NationStates Jolt Archive

Which genera do you think the christian music indistry (CMI) does best?

Silence.

Genre...

uninspired preachy alt-rock

They've got that down.

WOW. That was some fast posting.
P.S. Thank you to the South Islands for correcting my spelling. That isn't sarcasm.
P.P.S.

uninspired preachy alt-rock

They've got that down.

Can you give me an example of a artist in that Genre

Bluegrass.. gospel bluegrass is pretty impressive sometimes. I've never even heard of Christian metal, and don't want to.. :confused:

CMI really fucking sucks.

You know, the only christian music I've ever listened to has been choral, hymns and the like. In Russian. Frankly anything else they try to produce just annoys me, but a soaring choral piece, that's another story... I'll add to this that it has to be in another language, russian, latin, german, what have you. I listen to it to appreciate the sheer majesty of the voices etc. Not to get any of the message. (and english doesn't sound good to me in choral pieces. Too much Red Army Choir)

Can you give me an example of a artist in that Genre

No I can't.

Bluegrass.. gospel bluegrass is pretty impressive sometimes. I've never even heard of Christian metal, and don't want to..

agreed

I've never even heard of Christian metal, and don't want to.. :confused:

Overcome is not too horrific and Undecieved by Extol is pretty good, actually, though I am not 100% certain that that is christian.

I think Swallowing Shit sums up Christian Metal the best.

Christian Metal = Nazi Reggae.

Fuckin' sack of shit, you don't fucking get it.
you cannot disguise your fuckheaded christian lies.
anti-homosexuality? you're fuckin' shit to me.

Christian rock makes me yearn for poorly made nationalistic music at least then its not so much on the gibberish “only one true religion your all wrong, Save me Jeezus!”

then again I'm agnostic, maybe I should do this with agnostic rock?

Gospel, Pop....

I mostly listen to Amy Grant, Sandi Patti...

The Danielson Famile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danielson_Famile) are pretty damn good. I'm also quite partial to a bit of Bluegrass, which often has a lot of Christian influences and lyrics.

And MXPX weren't that bad.

Most Christian rock/indie/metal bands are a bit sucky though.

Christian Rock Music is like Christian Video Games and Christian RPGS. They all fall victim to the Domain of Satan Rule:

Domain Of Satan Rule. Without exception, all RPGs based on Christian ideas suck horribly and/or quickly go out of print.

Modern music (especially rock, and even more so really good rock) does not mesh well with traditional christian ideas. When someone tries to force the two together, the result is invariably painful for anyone unfortunate enough to be in earshot.

And I second the Dominion of Satan rule on this one.

Christian Rock Music is like Christian Video Games and Christian RPGS. They all fall victim to the Domain of Satan Rule:

ROFL. I third

Thinks of combination of parody and punk rock.

Thinks of dead kennedys songs...

Thinks of inevitable albums...

Fresh Fruit for Saved Veggietales
1: Save the Poor
2: Forward to Heaven!
3: When you fight for your country
4: Let's Forgive the Landlord
5: Save Me
6: Your Emotions are Healthy when given by God
7: Crusade Warfare
8: California Filthy Sinners
9: I save Children through sunday school!
10: Delivering people's mail
11: Funland at the Church
12: Saved in the Head
13: Holiday in Church-sponsored getaway.
14: Viva Las Desert of Sinful Waste

Which genera do you think the christian music indistry (CMI) does best?

Flyleaf: "Breathe Today" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkxCt7qpwoE)

It is possible to be Christian, and to rock.

they all fail.

Flyleaf: "Breathe Today" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkxCt7qpwoE)

It is possible to be Christian, and to rock.

Flyleaf!!! Some of their songs are nice.

Bluegrass.. gospel bluegrass is pretty impressive sometimes. I've never even heard of Christian metal, and don't want to.. :confused:

I'll bet it's a lot like Cannibal Corpse only the singer growls out something about Jesus crushing Satan's skull with a hammer.

Setting aside the unliklyhood of there being anything Punk about religion ("Look at me bend over for my God. Isn't it so rebellious"), I'll point out the idiocy of describing the word "Industry" with "Punk Rock".

There have been Punk groups who were Christian, I suppose, but none who made a big deal out of it.

i was going to say hymns and gospel, but because those don't count i had to vote for "none, CMI sucks"

Hmm. I am here in Europe on an exchange year now, and am Christian. Note, though, that I choose my music based not on the religious significance, but based on sound. I personally love techno, and CMI has put out some pretty awesome trance, though Jewish trance is even better. I voted for rap and hip hop, though, for that can be pretty good in the Christian version. Once again, though, christian is not the best for religion in a genre. In rap, the muslims in Arabia are pretty awesome. I have also made friends with some goths here, who say that christian death metal can be pretty good, though I have never heard any.

Heavy Metal.

As I Lay Dying FTW!!!


...what the hell is the Christian music industry, anyway?

Which genera do you think the christian music indistry (CMI) does best?

CMI are just idiots.

Christian music, for the most part, can be like any other music. Five Iron Frenzy is a pretty sweet Christian ska band, and Foolish Things is kind of a fun, poppy band. Sure, CMI is pretty good about butchering genre's, but if you look in the right places you'll find some decent music.

Gospel music. Anything other than that should be burned to appease the spinning corpse of Baby Jesus.

Erm, well.

The only Christian band I can think of that I like is Trouble...but then, I don't find their lyrics offensively preachy.

Thinks of combination of parody and punk rock.

Thinks of dead kennedys songs...

Thinks of inevitable albums...

Fresh Fruit for Saved Veggietales
1: Save the Poor
2: Forward to Heaven!
3: When you fight for your country
4: Let's Forgive the Landlord
5: Save Me
6: Your Emotions are Healthy when given by God
7: Crusade Warfare
8: California Filthy Sinners
9: I save Children through sunday school!
10: Delivering people's mail
11: Funland at the Church
12: Saved in the Head
13: Holiday in Church-sponsored getaway.
14: Viva Las Desert of Sinful Waste

LOL. I like "Let's Forgive the Landlord" the best.

Pop. Just replace the word baby with Jesus and you've got a platinum selling single.

actually, this thread is the first i hear about christion music. i have some songs with lyrics or references about religion but that's not why i like those songs. i find the whole concept quite weird.
also how can you have religious trance? i'm not really into trance, but most electronic music i listen to has no lyrics and when there are lyrics they aren't that important.

actually, this thread is the first i hear about christion music. i have some songs with lyrics or references about religion but that's not why i like those songs. i find the whole concept quite weird.
also how can you have religious trance? i'm not really into trance, but most electronic music i listen to has no lyrics and when there are lyrics they aren't that important.

I'm gonna start a Christian drone band...Wait, an Islamic one. I think I could actually do that...hmm...

Which genera do you think the christian music indistry (CMI) does best?

Best? I didn't know such a thing existed :confused:

How about 13th century church music?

I'm gonna start a Christian drone band...

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was 23Hz at 115dB(A).

I'm gonna start a Christian drone band...Wait, an Islamic one. I think I could actually do that...hmm...

doesn't traditional Islamic music use a lot of drones? you could use that influence to market it as Islamic music.

doesn't traditional Islamic music use a lot of drones? you could use that influence to market it as Islamic music.

I slam, you slam, we all slam for Islam.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was 23Hz at 115dB(A).

That almost sounds like a plausible album title...

And thou shalt shit thy pants feeling the vengeful bass of the Lord Jehovah....

doesn't traditional Islamic music use a lot of drones? you could use that influence to market it as Islamic music.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.


Watch this space tomorrow. ;)

I think, for the most part, christian musicians' primary goal is to spread their religious message. The music seems to be mostly of secondary importance. I think they take tried and true music formulas and execute them fairly well but there is little musical innovation that I've seen, christian muzak.
A notable exception to this is Phil Keggy. I've also seen exceptions on a local level.

I slam, you slam, we all slam for Islam.

hmmm now that you post that i see that i have typed islam with capital letters, i have no clue why i did that. normaly i never use capital letters.

I slam, you slam, we all slam for Islam.

Someone should notify Madball immediately. :eek:

Someone should notify Madball immediately. :eek:

Vinnie Stigma. Living legend. That's all I'm saying.

Why is it that, simply because there's a different driving force behind the music, you have to see it as so much worse to mainstream music?

There are awesome christian rock bands- for example YFriday, Switchfoot or Relient K.

There's also alot of christian rap/ hip-hop... but as a general rule I hate all music from those genres so I wouldn't be able to say how good they were.

Why is it that, simply because there's a different driving force behind the music, you have to see it as so much worse to mainstream music?


U2 did some Christian rock - see the Joshua Tree its got Christianity all over it. And it happens to be one of the best albums ever made. Apart from U2, I've never heard any other Christian music

...Apart from U2, I've never heard any other Christian music

This coming from a man with Bob Dylan in his sig? SLow Train Coming, anyone? Saved, no?

U2 did some Christian rock - see the Joshua Tree its got Christianity all over it. And it happens to be one of the best albums ever made. Apart from U2, I've never heard any other Christian music

not even the late great Johnny Cash

This coming from a man with Bob Dylan in his sig? SLow Train Coming, anyone? Saved, no?

Point taken :p ...I have a bad memory sometimes. Bar U2 and Bob Dylan I have not heard any religious rock. And the religious 80's Dylan was nowhere near as good as his other earlier and later albums.

I think people should just forget the message of the music and judge the band on the quality of the music and the lyrics.

not even the late great Johnny Cash

The Cash songs that ive heard haven't been very religious.....there again I haven't heard alot of Johnny Cash despite liking most that I've heard him do.

The Cash songs that ive heard haven't been very religious.....there again I haven't heard alot of Johnny Cash despite liking most that I've heard him do.

When The Man Comes Around ain't just about some man, you know?

silence.

When The Man Comes Around ain't just about some man, you know?

Probably but to be honest I haven't heard that one. And I don't think Cocaine Blues is especially religious :p. If I had heard alot more Johnny Cash I would probably see that he had written alot of religious music but the songs I have heard haven't a religious message in them that i've noticed.

Christian heavy metal ftw.

Christian punk rock? Wow... That almost tops Nazi skinhead on the oxymoron charts.

Christian punk rock? Wow... That almost tops Nazi skinhead on the oxymoron charts.

Where do Bad Brains, or for that matter Jewdriver, fit in the chart?

gospel

gospel

Which genera does the CMI best produce? Hymns and Gospel don't count.

Keep on working on the basic reading comprehension there.

Vinnie Stigma. Living legend. That's all I'm saying.

Well I didn't know he was a Muslim, or that circle pits were a long established Islamic tradition. :D

Where do Bad Brains, or for that matter Jewdriver, fit in the chart?I dunno much about Jewdriver, but I thought they were supposed to be satire?
Bad Brains were never out to convert people or wank for the lord. Nothing exclusivist or evangelizing about them.

Don't get me wrong BWO, I wasn't implying religion and punk are mutually exclusive. CMI and punk is, but religion in itself has nothing to do with it, it's all the exclusivist, evangelizing, authoritarian crap that does it.

Now that's something I wouldn't even force my worst enemy to listen too... :eek:

I dunno much about Jewdriver, but I thought they were supposed to be satire?
Bad Brains were never out to convert people or wank for the lord. Nothing exclusivist or evangelizing about them.

Now I may be reading something into nothing, but HR Brain talked a lot about, "Bringing the truth to the children". That sounds a lot light evangelizing to me.

Then there's the shit they pulled in Texas.

Don't get me wrong BWO, I wasn't implying religion and punk are mutually exclusive. CMI and punk is, but religion in itself has nothing to do with it, it's all the exclusivist, evangelizing, authoritarian crap that does it.

One needed look at the Christian part of CMI. Take away the C and it is still incompatible with Punk.

how can you say gospel doesn't count? it's the only christian music that doesn't make me cringe.

Now I may be reading something into nothing, but HR Brain talked a lot about, "Bringing the truth to the children". That sounds a lot light evangelizing to me.

Then there's the shit they pulled in Texas.

...and the whole Don't Blow Bubbles affair too.



One needed look at the Christian part of CMI. Take away the C and it is still incompatible with Punk.

All depends what you define as 'industry'. CBS would certainly be industry, but would Filthy Smackhead Recordings run from a bedroom in Bumfuck, Alaska count?

None. What is marketed as Christian Music tends to be awful. They only all themselves such because they know they are too bad to survive in the mainstream market. For a Christian band that are good enough for the mainstream, see U2.

None. What is marketed as Christian Music tends to be awful. They only all themselves such because they know they are too bad to survive in the mainstream market. For a Christian band that are good enough for the mainstream, see U2.

That is an excellent point. I have noticed that the best bands are the ones tht either don't market themselves as such, or at least don't always, such as "Must've Done Something Right" (Relient K) or "Resistor" (Brave Saint Saturn), or "There's gotta be" (Stacy Oricco), which aren't explicity Christian.

Unfortunatly, the best Christian artists, such as BarlowGirl or TobyMac are not marketed to the secular listeners.

P.S. I said Gospel and Hymns don't count because most of the people whom I come across say CMI suck because they are only exposed to those genres, and therefore paint all music all CMI with the same brush.

I've changed my mind. The best Christian musician is Larry the Cucumber.

All depends what you define as 'industry'. CBS would certainly be industry, but would Filthy Smackhead Recordings run from a bedroom in Bumfuck, Alaska count?

It depends. Does Filthy Smackhead Recordings use industry tactics, abusive contracts, the RIAA, and empty music to make money. If yes, yes. If no, no.

Now I may be reading something into nothing, but HR Brain talked a lot about, "Bringing the truth to the children". That sounds a lot light evangelizing to me.

Then there's the shit they pulled in Texas.Clearly there's something here I don't know about.One needed look at the Christian part of CMI. Take away the C and it is still incompatible with Punk.Industry needn't be a bad thing, music or otherwise, nor does it have any cultural implication for punk. Inter-scene DYI enabling and organisation is 'industry' and about as integral to our culture as anything can be said to be.

Take the C out of MI, and the MI bit will almost certainly change fundamentally. And not necessarily into something incompatible with our culture.

Clearly there's something here I don't know about.

HR Brain gave many interviews where he espoused singularly homophobic and sexist views. I'm not gonna tell the story from Texas, because its been quite a few months since I last read the book I got the story from, and I don't remember any details, but, stripped of details, he was quite an ass to a homosexual in Texas and demonstrated hate deserving of any Phelpsite.


Industry needn't be a bad thing, music or otherwise, nor does it have any cultural implication for punk. Inter-scene DYI enabling and organisation is 'industry' and about as integral to our culture as anything can be said to be.

Take the C out of MI, and the MI bit will almost certainly change fundamentally. And not necessarily into something incompatible with our culture.

I'm always suspicious of music industry, because it almost always includes the abusive, truly disgusting elements of pseudo-slavery for artists, and the sanitization of any real message or value.

Then again, I'm a pretty poor punk myself, so I'm sorry to admit that I'm probably talking out of my ass.

HR Brain gave many interviews where he espoused singularly homophobic and sexist views. I'm not gonna tell the story from Texas, because its been quite a few months since I last read the book I got the story from, and I don't remember any details, but, stripped of details, he was quite an ass to a homosexual in Texas and demonstrated hate deserving of any Phelpsite.I never knew, and I'm even old enough that I should. Fuck him. I don't give a shit how he thinks his holyholy feels about other people, but condemning others using 'divine' authority is the antithesis of what our culture's all about. I guess we'll just have to add Bad Brains to the top ten list of hilariously pathetic oxymoron's. I'm always suspicious of music industry, because it almost always includes the abusive, truly disgusting elements of pseudo-slavery for artists, and the sanitization of any real message or value.

Then again, I'm a pretty poor punk myself, so I'm sorry to admit that I'm probably talking out of my ass.Industry doesn't by definition imply anything other than a certain level of organisation. The Music Industry is something specific, namely a bunch of organised, for profit, publishers, distributors and their interest organisations.

We have our own DIY music industry. It's what allows us to arrange world tours and whatnot. It's just not even remotely similar to the Music Industry, and it's not based on profit.

So it depends a great deal on just what you feel like calling industry. Some is in gross violation of everything we are, some is simply an extension of ourselves.

On a side note: what the fuck is people's problem with us non-straights? You'd think we went around raping the lot of you on a regular basis, based on the way you seem to think our sex lives is something you should have a say in.

Well fuck you. If you want control of my sex life, I want control of yours. Now when you're done molesting your genitals with a blender, we can talk. Until then, piss off.

I never knew, and I'm even old enough that I should. Fuck him. I don't give a shit how he thinks his holyholy feels about other people, but condemning others using 'divine' authority is the antithesis of what our culture's all about. I guess we'll just have to add Bad Brains to the top ten list of hilariously pathetic oxymoron's.

The one good thing is that after HR went Rasta, the band collapsed, so listening to their early stuff is normally safe.

So it depends a great deal on just what you feel like calling industry. Some is in gross violation of everything we are, some is simply an extension of ourselves.

I have no problem with a lot of industries, since they are the natural production of human association, as long as they allow unions and are regulated well, but art and industry are concepts I struggle with putting together.

As an artist, I find that if I depend on anyone else to publish my work, I am slave to their worldview, and I feel that that dilutes my work. However, it is true that the DIY community has allowed Punk to transcend borders, which is quite an accomplishment, considering how concentrated Punk populations tend to be.

On a side note: what the fuck is people's problem with us non-straights? You'd think we went around raping the lot of you on a regular basis, based on the way you seem to think our sex lives is something you should have a say in.

Well fuck you. If you want control of my sex life, I want control of yours. Now when you're done molesting your genitals with a blender, we can talk. Until then, piss off.

Fuck if I know. I'm lucky, I grew up in a house where fearing people based on their sexual preferances or race was considered the height of sin (so much for all religion being hateful, IMO), but there is a social stigma that children are immersed in from the moment they begin to understand sexuality that stigmatises alternate sexualities, and creates homophobia through fear of self, in my experience.

On a Side Note: Do you know anything about Retaliator? Pandora just tossed "Give Us Back St. George's Day" at me, and while I like their sound, the lyrics seemed ambiguous.

it is bollocks that christian music is a genre! heavy metal is music, rock is music, folk is music, rap is music (kind of), electronica is music, but "christian" isn't music!

i guess i'm saying that lyrics don't make the music, the music makes the music. so "christian music" is a very, very broad term, cuz christianity has invaded more genres of music than any other religion

The one good thing is that after HR went Rasta, the band collapsed, so listening to their early stuff is normally safe.Hehe, my brother was livid when they started their rasta shit, and glee doesn't even begin to cover his reaction at their demise :pI have no problem with a lot of industries, since they are the natural production of human association, as long as they allow unions and are regulated well, but art and industry are concepts I struggle with putting together. It's a bit complicated to discuss in this context, I think. For example, our local 'music industry' assumes no influence over anything. It's based purely on the voluntary association of equals, working together to promote common interests - and nothing else at all. Conflicting or lack of common interests simply means no association, and thus industry, takes place.
In a very real sense, it's all about how industry is organised.As an artist, I find that if I depend on anyone else to publish my work, I am slave to their worldview, and I feel that that dilutes my work. However, it is true that the DIY community has allowed Punk to transcend borders, which is quite an accomplishment, considering how concentrated Punk populations tend to be.The global DYI community only exists in the form of cooperation. There's no influencing taking place, nor are the components of it fixed. There's no institution, just free association.

Obviously one of the fundamental ideas is to enable each other to do things we have a hard time doing on our own, like releasing music. And equally obviously, in an industry based on mutual interest, lack of mutual interest prevents participation. But there's no coercion involved. Unless the people keeping your DIY scene alive don't believe in DIY at all, they'll never try to influence your work. They'll either cooperate with you or they won't, but no coercion takes place.
You can of course attempt to appeal to DYIers, but blaming them for you doing that seems a bit absurd.Fuck if I know. I'm lucky, I grew up in a house where fearing people based on their sexual preferances or race was considered the height of sin (so much for all religion being hateful, IMO), but there is a social stigma that children are immersed in from the moment they begin to understand sexuality that stigmatises alternate sexualities, and creates homophobia through fear of self, in my experience.I was similarly lucky. I grew up in our culture, so the massive homophobia and heterosexism of other cultures didn't really sink in 'til I had my first boyfriend from outside our cult. It's a mixed blessing though. It shocked the hell out of me to find yet another reason to loathe other cults. On a Side Note: Do you know anything about Retaliator? Pandora just tossed "Give Us Back St. George's Day" at me, and while I like their sound, the lyrics seemed ambiguous.Sure I do. They're a RAC band. They're not overly political though, so while you & they couldn't be further apart on personal politics, I'm sure they wouldn't mind drinking a beer with you.

In terms of RAC (Rock Against Commies), Retaliator is about as likable as it gets. Unless you can get past some really fucking idiotic lyrics, it's not the genre for you. And I'd suggest you trust me on that, 'cos I don't think you really want to know.i guess i'm saying that lyrics don't make the music, the music makes the music.I agree, up to a point. It's damn hard to overlook the fact that Blue Max (another RAC band) are neo-Nazis, when all they ever sing about is how great and glorious it is to kill me.

KSP you might want to look up some trad Oi! or RASH. Hard Skin's a perfect example of great trad-style (and 100% content-free) Oi! Red Alert's simply fucking brilliant, but sadly hard to find.

Hehe, my brother was livid when they started their rasta shit, and glee doesn't even begin to cover his reaction at their demise :p

Don't look now, they're on a reunion* tour. :P

Although HR isn't fronting for them right now, I think.

*Kind of like a on-again off-again couple is "together again", IMO.


It's a bit complicated to discuss in this context, I think. For example, our local 'music industry' assumes no influence over anything. It's based purely on the voluntary association of equals, working together to promote common interests - and nothing else at all. Conflicting or lack of common interests simply means no association, and thus industry, takes place.
In a very real sense, it's all about how industry is organised.

Interestingly enough (from the perspective of someone who isn't an anarchist at all), the only successful form of anarcho-communism I've ever seen was in some of the earlier DIY labels (small group dynamics being what they are).

The global DYI community only exists in the form of cooperation. There's no influencing taking place, nor are the components of it fixed. There's no institution, just free association.

Certainly, although I suspect one would have a hard time finding a label to release Fundamentalist Phelpsian Garbage through a DIY group. :p

I was similarly lucky. I grew up in our culture, so the massive homophobia and heterosexism of other cultures didn't really sink in 'til I had my first boyfriend from outside our cult. It's a mixed blessing though. It shocked the hell out of me to find yet another reason to loathe other cults.

I grew up in suburbia. My family's tolerance gave me a moral compass to work off of, but I always knew what intolerance and fear were. They are the basis of suburban culture.


Sure I do. They're a RAC band. They're not overly political though, so while you & they couldn't be further apart on personal politics, I'm sure they wouldn't mind drinking a beer with you.

In terms of RAC (Rock Against Commies), Retaliator is about as likable as it gets. Unless you can get past some really fucking idiotic lyrics, it's not the genre for you. And I'd suggest you trust me on that, 'cos I don't think you really want to know.

I was afraid of that. Pity though, I rather liked their sound.

KSP you might want to look up some trad Oi! or RASH. Hard Skin's a perfect example of great trad-style (and 100% content-free) Oi! Red Alert's simply fucking brilliant, but sadly hard to find.

I'll do that.

Don't look now, they're on a reunion* tour. :P

Although HR isn't fronting for them right now, I think.

*Kind of like a on-again off-again couple is "together again", IMO. Haha, I'll be sure to let my brother know tonight.Interestingly enough (from the perspective of someone who isn't an anarchist at all), the only successful form of anarcho-communism I've ever seen was in some of the earlier DIY labels (small group dynamics being what they are).Really? Successful anarchistic organisations can be found in pretty much any sphere that isn't completely subjugated to the whims of monopoly. Anything from publishers to relief organisations to entire cities exists as functional (though not always advertised) anarchies at this particular moment in time.

By the way, I know you don't consider yourself an anarchist. The reason escapes me, but I have noticed ;)Certainly, although I suspect one would have a hard time finding a label to release Fundamentalist Phelpsian Garbage through a DIY group. :p Probably true, but then again, you can hardly blame people for not being idiots. The idiots are free to engage in some organised DYI, they just tend not to. Probably because they're idiots.They are the basis of suburban culture.Awww. Here, have a :fluffle: - I don't do those, so it'd better be worth it.I was afraid of that. Pity though, I rather liked their sound.Despite their "We're apolitical, but here's our conservative propaganda!" attitude, they're actually nice enough people, and have no desire to tell you how to think. Keep that in mind and the lyrics might not bug you. I didn't mean to discourage you from Retaliator, just wanted to warn you about RAC.I'll do that.Feel free to TG me if you need some music.

Really? Successful anarchistic organisations can be found in pretty much any sphere that isn't completely subjugated to the whims of monopoly. Anything from publishers to relief organisations to entire cities exists as functional (though not always advertised) anarchies at this particular moment in time.

Huh... I did stipulate that they were things I had seen. In small groups, I expect Anarchic societies aren't difficult (after all, many romantic relationships are, essentially, without heierarchy in the traditional sense. Many aren't, but still.), I'm more or less skeptical of the larger groups.

By the way, I know you don't consider yourself an anarchist. The reason escapes me, but I have noticed ;)

While I embrace liberty, and human freedom, I suffer from a dose of cynicism far outstripping my daily nutritional requirements. Enough people are stupid with a heierarchical structure in place, that I fear them even more without the heavy hand of the state to prevent them from assaulting me. Moreover, I beleive that if people who were for human liberty learned to use the system to their advantage, rather than trying to destroy it, they might be able to prevent some of the more grotesque abuses of freedom.

Probably true, but then again, you can hardly blame people for not being idiots. The idiots are free to engage in some organised DYI, they just tend not to. Probably because they're idiots.

Well.. There's always the Right brothers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-z2D9lo9-8). They're on an independant label, I beleive. :p

Awww. Here, have a :fluffle: - I don't do those, so it'd better be worth it.

Thanks, althought I consider it a learning opportunity. Fear is the enemy of freedom, and if we do not know our foe, conquering it can be very difficult.

Despite their "We're apolitical, but here's our conservative propaganda!" attitude, they're actually nice enough people, and have no desire to tell you how to think. Keep that in mind and the lyrics might not bug you. I didn't mean to discourage you from Retaliator, just wanted to warn you about RAC.

I'll keep that in mind, and see if I can't just hunt down some more of their stuff. If I find it too acidic, I can always not listen to it.

Feel free to TG me if you need some music.

If I find myself lacking for music, I shall (although I'm so far behind on my listening right now that I don't think I'm likely to ever find myself lacking -- hazard of having friends who all recommend music, and who, if you haven't listened to the music they recommend in 24 hours, will force their CDs off on you, leaving you feeling guilty until you've listened to, and returned, said CDs). At the moment, I'm listening to a bunch of First-Wave Punk (a horrible classification method, I suppose, but what can you do?), which does include some Oi! (4-Skins), and I'm liking it.

Huh... I did stipulate that they were things I had seen. In small groups, I expect Anarchic societies aren't difficult (after all, many romantic relationships are, essentially, without heierarchy in the traditional sense. Many aren't, but still.), I'm more or less skeptical of the larger groups.I'm confident syndicalism solves the problem of scale. Then again, being a syndicalist, I'd say that.While I embrace liberty, and human freedom, I suffer from a dose of cynicism far outstripping my daily nutritional requirements. Enough people are stupid with a heierarchical structure in place, that I fear them even more without the heavy hand of the state to prevent them from assaulting me. Moreover, I beleive that if people who were for human liberty learned to use the system to their advantage, rather than trying to destroy it, they might be able to prevent some of the more grotesque abuses of freedom.That's pessimism, not cynicism. I believe people will seek to do whatever appears to be in their own self interest (which is not necessarily the same as their best interest). That's cynicism. It's also the fundamental reason I'm an anarchist, but not revolutionary.

Just like democracy, anarchism requires consent. This very simple truism seems to escape most people utterly, perhaps because we're born and raised to give our consent, and thus arn't conscious of doing it. That it escapes people, however, is also why revolutionaries are, to be blunt about it, idiots. Anarchism doesn't work without anarchists. Shockingly, consent-based social organisation don't work without consent. For a perfect example, look at the terrific failure that is the democracy of Iraq.

To be an anarchist in anything but name, thus requires an attempt to show people two things; that they can be anarchists, and that they have reason to be anarchists.

Undoubtedly there's as many ways to go about that task, as there's anarchists. One of the typical ones though, is to organise industry in an anarchic fashion, while refusing to have anything to do with industry and social organisations that don't do the same. Because doing it demonstrates that hierarchy is superfluous, and anarchism viable, and it allows non-anarchists an opportunity to participate fully and freely, which hopefully gives them a reason to be anarchists.

Another simple truth is that people who value autonomy in general, find themselves in a huge ethical dilemma when put in a situation where they have to infringe on the autonomy of others. If you really are a cynic, it should be very easy for you to come to terms with why such people don't go around governing others. It obviously contradicts their self interest (even if it doesn't contradict their best interest). Considering there's other avenues, it's insanely unlikely anyone who values autonomy in general, will ever think governing others is of so great self interest that they'll seek to act on it. It still happens though. You'll find at least a couple of anarchists in national politics in the EU.Well.. There's always the Right brothers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-z2D9lo9-8). They're on an independant label, I beleive. :p That's just disgusting. Still, doesn't even begin to compare to some RAC, and a lot of that is DIY as well. That's why I didn't say idiots never engage in it.Thanks, althought I consider it a learning opportunity. Fear is the enemy of freedom, and if we do not know our foe, conquering it can be very difficult.Hehe, the one guy I can mount a bit of sympathy for, doesn't need it. Though it's probably why you got it.leaving you feeling guilty until you've listened to, and returned, said CDs.I think your friends and I have something in common.At the moment, I'm listening to a bunch of First-Wave Punk (a horrible classification method, I suppose, but what can you do?), which does include some Oi! (4-Skins), and I'm liking it.The 4 Skins were fucking brilliant. It's Second Wave though, but don't let that bother you. It's far better than the first wave shit anyway.

... I'm a fucking walking stereotype, I know. What can I do.

rap is music (kind of)

Overlooking the sort of ignorance that makes people doubt the validity of hip-hop as music...

Rap is a vocal style most commonly associated with hip-hop as well as some strains of numetal. Hip-hop is the music itself. :)