let's ask them what they think about you and see how it changed them.

Yeah okay but thats a physical thing.

Lets keep it to pledging huh! I went to both cubs and scouts in my youth, and twice a week I took first the cub scout oath, and then latter the scouts one.

Now let me thing has it caused me any lasting damage, ummm no,why, coz they were just words.

However if you feel that equating your ludicrus hopping example with a pldege spoken as a child works, then you are clearly not thinking right.

I await your reasons, and your evidance with baited breath.

Also, before I go any further, I wanna take a quick check:

Peepelonia = christian?

Peepelonia = American?


Answer plzkthx.

Actually Indian and Sikh.

Indeed, very pointless, but there are those small percentages of children who actually understand what's going on around them, and can think for themselves - why should they be punished when bringing up the subject of refusing to say the pledge when they're entirely correct?

They shouldn't be. I don't see why children should be taught to say the pledge at all when it's pointless to most and possibly harmful to the rest.

I personally, in retrospect, see the pledge as the most bizarre little "ritual" that American schools have.

Yeah okay but thats a physical thing.

Lets keep it to pledging huh! I went to both cubs and scouts in my youth, and twice a week I took first the cub scout oath, and then latter the scouts one.

Now let me thing has it caused me any lasting damage, ummm no,why, coz they were just words.

However if you feel that equating your ludicrus hopping example with a pldege spoken as a child works, then you are clearly not thinking right.

I await your reasons, and your evidance with baited breath.

You're far too dismissive and far too opinionated to even be attempting a discussion, methinks.

Plain facts: Why keep something around if it's pointless? Better yet, why keep something around if it's pointless and makes us look stupid?

Why, if it's so pointless, do you fight for it to remain? It's pointless. Unless it has a point to you. I think it does. Please share.

Actually Indian and Sikh.

He lives in India?

Pledging allegience to a symbol is dangerous. A symbol can be warped and spun to an agenda - the constitution, harder to do so.

Flag =/= Nation.

You are right that the flag is a symbol of the nation. That is why they call it the NATIONAL FLAG!!!

Yeah okay but thats a physical thing.

Lets keep it to pledging huh! I went to both cubs and scouts in my youth, and twice a week I took first the cub scout oath, and then latter the scouts one.

Now let me thing has it caused me any lasting damage, ummm no,why, coz they were just words.

However if you feel that equating your ludicrus hopping example with a pldege spoken as a child works, then you are clearly not thinking right.

I await your reasons, and your evidance with baited breath.

But that's just the same thing! What's the point of saying the pledges if you don't even understand them? The same as hopping on your left foot before using the bathroom! Actually, saying the pledge seems to be ever more physically demanding and time consuming than two or three hops! The pointlessness of the procedure is very much the same!

Anyone else more than a little amused that it's the christians who are most supportive of this? I mean, maybe the argument would have a bit of heft if someone outside the jesusjuice circle was in on it a bit deeper than "Meh, I don't care either way".

*slam*

OBJECTION!!!

Anyone who knows anything about this topic knows that people ARE NOT FORCED TO SAY THE FUCKING PLEDGE OF ALLIGENCE nor are they obligated to say under God.

For Christ sakes, understand that.

Should it be illegal to say 'under God' in the United States' Pledge of Alligence:confused:

It's time to take that out. Religion is a great thing, however imposing it on others is not.

You are right that the flag is a symbol of the nation. That is why they call it the NATIONAL FLAG!!!

And they call the constitution the ... constitution. It's WAY above anything the flag represents. Anytime a soldier died "for the flag", they were really dying for the rights given to them by the constitution.

Just makes more sense.

Ahhh and there ladies and gentlemen, shines the light of understanding.

But really, the pledge of aleigance is a leagely binding contract? I don't think so. I guess if you where up in court being tried for treason, the fact that you made such a pledge in school would not be entered as evidance.

Indeed. It is not a legally binding contract at all.

Also, before I go any further, I wanna take a quick check:

Peepelonia = christian?

Peepelonia = American?


Answer plzkthx.

Nope I'm a white Sikh from London England.

However let our American friends speak on the matter. Who amongst you has been caused lasting damage from 'being forced' to take this pledge when you where a nipper?

Not me.

You're far too dismissive and far too opinionated to even be attempting a discussion, methinks.

Plain facts: Why keep something around if it's pointless? Better yet, why keep something around if it's pointless and makes us look stupid?

Why, if it's so pointless, do you fight for it to remain? It's pointless. Unless it has a point to you. I think it does. Please share.

Heheh opinionated? What are you saying that we should not hold opionions, or that we don't hold opionions?

I agree it is pointless, but as I said in a previous post. If you belive in God then surly you will have no trouble with such a pldege, if you do not then what is the problem in pldeging to something you know does not exist?

If I say I pledge allegence to the bogeyman, what does that actulay mean? What actual effect does it have on my life. Ohh that's right none! Unless you have evidance to the contrary?

*slam*

OBJECTION!!!

Anyone who knows anything about this topic knows that people ARE NOT FORCED TO SAY THE FUCKING PLEDGE OF ALLIGENCE nor are they obligated to say under God.

For Christ sakes, understand that.

Again, you're wrong. You didn't grow up where I grew up. Maybe it's different, but I live in metro-DC VA where you wouldn't even assume it to be so backwards and nationalist to where gradeschoolers would have to perform a ceremonial ritual on a daily basis in the name of the Americagod.

But they do. They make them do it. The K-6's don't usually have a choice, if for nothing but the fact that they're taught that doing the pledge is such a good thing and that if you don't do it, something's probably wrong with you.

7-12, you get more intelligent as you get higher up, and realize "Hey legally and ethically, I don't have to do this bullshit anymore." but it's not really an easy process to just one day up and decide to not do the pledge anymore. The teacher points you out, says "Why aren't you standing up/saying the pledge?" and then you have to go into a long drawn-out explanation if you want to actually convince them without any kind of "Well I won't stand for it/That's just an excuse, you're being lazy/Tell it to the principal" backwash.

It's bullshit. Sure, after wrestling with the pricipal and getting him to tell the teacher to allow it (which could take as long as he feels like) the teacher's still got a dent on you, like you left a dead squirrel on her desk one day and now every day since then she's constantly watching you to make sure you don't bring in any more dead squirrels.

You're far too dismissive and far too opinionated to even be attempting a discussion, methinks.

And Szanth SURRENDERS for he has no explaination.

Plain facts: Why keep something around if it's pointless? Better yet, why keep something around if it's pointless and makes us look stupid?

Why is the UN still around then? :D

Why, if it's so pointless, do you fight for it to remain? It's pointless. Unless it has a point to you. I think it does. Please share.

Because he's not really fighting to keep it in. He's arguing against those that have zero reason to back up their assertion that it is harmful. Which you and your cohort have yet to prove it is.

It's time to take that out. Religion is a great thing, however imposing it on others is not.

Even though it is NOT being imposed on others as it is VOLUNTARY to say it.

*slam*

OBJECTION!!!

Anyone who knows anything about this topic knows that people ARE NOT FORCED TO SAY THE FUCKING PLEDGE OF ALLIGENCE nor are they obligated to say under God.

For Christ sakes, understand that.

Oh, yeah! How would you feel as the only six year old sitting down in protesting silence when ALL of your classmates are standing up doing what they're asked to do?

But that's just the same thing! What's the point of saying the pledges if you don't even understand them? The same as hopping on your left foot before using the bathroom! Actually, saying the pledge seems to be ever more physically demanding and time consuming than two or three hops! The pointlessness of the procedure is very much the same!

No it's not the same thing ata all. The whole pledge is meaningless, it does not brainwash children into becoming Christians, it is mere words, really what and please point out exactly what, is your problem with it?

Again, you're wrong. You didn't grow up where I grew up. Maybe it's different, but I live in metro-DC VA where you wouldn't even assume it to be so backwards and nationalist to where gradeschoolers would have to perform a ceremonial ritual on a daily basis in the name of the Americagod.

Check up on the Supreme Court Decisions. According to the Supreme Court, people cannot force you to say the Pledge of Allegience and that was even BEFORE Under God was added.

Oh, yeah! How would you feel as the only six year old sitting down in protesting silence when ALL of your classmates are standing up doing what they're asked to do?

Nothing.

Oh, yeah! How would you feel as the only six year old sitting down in protesting silence when ALL of your classmates are standing up doing what they're asked to do?

If you lived in a town (and there are some like this) where on Sunday morning, everyone was in a church of one sort or another, and you weren't, would you feel bad?

Mmmmm? Or would you just enjoy sleeping in?

*slam*

OBJECTION!!!

Anyone who knows anything about this topic knows that people ARE NOT FORCED TO SAY THE FUCKING PLEDGE OF ALLIGENCE nor are they obligated to say under God.

For Christ sakes, understand that.

I was. Just because you weren't don't assume no one is.

Because he's not really fighting to keep it in. He's arguing against those that have zero reason to back up their assertion that it is harmful. Which you and your cohort have yet to prove it is.

Ahh thank you.

When I was a kid over here in the UK, we used to have to sing hymes at the morning assembly(they don't have to now) and yeah I didn't like it much(I'm no fan of Christianity) but I was forced to do it. You know what lasting impression that has had on me? None, none whatsoever, it did not turn my brain, I feel no ill will towards the schools for it, nothing, nada, nowt, nich, I was kid at the time, now I'm not.

I was. Just because you weren't don't assume no one is.

I said it because I wanted to. I was not forced to say it. I know several kids in my class that did not say it and ya know what? Nothing happened to them. GEEE!!!!

If you belive in God then surly you will have no trouble with such a pldege, if you do not then what is the problem in pldeging to something you know does not exist?

If I say I pledge allegence to the bogeyman, what does that actulay mean?

Some people, believe it or not, do not like to lie...

Heheh opinionated? What are you saying that we should not hold opionions, or that we don't hold opionions?

I agree it is pointless, but as I said in a previous post. If you belive in God then surly you will have no trouble with such a pldege, if you do not then what is the problem in pldeging to something you know does not exist?

If I say I pledge allegence to the bogeyman, what does that actulay mean? What actual effect does it have on my life. Ohh that's right none! Unless you have evidance to the contrary?

-_-

Opinionated as in, no "evidence to the contrary" will change your belief that, since it's pointless to everyone EXCEPT christians, EVERYONE should have to do it.

Ahh thank you.

When I was a kid over here in the UK, we used to have to sing hymes at the morning assembly(they don't have to now) and yeah I didn't like it much(I'm no fan of Christianity) but I was forced to do it. You know what lasting impression that has had on me? None, none whatsoever, it did not turn my brain, I feel no ill will towards the schools for it, nothing, nada, nowt, nich, I was kid at the time, now I'm not.

Just like I do not care if people do or do not say the Pledge or say Under God if they do. I was friends with several who did not say Under God and I had been bullied by "christians" who do say it.

Its up to the people to decide if they want to say it or not. They cannot be forced to say it and any school that does is violating the SCOTUS decisions on the matter.

I said it because I wanted to. I was not forced to say it. I know several kids in my class that did not say it and ya know what? Nothing happened to them. GEEE!!!!

But again, don't assume nobody is forced to just because that's your experience. If even one classroom forces it, that puts the pressure on the pledge to provide reason for it to exist at all.

-_-

Opinionated as in, no "evidence to the contrary" will change your belief that, since it's pointless to everyone EXCEPT christians, EVERYONE should have to do it.

HELLO!!! Read my signature. I'm a Christian and I DO NOT CARE if people say the Pledge with Under God, without Under God, or do not say the Pledge at all.

Figure that one out asshat.

But again, don't assume nobody is forced to just because that's your experience. If even one classroom forces it, that puts the pressure on the pledge to provide reason for it to exist at all.

It's the law that they can't force it.

I said it because I wanted to. I was not forced to say it. I know several kids in my class that did not say it and ya know what? Nothing happened to them. GEEE!!!!

I was forced to, so was everyone in my school, actually every school I every went to. Just because you're special and didn't have to doesn't mean no one did.

I can't figure out if you're making stupid assumptions or if you're just not real bright.

But again, don't assume nobody is forced to just because that's your experience. If even one classroom forces it, that puts the pressure on the pledge to provide reason for it to exist at all.

And as I said many times, by doing so, they are INVIOLATION OF THE SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND thanks to SCOTUS!

How many times does that need to be said to you?

I think Szanth assumes that people are being forced to, even if there's no proof that it's happenning, and even if forcing is illegal.

No it's not the same thing ata all. The whole pledge is meaningless, it does not brainwash children into becoming Christians, it is mere words, really what and please point out exactly what, is your problem with it?

Well, so is the hopping on one's left foot. Am I right?

If you lived in a town (and there are some like this) where on Sunday morning, everyone was in a church of one sort or another, and you weren't, would you feel bad?

Mmmmm? Or would you just enjoy sleeping in?

I guess I would feel bad, if I was a kid... That really does seem to be roughly the same situation. But what did you mean by that?

I was forced to, so was everyone in my school, actually every school I every went to. Just because you're special and didn't have to doesn't mean no one did.

I can't figure out if you're making stupid assumptions or if you're just not real bright.

I see I'm going to have to sound like a broken record when I say:

READ THE SUPREME COURT DECISIONS ON THE PLEDGE OF ALLIGENCE

I think Szanth assumes that people are being forced to, even if there's no proof that it's happenning, and even if forcing is illegal.

Ya think? I told him numerous times about SCOTUS decisions and he seems to just gloss right on over it.

HELLO!!! Read my signature. I'm a Christian and I DO NOT CARE if people say the Pledge with Under God, without Under God, or do not say the Pledge at all.

Figure that one out asshat.

Figured it out already, because that was exactly what I said, asshat.

I SAID, it doesn't mean anything to anyone EXCEPT christians, because they can pledge to their nation and their god at the same time, and link the two because of it. While EVERYONE ELSE, EVERYONE WHO ISN'T A CHRISTIAN, can find nothing meaningful in such a connection, and in fact may be offended that the state would allow and sometimes force such a link between the two.

HENCE because you are a CHRISTIAN, it may not matter if anyone else says it, but you can enjoy saying it yourself, regardless of whether it's forced or not, which is, if anything, more of an argument to take it out of schools because guess what you can still fucking say it even if they don't tell you to!

God. Damn it.

I guess I would feel bad, if I was a kid... That really does seem to be roughly the same situation. But what did you mean by that?

Why would you feel bad? Don't you believe in your own beliefs?

An extension of your argument then, would be that we would have to close down places of worship, even though the government has never mandated that people go to church.

You're saying that if you feel excluded by a majority, then that activity is wrong, and must be stopped?

I see I'm going to have to sound like a broken record when I say:

READ THE SUPREME COURT DECISIONS ON THE PLEDGE OF ALLIGENCE

I think I'm going to have to sound like the voice of reason when I say

GRADESCHOOLERS DON'T KNOW WHAT THE FUCK SCOTUS IS.

I think I'm going to have to sound like the voice of reason when I say

GRADESCHOOLERS DON'T KNOW WHAT THE FUCK SCOTUS IS.

The teacher and the school administration do.

Figured it out already, because that was exactly what I said, asshat.

I SAID, it doesn't mean anything to anyone EXCEPT christians, because they can pledge to their nation and their god at the same time, and link the two because of it.

Since you know Christians so well...does saying Under God mean anything to me? What about to the Jews and Muslims if they say it? Does it mean anything to them as well or are you just signaling out Christians in this case?

While EVERYONE ELSE, EVERYONE WHO ISN'T A CHRISTIAN, can find nothing meaningful in such a connection, and in fact may be offended that the state would allow and sometimes force such a link between the two.

Does that include Muslims and Jews and anyone else that believes in a god?

HENCE because you are a CHRISTIAN, it may not matter if anyone else says it, but you can enjoy saying it yourself, regardless of whether it's forced or not, which is, if anything, more of an argument to take it out of schools because guess what you can still fucking say it even if they don't tell you to!

God. Damn it.

And what if I choose not to say Under God regardless if I'm a Christian? What then?

Ahh thank you.

When I was a kid over here in the UK, we used to have to sing hymes at the morning assembly(they don't have to now) and yeah I didn't like it much(I'm no fan of Christianity) but I was forced to do it. You know what lasting impression that has had on me? None, none whatsoever, it did not turn my brain, I feel no ill will towards the schools for it, nothing, nada, nowt, nich, I was kid at the time, now I'm not.

And I've come to a different conclusion. What's your point? If even one child is negatively affected by such ritualism, it should not exist, regardless of how many children are completely fine with it.

It's the law that they can't force it.

Read below.

I was forced to, so was everyone in my school, actually every school I every went to. Just because you're special and didn't have to doesn't mean no one did.
I can't figure out if you're making stupid assumptions or if you're just not real bright.

And as I said many times, by doing so, they are INVIOLATION OF THE SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND thanks to SCOTUS!

How many times does that need to be said to you?

Read above.

I think Szanth assumes that people are being forced to, even if there's no proof that it's happenning, and even if forcing is illegal.

Fucking read above.

Ya think? I told him numerous times about SCOTUS decisions and he seems to just gloss right on over it.

Read above.

I think I'm going to have to sound like the voice of reason when I say

GRADESCHOOLERS DON'T KNOW WHAT THE FUCK SCOTUS IS.

I was not talking about Gradeschoolers ya shmuck. TEACHERS DO know what the fuck SCOTUS is and if they force their kids to say it (and I never saw a teacher do so), then they are in violation of the SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND which they DO the Fuck know about.

Some people, believe it or not, do not like to lie...

Mawahahah that may be the case, but it is something that the whole of humanity has in common, like it or not, we all do it, in fact we are genecticaly programed to do it. Again though, you have not laid out for me your objections nor have I seen from you any evidance to back up what objections you have?

Why would you feel bad? Don't you believe in your own beliefs?

An extension of your argument then, would be that we would have to close down places of worship, even though the government has never mandated that people go to church.

You're saying that if you feel excluded by a majority, then that activity is wrong, and must be stopped?

No, it doesn't have to. You should just tell people (especially the children) that they don't have to do it! When parents force their children to go to church, that's bad. When a school forces the children to pledge, that's bad. Children don't know that they don't have to do it when they hear "And now, everyone stand up and repeat after me...". If they hear "And now, everyone who would like to tell the Pledge of Allegiance, can stand up and repeat after me..." sure! That's a lot better!

No, it doesn't have to. You should just tell people (especially the children) that they don't have to do it! When parents force their children to go to church, that's bad. When a school forces the children to pledge, that's bad. Children don't know that they don't have to do it when they hear "And now, everyone stand up and repeat after me...". If they hear "And now, everyone who would like to tell the Pledge of Allegiance, can stand up and repeat after me..." sure! That's a lot better!

The school can't force you.

No, it doesn't have to. You should just tell people (especially the children) that they don't have to do it! When parents force their children to go to church, that's bad. When a school forces the children to pledge, that's bad.

The bolded part is unconstitutional.

Children don't know that they don't have to do it when they hear "And now, everyone stand up and repeat after me...". If they hear "And now, everyone who would like to tell the Pledge of Allegiance, can stand up and repeat after me..." sure! That's a lot better!

I heard "everyone PLEASE stand....

-_-

Opinionated as in, no "evidence to the contrary" will change your belief that, since it's pointless to everyone EXCEPT christians, EVERYONE should have to do it.

What evidance, I have asked, and asked for it, yet I have seen none of it?
As to persuading me, I am not in fact closed minded, I am not on an anti this or anti that rant, persuade me.

Since you know Christians so well...does saying Under God mean anything to me? What about to the Jews and Muslims if they say it? Does it mean anything to them as well or are you just signaling out Christians in this case?

Just singling out christians, because it was the christian god that was most likely intended during the 50's. That aside, the fact that they don't formally call their god "god" like christians do, and have alternatives such as yahweh or allah or jesus, all of which are A god, but the pledge doesn't say A god, it says GOD. As in, THE GOD. If you want to go ahead and argue that the McCarthyists that put 'Under God' in the pledge meant for it to be widespread and accepting of all cultures and religions in a very general way, then be my guest, but that's an argument you'll lose.

Does that include Muslims and Jews and anyone else that believes in a god?

Answered above.

And what if I choose not to say Under God regardless if I'm a Christian? What then?

Then you choose not to say it for a reason. What reason? Logic? The fact that it doesn't make sense? That it's not fair to those that don't believe in a deity referred to as 'god' or to those that don't believe such a deity exists? To those that believe separation of church and state should keep such a thing from being forced upon gradeschoolers in the first place? Pick a reason, they all make sense, and I'd be surprised if you agreed with any of them..

.

Care to fix the quote box or are you scared of my reply?

Well, so is the hopping on one's left foot. Am I right?



Well I see, the same old line huh! Fine, if you can't argue, or present me with facts, then I can't see this getting anywhere between me and thee huh!

The bolded part is unconstitutional.



I heard "everyone PLEASE stand....

CORNY. YOU'RE NOT FUCKING GETTING IT.

GRADE-SCHOOL KIDS DON'T KNOW IT'S UNCONSTITIONAL, SO WHEN A TEACHER URGES THEM TO STAND AND SAY SOMETHING, THEY DO IT. END OF STORY. SCOTUS DOES NOT EXIST BEFORE THE KIDS LEARN THE LONG DIVISION CURRICULUM.

Well I see, the same old line huh! Fine, if you can't argue, or present me with facts, then I can't see this getting anywhere between me and thee huh!

This is you ignoring logic. Facts are that it's pointless and harmful in ways me and others have described, and you've ignored.

Please leave the thread or stfu or admit to trolling.

I heard "everyone PLEASE stand....

Yeah! Such as you surely heard "Would you PLEASE stop talking in the middle of the class?" Image what would happen if they didn't stop. Wouldn't they be sent to the principal's office? A simple PLEASE doesn't mean you're not required to do it, if I'm not mistaken...

I was not talking about Gradeschoolers ya shmuck. TEACHERS DO know what the fuck SCOTUS is and if they force their kids to say it (and I never saw a teacher do so), then they are in violation of the SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND which they DO the Fuck know about.

Yes, but I don't see Ms. Mack or Ms. Worley or Ms. Turner or Mr. Carr or any number of other teachers that forced students to do it ending up in a fucking jailcell, do I?

CORNY. YOU'RE NOT FUCKING GETTING IT.

GRADE-SCHOOL KIDS DON'T KNOW IT'S UNCONSTITIONAL, SO WHEN A TEACHER URGES THEM TO STAND AND SAY SOMETHING, THEY DO IT. END OF STORY. SCOTUS DOES NOT EXIST BEFORE THE KIDS LEARN THE LONG DIVISION CURRICULUM.

Funny. I always heard it from the PA. The pledge that is. I never said it with a teacher only.

BTW: I was not talking about students again. Please try to follow what I am saying. But wait, you can't. You're hung up on students and I'm talking about teachers.

TEACHERS CAN NOT FORCE YOU TO STAND UP NOR CAN THEY FORCE YOU TO SAY THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIENCE. THE SCHOOL ADMINISTRATION CAN NOT FORCE YOU TO STAND UP NOR SAY THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIENCE.

YOU ARE THE ONE NOT FUCKING GETTING IT.

This is you ignoring logic. Facts are that it's pointless and harmful in ways me and others have described, and you've ignored.

Please leave the thread or stfu or admit to trolling.

*dies of laughter*

So he's trolling because he's owning your sorry ass?

Yes, but I don't see Ms. Mack or Ms. Worley or Ms. Turner or Mr. Carr or any number of other teachers that forced students to do it ending up in a fucking jailcell, do I?

Did I say that it was a jailable offense?

This forum requires that you wait 30 seconds between posts. Please try again in 4 seconds

To point:

Original pledge did NOT have 'under God' in it, and a number of the founding fathers were atheists, just to get that behind me and said.

Anyway, a view is often best looked at if one can understand both sides of the issue, which usually means trying to put yourself in the reverse situation.

Imagine, how would all you Christians/Muslims/Jews etc. feel if the pledge that your kids were forced to say said,

"I pledge allegiance, to the flag, of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under Satan, with liberty and justice for all."

In this situation, would you prefer to leave it in because "it was tradition", or would you want to make it fair to all non-Satan worshiping religions and have it taken out?

And I've come to a different conclusion. What's your point? If even one child is negatively affected by such ritualism, it should not exist, regardless of how many children are completely fine with it.

Ahhhhhh I see, it's sorta ironic really, because the line you now choose to take sounds suppiciously like the 'won't somebody pul-ease think about the children' line that I'm more used to seeing from radical christians.

So by your line of reasoning then, we should do away with school altogether?

I mean how many kids actualy enjoy going to school? Umm what about homework, we should definatly ban that, ohh ohh shoes with laces, dogs, they scare some kids shitless you know!

If we applied that to everything that may have a negitive effect on children then we would die, coz we would just not have them.

Life is hard you know, it's not always nice or good, hehe shit for many of us it's never good. Isn't it better to teach this fact to our children so that they are better eqiuped to deal with the shit when it comes their way? coz you know what it most certianly will.

As I say though, you really are making a mountian out of a mole hill, and yet You still have not presented me with evidance?

O-M-G! :headbang:
This is pointless! These guys are just not listening! I give up!
Good luck, Szanth, if you intend to continue in this...

CORNY. YOU'RE NOT FUCKING GETTING IT.


AND YOU AREN'T BRIGHT ENOUGH TO TELL YOUR KID HE DOESN'T HAVE TO DO IT...

To point:

Original pledge did NOT have 'under God' in it, and a number of the founding fathers were atheists, just to get that behind me and said.

Anyway, a view is often best looked at if one can understand both sides of the issue, which usually means trying to put yourself in the reverse situation.

Imagine, how would all you Christians/Muslims/Jews etc. feel if the pledge that your kids were forced to say said,

"I pledge allegiance, to the flag, of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under Satan, with liberty and justice for all."

In this situation, would you prefer to leave it in because "it was tradition", or would you want to make it fair to all non-Satan worshiping religions and have it taken out?

Or just not say those words.

No, it doesn't have to. You should just tell people (especially the children) that they don't have to do it! When parents force their children to go to church, that's bad. When a school forces the children to pledge, that's bad. Children don't know that they don't have to do it when they hear "And now, everyone stand up and repeat after me...". If they hear "And now, everyone who would like to tell the Pledge of Allegiance, can stand up and repeat after me..." sure! That's a lot better!

You keep saying it's bad, but show me why?

That phrase is a product of the 1950's red scares. I think we could do without it.

O-M-G! :headbang:
This is pointless! These guys are just not listening! I give up!
Good luck, Szanth, if you intend to continue in this...

HA! You have not posted anything to prove what you are stating. I guess that is saying something about you leaving a thread.

This is you ignoring logic. Facts are that it's pointless and harmful in ways me and others have described, and you've ignored.

Please leave the thread or stfu or admit to trolling.

Hehe your'e funny, I have not yet seen any logic from you're camp. Please I beg you show it to me. As for trolling, again please show where I have called you any thing foul or said anything offensive?

It is harmful to children because (but not only for this reason) it trains them to be insincere, to get accustomed to saying a solemn pledge about something they don't know, or disagree with.

Ah, crap. Picked the wrong answer. Oh well... :)

If you don't like the words "under god" in the pledge, then feel free to leave the country. :upyours:

It is not a requirement in ANY state to say the pledge every morning. OMG, it offends me, :upyours: . Guess what, the notion of removing "under god" offends me. Again I say :upyours: and with damn good reason, why? Because I FEEL like it.

Did I say that it was a jailable offense?

*sigh* No, but that's usually the punishment for breaking a crime.

What other deterrant is there? Is there some sort of fine for telling kids to do the pledge? Is some asshat named Corneliu going to incessantly remind them that they're acting against a SCOTUS decision?

Is nothing at all going to happen? If so, stafu about it being against SCOTUS and the supreme court.

The bolded part is unconstitutional.



I heard "everyone PLEASE stand....

What you didn't here was the teachers in other rooms ORDERING the children to stand, telling the ones who were being slow to hurry up, chiding those who looked like they were planing to remain in their seats . . .

I also see that you've completely ignored my post mentioning that only a few years ago this had to be re-fought in Colorado, and even after the court handed down it decision it was widely ignored.

FTEACHERS CAN NOT FORCE YOU TO STAND UP NOR CAN THEY FORCE YOU TO SAY THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIENCE. THE SCHOOL ADMINISTRATION CAN NOT FORCE YOU TO STAND UP NOR SAY THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIENCE.

YOU ARE THE ONE NOT FUCKING GETTING IT.

Neither are you Corny. Teachers are not ALLOWED to force their students to stand and pledge but SOME DO. I have yet to see any of them get in trouble for doing so.

Neither are you Corny. Teachers are not ALLOWED to force their students to stand and pledge but SOME DO. I have yet to see any of them get in trouble for doing so.

It's not a problem here in Virginia. The students get a briefing on what they are allowed to do (and it's very specific on the sitting and waiting until others finish the Pledge).

Parents also get a copy of the instructions. Teachers are briefed.

The scenario you believe occurs, evidently doesn't occur here in Virginia.

It's not a problem here in Virginia. The students get a briefing on what they are allowed to do (and it's very specific on the sitting and waiting until others finish the Pledge).

Parents also get a copy of the instructions. Teachers are briefed.

The scenario you believe occurs, evidently doesn't occur here in Virginia.

The virginia you live in apparently resides in a parallel dimension to my virginia.

Remember all those posts I made telling how this exact thing happened to me, in fairfax county?

Fairfax County, VA.

It's not a problem here in Virginia. The students get a briefing on what they are allowed to do (and it's very specific on the sitting and waiting until others finish the Pledge).

Parents also get a copy of the instructions. Teachers are briefed.

The scenario you believe occurs, evidently doesn't occur here in Virginia.

The scenario I WATCHED occur in Colorado. I was a Substitute Paraprofesional (Teachers Aid but with a cooler title, kind of like the difference between a secretary and an Administrative Assistant). Because I was a sub and it would be much easier for them to say "We'll get another one, don't come back tomorrow" than it would have been if I were employed directly at the school I didn't read the teacher the riot act they deserved.

The scenario I WATCHED occur in Colorado. I was a Substitute Paraprofesional (Teachers Aid but with a cooler title, kind of like the difference between a secretary and an Administrative Assistant). Because I was a sub and it would be much easier for them to say "We'll get another one, don't come back tomorrow" than it would have been if I were employed directly at the school I didn't read the teacher the riot act they deserved.


Again and the big deal is........?

You are right that the flag is a symbol of the nation. That is why they call it the NATIONAL FLAG!!!

You're right. And the flag is a symbol of the nation and the laws that govern it.

The constitution is the formation of the nation, and the laws that govern it.

For some reason, I find a symbol of something far less imprtant than the thing that symbol represents.

The scenario I WATCHED occur in Colorado. I was a Substitute Paraprofesional (Teachers Aid but with a cooler title, kind of like the difference between a secretary and an Administrative Assistant). Because I was a sub and it would be much easier for them to say "We'll get another one, don't come back tomorrow" than it would have been if I were employed directly at the school I didn't read the teacher the riot act they deserved.

Maybe Colorado sucks. Maybe they need to take some advice from Virginia.

The students are required to read this document, or have it read to them, and then to sign a form stating that they have either read it or had it read to them.

The parents also sign for the same reasons.

That way, everyone knows the rules in advance.

Students at each school are expected to recite the Pledge of Allegiance and to observe one minute of silence, on a daily basis, at the direction of the principal unless the student or his or her parent or guardian objects to participation in such exercises. No student shall be subjected to unfavorable comment or stigmatization for his or her decision to participate in
or to abstain from the recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance or observance of one minute of silence. Nonparticipating students are expected to sit quietly, or to stand silently, during the Pledge of Allegiance or the observance of the minute of silence and to refrain from engaging in any disruptive or distracting activity. No disciplinary sanctions may be imposed for refusal to participate in reciting the Pledge of Allegiance or in observing the minute of silence; however, willful disruption or interference with the exercise of pledging allegiance by others or interference with other students’ exercise of their choice to meditate, pray, or engage in any other silent activity may result in the same disciplinary measures accorded to other instances of classroom disruption in school.

TEACHERS CAN NOT FORCE YOU TO STAND UP NOR CAN THEY FORCE YOU TO SAY THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIENCE. THE SCHOOL ADMINISTRATION CAN NOT FORCE YOU TO STAND UP NOR SAY THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIENCE.

And what you seem to understand is that it doesn't matter.

Again and the big deal is........?

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

Yeah good, keep that up coz that's an answer. Well done you! So nobody wants to explain then, its just an endless shouting match? Ho hum such is life!

And what you seem to understand is that it doesn't matter.

The rules ARE quite explicitly stated, repeated, signed, and known where I am.

Everyone - the teachers, the administrators, the parents, and the children are all fully briefed on the Pledge as I posted above.

What you claim happened in Colorado does not take place in Virginia.

The rules ARE quite explicitly stated, repeated, signed, and known where I am.

Everyone - the teachers, the administrators, the parents, and the children are all fully briefed on the Pledge as I posted above.

What you claim happened in Colorado does not take place in Virginia.

what I claim happend in colorado? Get your posters straight.

And once again, doesn't matter. Even if it's not mandatory. Even if everybody gets to ignore it. Even if nobody what so ever is forced or compelled to do it EVER.

Still illegal.

The rules ARE quite explicitly stated, repeated, signed, and known where I am.

Everyone - the teachers, the administrators, the parents, and the children are all fully briefed on the Pledge as I posted above.

What you claim happened in Colorado does not take place in Virginia.

Szanth says it does.

And, considering I'd believe the devil himself before I believed you, I'll take his word.

The rules ARE quite explicitly stated, repeated, signed, and known where I am.

Everyone - the teachers, the administrators, the parents, and the children are all fully briefed on the Pledge as I posted above.

What you claim happened in Colorado does not take place in Virginia.

Except in Fairfax County.

Yeah good, keep that up coz that's an answer. Well done you! So nobody wants to explain then, its just an endless shouting match? Ho hum such is life!

Well, you don't seem to understand the clear and already explained problem with a daily loyalty oath sworn in the name of the Christians god, so there's really not a lot left to do when you chime in.

Except in Fairfax County.

Sorry, no teachers out of line here.

Well, you don't seem to understand the clear and already explained problem with a daily loyalty oath sworn in the name of the Christians god, so there's really not a lot left to do when you chime in.

Sheesh, okay show me where it has been explained, because I have been here since page ten or so were I said something along the lines of.

'I can see no problem what-so-ever, as surly those who belive in God will have no problem with it, and those that don't will have no problem pledgeing towards somthing they don't belive in'

Nobody has explained why there would be a problem to me, even though I have asked about half a dozen times.

So please explain it to me?

As to Christian God, sorry, does the pledge menation, Just JHVH, or The God of Abraham? No I think it just says God.

God is the word we use to talk about the creator of the universe, as Allah is the Arabic translation of the word God. So nowhere does it explicitly state just the Christian God.

I also said as a demonstration of how you are all rowing about what is basicaly a nothing, a non-problem, something along the lines of:

'If I pledged alligence to the bogeyman(a thing I don't belive exists) then what does that actualy mean, or what harm does it do me?'

Nothing, it means nowt, it does me now harm, it does not serve to brainwash me into beliving in the bogey man, it is rubbish and I realise it is so. So again, what is the issue here?

In reality there is non, it is people getting all upset over nothing. Unless you have evidance, objective evidnace that people have been harmed, or are being harmed in some way, any way by this. Ff that is the case, then show me, I have asked this half a dozen times, and yet, nobody has complied with me request?

I wonder why?

Sheesh, okay show me where it has been explained, because I have been here since page ten or so were I said something along the lines of.

'I can see no problem what-so-ever, as surly those who belive in God will have no problem with it, and those that don't will have no problem pledgeing towards somthing they don't belive in'

You see no problem with the government violating the constitution?

Nobody has explained why there would be a problem to me, even though I have asked about half a dozen times.

So please explain it to me?

If you need that explained to you you're thick.

As to Christian God, sorry, does the pledge menation, Just JHVH, or The God of Abraham? No I think it just says God.

God is the word we use to talk about the creator of the universe, as Allah is the Arabic translation of the word God. So nowhere does it explicitly state just the Christian God.

Which explicitly rules out animism, polytheism, and a whole slew of other religions.

I also said as a demonstration of how you are all rowing about what is basicaly a nothing, a non-problem, something along the lines of:

'If I pledged alligence to the bogeyman(a thing I don't belive exists) then what does that actualy mean, or what harm does it do me?'

And you continually miss the problem by a mile. The contents of the pledge is federal law. Federal law has created a reference to god. It shouldn't be able to do that.

period.

Nothing, it means nowt, it does me now harm, it does not serve to brainwash me into beliving in the bogey man, it is rubbish and I realise it is so. So again, what is the issue here?

Police coming into your house rifling through your drawers and then leaving doesn't harm me, but it's still illegal.

In reality there is non, it is people getting all upset over nothing. Unless you have evidance, objective evidnace that people have been harmed, or are being harmed in some way, any way by this.

Yes, some of us actually stand up for something that's wrong even when it doesn't personally harm us.

This is called conviction, and standing up on principle.

When you understand that, come back here.

Illegal is the wrong word. No, It should not be illegal.

It shouldn't be there either. It wasn't in it originally. It was added in the 50's (I believe).

Edit: Francis Bellamy would have more than likely objected to the addition. He wasn't fond of churches. Interestingly enough, he was a baptist minister.

Nobody has explained why there would be a problem to me, even though I have asked about half a dozen times.

So please explain it to me?

As to Christian God, sorry, does the pledge menation, Just JHVH, or The God of Abraham? No I think it just says God.

God is the word we use to talk about the creator of the universe, as Allah is the Arabic translation of the word God. So nowhere does it explicitly state just the Christian God.


Well the Knight's of Columbus were one of the major champions for getting the phrase added. The fact it is "God" and not "god" also points it's meaning to the Christian god.

I also said as a demonstration of how you are all rowing about what is basicaly a nothing, a non-problem, something along the lines of:

'If I pledged alligence to the bogeyman(a thing I don't belive exists) then what does that actualy mean, or what harm does it do me?'


Then there is nothing wrong with removing it right?

In reality there is non, it is people getting all upset over nothing. Unless you have evidance, objective evidnace that people have been harmed, or are being harmed in some way, any way by this. Ff that is the case, then show me, I have asked this half a dozen times, and yet, nobody has complied with me request?

I wonder why?

There have been instances where some kids were "picked on" in the Bible belt I believe. As to something of the level of committing suicide, then no there hasn't been.

Many Christians will tell you that this country was founded for Christianity. The fact they zealously defend keeping these phrases in place is a good reason for their removal simply to send them a message of you are free to worship as you see fit but don't expect everybody else to live by your moral code.