NationStates Jolt Archive

being a religeous term and concept it has no bussiness being the bussiness of any government.

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If that is true, then I think the best possible thing that could be done is for those women to immediately divorce the assholes who think her weight justifies his infidelity.

ESPECIALLY if she gained the weight due to PREGNANCY. She did 100% of the physical work of making your kids, and now you're gonna tell her that it's her job to maintain a sufficiently fuckable appearance in order to keep you from sneaking around and cheating on her?

Guy like that is worthless as a partner , a husband, and a father. Best thing for her and her kids would be to get rid of him, pronto.

Seconded, as usual :D

Yeah I tell me wife that every day, 'don't you get fat on me girl' Hehh she just ignorese me, or even better slaps me:eek:
My boyfriend and I joke about this kind of thing, too, because it just seems so stupid to us.

We are all going to get older. Our skin will sag. Our boobies or balls will droop. Our hair will fall out or go gray. We will get wrinkles. We will no longer look like the hawt hawt hawt 20-somethings we once did.

So?

If all I wanted was somebody hot to fuck, why would I bother being in a relationship? Why on Earth would I get married to a person if what mattered most to me was their body? Their body will not stay as it is forever, so why would I pledge to be their mate for life when I know full well that their body will not remain unchanged for life?

:rolleyes:
A vast majority of women, who were thin at the time of getting married, gain a lot of weight quickly afterwards, or at least after their first child. This is a major source of grievance for married men, although I don't know how much it contributes to adultery rates.
If that where the case, how many people would be divorced today?

Ok, so there are some shallow men out there, but, I highly doubt that is the main reason for infidelity.

I know plenty of women who are not perfectly slim but have decent figures and I know of one who has a good, slim form, but her husband cheated on her. Yes, of all of them, it was the slender one who had the cheating husband.

I doubt weight is a source of grievance in most cases.

The problem comes when there is little intimacy.

My boyfriend and I joke about this kind of thing, too, because it just seems so stupid to us.

We are all going to get older. Our skin will sag. Our boobies or balls will droop. Our hair will fall out or go gray. We will get wrinkles. We will no longer look like the hawt hawt hawt 20-somethings we once did.

So?

If all I wanted was somebody hot to fuck, why would I bother being in a relationship? Why on Earth would I get married to a person if what mattered most to me was their body? Their body will not stay as it is forever, so why would I pledge to be their mate for life when I know full well that their body will not remain unchanged for life?

That is, of course, all true and correct. But just because change is inevitable, that doesn't mean it couldn't or shouldn't be resisted or slowed down. A partner, who doesn't want to appear attractive to the other, isn't any better than a partner, who concentrates on the other's looks.

That is, of course, all true and correct. But just because change is inevitable, that doesn't mean it couldn't or shouldn't be resisted or slowed down. A partner, who doesn't want to appear attractive to the other, isn't any better than a partner, who concentrates on the other's looks.

Are you now proposing laws to force partners to remain attractive to each other???

If that where the case, how many people would be divorced today?

Ok, so there are some shallow men out there, but, I highly doubt that is the main reason for infidelity.

I know plenty of women who are not perfectly slim but have decent figures and I know of one who has a good, slim form, but her husband cheated on her. Yes, of all of them, it was the slender one who had the cheating husband.

I doubt weight is a source of grievance in most cases.

The problem comes when there is little intimacy.

I did say, and I quote, "I don't know how much it contributes to adultery rates". I'm sure it alone doesn't drive many men to adultery or divorce, especially if kids are involved, but when the partner changes negatively so much so rapidly, it's bound to cause tension and negative emotions.

My parents, for example, suffer from this a lot, and my mother isn't even severely overweight.

Are you now proposing laws to force partners to remain attractive to each other???

:D
I'm proposing the common decency for partners to remain as attractive as reasonably possible to each other.

:D
I'm proposing the common decency for partners to remain as attractive as reasonably possible to each other.
So you think everyone should have cosmetic surgery?

So you think everyone should have cosmetic surgery?

I don't think that falls under the 'reasonably' possible category.

Besides, if there's something so badly wrong in the appearance of someone that their partner wouldn't accept them without surgery, they probably wouldn't have gotten together in the first place.

That is, of course, all true and correct. But just because change is inevitable, that doesn't mean it couldn't or shouldn't be resisted or slowed down. A partner, who doesn't want to appear attractive to the other, isn't any better than a partner, who concentrates on the other's looks.
Fuck that noise. Yes, they are better.

A partner who is unable to accept that their spouse's body will change is a loser who has no business being married in the first place. A man who would give his post-pregnancy wife grief for not being as slim as she was before being pregnant is a loser who has no business being a husband OR a father.

The fact that you assume somebody must want to be THIN to be attractive to their partner is very telling. I want to be attractive to my partner, but fucked if I'm going to be with anybody who equates "attractive" with "must be smaller than size X." That's just as stupid as somebody who insists that their wife must get boobie implants or else she clearly doesn't want to be attractive to him.

I did say, and I quote, "I don't know how much it contributes to adultery rates". I'm sure it alone doesn't drive many men to adultery or divorce, especially if kids are involved, but when the partner changes negatively so much so rapidly, it's bound to cause tension and negative emotions.

My parents, for example, suffer from this a lot, and my mother isn't even severely overweight.
And your Dad? How's he looking? Does he spend as much time on his appearance as your mother spends on hers?

:D
I'm proposing the common decency for partners to remain as attractive as reasonably possible to each other.
Then I guess it's all about how you define "reasonable."

I consider it unreasonable for a man to demand that his post-pregnancy wife slim down for his pleasure or else be held responsible for his cheating on her.

:D
I'm proposing the common decency for partners to remain as attractive as reasonably possible to each other.

Who defines "reasonable"?
Just FYI, I happen to be overweight.

And your Dad? How's he looking? Does he spend as much time on his appearance as your mother spends on hers?

Good point!

My boyfriend and I joke about this kind of thing, too, because it just seems so stupid to us.

We are all going to get older. Our skin will sag. Our boobies or balls will droop. Our hair will fall out or go gray. We will get wrinkles. We will no longer look like the hawt hawt hawt 20-somethings we once did.

So?

If all I wanted was somebody hot to fuck, why would I bother being in a relationship? Why on Earth would I get married to a person if what mattered most to me was their body? Their body will not stay as it is forever, so why would I pledge to be their mate for life when I know full well that their body will not remain unchanged for life?

Yeah exactly, cept of course my wife is still hot! Well I think so.

That is, of course, all true and correct. But just because change is inevitable, that doesn't mean it couldn't or shouldn't be resisted or slowed down. A partner, who doesn't want to appear attractive to the other, isn't any better than a partner, who concentrates on the other's looks.

Why should I slather myself in "beauty" products just to look "attractive"? The person who uses make-up is less attractive than the one who doesn't use make-up.

And how do you resist ageing and other changes other than through the use of beauty products and cosmestic surgery, because exercise may keep the body fit but it doesn't slow the wrinkling, sagging and greying process in the least.

:D
I'm proposing the common decency for partners to remain as attractive as reasonably possible to each other.

Just what is "reasonable" anyway?

I know my boyfriend isn't the most attractive and he could lose some weight but I love him for what's inside and not what's on the outside.

I'm not slim either, rather average but he doesn't care.

People who put a lot of emphasis on appearance need to take a good long look in the mirror and think about what they might look like in twenty, thirty, forty years...

Beauty is finite.

The spirit is eternal.

The fact that you assume somebody must want to be THIN to be attractive to their partner is very telling. I want to be attractive to my partner, but fucked if I'm going to be with anybody who equates "attractive" with "must be smaller than size X." That's just as stupid as somebody who insists that their wife must get boobie implants or else she clearly doesn't want to be attractive to him.

Of course it's the partner who ultimately defines what is attractive. It's just that most men prefer thinner women, and therefore for most men, being attractive includes being thin. If your boyfriend/husband thinks you're attractive without being thin, good for you. Better yet, good for him.

Just like it's not my business to tell your boyfriend what he should consider attractive, it's not your business to tell it to me or other men.

And your Dad? How's he looking? Does he spend as much time on his appearance as your mother spends on hers?

He does hard physical work, so he stays naturally in good shape, but no, he doesn't deliberately take care of his appearance. I didn't say it doesn't work both ways, did I?

Then I guess it's all about how you define "reasonable."

I consider it unreasonable for a man to demand that his post-pregnancy wife slim down for his pleasure.

Yes. It's up to the couples to decide that. But how do you define post-pregnancy? Six months? A year? Ten years? Forever?

Who defines "reasonable"?
Just FYI, I happen to be overweight.

Yes, I remember seeing your picture in a photograph thread once. The couples define reasonable, and if they disagree severely, they shouldn't get married in the first place.

And marrying an overweight woman is entirely different from marrying a thin woman, who then becomes overweight. It is because if a man marries an overweight woman, he apparently likes fat girls, or at least doesn't consider weight a negative factor. When marrying a thin woman, the man presumably prefers thin women, and is understandably disappointed, if his wife changes in such a way.

I wonder how your boyfriend would react, if you suddenly dropped your weight to, say, 47kg. Ask him.

Why should I slather myself in "beauty" products just to look "attractive"? The person who uses make-up is less attractive than the one who doesn't use make-up.

I entirely agree! There's nothing worse than a really nice looking girl covered in make-up using those horrible eye liners and eye shadows and such! Ugh!

Beauty is finite.

The spirit is eternal.

Well, not really. A person's psyche may (and does) also change with time.

Yes, I remember seeing your picture in a photograph thread once. The couples define reasonable, and if they disagree severely, they shouldn't get married in the first place.

And marrying an overweight woman is entirely different from marrying a thin woman, who then becomes overweight. It is because if a man marries an overweight woman, he apparently likes fat girls, or at least doesn't consider weight a negative factor. When marrying a thin woman, the man presumably prefers thin women, and is understandably disappointed, if his wife changes in such a way.

I wonder how your boyfriend would react, if you suddenly dropped your weight to, say, 47kg. Ask him.

I did recently, and it would be ok with him.
Seriously, you desperately need to shed some shallowness and naivity. That kind of assumption might be cute in a 4-year-old girl (and even then I'd find it worrying), but it won't do for a human who wants to pass off as an adult.

Of course it's the partner who ultimately defines what is attractive. It's just that most men prefer thinner women, and therefore for most men, being attractive includes being thin. If your boyfriend/husband thinks you're attractive without being thin, good for you. Better yet, good for him.

I think you give "most men" far too little credit.


Just like it's not my business to tell your boyfriend what he should consider attractive, it's not your business to tell it to me or other men.

I don't particularly care what you consider attractive, so no worries there!


He does hard physical work, so he stays naturally in good shape, but no, he doesn't deliberately take care of his appearance. I didn't say it doesn't work both ways, did I?

Well gee whiz, chief, then it sounds like your parents' problems really aren't about your mom's weight at all. It sounds like your dad is choosing to be a jackass. The solution to this is not for your mother to change her body to cater to the desires of a jackass. The solution is for her to say, "Hey, Jackass. Knock it off." And for him to then knock it off.


Yes. It's up to the couples to decide that. But how do you define post-pregnancy? Six months? A year? Ten years? Forever?

Forever. Pregnancy causes physical changes in a woman's body that will last for the remainder of her life. The only way to undo many of these changes is through surgical methods.

For instance, a woman's breasts will never be the same after pregnancy as they were before. She could get implants or have a breast lift or something to change her breasts, but they aren't going to be that way naturally.

A woman's metabolism will, likewise, not be the same after pregnancy as it was before. A woman's body fat composition also normally changes after pregnancy. These are the normal, natural changes of a healthy female body.

Now, a woman could impose artificial changes on her body to try to force it to conform to the pre-pregnancy standard of beauty. But why should she have to? What kind of lame-ass loser would choose to find only pre-pregnant female bodies attractive, yet would also want to have children with his wife?


And marrying an overweight woman is entirely different from marrying a thin woman, who then becomes overweight. It is because if a man marries an overweight woman, he apparently likes fat girls, or at least doesn't consider weight a negative factor. When marrying a thin woman, the man presumably prefers thin women, and is understandably disappointed, if his wife changes in such a way.

Again, fuck that noise.

This only holds up if you think that a spouse has some kind of contractual obligation to keep their body looking a particular way indefinitely. And if you think that, then your love is pretty worthless from the get-go.

Why should I slather myself in "beauty" products just to look "attractive"? The person who uses make-up is less attractive than the one who doesn't use make-up.

And how do you resist ageing and other changes other than through the use of beauty products and cosmestic surgery, because exercise may keep the body fit but it doesn't slow the wrinkling, sagging and greying process in the least.

Apparently there are skin lotions that slow down wrinkling. Is that really such a bother, that you think it's unreasonable? If you smoke, stop it; smoking causes wrinkling. So does too much sunbathing. If you have many kids, it might cause a lot of sagging, but otherwise, using enough support should help there for quite a time. I myself have nothing against gray hairs, but dying your hair is one option.

Too much make-up is something between sad and amusing, but there's nothing wrong with a small touch of it.

Just what is "reasonable" anyway?

In my opinion? Those that I listed above, and exercise, and controlling one's eating of fattening foods. What matters to you is your boyfriend's opinion.

I did recently, and it would be ok with him.
Seriously, you desperately need to shed some shallowness and naivity. That kind of assumption might be cute in a 4-year-old girl (and even then I'd find it worrying), but it won't do for a human who wants to pass off as an adult.

Good for both of you. Whereas many men like thin women, and some others women, who have a little something on their waist, and yet others, who go for obese women, I honestly have never met a man, who doesn't care at all how much or little fat their women have.

So I'm shallow and naïve for acknowledging that many people pay attention to what their partners look like? Right...

I am in the camp of people who think it's wrong to lie about relationships outside of one's immediate pair bond (or group).

As long as everyone is open about things, there shouldn't be a problem with having sex outside of your pair bond (or group). If you criminalize the act, then you are implying a direct ownership of one body by another, which is ridiculous in the extreme.

The actual violation (to me) that occurs is one of dishonesty - and that is not a criminal act - it happens in a wide variety of ways every day, and everyone tells a lie sometime. What matters then in lying is who you lie to, and why. In a pair bond (or trusted group relationship), honesty is core to the bond working correctly. It is then up to the individuals involved to decide if they can live with one of them being a liar.

As for the state becoming involved and making it a crime - that's just bullshit.

Apparently there are skin lotions that slow down wrinkling. Is that really such a bother, that you think it's unreasonable? If you smoke, stop it; smoking causes wrinkling. So does too much sunbathing. If you have many kids, it might cause a lot of sagging, but otherwise, using enough support should help there for quite a time. I myself have nothing against gray hairs, but dying your hair is one option.

In my opinion? Those that I listed above, and exercise, and controlling one's eating of fattening foods. What matters to you is your boyfriend's opinion.

You want all that from your future wife?... You'll never marry :( How sad

I am in the camp of people who think it's wrong to lie about relationships outside of one's immediate pair bond (or group).

As long as everyone is open about things, there shouldn't be a problem with having sex outside of your pair bond (or group). If you criminalize the act, then you are implying a direct ownership of one body by another, which is ridiculous in the extreme.

The actual violation (to me) that occurs is one of dishonesty - and that is not a criminal act - it happens in a wide variety of ways every day, and everyone tells a lie sometime. What matters then in lying is who you lie to, and why. In a pair bond (or trusted group relationship), honesty is core to the bond working correctly. It is then up to the individuals involved to decide if they can live with one of them being a liar.

As for the state becoming involved and making it a crime - that's just bullshit.

The more I'm on this forum, the more I find myself agreeing with you. Scary, huh?

The more I'm on this forum, the more I find myself agreeing with you. Scary, huh?

What's scary is that even when I post in what most people think is a rational manner, you can always count on someone to post a kneejerk response.

I'm waiting for Gauthier to respond to the post you agreed with in the following manner:

"Oh, you evil rotten guy! You just posted that because you think Muslims are teh 3Bil!"

Or for the Nazz to post:

"oh, that's bullshit - you have no fucking credibility"

Good for both of you. Whereas many men like thin women, and some others women, who have a little something on their waist, and yet others, who go for obese women, I honestly have never met a man, who doesn't care at all how much or little fat their women have.

So I'm shallow and naïve for acknowledging that many people pay attention to what their partners look like? Right...

Actually, I have one example right here who doesn't give a damn about how much or how little fat is on me. Same as I don't care how much or how little fat is on him. and do you want to know why? Cause we love each other.
That does not mean that I wouldn't try and talk to him if his weight became unhealthy, same as he would talk to me if he felt mine was.

And yes, you are shallow and naive for assuming that people choose to stay with their partners for what they look like. I'm not saying that some idiots don't, but the majority doesn't.
Do you think I'd leave my BF if he ever decides to cut his hair? Or if it starts falling out? Or starts biting his fingernails? I wouldn't be particularly happy about either, but his looks will never be a reason for me to leave him.

The more I'm on this forum, the more I find myself agreeing with you. Scary, huh?

Rest assured that you're not the only one who agreed with that post :)

I am in the camp of people who think it's wrong to lie about relationships outside of one's immediate pair bond (or group).

As long as everyone is open about things, there shouldn't be a problem with having sex outside of your pair bond (or group). If you criminalize the act, then you are implying a direct ownership of one body by another, which is ridiculous in the extreme.

The actual violation (to me) that occurs is one of dishonesty - and that is not a criminal act - it happens in a wide variety of ways every day, and everyone tells a lie sometime. What matters then in lying is who you lie to, and why. In a pair bond (or trusted group relationship), honesty is core to the bond working correctly. It is then up to the individuals involved to decide if they can live with one of them being a liar.

As for the state becoming involved and making it a crime - that's just bullshit.

Wow... there must be snowball fights in hell right now. I agree with you.

What's scary is that even when I post in what most people think is a rational manner, you can always count on someone to post a kneejerk response.

I'm waiting for Gauthier to respond to the post you agreed with in the following manner:

"Oh, you evil rotten guy! You just posted that because you think Muslims are teh 3Bil!"

Or for the Nazz to post:

"oh, that's bullshit - you have no fucking credibility"

You do tend to have a generally anti-Muslim slant in pretty much any thread about Muslims. Granted you're not going on about their language sounding like "mahakanakalakah" which I personally find pretty amusing given that American English of my generation tends to consist of varying levels of "fuck, y'all, like, um...,you know, fuck," but I dunno.

You do tend to have a generally anti-Muslim slant in pretty much any thread about Muslims. Granted you're not going on about their language sounding like "mahakanakalakah" which I personally find pretty amusing given that American English of my generation tends to consist of varying levels of "fuck, y'all, like, um...,you know, fuck," but I dunno.

I only have a thing against radical militant Islamic groups, and anyone who is their apologist or denier.

Islam itself is no more of a problem than Christianity, or Scientology, or Buddhism.

When you start blowing up abortion clinics in the name of God, blowing up gay bars in the name of God, or flying airliners into buildings in the name of God, or strapping bombs on children and blowing them up in the name of God, I don't care if you're a radical militant Christian, or a radical militant Muslim - someone needs to kick your ass.

And I don't want anyone to tell me what God to pray to (I made my own choice), and I don't want anyone to tell the non-praying types to get on their knees, and I don't want anyone to force all children at a school to comply with the eating requirements of a few religious zealots.

Keep your religion at home please. In your house, or in your place of worship. Out of our public buildings.

And keep (Christian or otherwise) your religious bullshit out of the courts and legislatures. No Sharia for me, thank you. And I don't want to see the Ten Commandments up on the courthouse wall.

It just seems that nowadays, militant Islamic groups have most of the public business of violent asshattery.

Heck, even the stuff in Northern Ireland is drawing to a close - note the recent agreement there.

...

It just seems that nowadays, militant Islamic groups have most of the public business of violent asshattery.

Heck, even the stuff in Northern Ireland is drawing to a close - note the recent agreement there.

I agree with the rest, and I'm most certainly not making any apologies for anyone, but while yes, Northern Ireland is not really terrorist country any more, there are more than a handful "forgotten" wars and civil wars all around the globe that have precious little to do with Muslims.
The reason Muslims seem so disproportionately active in the terror business is that you will get to hear about it. You're not very likely to hear about a few hundred people killed in Burundi, terrorist attacks on the population in Uganda, the cummunist uprising in Nepal, Tamil rebels, or children soldiers wiping out entire villages in Cote d'Ivoire.

It's a matter of perception, I'm afraid.

I agree with the rest, and I'm most certainly not making any apologies for anyone, but while yes, Northern Ireland is not really terrorist country any more, there are more than a handful "forgotten" wars and civil wars all around the globe that have precious little to do with Muslims.
The reason Muslims seem so disproportionately active in the terror business is that you will get to hear about it. You're not very likely to hear about a few hundred people killed in Burundi, terrorist attacks on the population in Uganda, the cummunist uprising in Nepal, Tamil rebels, or children soldiers wiping out entire villages in Cote d'Ivoire.

It's a matter of perception, I'm afraid.

That's because they keep their squabbles to themselves.

Heck, the only reason NATO (and NOT the UN) got involved in Kosovo is that it was "too close for comfort" for a lot of NATO nations.

Rwanda, on the other hand, was ignored - and look what happened there.

I'm not big on the idea of either the UN, NATO, or the US being a global police force - so if people are massacring each other while we argue about sports games, that's perfectly fine for me - it's the way history has always been and that's fine.

When they start intruding on us in a violent manner - that's when it's a problem.

Well gee whiz, chief, then it sounds like your parents' problems really aren't about your mom's weight at all. It sounds like your dad is choosing to be a jackass. The solution to this is not for your mother to change her body to cater to the desires of a jackass. The solution is for her to say, "Hey, Jackass. Knock it off." And for him to then knock it off.

I know he's being a jackass. I just think that my mother's weight is one of the main reasons to why he is that way, because that's what he is mostly complaining about. There are many possible solutions to the problem, including divorce, telling him to STFU, waiting him to accept it and so on. I just believe that the solution, that would make everyone the most happy in the long run, would be for my mother to lose weight, even if it goes against your principle of being nice to idiots.

Forever. Pregnancy causes physical changes in a woman's body that will last for the remainder of her life. The only way to undo many of these changes is through surgical methods.

For instance, a woman's breasts will never be the same after pregnancy as they were before. She could get implants or have a breast lift or something to change her breasts, but they aren't going to be that way naturally.

A woman's metabolism will, likewise, not be the same after pregnancy as it was before. A woman's body fat composition also normally changes after pregnancy. These are the normal, natural changes of a healthy female body.

Now, a woman could impose artificial changes on her body to try to force it to conform to the pre-pregnancy standard of beauty. But why should she have to? What kind of lame-ass loser would choose to find only pre-pregnant female bodies attractive, yet would also want to have children with his wife?

Do those changes make her unable to lose weight forever? if not, fuck your noise for a change. As I already stated, surgically reshaping her body back to the original is beyond reasonable in my opinion, so I don't know why you're still going on about sagging tits. And if it's so impossible for women to lose weight after giving birth, how come do I know many very thin 40-50 year old women with two, even three kids?

Again, fuck that noise.

This only holds up if you think that a spouse has some kind of contractual obligation to keep their body looking a particular way indefinitely. And if you think that, then your love is pretty worthless from the get-go.

So you think that once you're married, it's OK to stop caring about your appearance at all. Does that only apply to looks, or would it be fine if your boyfriend suddenly stopped showering and washing his teeth?

You want all that from your future wife?... You'll never marry How sad

Actually, the majority of women of my age do most of that (except too many of them smoke), so my chances of marrying would be smaller if I specifically looked for a girl, who didn't.

Is it really so much to ask for a girl, who doesn't smoke, wears a bra, and eats less than me? I mean, really?

And yes, you are shallow and naive for assuming that people choose to stay with their partners for what they look like. I'm not saying that some idiots don't, but the majority doesn't.

I never said that they 'choose to stay' based on looks. In fact, I said the exact opposite, "most men probably won't cheat or divorce because of it" or something like that.

I'm merely saying that people do appreciate it when their partners look attractive, and if they become unattractive, that can easily have the opposite effect.

I'm merely saying that people do appreciate it when their partners look attractive, and if they become unattractive, that can easily have the opposite effect.

Well, IMHO, Eva Braun wasn't all that much to look at, but maybe that's all that Hitler thought he could get. I mean, he was the Fuhrer, and could get anyone he liked, but geez....

I know he's being a jackass. I just think that my mother's weight is one of the main reasons to why he is that way, because that's what he is mostly complaining about. There are many possible solutions to the problem, including divorce, telling him to STFU, waiting him to accept it and so on. I just believe that the solution, that would make everyone the most happy in the long run, would be for my mother to lose weight, even if it goes against your principle of being nice to idiots.



Do those changes make her unable to lose weight forever? if not, fuck your noise for a change. As I already stated, surgically reshaping her body back to the original is beyond reasonable in my opinion, so I don't know why you're still going on about sagging tits. And if it's so impossible for women to lose weight after giving birth, how come do I know many very thin 40-50 year old women with two, even three kids?

It does. Read some medical journals on it, the phenomenon is well-documented.
And it's also well-documented that not every woman will show the same effects. It's a bit like saying "Post-natal depression is a hoax, I know many women who were perfectly happy after having had a child".


So you think that once you're married, it's OK to stop caring about your appearance at all. Does that only apply to looks, or would it be fine if your boyfriend suddenly stopped showering and washing his teeth?

You've got no clue at all how many men do that, do you?


Actually, the majority of women of my age do most of that (except too many of them smoke), so my chances of marrying would be smaller if I specifically looked for a girl, who didn't.

Is it really so much to ask for a girl, who doesn't smoke, wears a bra, and eats less than me? I mean, really?

I think if you ever find a girl who actually likes you with an attitude like that, you should hope and pray she never develops a good self-esteem or even a brain.


I never said that they 'choose to stay' based on looks. In fact, I said the exact opposite, "most men probably won't cheat or divorce because of it" or something like that.

I'm merely saying that people do appreciate it when their partners look attractive, and if they become unattractive, that can easily have the opposite effect.

I'll let you in on a little secret : Love is blind.
Looks can sometimes be important for falling in love, but two people who love each other often don't even notice the other's looks the way the rest of the world does.
It's when they stop loving each other that looks are the first thing they criticise. My mom (who literally still could work as a model, tall, slim, blonde, beautiful skin) got told by my father that she looks like a fat pig in a bikini and that he won't go out with her unless she's wearing make-up.

And I'll tell you something else : Even if your mom lost weight, it will not change the situation between your parents. Your father will just find something else to give out about.

Well, IMHO, Eva Braun wasn't all that much to look at, but maybe that's all that Hitler thought he could get. I mean, he was the Fuhrer, and could get anyone he liked, but geez....

I don't know, I think she looked OK. Besides, I don't think Hitler would have been the cheating/switching kind of guy anyway. He seemed to have high morals (at least as long as it wasn't about stuff like killing lots of people).

I don't know, I think she looked OK. Besides, I don't think Hitler would have been the cheating/switching kind of guy anyway. He seemed to have high morals (at least as long as it wasn't about stuff like killing lots of people).

And yet, he married her only days before killing himself. That's a nice way of getting out of a possible divorce, you're right.

And yet, he married her only days before killing himself. That's a nice way of getting out of a possible divorce, you're right.

The best part is that she didn't get half his stuff, because he killed her too (after wasting all of Berlin and most of Germany).

Apparently there are skin lotions that slow down wrinkling. Is that really such a bother, that you think it's unreasonable? If you smoke, stop it; smoking causes wrinkling. So does too much sunbathing. If you have many kids, it might cause a lot of sagging, but otherwise, using enough support should help there for quite a time. I myself have nothing against gray hairs, but dying your hair is one option.

I believe we earn the right to have grey hair.

I see no reason to die or to hide your wrinkles. We get old for a reason; it's natural.

And yes, I find using skin lotions to be a bother unless I am taking care of really dry patches (ever seen scaly human flesh?) on my feet.

Too much make-up is something between sad and amusing, but there's nothing wrong with a small touch of it.

There is plenty wrong with wearing a 'small touch' because some of us don't like make-up and there are plenty of guys who like girls make-up free, like my boyfriend for example. He loves that I don't wear any make-up.

His sister was told by two ex-boyfriends to wear less make-up.

In my opinion? Those that I listed above, and exercise, and controlling one's eating of fattening foods. What matters to you is your boyfriend's opinion.

Exercise is reasonable, which is why I'm getting a DDR set.

And I know his opinion matters to me, I don't need someone else to tell me.

So you think that once you're married, it's OK to stop caring about your appearance at all. Does that only apply to looks, or would it be fine if your boyfriend suddenly stopped showering and washing his teeth?

Hygiene is the basics. If you have good hygiene there is no reason to use other beauty products. Body wash does a good job of keeping the skin looking nice, and a simple 2-in-1 shampoo is good for the hair. You don't need anything fancy.

Not caring about your appearance to me means that you don't go all out on the bells and whistles, aka, no make-up etc.

Is it really so much to ask for a girl, who doesn't smoke, wears a bra, and eats less than me? I mean, really?

Why does it matter if she wears a bra? I mean, when it comes to sex, all clothing comes off anyway.

The best part is that she didn't get half his stuff, because he killed her too (after wasting all of Berlin and most of Germany).

Well, there wasn't much left. And in fairness, there's only so much you can do with half a German shepard....

It does. Read some medical journals on it, the phenomenon is well-documented.
And it's also well-documented that not every woman will show the same effects. It's a bit like saying "Post-natal depression is a hoax, I know many women who were perfectly happy after having had a child".

I will.

You've got no clue at all how many men do that, do you?

And it doesn't/wouldn't bother you in the least?


I think if you ever find a girl who actually likes you with an attitude like that, you should hope and pray she never develops a good self-esteem or even a brain.

So you think that men shouldn't have any criteria as to what kind of women they date, but should just gladly take whoever first offers herself? The way a woman takes care of her body, also reflects on her personality. If she doesn't care about herself that much, how could I expect her to care about me?

And I'll tell you something else : Even if your mom lost weight, it will not change the situation between your parents. Your father will just find something else to give out about.

Hopefully we will see.

And it doesn't/wouldn't bother you in the least?

It did, and I left. Simple as that.


So you think that men shouldn't have any criteria as to what kind of women they date, but should just gladly take whoever first offers herself? The way a woman takes care of her body, also reflects on her personality. If she doesn't care about herself that much, how could I expect her to care about me?

You misunderstand me. I wasn't talking about men in general, because most men know better than to try and tell a woman how to take care of herself.
I was talking about you in particular.


Hopefully we will see.

It's a simple thing, really. If he doesn't love her enough to respect her now, how much do you think he'll respect her once she's obliged to his whim?

You misunderstand me. I wasn't talking about men in general, because most men know better than to try and tell a woman how to take care of herself.
I was talking about you in particular.

If a guy is telling a woman how to dress, etc., how to wear her hair, when to lose weight, what dress size she should be down to, etc., the woman needs to leave.

Permanently.

Also, if all he is going on is her appearance to fuel how he feels about her, she needs to leave.

On a long enough timescale, we all end up looking like decrepit bags of skin.

I believe we earn the right to have grey hair.

I see no reason to die or to hide your wrinkles. We get old for a reason; it's natural.

And yes, I find using skin lotions to be a bother unless I am taking care of really dry patches (ever seen scaly human flesh?) on my feet.

I had a nasty treatment of acne medication when I was in the army. I know a lot more than I'd like of dry skin.

There is plenty wrong with wearing a 'small touch' because some of us don't like make-up and there are plenty of guys who like girls make-up free, like my boyfriend for example. He loves that I don't wear any make-up.

His sister was told by two ex-boyfriends to wear less make-up.

Hey, whatever floats your boat. I don't require make-up, I just don't have anything against it if it's done well and in moderation.

Hygiene is the basics. If you have good hygiene there is no reason to use other beauty products. Body wash does a good job of keeping the skin looking nice, and a simple 2-in-1 shampoo is good for the hair. You don't need anything fancy.

Not caring about your appearance to me means that you don't go all out on the bells and whistles, aka, no make-up etc.

But you didn't answer my question. Would severe lack in hygiene make your boyfriend seem less attractive? Not to the point of you leaving him for it, but at all?

Why does it matter if she wears a bra? I mean, when it comes to sex, all clothing comes off anyway.

Because like I said earlier, adequate support will keep the breasts from becoming saggy for a longer time. It doesn't really matter to me that much, but I don't see a reason why any woman wouldn't wear a bra most of the time anyway.

Because like I said earlier, adequate support will keep the breasts from becoming saggy for a longer time. It doesn't really matter to me that much, but I don't see a reason why any woman wouldn't wear a bra most of the time anyway.

Bruises.
For example.

Exercise is reasonable, which is why I'm getting a DDR set.

Great choice! I'm so glad I'm hearing about DDR even on these forums! :) Are you getting PS pads or PC pads? I'd go for PC, mainly because Stepmania is free (and open-source) and you can play Stepmania Online. Would you like to have a match with me someday? (It's true I haven't danced for almost half a year now but I still think I could do good ;) )

It did, and I left. Simple as that.

Thank you.

You misunderstand me. I wasn't talking about men in general, because most men know better than to try and tell a woman how to take care of herself.
I was talking about you in particular.

It doesn't matter who you're talking about. You're still saying that my personal taste in women is somehow wrong, and in order to be a better person, I'd better succumb to the opinions women, without any right to have a say on the habits of even my hypothetical wife.

It's a simple thing, really. If he doesn't love her enough to respect her now, how much do you think he'll respect her once she's obliged to his whim?

So resistance creates respect? To be respected by a jerk, you have to be a jerk too?

Did you notice that you're contradicting yourself? You're saying that my mother should stand up for herself in order to get my father's respect, but you also urge me to shut the hell up, if my wife does something that I don't agree with. How exactly would following your advice make me gain the respect of women, if it includes obliging to their whims without resistance?

It doesn't matter who you're talking about. You're still saying that my personal taste in women is somehow wrong, and in order to be a better person, I'd better succumb to the opinions women, without any right to have a say on the habits of even my hypothetical wife.

No. I'm saying you'll be lucky to find a wife.


So resistance creates respect? To be respected by a jerk, you have to be a jerk too?

Did you notice that you're contradicting yourself? You're saying that my mother should stand up for herself in order to get my father's respect, but you also urge me to shut the hell up, if my wife does something that I don't agree with. How exactly would following your advice make me gain the respect of women, if it includes obliging to their whims without resistance?

Selfrespect creates respect.
If you can't see the difference in standing up for being yourself, and demanding that the rest of the world behaves like you want them to, you have a more serious problem than even I assumed.

I'm not contradicting myself in the least. Be who you are and what you are and let others be who and what they are and respect them for it.

Adultery is disgusting, immoral and I would hate for it to happen to me. Personally I can't imagine being able to cope.
But legality? Punishment? It's not the government's role to get involved in this sort of thing. They have more important things to do. Like, for example, running the country.

I agree the Government needs to stay out of matters of adultery. That includes when the cheating spouse is shot by the one he/she cheated on.

Selfrespect creates respect.
If you can't see the difference in standing up for being yourself, and demanding that the rest of the world behaves like you want them to, you have a more serious problem than even I assumed.

I'm not contradicting myself in the least. Be who you are and what you are and let others be who and what they are and respect them for it.

What I can't see is how self-respect would disable you from respecting other people's wishes, or how accepting yourself as you are would disable you from improving yourself.

We already agreed, that a successful relationship requires lots and lots of talking. Isn't it then in everyone's best interest, if I point out whatever things are bothering me in my partner? It doesn't matter whether they're about her personality, behavior or appearance. Wouldn't she be a selfish prick, if she didn't at least try to rid herself of those things? Hell, I'd do the same for her.

Now then, if she refuses to cooperate, would I really be a bad person for leaving a woman, who stubbornly refuses to respect my wishes? You yourself left a man, who let his hygiene go bad. Although I don't know the details about how hygienic he was when you met, and how much did you try to change him when he let himself go, but I'd say it's pretty much the same thing.

I agree the Government needs to stay out of matters of adultery. That includes when the cheating spouse is shot by the one he/she cheated on.

How is murdering someone because they're an asshole okay?

I know he's being a jackass. I just think that my mother's weight is one of the main reasons to why he is that way, because that's what he is mostly complaining about. There are many possible solutions to the problem, including divorce, telling him to STFU, waiting him to accept it and so on. I just believe that the solution, that would make everyone the most happy in the long run, would be for my mother to lose weight, even if it goes against your principle of being nice to idiots.

As long as you don't consider YOUR MOTHER'S HAPPINESS, then yes, I'm sure that's true. And, of course, if YOU can be happy knowing that your father treats your mother like crap, then I'd say that makes your happiness about as important as your dad's.


Do those changes make her unable to lose weight forever? if not, fuck your noise for a change.

Unable to lose weight? Of course not. But they do mean that 1) it's harder for her to lose weight, and 2) even losing weight won't necessarily get her body back into the particular shape it had before she was pregnant, and 3) it's not really healthy for her (or any woman) to be actively trying to make her body look exactly the way it did before she was pregnant. It's not attainable, and when people try to force their bodies to meet unattainable standards then badness ensues.


As I already stated, surgically reshaping her body back to the original is beyond reasonable in my opinion, so I don't know why you're still going on about sagging tits.

You seem to think that it's "more reasonable" to demand radical changes in diet and exercise in order to force one's body to conform to a given standard, yet for some reason you think surgery is "unreasonable." Considering that 98% of diet/exercise plans that have been studied by medical doctors have been shown to FAIL within 5 years at the very most, I'd say that's pretty bunk.


And if it's so impossible for women to lose weight after giving birth, how come do I know many very thin 40-50 year old women with two, even three kids?

I never said it was impossible. 40-50 year old women are just as capable of having eating disorders as younger women are. 40-50 year old women are just as capable of inflicted unhealthy practices upon their bodies in order to make themselves look the way other people want them to look.

And, of course, there are variations in body type among 40-50 year old women just like there are among younger women. Some women are just naturally slim, and they will always be that way. It's relatively rare, compared to the average female body type, but that doesn't mean there are no women who are that way. For them, remaining slim will simply happen. For other women, it won't. Sadly, the women who are not naturally slim are informed that THEY are unhealthy for allowing their body to maintain its normal set-point, and that the way to be "healthy" is to force their bodies to maintain a weight that is not normal or natural for them.

I simply think it's sad and pathetic that ANY women are doing this, and particularly sad that we give women the message that their bodies are still supposed to look like 20-year-old bombshells even after giving birth to three kids.

The one-shape-fits-all notion of female beauty is juvenile and lame, and it makes me sad whenever somebody with such stupid notions is cruel enough to get married and inflict themselves on another human being.


So you think that once you're married, it's OK to stop caring about your appearance at all. Does that only apply to looks, or would it be fine if your boyfriend suddenly stopped showering and washing his teeth?

You seem unable to distinguish between health and looks. It's completely possible for a person to be in superb physical health while still not remotely fitting the "ideal" body type in terms of mainstream beauty. Indeed, women who are "overweight" by our current standards actually enjoy LONGER life times than women who are the "ideal weight" that they are supposed to maintain.

Eating healthy food and getting physical exercise are great for everybody. But MOST PEOPLE who maintain healthy diet and exercise WILL STILL NOT LOOK like the idealized beauty images that are thrown at us. So why should we expect them to? That's just lame.


Is it really so much to ask for a girl, who doesn't smoke, wears a bra, and eats less than me? I mean, really?

Her smoking directly impacts your health. I'd say it's perfectly fair to restrict your dating pool to non-smokers, if that's what you want to do.

But the bra and eating things are lame. It's your business if you want to dictate what your partner wears and eats, but I don't know a single girl of substance who would put up with that crap for one tiny instant. I'm sure you can find many girls who will submit to your wishes, since there are a lot of insecure and uncertain people out there and 50% of them are female. But it would be much better for you and for your future partners if you got over your control issues BEFORE you started dating.


I never said that they 'choose to stay' based on looks. In fact, I said the exact opposite, "most men probably won't cheat or divorce because of it" or something like that.

I'm merely saying that people do appreciate it when their partners look attractive, and if they become unattractive, that can easily have the opposite effect.
Relationships are not movies. Real-life people have wrinkles, gain weight, fart, pluck hairs, floss, and all sorts of other "unattractive" things.

If you are married, then you are in a relationship with a real, live person. If you want somebody who won't gain weight, who won't get old and wrinkled, who won't sometimes have dry elbows or leg hair or smelly pits, then DON'T GET MARRIED.

Corrected:

If you are married, then you are in a relationship with a real, live person. If you want somebody who won't gain weight, who won't get old and wrinkled, who won't sometimes have dry elbows or leg hair or smelly pits, then BUY A BLOW-UP DOLL

If a guy is telling a woman how to dress, etc., how to wear her hair, when to lose weight, what dress size she should be down to, etc., the woman needs to leave.

Permanently.

Yep. It's one of the most classic red flags of an abusive relationship.

If he's trying to tell you what to wear, eat, etc, don't walk away from the relationship...RUN.

Corrected:
I stand corrected. Right on. :D

Yep. It's one of the most classic red flags of an abusive relationship.

If he's trying to tell you what to wear, eat, etc, don't walk away from the relationship...RUN.

Don't forget alienating her from her friends and family.

We already agreed, that a successful relationship requires lots and lots of talking. Isn't it then in everyone's best interest, if I point out whatever things are bothering me in my partner?

Communicating with your partner is good. Expecting your partner to listen to you is good.

Expecting your partner to do everything you ask of them is bad. Expecting your partner to be willing to do whatever it takes to make themselves look the way YOU want them to look is bad.


It doesn't matter whether they're about her personality, behavior or appearance. Wouldn't she be a selfish prick, if she didn't at least try to rid herself of those things?

No. Why should your standards for her appearance or personality be more important to her than her own?

Nobody is going to be exactly the way you want them to be. And nobody should try to be. That would be fucked up and unhealthy.


Now then, if she refuses to cooperate, would I really be a bad person for leaving a woman, who stubbornly refuses to respect my wishes?

"Respecting your wishes" does not mean "doing everything you ask."

Perhaps you wish her to get a perm. She does not want to get a perm. Guess what? It's her fucking hair. It's not "disrespectful" of her to think that she gets to choose how she wears her hair.

Perhaps you wish her to lose 10 pounds. She does not want to lose 10 pounds. Guess what? It's her fucking body. It's not "disrespectful" of her to think that she gets to choose how she spends her time or how she eats.

Perhaps you wish her to wear red, because you think she looks better in red. She thinks she looks like crap in red, and doesn't feel like wearing it. Guess what? It's her fucking clothes. It's not "disrespectful" of her to think that she gets to choose what clothes she wants to wear.

If you get together with somebody with the idea that you are going to "improve them," you're fucked from the beginning. Get off your high horse and quit assuming that what YOU want is an improvement for them.

It's perfectly fair to offer your opinions to your partner, particularly if they ask. It's not remotely fair to think that they must "respect" you by always going along with YOUR opinion.


You yourself left a man, who let his hygiene go bad. Although I don't know the details about how hygienic he was when you met, and how much did you try to change him when he let himself go, but I'd say it's pretty much the same thing.
Hygiene issues are more like smoking, in that the other person's health impacts your own.

For instance, if my partner never washes, he is increasing MY risk of catching an illness from him. In particular, because my partner and I are sexually active, his self-grooming behavior can directly impact my health and safety.

Expecting one's partner to maintain a minimum level of cleanliness is quite different from expecting to be able to dictate their hairstyle or wardrobe.

Great choice! I'm so glad I'm hearing about DDR even on these forums! :) Are you getting PS pads or PC pads? I'd go for PC, mainly because Stepmania is free (and open-source) and you can play Stepmania Online. Would you like to have a match with me someday? (It's true I haven't danced for almost half a year now but I still think I could do good ;) )

We'd be getting for PS2 since the PC pads wouldn't work given the limited layout of our 1-bedroom apartment. We want to do two-player since this is for both me and my boyfriend.

If we did get Stepmania, I'll concede the match to you since I was born with two left feet. :)

The punishment shouldn't be criminal, it should be a civil penalty. The cheating spouse should be able to divorce and get 75% of the joint assets or more and not have to pay any kind of alimony. Plus the cheater should have to wear a scarlet A on his/her clothing for a year or so. Nothing wrong with goint old school. Plus it will make it easier to pick out the slutty women in the bar.

So how do you feel about loaning money and modern credit and banking institutions?

What? Debt can break families just as easily if not more so. Should it be illegal to lend and loan money?
Ursury is un-Islamic and most modern banking relies on ursury, so if Soviestan is a good Muslim, it's highly unlikely he will approve of most modern credit systems, or indeed, any banking institution that relies on ursury.

I don't find it any less ridiculous then someone saying some other form of family is ideal.
There is only one ideal kind of family, a healthy one to be specific. Can the family type you described be a healthy one? Yes. Is a family of such a type necessarily healthy? No. Need a family be of that type to be a healthy one? No.

In essence your description of an ideal family, lumps in non-ideal families while excluding ideal families, which is somewhat ridiculous to put it kindly.

A vast majority of women, who were thin at the time of getting married, gain a lot of weight quickly afterwards, or at least after their first child. This is a major source of grievance for married men, although I don't know how much it contributes to adultery rates.
More accurately spousal weight-gain is a source of grievance for married arseholes, some of whom happen to be men.

Hell pity any person dumb enough to marry the kind of jerk who gets aggrieved over the state of their waistline, most particularly if some real challenge arises like paralysis or having half their face taken off in an auto accident. As bad as cheating is, intending for better or worse to actually mean for better and for better and fuck off you hag if you get fat, is hardly much, if any, better, and is in fact quite simply arsehattery on a monumental scale.

Ursury is un-Islamic and most modern banking relies on ursury, so if Soviestan is a good Muslim, it's highly unlikely he will approve of most modern credit systems, or indeed, any banking institution that relies on ursury.

Can't get vaccinated, either.

http://www.missionislam.com/health/immunisationislam.htm

What I can't see is how self-respect would disable you from respecting other people's wishes, or how accepting yourself as you are would disable you from improving yourself.

We already agreed, that a successful relationship requires lots and lots of talking. Isn't it then in everyone's best interest, if I point out whatever things are bothering me in my partner? It doesn't matter whether they're about her personality, behavior or appearance. Wouldn't she be a selfish prick, if she didn't at least try to rid herself of those things? Hell, I'd do the same for her.

Now then, if she refuses to cooperate, would I really be a bad person for leaving a woman, who stubbornly refuses to respect my wishes? You yourself left a man, who let his hygiene go bad. Although I don't know the details about how hygienic he was when you met, and how much did you try to change him when he let himself go, but I'd say it's pretty much the same thing.

You don't seem to get the difference between communicating and bullying.
It's perfectly ok to tell your partner if they're doing something you don't agree with. It's respectless to the extreme to expect him or her to change for you. Expecting that would make you a selfish prick beyond all hope.
A relationship is NOT about one partner doing everything to try and please the other. It's about two people loving who the other IS.

If you really tried to bully her into complying with your ideas on how she should look and behave, you wouldn't be a prick for leaving her. She'd be an idiot for staying.

You don't seem to get the difference between communicating and bullying.
It's perfectly ok to tell your partner if they're doing something you don't agree with. It's respectless to the extreme to expect him or her to change for you. Expecting that would make you a selfish prick beyond all hope.
A relationship is NOT about one partner doing everything to try and please the other. It's about two people loving who the other IS.

If you really tried to bully her into complying with your ideas on how she should look and behave, you wouldn't be a prick for leaving her. She'd be an idiot for staying.

I agree.

It's one thing to say to your partner that they need to wear deodorant because their armpits smell like rancid leftovers or that they should go to the doctor if they haven't been in a while. Or to ask the person to blow their nose instead of just sniffing...

Can't get vaccinated, either.

http://www.missionislam.com/health/immunisationislam.htm
Bullshit. Some Muslims believe that vaccinations are un-Islamic, some Christians believe that God literally created the earth about 6000 years ago in 6 days, and that dinosaurs are a hoax by Satan, or scientists (which in their opinion amounts to the same thing).

Vaccinations are un-Islamic, only in the way believing dinosaurs once walked the earth is un-Christian. Ursuary is however un-Islamic, in the way not believing Jesus is the son of God sent to redeem man from his sins is un-Christian.

Bullshit. Some Muslims believe that vaccinations are un-Islamic, some Christians believe that God literally created the earth about 6000 years ago in 6 days, and that dinosaurs are a hoax by Satan, or scientists (which in their opinion amounts to the same thing).

Vaccinations are un-Islamic, only in the way believing dinosaurs once walked the earth is un-Christian. Ursuary is however un-Islamic, in the way not believing Jesus is the son of God sent to redeem man from his sins is un-Christian.

Why is usury un-Islamic but for some reason vaccinations are not? Same with the Christian examples. I never got why some of the religious rules are legitimate today, but other rules from the same religion are now all of a sudden obsolete. When did god show up and clarify the rules?

Ursury is un-Islamic and most modern banking relies on ursury, so if Soviestan is a good Muslim, it's highly unlikely he will approve of most modern credit systems, or indeed, any banking institution that relies on ursury.
Indeed, and I'm waiting for him to say he's against banking institutions which does not rely on interest as well.

When did god show up and clarify the rules?

August 23rd last year. Didn't you get the memo? :confused:

As long as you don't consider YOUR MOTHER'S HAPPINESS, then yes, I'm sure that's true. And, of course, if YOU can be happy knowing that your father treats your mother like crap, then I'd say that makes your happiness about as important as your dad's.

I do consider her happiness, and I seriously think she would be happier if she were thinner. What else would you suggest? That she'd ignore my dad, in which case she'd be fat and sad? Or divorce, in which case she'd be fat, sad and alone?

Or maybe for her to tell my dad to give her a break? That's the method she's been trying so far, and the results have been imperfect. She has started working on losing her weight recently, so let's wait for results on that one.

Unable to lose weight? Of course not. But they do mean that 1) it's harder for her to lose weight, and 2) even losing weight won't necessarily get her body back into the particular shape it had before she was pregnant, and 3) it's not really healthy for her (or any woman) to be actively trying to make her body look exactly the way it did before she was pregnant. It's not attainable, and when people try to force their bodies to meet unattainable standards then badness ensues.

OK, show me a quote of me saying that the woman's body should be exactly like it was before pregnancy. I don't remember saying it. Simply losing the extra weight - or at least most of it - she put on during pregnancy is all I ask for. I'm quite aware of the irreversable changes that happen during pregnancy, and I'm not expecting miracles.

But the bra and eating things are lame. It's your business if you want to dictate what your partner wears and eats, but I don't know a single girl of substance who would put up with that crap for one tiny instant. I'm sure you can find many girls who will submit to your wishes, since there are a lot of insecure and uncertain people out there and 50% of them are female. But it would be much better for you and for your future partners if you got over your control issues BEFORE you started dating.

*snipped lots of other similar stuff from Bottle and Cabra West*


Now you're kind of missing the point. It's not like I'd pick a random girl off the street and then start forcing her into my mold. No, I'd select a girl who fits my ideal in the first place. Seeing as those criteria of mine are not very exclusive (and I don't even care about that bra part all that much), it's not unreasonably hard to find a girl, who meets them.

The problem comes when I've met and married such a girl, and she then begins to change herself. Wouldn't it be only natural of me to try to resist the change as much as I could? I'm not the kind of person who 'dictates' stuff to others anyway, but I sure as hell would voice my opinion.

Hygiene issues are more like smoking, in that the other person's health impacts your own.

For instance, if my partner never washes, he is increasing MY risk of catching an illness from him. In particular, because my partner and I are sexually active, his self-grooming behavior can directly impact my health and safety.

Expecting one's partner to maintain a minimum level of cleanliness is quite different from expecting to be able to dictate their hairstyle or wardrobe.

If you have a strong immunity system, and your partner isn't literally covered in shit, it's not that big of a health risk. It's just very unattractive. In moderation, bad hygiene is actually good for health, as it improves the immunity system.

Adultry can't be controlled... And its not like it would be easy to prove

Adultry can't be controlled... And its not like it would be easy to prove

There are symptoms, but even then, it doesn't make it easy to prove.

I do consider her happiness, and I seriously think she would be happier if she were thinner. What else would you suggest? That she'd ignore my dad, in which case she'd be fat and sad? Or divorce, in which case she'd be fat, sad and alone?

Or maybe for her to tell my dad to give her a break? That's the method she's been trying so far, and the results have been imperfect. She has started working on losing her weight recently, so let's wait for results on that one.

So she'll be thin, bullied by your dad and yourself by the sound of it, and still not loved for herself but simply tolerated since she complied with your ideas about how she should be.
I'm honestly sorry for this poor woman, being pushed and emotionally hurt and attacked by both her husband and her son....


Now you're kind of missing the point. It's not like I'd pick a random girl off the street and then start forcing her into my mold. No, I'd select a girl who fits my ideal in the first place. Seeing as those criteria of mine are not very exclusive (and I don't even care about that bra part all that much), it's not unreasonably hard to find a girl, who meets them.

The problem comes when I've met and married such a girl, and she then begins to change herself. Wouldn't it be only natural of me to try to resist the change as much as I could? I'm not the kind of person who 'dictates' stuff to others anyway, but I sure as hell would voice my opinion.


You're completely missing the point. First off, with that attitude, you probably won't have that many girls to choose from. I'd venture a guess that you haven't yet had a relationship that lasted for more than a few weeks, maybe months if the girl was exceptionally tolerant.

Here's another bit or information about the real world : People WILL change. Always. There is no way out of that. Whatever girl you might marry, she WILL change. Inevitably.
Having a relationship is living with the change, adapting, finding ways to compromise and accept and love the person. Not to start bullying her to change back into the way she was when you married.

Why is usury un-Islamic but for some reason vaccinations are not?
Because it is not possible to reasonably interpret the combined writings setting forth the tennets of Islam without concluding that ursury is un-Islamic, whereas one can easily make a reasonable interpretation without believing anything whatsoever has been stated in regards to vaccines (much less that they are forbidden to Muslims). That ursury is un-Islamic is not a matter of controversy among Muslims, while vaccinations being un-Islamic is both a recent idea and most certainly a matter of controversy.

Same with the Christian examples.
Because by definition you cannot be christian and not believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God, sent to earth to die for all our sins in order that we may achieve ever-lasting life in heaven, where-as you can be Christian without believing that no dinosaurs ever existed.

I never got why some of the religious rules are legitimate today, but other rules from the same religion are now all of a sudden obsolete.
You honestly cannot comprehend that as attitudes, values, knowledge and understanding change over time people's interpretation and understanding of a text might also change? You honestly cannot comprehend (as in the case of the Muslim example which actually refers to an addition rather than a subtraction) that people would want to apply the principals of their religion throughout their lives, even in areas where new developments not known of at the time the text was written and so not specifically referred to in the text have occured?
When did god show up and clarify the rules?
2.35pm last Tuesday, if you missed out apparently there'll be an encore in another 2000 years.:rolleyes:

I do consider her happiness, and I seriously think she would be happier if she were thinner.
Really? Or do you seriously think she would be happier if no one made an issue out her weight?

What else would you suggest? That she'd ignore my dad, in which case she'd be fat and sad? Or divorce, in which case she'd be fat, sad and alone?
What on earth makes you think that if she loses weight she wont be sad and thin knowing full well that she's not loved enough for herself to the point where the cuddliness of her waist is more important to her husband than her sense of worth, self-security and general happiness and well-being? I dont see how someone can be happy in that situation. She must think she's damm lucky not to have suffered a disfiguring accident if that's your father's attitude.

Or maybe for her to tell my dad to give her a break? That's the method she's been trying so far, and the results have been imperfect. She has started working on losing her weight recently, so let's wait for results on that one.
Or maybe she should get a sense of self-worth and dump the jerk, a person with a sense of self worth is generally speaking rather attractive and frankly I doubt she'd have as much problems finding someone else as your father would. Maybe he'd realise that a 'fat wife' is better than no wife and become a better person, albeit a better person who doesnt have the privledge of being married to your mother anymore.

OK, show me a quote of me saying that the woman's body should be exactly like it was before pregnancy. I don't remember saying it. Simply losing the extra weight - or at least most of it - she put on during pregnancy is all I ask for. I'm quite aware of the irreversable changes that happen during pregnancy, and I'm not expecting miracles.
I dont think you are quite aware at all.

Now you're kind of missing the point. It's not like I'd pick a random girl off the street and then start forcing her into my mold. No, I'd select a girl who fits my ideal in the first place. Seeing as those criteria of mine are not very exclusive (and I don't even care about that bra part all that much), it's not unreasonably hard to find a girl, who meets them.
As Cabra West points out, you have to narrow down the field to those who'd accept you, and that leaves you with the insecure (no person with self-worth would put up with the shit you apparently intend to hang on your hypothetical wife). You might want to note that people with low-self worth are more likely to suffer weight issues than those without, especially in terms of unhealthy weight fluctuation, eating/exercising disorders (included but not limited to compulsive over-eating) etc.

The problem comes when I've met and married such a girl, and she then begins to change herself. Wouldn't it be only natural of me to try to resist the change as much as I could? I'm not the kind of person who 'dictates' stuff to others anyway, but I sure as hell would voice my opinion.
By begins to change herself do you mean ages? Are you not aware that a person can be a particular weight and body shape, only to change without any alteration to their diet or exercise? Metabolism alters during a person's lifetime and it is not uncommon for peoples' body shapes to transition as they move through life stages.

If you have a strong immunity system, and your partner isn't literally covered in shit, it's not that big of a health risk. It's just very unattractive. In moderation, bad hygiene is actually good for health, as it improves the immunity system.
It's a health risk to their partner, unlike one's spouse's waistline becoming more or less cuddly.

So she'll be thin, bullied by your dad and yourself by the sound of it, and still not loved for herself but simply tolerated since she complied with your ideas about how she should be.
I'm honestly sorry for this poor woman, being pushed and emotionally hurt and attacked by both her husband and her son....

Of course we love her. We couldn't go on without her, and her personality is the best anyone could hope for in a mother or a wife. I have no reason to keep reminding her of her weight, and I certainly don't like the way my dad does, but I'm not the one married to her. I just honestly believe that she'd be happier if she were thin. Might spice up her sex life, too. Sorry, your logic just does not compute.

Here's another bit or information about the real world : People WILL change. Always. There is no way out of that. Whatever girl you might marry, she WILL change. Inevitably.
Having a relationship is living with the change, adapting, finding ways to compromise and accept and love the person. Not to start bullying her to change back into the way she was when you married.

How many times during this thread have I agreed that people will inevitably change? I don't know, I've lost count.

Not all change is for the better, and some changes can be slowed down. In such cases, I don't see what your rush is to the change. Maybe it's just me; I like stability in my life.

I must go and make dinner now. Good night.:)

Of course we love her. We couldn't go on without her, and her personality is the best anyone could hope for in a mother or a wife. I have no reason to keep reminding her of her weight, and I certainly don't like the way my dad does, but I'm not the one married to her. I just honestly believe that she'd be happier if she were thin. Might spice up her sex life, too. Sorry, your logic just does not compute.

*lol
You do now that bigger women have bigger orgasms, right? And believe me, it's true :D

Nobody's being happy being bullied. And nobody is happy losing weight because someone else wants them to. That is the single worst reason there is.


How many times during this thread have I agreed that people will inevitably change? I don't know, I've lost count.

Not all change is for the better, and some changes can be slowed down. In such cases, I don't see what your rush is to the change. Maybe it's just me; I like stability in my life.

I must go and make dinner now. Good night.:)

Well, you'll hate life then. It's full of changes. And I find the best way is to just go along with them.

Because it is not possible to reasonably interpret the combined writings setting forth the tennets of Islam without concluding that ursury is un-Islamic, whereas one can easily make a reasonable interpretation without believing anything whatsoever has been stated in regards to vaccines (much less that they are forbidden to Muslims). That ursury is un-Islamic is not a matter of controversy among Muslims, while vaccinations being un-Islamic is both a recent idea and most certainly a matter of controversy. It seems some people who call themselves Muslim can make what to them seems a reasonable interpretaion of Muslim scripture that makes vaccinations haram. Religion evolves like living things. Different groups gather little variations over time that eventually make them seem totally different. I think that's happened to Islam, but each group wants to make the claim that they're the true Islam and the others are mistaken, or even heretical.


Because by definition you cannot be christian and not believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God, sent to earth to die for all our sins in order that we may achieve ever-lasting life in heaven, where-as you can be Christian without believing that no dinosaurs ever existed.
The gnostics didn't believe that Jesus died for our sins. Gnostics do not look to salvation from sin (original or other), but rather from the ignorance of which sin is a consequence. Ignorance -- whereby is meant ignorance of spiritual realities -- is dispelled only by Gnosis, and the decisive revelation of Gnosis is brought by the Messengers of Light, especially by Christ, the Logos of the True God. It is not by His suffering and death but by His life of teaching and His establishing of mysteries that Christ has performed His work of salvation. http://www.gnosis.org/gnintro.htm

Still they're considered Christians. Christianity has evolved into different religions as well. Some sects believe that to be a Christian one must accept the bible as complete and inerrant.

You honestly cannot comprehend that as attitudes, values, knowledge and understanding change over time people's interpretation and understanding of a text might also change? You honestly cannot comprehend (as in the case of the Muslim example which actually refers to an addition rather than a subtraction) that people would want to apply the principals of their religion throughout their lives, even in areas where new developments not known of at the time the text was written and so not specifically referred to in the text have occured? Yeah, I can comprehend that. What I can't comprehend is how one can still use the same name for the religion after it's inherited multiple mutations and hardly resembles the original ancestor religion.

Oh... ok. Should it be illegal then to break up with somebody? No

should it be legal to get divorces, then? yes

It does hurt just the same, you know?No it is not the same..

You are planning to have a polygamous relationship.. AKA open marriage.
It is not like you are sleeping with other men.. and not telling your Boyfriend (you are not cheating..)

You are planning to have some kind of multiple-Bigamous-relationship.. AKA open marriage. It is not like you are sleeping with other men.. and not telling your Boyfriend (you are not cheating)

Er... I know. Your point?

You mean apart from the whole 'faithful till death do us part' bit?

It doesn't say how you're faithful, however. You can screw other people and still be emotionally faithful to your spouse, if the spouse agrees.

"i give you my body forsaking all others"


Oh great, organ donation. That's just what we need.

Late Canadian Prime Minister Pierre Ellion Trudeau once said, "the government has no place in the bedroom of the nation."

Actually, he was referring only to HIS bedroom, sometimes called the Bedroom of the Nation. This was after he had been caught with 90 people in this room at once.

Er... I know. Your point?My point is that you are not Cheating.
I do not call that "adultery. I call it polygamy.

BTW in my book.. Polygamy should not be illegal, You should be able to have multiple Partners.. as long as they all know the rules.. and they all play by the rules.

And what happens to laws that are against the constitution?

If most people agree with them, they stay there, I'm afraid.

The drug ban, for example, is unconstitutional-it would not be unconstitutional if it was allowed for certain reasons. But as it is, it's unconstitutional.

1st it is amoral, but really what punsihments could one give? Execution is way too extreme and as someone said early on in this thread, divorce is punsihment enough.

Second, Soviestan, are you by chance the same Soviestan that is one of the senators for the red team on cybernations?

When did god show up and clarify the rules?http://boulguiboulga.canalblog.com/bush_god_wants.jpg
*hint*

Second, Soviestan, are you by chance the same Soviestan that is one of the senators for the red team on cybernations?

nope.

It seems some people who call themselves Muslim can make what to them seems a reasonable interpretaion of Muslim scripture that makes vaccinations haram.
Yes, and others can make what seems to them a reasonable interpretation that makes vaccines not harem.

Religion evolves like living things.
I'm well aware socio-cultural-religico practises, beliefs and complexes change over time as ought to be clear from the comments in my last post.

Different groups gather little variations over time that eventually make them seem totally different. I think that's happened to Islam, but each group wants to make the claim that they're the true Islam and the others are mistaken, or even heretical. The gnostics didn't believe that Jesus died for our sins. http://www.gnosis.org/gnintro.htm
Even among sects that are more homogenious as a sub-set than the overarching group is as a whole, differences occur. The issue of vaccines is a recent one, it is less like a change that has occured over time and more like a novel idea that is being tested.
An example of an established shared Islamic practise is the avoidance of alcohol, an example of an established variant (across Muslim groups) are understandings and beliefs regarding proper Muslim dress (consider the dress code expected of women in Saudi Arabia compared to the dress code expected of women in Pakistan), the rejection of vaccine might resolve into either of these categories (a shared practise or a variant practise) or it might be a passing practise, one that on testing is eventually rejected at group level (although individuals might adhere to it).

Still they're considered Christians. Christianity has evolved into different religions as well. Some sects believe that to be a Christian one must accept the bible as complete and inerrant.
You miss the point. I'm not saying that either belief is one christians dont have, I am differentiating between a belief that is chrisitian in the sense that one necessarily must believe it to be christian and one who believes it is necessarily christian, and a belief that one doesnt have need to have to be a christian and can hold without being a christian.

Yeah, I can comprehend that. What I can't comprehend is how one can still use the same name for the religion after it's inherited multiple mutations and hardly resembles the original ancestor religion.
The same way one can call the United States of America the United States of America despite many transitions since its founding and numerous ammendments to the constution.

Consider the vaccine issue. There is a direction to apply Islam to all aspects of one's life. Since health and well being is (an important) aspect of one's life, necessarily to be a good Muslim one must apply Islamic practise to their medical decisions (for themselves and their dependents). To be a good Muslim then, one must make some decision as to whether or not vaccines are Islamic in the absence of any clear direction. Muslims have a duty then to try to align their vaccine practises with a set of instructions and principals that doesnt make clear what is expected of them. Having no direct and explicit statement as to what is Islamic in such a case they have to interpret what principals have been illucidated in order to induce the a conclusion as to good Islamic practise. Different people look at the same text through their individual perception and reach what they believe to be the conclusion most consistent with the tennets of their religion (as their religion requires them). The specific issue of vaccines is novel in the sense that the availability of vaccines is a recent advent (ie they were not around in the day of the prophet) so only recently required a decision as to its status within Islam. But the wider principal is not new, the wider principal is as old as Islam. That principal is that one must apply the tennets of Islam to all aspects of their life, as best they can.

This is not altogether dissimilar to the USA which attempts to apply the Constitution to all aspects of 'being American' while faced with the challenge that much of what needs to be decided is not illucidated explicitly anywhere in the document. Not only will things come to be ruled Constutional and other things ruled Unconstitutional that previously had not been ruled as such, but different people will look at the same constitutional text and reach different conclusions as to how to apply it to novel developments.

My point is that you are not Cheating.
I do not call that "adultery. I call it polygamy.

BTW in my book.. Polygamy should not be illegal, You should be able to have multiple Partners.. as long as they all know the rules.. and they all play by the rules.

It's certainly not cheating, I agree that far.
But adultery is being defined as having sex with some else than the person you're married to.
Polygamy refers to having more than one spouse.

Hell, I only want to fuck the guys, I don't want to marry them all!

Meh. Might make people work harder for their relationships, and lawyers have to eat too.

They already eat fairly well, from what I've heard.

Divorce proceedings are already ugly. In California, a lot of the wrangling in them has been done away with by making it so that assets are split 50/50. Fair? Probably not. Neat, tidy and efficient? Very. In other places, I've heard, they spend quite a bit of time arguing over who's to blame for the failure of the marriage in order to figure out how assets are distributed. It sounds very messy to me.

It's certainly not cheating, I agree that far.
But adultery is being defined as having sex with some else than the person you're married to.
Polygamy refers to having more than one spouse.

Hell, I only want to fuck the guys, I don't want to marry them all!

I don't really see it as adultery if it's an open marriage anyway. The action isn't inherently bad, but the fact that in an exclusive relationship, the action involves deception and betrayal.

That is, of course, all true and correct. But just because change is inevitable, that doesn't mean it couldn't or shouldn't be resisted or slowed down. A partner, who doesn't want to appear attractive to the other, isn't any better than a partner, who concentrates on the other's looks.

What world do you live in?

People who live together, who have slept together for many years, who have produced children together, often also have got OLDER, fatter, thinner, wrinkled, grey and may have, god forbid, been ill and looked a bit rough in front of each other, can still love each other with all their hearts. People who look great, spend ages working out, dye their hair, watch what they eat like maniacs, run miles every morning, wear make up even in bed and never have morning breath still fuck around, generally because people who care that much about what they look like are usually insecure and less happy people than those who are happy to be honest and loving with each other, to fart and burp and sometimes not shave their legs and make out on the un-vacuumed carpet.

What I am saying to you is this, in the world of real life, people do fall out of love, for a million reasons, making it illegal or what ever will not stop it, just as making divorce illegal would stop people from not wanting to be married. It is NOT easy to divorce, and don't say it is until you have done it yourself, especially when you have children and or property involved. Life sucks sometimes, people are assholes sometimes, people get hurt, but you can't make laws to stop that, and thinking that you can only makes it harder to deal with.

http://boulguiboulga.canalblog.com/bush_god_wants.jpg
*hint*

If you think about it, Bush became President *twice* - both times, the Democrats and the media thought Bush would get his ass kicked in the elections.

Makes you wonder whether there is a God, and whether or not he wanted Bush to be President, eh?

If you think about it, Bush became President *twice* - both times, the Democrats and the media thought Bush would get his ass kicked in the elections.

Makes you wonder whether there is a God, and whether or not he wanted Bush to be President, eh?

But... but that would mean... god hates America?

But... but that would mean... god hates America?

You never know...

I do consider her happiness, and I seriously think she would be happier if she were thinner.

Well yeah, because people like you and your dad intentionally make her miserable when she's NOT skinny. Duh.


What else would you suggest? That she'd ignore my dad, in which case she'd be fat and sad? Or divorce, in which case she'd be fat, sad and alone?

You really think that she'll be happier staying married to an asshole who insults her appearance, but she'll be "sad" if she ditches him and goes on with her life?

Gimme a break. Anybody, male or female, is better off alone than with an asshole control freak for a spouse.


Or maybe for her to tell my dad to give her a break? That's the method she's been trying so far, and the results have been imperfect. She has started working on losing her weight recently, so let's wait for results on that one.

Great example of how abuse works. Break her down enough, and she'll be thankful if he just stops treating her like shit while she complies with his demands.


OK, show me a quote of me saying that the woman's body should be exactly like it was before pregnancy. I don't remember saying it. Simply losing the extra weight - or at least most of it - she put on during pregnancy is all I ask for. I'm quite aware of the irreversable changes that happen during pregnancy, and I'm not expecting miracles.

You have so far demonstrated completely unrealistic expectations about the human body, and specifically the female body.


Now you're kind of missing the point. It's not like I'd pick a random girl off the street and then start forcing her into my mold. No, I'd select a girl who fits my ideal in the first place. Seeing as those criteria of mine are not very exclusive (and I don't even care about that bra part all that much), it's not unreasonably hard to find a girl, who meets them.

The catch will come when you try to convince said ideal girl to actually date YOU.


The problem comes when I've met and married such a girl, and she then begins to change herself. Wouldn't it be only natural of me to try to resist the change as much as I could?

No. It would be idiotic, controlling, and bordering on abuse.

If you marry a real live woman, she WILL try to change herself over time. This is because real live women are actual human beings. They will not want to remain the same for 50 years. They will not want their body to look the same for 50 years. They WILL change, and they WILL want to change, over the course of a marriage.


I'm not the kind of person who 'dictates' stuff to others anyway, but I sure as hell would voice my opinion.

Have fun with that. I'm sure the ladies will. :D


If you have a strong immunity system, and your partner isn't literally covered in shit, it's not that big of a health risk.

...

Do I need to go into Intro Sex Ed here?


It's just very unattractive. In moderation, bad hygiene is actually good for health, as it improves the immunity system.
Oooh, and he buys into popular myths about the "immunity system," too! Far out.

Guess what? If "bad hygiene" were really good for you, you know what we would call it? GOOD HYGIENE!

But... but that would mean... god hates America?

Does that mean Phelps was right? :eek:

Does that mean Phelps was right? :eek:
Even a stopped clock is right twice each day. ;)

Even a stopped clock is right twice each day. ;)

Not if it's digital.

Not if it's digital.
...

Phil, are you suggesting that Fred Phelps is digital?

...

Phil, are you suggesting that Fred Phelps is digital?

Does not compute. *beep beep* Does not compute. *beep beep* Does not compute. *boom*

...

Phil, are you suggesting that Fred Phelps is digital?

Well, he can't be human, can he?

Well, he can't be human, can he?
Oh. My. Gawd.

It's all falling into place.

Fred Phelps: Evil Cyborg.