NationStates Jolt Archive

OK so it's time for another of my Battlestar Galactica threads.

(Forgive me if there's already been a thread. I didn't see one)

Last night's episode blew my mind utterly. My fiancee and I were in shock.
But now the question remains: Who is the last Cylon model?

We have discussed the obvious candidates like Starbuck and Baltar, but with our minds still reeling from the episode and so many theories flying around, I wonder what y ou guys think?

I want to say starbuck as it would be a great cover. Somebody with such hatred would not be questioned.

Roselyn could be a choice. It might be argued that since she is so hopped up on drugs; she missed the call. Then again, why have the assistant?

Baltar is probably not a cylon.

Hell they are all cylons!

I want to say starbuck as it would be a great cover. Somebody with such hatred would not be questioned.

Roselyn could be a choice. It might be argued that since she is so hopped up on drugs; she missed the call. Then again, why have the assistant?

Baltar is probably not a cylon.

Hell they are all cylons!

You're thinking exactly what I was about Roslyn, sinc eshe was the only non-Cylon to appear in her vision (besides Baltar, who, existing in Caprica's mind could have been there through other means)

Starbuck seems to have returned strangely at peace... I'm thinking this corresponds to the ships of light in the original BSG, which kinda makes me discount her as the last Cylon.

What if, in another nod to the original, the last Cylon is Lucifer, and a model we haven't yet seen?

it's me.

i'm also spartacus.

it's me.

i'm also spartacus.

Well dammit why didn't you say so sooner?

Well dammit why didn't you say so sooner?

i don't like to brag, but sometimes i just get that yearning for acknowledgement and i end up blurting it out. now i'm going have to lie low til everyone forgets again. afterall i don't want to get crucified, and i wouldn't like to think what happens to cylons. i am presuming i am a baddie heading for a messy end here.

You're thinking exactly what I was about Roslyn, sinc eshe was the only non-Cylon to appear in her vision (besides Baltar, who, existing in Caprica's mind could have been there through other means)

Starbuck seems to have returned strangely at peace... I'm thinking this corresponds to the ships of light in the original BSG, which kinda makes me discount her as the last Cylon.

What if, in another nod to the original, the last Cylon is Lucifer, and a model we haven't yet seen?

To further your theory, she found Earth, which I believe is what happened on the ship of light thing as well.

I think Roslyn is seeing shit because she has Cylon blood in her now. Since Tyg is a Cylon it's easy for Starbuck to be one because Tyg hates the Cylons more than anyone.

And dude-Apollo's speech on the stand? Sweet crap...I dream of writing monologues like that. And it's totally been what I've been thinking. The whole time I was always wondering, "What did they expect him to do?" Kick fucking ass.

I'm a little weirded out, almost taken out of the whole thing and started chuckling, that the Cylons gather over them all hearing All Along the Watchtower...what the hell?

To further your theory, she found Earth, which I believe is what happened on the ship of light thing as well.

I think Roslyn is seeing shit because she has Cylon blood in her now. Since Tyg is a Cylon it's easy for Starbuck to be one because Tyg hates the Cylons more than anyone.

And dude-Apollo's speech on the stand? Sweet crap...I dream of writing monologues like that. And it's totally been what I've been thinking. The whole time I was always wondering, "What did they expect him to do?" Kick fucking ass.

I'm a little weirded out, almost taken out of the whole thing and started chuckling, that the Cylons gather over them all hearing All Along the Watchtower...what the hell?

Right there with ya on Apollo's rant. That was awesome. I wouldn't be surprised if that was originally a rant posted on some BSG forum and the episode writer said 'hey.. wouldn't it be awesome if Lee or somebody delivered this speech?' By the time he was done, I was ready to Acquit Baltar myself.

I still can't see Starbuck as a Cylon, and I think the reason is that if Starbuck was supposed to be the great leader that would find Earth, as prophecied in the scriptures, then that would be incompatible with the Cylon's theology as well as their inability to find Earth on their own.

Right there with ya on Apollo's rant. That was awesome. I wouldn't be surprised if that was originally a rant posted on some BSG forum and the episode writer said 'hey.. wouldn't it be awesome if Lee or somebody delivered this speech?' By the time he was done, I was ready to Acquit Baltar myself.

I still can't see Starbuck as a Cylon, and I think the reason is that if Starbuck was supposed to be the great leader that would find Earth, as prophecied in the scriptures, then that would be incompatible with the Cylon's theology as well as their inability to find Earth on their own.

They've been pretty good about the speeches on that show. The only one on tv that does timely good speeches 'better' really is Aaron Sorkin, and his are so good and timely that it almost becomes cheesy, like "Time for someone to wrap up the episode with a well worded speech..."

The Starbuck theory about the reference to the old show is interesting and my friend is an advocate as well. I'm almost convinced, since it's hard for me to come up with an argument anymore.

I would like to point out that despite the Tigh, Anders, and the other two concluding that they were Cylons, there's no proof aside from the song and their own beliefs. Also, if they are cylons, why hasn't their programming kicked in?


I'm fairly sure at this point that Starbuck is a Cylon, because I think that she really did die in that episode and we're seeing a resurrected model. I think it's either a further trap by the Cylons, or they want humanity to find Earth.

I'm a little weirded out, almost taken out of the whole thing and started chuckling, that the Cylons gather over them all hearing All Along the Watchtower...what the hell?That's the place where I started wondering if Bob Dylan was going to show up as the last member of the final five, like they're some sort of intergalactic Traveling Wilburys or something.

I would like to point out that despite the Tigh, Anders, and the other two concluding that they were Cylons, there's no proof aside from the song and their own beliefs. Also, if they are cylons, why hasn't their programming kicked in?I have my own questions about that as well--they left just enough wiggle room that if they want to back out next season, they can. The thing I wonder about Tigh is that he's been around so long--didn't he fight in the first Cylon War? If he didn't, he had to have been close, and it was right around that time that he met Adama, which means the flesh versions of the Cylons are a lot older than I believed they were at the beginning of the series.


I'm fairly sure at this point that Starbuck is a Cylon, because I think that she really did die in that episode and we're seeing a resurrected model. I think it's either a further trap by the Cylons, or they want humanity to find Earth.
Well, the desire of the Cylons for the others to find earth is pretty apparent, I think. There's been hints that finding earth will result in some sort of grand unification between Cylon and human.

I'm a little weirded out, almost taken out of the whole thing and started chuckling, that the Cylons gather over them all hearing All Along the Watchtower...what the hell?

that's cause dylan....

That's the place where I started wondering if Bob Dylan was going to show up as the last member of the final five, like they're some sort of intergalactic Traveling Wilburys or something.

...damn, beaten to it

I would like to point out that despite the Tigh, Anders, and the other two concluding that they were Cylons, there's no proof aside from the song and their own beliefs. Also, if they are cylons, why hasn't their programming kicked in?


I'm fairly sure at this point that Starbuck is a Cylon, because I think that she really did die in that episode and we're seeing a resurrected model. I think it's either a further trap by the Cylons, or they want humanity to find Earth.
They are the final five (well, four), maybe they have some other deal going on. Starbuck showing up with the Cylons does kinda indicate that she might be one.

That's the place where I started wondering if Bob Dylan was going to show up as the last member of the final five, like they're some sort of intergalactic Traveling Wilburys or something.
Quality.

I don't think Tigh's a Cylon. My dad and I were talking it over last night and we're pretty sure he fought in the first Cylon war which was right about the time they gained sentience. I dont think there were any skin-jobs around back then, I think they were developed in the period of no contact when they were on the other side of the armistice line. Again, just what we've managed to piece together so we could be wrong.

Lee's speech was good and all but I'd like to point out that Baltar's still a frakkin' traitor and should be dealt as such. Ok...That's all for my little rant.

Rosalyn or Admiral Odama. Baltar is cracked up and therefore probably isn't a Cylon.

Lee's speech was good and all but I'd like to point out that Baltar's still a frakkin' traitor and should be dealt as such. Ok...That's all for my little rant.About Baltar--I think what happened there is that the storyline they'd mapped out changed, and they had to adjust. I read an interview with the creator over at Salon.com, and he noted that they'd pulled most of a storyline involving the Sagitarons on New Caprica and had been forced to adjust some of the other episodes to compensate. After watching last night's show, I got the feeling they were pulling a Saddam-like trial, especially when the prosecutor a couple of episodes back said "you charge what you can prove, not what you wish you can prove." (Echoes of Scooter Libby as well.) Saddam wasn't tried for all the genocide he committed--just one particular episode against the Kurds (some suggest because it limited his potential defense). Baltar--in the initial plan--might have been facing trial for something that happened to the Sagitarons on New Caprica, instead of his actions as President.

The other thing about Baltar is that while he may indeed be guilty of treason from the initial attack, it would be difficult to prove intent (though willful blindness might come up), and more importantly, there's no substantial evidence to convict him outside Roslyn's memory of seeing him with Caprica 6.

Ok, Starbuck is the most probable choice. What is the main difference between a cylon and a human. Cylons do not die.

Now we saw starbucks viper go bye bye, and they never sent in a rescue party, so even if she ejected she would have died in 24 hours.

Even if the cylon raider came and saved her, where did she get that unknown viper. It could not be a colonial viper because it appeared on draidus as UNKNOWN. Also it looks similiar to the Mark II that kara flew, minues any battle damage. I believe her when she says she was on earth, I think she died was downloaded to earth and was able to get back to the colonial fleet.

Roslin's visison can easily be explained by the "magic baby blood". The hybrid blood in side of her according to RDM was supposed to mess with her, even to the point of partial links to cylon network.

OF course Starbuck lovers will never want to hear that she is a cylon, but you have to remember, if the other four are cylons, then one thing is a fact. The Final Five are aiding the Colonials to earth, not fighting them. THis would also explain why the signifigant seven do not speak oft he final five, and forbid any knowledge of them. Just my opinion.

My Fiancee and I were discussing another possible idea that takes into account the fact that Tigh was in the first Cylon was and thus, would predate skinjobs:

Suppose for a moment that the Skinjobs aren't Cylons in the same sense as centurions or raiders. Remember that in the old series the Cylons were a form of alien life that had transfered into mechanical bodies. That being the case, it might be a clue about what's happening now:

Suppose that it was this alien race that backed the original Cylon rebellion against the Colonies. Maybe even triggered it. That would explain why Cylons went from pure mechanical forms to a sort of cybernetic mix. Look at the raiders. Metal on the outside, all squishy on the inside. Now, suppose these aliens gave the Cylons the blueprints/facilities to make 7 models... the skinjobs. If they held back the remaining 5, then it's easy to imagine a scenario where they predated the Cylon skinjobs quite neatly.

Which brings us to the next logical step: how much Cylon gear is actually Cylon-invented and how much was borrowed from these aliens? Base Ships are obviously not only organic but their CPU is a humanoid who appears to not count as one of the 12 Cylon models. These hypothetical aliens would go along way toward explaining Cylon evolution, Cylon theology and even some of the internal Cylon activities.

The Base Ships that appeared just after the Colonial Fleet lost power have not yet made any aggressive moves. They may be the original aliens/final 5 as opposed to the ones we've come to know and love. Their arrival coincided with the music heard by the 4 as we saw last night as well as Starbuck.

As for Starbuck... I don't think she's a Cylon but I do think she knows about the final 5. Remember jsut before she "died" she saw visions of Leoben who admitted to not actually BEING Leoben. It must have been one of the final 5 (was flying in a Cylon heavy raider) but masqueraded as Leoben. (This makes sense. Starbuck would probably not have reached the spiritual state she did if her guide had been Tigh, Anders, Tyrol or what's her name... all people known to her in a completely separate context. Meanwhile she did connect with Leoben on some spiritual level, making his image a more suitable guide.

I think in this new series the Final 5 and the Seraphs are either the same or are opponents of each other. That would explain why she reappeared at the same time as the Base Ships. Remember, she came from a different direction from those ships, implying that she did not arrive with them.

Well, as long as we're speculating, what if the aliens are actually the 13th colonists who came back and triggered the first Cylon War as some sort of revenge against the original 12?

Well, as long as we're speculating, what if the aliens are actually the 13th colonists who came back and triggered the first Cylon War as some sort of revenge against the original 12?

You know... That wouldn't surpise me one damn bit.

Edit: Actually it would surprise me only because of the probe that was linked to the 13th colony but was lethal to the Cylons who encountered it.

Count Iblis... that was the guy I was trying to think of... maybe his analog is model #12...

Does each Cylon model relate to a specific colony? What does that say about the five colony that are related to the final five?

I never realized how ingrained their mythology is until I just now thought, 'They call themselves colonies.' They had no perminant identity, they considered themselves a settlement in development up until they where attacked, they where a refugee people in philosophy before they became one in reality.

Interesting.

gawd y'all think about this stuff so much. you not only remember everyone's name but you know how to spell them!

what a great episode. i wondered how baltar was going to get off; now i know. i wondered what was up with that music thing; now i know. i wondered what happened to starbuck; now i know.

did i miss this "baltar as demi-god" plotline starting sometime in the past? i see no need for him to be a cylon, he has a new job as prophet/messiah/whatever-the-fuck-leads-people-to-think-that-he-has-healing-powers.

and what about the chief's baby? thats half cylon too. it makes hera much less of a rare item eh?

starbuck's viper exploded. she is alive. im putting her in as the last cylon.

the part i hate the most is having to wait 'til next year to see what happens next. grrrrrr

I personally think that they is 13th model, that the cylons don't know about.
12 Colonies, 12 models, 1 lost colony, 1 lost model.

Does each Cylon model relate to a specific colony? What does that say about the five colony that are related to the final five?

I don't think so, because Anders, Starbuck and Tigh (I believe) are all from Caprica, although you could be right because they haven't spent a long time discussing backgrounds of those characters. I think Tyrol is from somewhere else. There's no telling where Tory is from, though based on the way they were going a few weeks ago with the "Baltar is one of the commoners" line, I'd guess she's from one of the more affluent colonies.

Tigh is the one who sticks out for me, simply because he and Adama go back so far, although not quite to the first Cylon war as I hinted at earlier. They met in the merchant fleet and talked about "rejoining the fleet." Not all that tough, presumably, for a robot species to dummy up some records for Tigh and insert him, but it does mean he's one of the earliest models--perhaps a reason for his alcoholism?

My Fiancee and I were discussing another possible idea that takes into account the fact that Tigh was in the first Cylon was and thus, would predate skinjobs:

Suppose for a moment that the Skinjobs aren't Cylons in the same sense as centurions or raiders. Remember that in the old series the Cylons were a form of alien life that had transfered into mechanical bodies. That being the case, it might be a clue about what's happening now:

Suppose that it was this alien race that backed the original Cylon rebellion against the Colonies. Maybe even triggered it. That would explain why Cylons went from pure mechanical forms to a sort of cybernetic mix. Look at the raiders. Metal on the outside, all squishy on the inside. Now, suppose these aliens gave the Cylons the blueprints/facilities to make 7 models... the skinjobs. If they held back the remaining 5, then it's easy to imagine a scenario where they predated the Cylon skinjobs quite neatly.

Which brings us to the next logical step: how much Cylon gear is actually Cylon-invented and how much was borrowed from these aliens? Base Ships are obviously not only organic but their CPU is a humanoid who appears to not count as one of the 12 Cylon models. These hypothetical aliens would go along way toward explaining Cylon evolution, Cylon theology and even some of the internal Cylon activities.

The Base Ships that appeared just after the Colonial Fleet lost power have not yet made any aggressive moves. They may be the original aliens/final 5 as opposed to the ones we've come to know and love. Their arrival coincided with the music heard by the 4 as we saw last night as well as Starbuck.

As for Starbuck... I don't think she's a Cylon but I do think she knows about the final 5. Remember jsut before she "died" she saw visions of Leoben who admitted to not actually BEING Leoben. It must have been one of the final 5 (was flying in a Cylon heavy raider) but masqueraded as Leoben. (This makes sense. Starbuck would probably not have reached the spiritual state she did if her guide had been Tigh, Anders, Tyrol or what's her name... all people known to her in a completely separate context. Meanwhile she did connect with Leoben on some spiritual level, making his image a more suitable guide.

I think in this new series the Final 5 and the Seraphs are either the same or are opponents of each other. That would explain why she reappeared at the same time as the Base Ships. Remember, she came from a different direction from those ships, implying that she did not arrive with them.

This is a good theory, the only problem with it is the fact that the producers of the show have stated multiple times that there will not be any aliens in BSG. However this does make a new possibility.

What if the final five cylons, are actually cylons created on earth and not the colonies. This would explain their lack of downloading, their sleeper status, and their apprehension to the seven.

The cylon fleet that showed up at the end of the show could even be the finial five fleet, not the signifigant seven. This would explain how Starbucks viper with an unknown transponder would be able to make it back to the galactica, as in the show vipers do not have FTL drives. It would also explain how the cylons could exist before the skin job cylons did, and how they have a different point of view than the signifigant seven.

Of course this all is under the assumption that earth has been keeping tabs on the Colonies without the colonies knowledge, and that earth may be far more advanced than the colonies. It is highly flawed, but it does make a fair amount of sense, especailly since "everything that has happened before will happen again."

I personally think that they is 13th model, that the cylons don't know about.
12 Colonies, 12 models, 1 lost colony, 1 lost model.

There is the 13th model. If you remember before Cloud nine was blown up by Gina, when they were planning on kidnapping Hera, Gina (six) stated she hated the name of the child because it was named after a false goddess. She recommended that they change her name to 13 :)

It may be more of a foreshadowing than we knew of

(Wow I am a geek...)

gawd y'all think about this stuff so much. you not only remember everyone's name but you know how to spell them!
I've never liked this accusation. It's not like we where pouring over volumes of research and locking ourselves in rooms for hours of quiet contemplation. I can't speak for others, but I thought about it between the time I read the question to the time I wrote my answer. I can see it being 'too much' if I forget to eat or something like that, or answer work questions with, "I think Starbuck is a Cylon," but otherwise if I spend a few moments after the episode mulling its implications or answering a question, is that really 'too much'?

And, I'd like to point out that I apparently didn't know how to spell the names.[/pointlessly defensive]

what a great episode. i wondered how baltar was going to get off; now i know. i wondered what was up with that music thing; now i know. i wondered what happened to starbuck; now i know.

did i miss this "baltar as demi-god" plotline starting sometime in the past? i see no need for him to be a cylon, he has a new job as prophet/messiah/whatever-the-fuck-leads-people-to-think-that-he-has-healing-powers.

It was developing in captivity, it was hinted at during the strike episode, which I dug and now has all new implications...

and what about the chief's baby? thats half cylon too. it makes hera much less of a rare item eh?
DUDE! Didn't even think of that. (Now who's thinking about it too much ;P) His wife is crazy cute. Dammit.

starbuck's viper exploded. she is alive. im putting her in as the last cylon.

the part i hate the most is having to wait 'til next year to see what happens next. grrrrrr
No fucking shit. Are they kidding me? 2008? Bastards.

I don't think so, because Anders, Starbuck and Tigh (I believe) are all from Caprica, although you could be right because they haven't spent a long time discussing backgrounds of those characters. I think Tyrol is from somewhere else. There's no telling where Tory is from, though based on the way they were going a few weeks ago with the "Baltar is one of the commoners" line, I'd guess she's from one of the more affluent colonies.

Tigh is the one who sticks out for me, simply because he and Adama go back so far, although not quite to the first Cylon war as I hinted at earlier. They met in the merchant fleet and talked about "rejoining the fleet." Not all that tough, presumably, for a robot species to dummy up some records for Tigh and insert him, but it does mean he's one of the earliest models--perhaps a reason for his alcoholism?
Yeah, that's a hard one to make work.

The Tigh thing is really interesting. I loved his reaction when he walked in the room and saw the others.

the part i hate the most is having to wait 'til next year to see what happens next. grrrrrr
There's supposed to be some sort of supplemental 2-hour deal happening in the fall, but from what I understand, it's meant to fill in the background and the edges rather than advance the story any.

I'll say this much though--I'm glad they got their shit together in the last two episodes, because I was about to give up on the show.

I've never liked this accusation. It's not like we where pouring over volumes of research and locking ourselves in rooms for hours of quiet contemplation. I can't speak for others, but I thought about it between the time I read the question to the time I wrote my answer. I can see it being 'too much' if I forget to eat or something like that, or answer work questions with, "I think Starbuck is a Cylon," but otherwise if I spend a few moments after the episode mulling its implications or answering a question, is that really 'too much'?

And, I'd like to point out that I apparently didn't know how to spell the names.[/pointlessly defensive]



what made you think that was an accusation?


It was developing in captivity, it was hinted at during the strike episode, which I dug and now has all new implications...



i remember baltar having smuggled out writing of a unionist nature, analyzing the class structure of the fleet, but where did the "please take this picture and heal my son" thing come from? was mysticism included in his book?

There's supposed to be some sort of supplemental 2-hour deal happening in the fall, but from what I understand, it's meant to fill in the background and the edges rather than advance the story any.

I'll say this much though--I'm glad they got their shit together in the last two episodes, because I was about to give up on the show.

oh cool.

did they say anything about more internet scenes like the did last summer?

what made you think that was an accusation?



I read 'so' as 'too'.

i remember baltar having smuggled out writing of a unionist nature, analyzing the class structure of the fleet, but where did the "please take this picture and heal my son" thing come from? was mysticism included in his book?
The colonists seem to form cults at the drop of the hat.

There is the 13th model. If you remember before Cloud nine was blown up by Gina, when they were planning on kidnapping Hera, Gina (six) stated she hated the name of the child because it was named after a false goddess. She recommended that they change her name to 13 :)

It may be more of a foreshadowing than we knew of

I forgot about that.

(Wow I am a geek...)

Don't worry, we all are geeks on the inisde.

There's supposed to be some sort of supplemental 2-hour deal happening in the fall, but from what I understand, it's meant to fill in the background and the edges rather than advance the story any.

I'll say this much though--I'm glad they got their shit together in the last two episodes, because I was about to give up on the show.

Do you recall where you heard about the 2 hour thing? I'd like to read up on that.

I agree about the last part. I guess I gotlulled into the feeling that things were stalling. Little did I know it was like a fuse burning toward a BIG powder keg!

Do you recall where you heard about the 2 hour thing? I'd like to read up on that.

I agree about the last part. I guess I gotlulled into the feeling that things were stalling. Little did I know it was like a fuse burning toward a BIG powder keg!
Here. (http://salon.com/ent/feature/2007/03/24/battlestar/) You may have to sit through a brief ad to read the article.

Here. (http://salon.com/ent/feature/2007/03/24/battlestar/) You may have to sit through a brief ad to read the article.

Thanks, and here's another one I found through SciFi.com that I think is a little more recent.

Interview with Ron Moore (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07085/770732-352.stm)