NationStates Jolt Archive


The EU turns 50!

Neu Leonstein
24-03-2007, 00:43
I think this is a pretty good article:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,473599,00.html
Celebrating the Boring Miracle of the European Union

The European Union turns 50 on Sunday. For many, the 27-country bloc has become bureaucratic and boring. That, though, is precisely why it should be celebrated.

I think it's easy to forget the revolutionary nature of the project when confronted with the part boring, part infuriating everyday business in Brussels. I mean, when the EU was started in its earliest incarnations, Europe had basically no hope whatsoever of ending the 2000 years of conflict that preceded it. It's only been 50 years, but the important thing is that its framework has contributed a lot to a situation where it's basically impossible to even conceive a situation where war could flare up once again within the EU. Not to mention that the dismantling of borders is a good thing in and for itself.

But what do you think? Have the past 50 years been worth it (this German article (http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/0,1518,471978,00.html) suggests it certainly was)? And where do you see the EU heading? What would be your wishlist?
UN Protectorates
24-03-2007, 00:44
Vive de la European Union!
Swilatia
24-03-2007, 00:45
The EU is not a miracle.
The blessed Chris
24-03-2007, 00:50
I want done with the abominable thing. Now.
Neu Leonstein
24-03-2007, 00:51
The EU is not a miracle.
The idea that the ideologically-charged nationstates of the 20th century would willingly compromise their sovereignty in the interest of peace is pretty damn close to it.

I mean, of course the experience of those years was very different across the Iron Curtain, and I think that's why the brothers are being dickheads about the EU, but I think you can still see that it's an extraordinary phenomenon.
Similization
24-03-2007, 00:51
The EU is not a miracle.It's a debacle.
The blessed Chris
24-03-2007, 00:54
The idea that the ideologically-charged nationstates of the 20th century would willingly compromise their sovereignty in the interest of peace is pretty damn close to it.

I mean, of course the experience of those years was very different across the Iron Curtain, and I think that's why the brothers are being dickheads about the EU, but I think you can still see that it's an extraordinary phenomenon.

Indeed it is, since it is loathed by all pre-eminent countries within it, yet it endures.
UN Protectorates
24-03-2007, 00:55
You are both wrong, the EU is a great institution, and all European nations benefit greatly from it.
Neo Undelia
24-03-2007, 00:56
Happy Birthday!
The EU has been one of the best things for the world and certainly Europe in the last half century.

Nearly anything that undermines national sovereignty is all right in my book.
Neu Leonstein
24-03-2007, 00:59
Indeed it is, since it is loathed by all pre-eminent countries within it, yet it endures.
Meh. People like to bitch about Brussels, and that's their good right (and I certainly do it myself occasionally). But they don't think about the big picture sometimes.

To quote the article:
Frederick Taylor, British historian: "A prosperous Europe and 50 years without war -- that's historically unparalleled. If that's not a model for success, then what is? If we can continue for the next 50 years, then it will be more than a successful model, it will be a wonder."
UN Protectorates
24-03-2007, 01:01
Happy Birthday!
The EU has been one of the best things for the world and certainly Europe in the last half century.

Nearly anything that undermines national sovereignty is all right in my book.

Actually, the EU actually gives nations more sovereignty, if anything.

I know that may not make too much sense right now but let me explain...
Fassigen
24-03-2007, 01:03
I shall quote Looptroop: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvCOVDdzrCU)

"After the first and the second world wars, you'd think us Europeans couldn't take it no more, but we built up and tore down the Berlin wall only to build up a new and improved around our crumblin' Fort (Europa). This one was a bit tricky, not visible to the naked eye and if you was lucky, you could slip through the cracks and the crevices tuckin' your life under your arm, this way some people snuck in only to become second class citizens. Not listed in the system not existin' in a sense. Illegal immigrants, the word left a bitter sin, this place is cold and evil, I should have never went to

Fort Europa
My so called Eutopia
Where I can't find no culture
Feel the walls getting closer and closer and closer
Right here in Fort Europa (Right here)
Where I can't find no culture
Feel the walls getting closer and closer and closer"

*spits on the EU*
United Beleriand
24-03-2007, 01:04
It's a debacle.No, it's not. It's a success. The changes that are going on because of the EU are enormous and unique in history. Never has there been such peace and prosperity in Europe EVER. Of course there are always some who complain that things are not going as smoothly as they would like, but they really forget what the alternatives would be if things weren't going at all. Europe has overcome its divisions and now slowly but steadily a union grows like there has been none in the history of humankind. The people of the EU aspire to improve themselves and the rest of humanity. Something the US have lost on their way.
Neo Undelia
24-03-2007, 01:05
I shall quote Looptroop: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvCOVDdzrCU) "After the first and the second world wars, you'd think us Europeans couldn't take it no more, but we built up and tore down the Berlin wall only to build up a new and improved around our crumblin' Fort (Europa). This one was a bit tricky, not visible to the naked eye and if you was lucky, you could slip through the cracks and the crevices tuckin' your life under your arm, this way some people snuck in only to become second class citizens. Not listed in the system not existin' in a sense. Illegal immigrants, the word left a bitter sin, this place is cold and evil, I should have never went to

Fort Europa
My so called Eutopia
Where I can't find no culture
Feel the walls getting closer and closer and closer
Right here in Fort Europa (Right here)
Where I can't find no culture
Feel the walls getting closer and closer and closer"

*spits on the EU*
What? Immigrants are certainly treated better in the EU than they are in the US and pretty much anywhere else in the world, and what's that stuff about no culture?
Ultraviolent Radiation
24-03-2007, 01:15
I have to ask, does the EU stand for anything other than "not killing each other". I mean, that's good, but without a strong, unambiguous basis, it's going to be difficult for it to amount to much more.
Fassigen
24-03-2007, 01:18
What? Immigrants are certainly treated better in the EU than they are in the US and pretty much anywhere else in the world, and what's that stuff about no culture?

You are so clueless when it comes to the EU and the situation within its walls, it's mind-boggling in the light of your willingness to defend it. Also telling, as ignorance is probably the thing that unites its proponents.
Neo Undelia
24-03-2007, 01:25
You are so clueless when it comes to the EU and the situation within its walls, it's mind-boggling in the light of your willingness to defend it. Also telling, as ignorance is probably the thing that unites its proponents.
Come on Fass, your talking about the EU like its the God-damned Iron-Curtain.
Europe is an open society.
I'm sure immigrants don't live lives as well as natives, but that's typical. I assure you that they are far better off than those that come to the US or Canada.
Fassigen
24-03-2007, 01:34
Come on Fass, your talking about the EU like its the God-damned Iron-Curtain.

I'm talking about the EU like the shit hole that it is. That there are or have been other shittier holes out there in no way wipes the santorum off of Brussels.
Boonytopia
24-03-2007, 01:35
I think, overall, it has been a very good thing. As NL said, to get to the point where a WW1 or WW2 style conflict is virtually unthinkable, is a massive step forward.
Greater Trostia
24-03-2007, 01:37
You are so clueless when it comes to the EU and the situation within its walls, it's mind-boggling in the light of your willingness to defend it. Also telling, as ignorance is probably the thing that unites its proponents.

Mm, smells like ad hominem. And something else which I won't discuss in polite company.
Fassigen
24-03-2007, 01:40
Mm, smells like ad hominem.

Calling a duck a duck isn't an ad hominem.

And something else which I won't discuss in polite company.

And where might that company be? NS General? Hah!
UN Protectorates
24-03-2007, 01:40
To celebrate, here are 50 reasons why the EU has been a great success, especially for my homeland, Britain:

1 The end of war between European nations

2 Democracy is now flourishing in 27 countries

3 Once-poor countries, such as Ireland, Greece and Portugal, are prospering

4 The creation of the world's largest internal trading market

5 Unparalleled rights for European consumers

6 Co-operation on continent-wide immigration policy

7 Co-operation on crime, through Europol

8 Laws that make it easier for British people to buy property in Europe

9 Cleaner beaches and rivers throughout Europe

10 Four weeks statutory paid holiday a year for workers in Europe

11 No death penalty (it is incompatible with EU membership)

12 Competition from privatised companies means cheaper phone calls

13 Small EU bureaucracy (24,000 employees, fewer than the BBC)

14 Making the French eat British beef again

15 Minority languages, such as Irish, Welsh and Catalan recognised and protected

16 Europe is helping to save the planet with regulatory cuts in CO2

17 One currency from Bantry to Berlin (but not Britain)

18 Europe-wide travel bans on tyrants such as Zimbabwe's Robert Mugabe

19 The EU gives twice as much aid to developing countries as the United States

20 Strict safety standards for cars, buses and aircraft

21 Free medical help for tourists

22 EU peacekeepers operate in trouble spots throughout the world

23 Europe's single market has brought cheap flights to the masses, and new prosperity for forgotten cities

24 Introduction of pet passports

25 It now takes only 2 hrs 35 mins from London to Paris by Eurostar

26 Prospect of EU membership has forced modernisation on Turkey

27 Shopping without frontiers gives consumers more power to shape markets

28 Cheap travel and study programmes means greater mobility for Europe's youth

29 Food labelling is much clearer

30 No tiresome border checks (apart from in the UK)

31 Compensation for passengers suffering air delays

32 Strict ban on animal testing for the cosmetic industry

33 Greater protection for Europe's wildlife

34 Regional development fund has aided the deprived parts of Britain

35 European driving licences recognised across the EU

36 Britons now feel a lot less insular

37 Europe's bananas remain bent, despite sceptics' fears

38 Strong economic growth - greater than the United States last year

39 Single market has brought the best continental footballers to Britain

40 Human rights legislation has protected the rights of the individual

41 European Parliament provides democratic checks on all EU laws

42 EU gives more, not less, sovereignty to nation states

43 Maturing EU is a proper counterweight to the power of US and China

44 European immigration has boosted the British economy

45 Europeans are increasingly multilingual - except Britons, who are less so

46 Europe has set Britain an example how properly to fund a national health service

47 British restaurants now much more cosmopolitan

48 Total mobility for career professionals in Europe

49 Europe has revolutionised British attitudes to food and cooking

50 Lists like this drive the Eurosceptics mad


I am prepared to debate any of these reasons with anyone, tomorrow, since I need my sleep.
Fassigen
24-03-2007, 01:44
50 Lists like this drive the Eurosceptics mad

No, they make us laugh at you.
Neo Undelia
24-03-2007, 01:44
To celebrate, here are 50 reasons why the EU has been a great success, especially for my homeland, Britain:



I am prepared to debate any of these reasons with anyone, tomorrow, since I need my sleep.
Wonderful list chap.
Neo Undelia
24-03-2007, 01:46
I'm talking about the EU like the shit hole that it is. That there are or have been other shittier holes out there in no way wipes the santorum off of Brussels.

It looks great from where I'm standing. Best place to live in the world, Europe and that is due in great part to the EU.
The Atlantian islands
24-03-2007, 01:50
It looks great from where I'm standing. Best place to live in the world, Europe and that is due in great part to the EU.
Interesting you'd say that as the 3 best European countries to live in, Switzerland, Norway and Iceland, are NOT in the EU.;)
Seathornia
24-03-2007, 01:53
No, they make us laugh at you.

Silly scandies who will never understand how isolated Europe would be in the absence of the EU.
Greater Trostia
24-03-2007, 01:54
Calling a duck a duck isn't an ad hominem.


It is if your argument relies on the fact that it's a duck arguing against you. That's all you had. "You're ignernt!" Ad hominem.

Assuming one can classify your statements as "arguments" anyway. If not, then it's just a mindless personal attack. Take your pick.
Seathornia
24-03-2007, 01:55
Interesting you'd say that as the 3 best European countries to live in, Switzerland, Norway and Iceland, are NOT in the EU.;)

But they are in the economic union part ;) No tolls and whatnot (or, there aren't supposed to be economic barriers). Thusly, they avoid the bureaucratic parts, while gaining from the economics (and also giving to the economics, so it's not as if they are leeching :p )
Sel Appa
24-03-2007, 01:55
I hope in another 50, it is just all known as the Republic of Europe. :)
Seathornia
24-03-2007, 01:57
I hope in another 50, it is just all known as the Republic of Europe. :)

Nah, local governments are more efficient.

Should be less bureaucratic => more open + less "one-republic-of-europe" :p
Neo Undelia
24-03-2007, 01:58
I hope in another 50, it is just all known as the Republic of Europe. :)

Aye.
The Atlantian islands
24-03-2007, 01:59
But they are in the economic union part ;) No tolls and whatnot (or, there aren't supposed to be economic barriers). Thusly, they avoid the bureaucratic parts, while gaining from the economics (and also giving to the economics, so it's not as if they are leeching :p )
But they are not IN the EU...I never said they don't have any deals going on with the EU...but they are not in the EU and remain great because of that...countries like Iceland, Norway and Switzerland would have much to lose and little to gain, by joining the EU, economically and politically..not to mention the ethnic make up of these nations would be much more likely to suffer from more open immigration.
Fassigen
24-03-2007, 02:00
It looks great from where I'm standing.

No doubt it does. Don't make it so, though.
Seathornia
24-03-2007, 02:00
not to mention the ethnic make up of these nations would be much more likely to suffer from more open immigration.

ignored!

oh, and psst, there is open immigration to both Iceland and Norway, since if you can get into the EU, you can get into one of three Scandinavian countries that are members, and from there it is even easier to move to any other Scandinavian country.

Including Iceland and Norway.
Neo Undelia
24-03-2007, 02:01
not to mention the ethnic make up of these nations would be much more likely to suffer from more open immigration.

Fail.
Fassigen
24-03-2007, 02:03
Fail.

Well, you and I may not agree on many things, but on the failure of TAI's racist nonsense we see eye to eye.
The Atlantian islands
24-03-2007, 02:09
ignored!

oh, and psst, there is open immigration to both Iceland and Norway, since if you can get into the EU, you can get into one of three Scandinavian countries that are members, and from there it is even easier to move to any other Scandinavian country.

Including Iceland and Norway.
Actually..it depends...because for instance Denmark has shut down its borders considerably...and yet it is a Scandi nation AND in the EU....Iceland also suffers from less immigration and multiculturalism than Sweden does....though Norway is having some problems, I'll admit that.
Iceland:
In 2004, 20,669 people (7% of the total population) who were living in Iceland had been born abroad, including children of Icelandic parents living abroad. 10,636 people (3.6% of the total population) had foreign citizenship. The most populous nationalities are Poles (7,000), Danes (890), ex-Yugoslavians (670), Filipinos (647) and Germans (540).
No idea why there are so many Poles in Iceland...nor Filiponos.
I understand ex-Yugoslavians though.
The Atlantian islands
24-03-2007, 02:12
ignored!
Why? ....Is multiculturalsim a God granted correct concept that shouldnt be debated?

And by the way....as for Denmark...read up on the Danish Peoples' Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_People%27s_Party)..its helping change Denmark for the better, and is extremely popular..and borders are being regulated in Denmark more than ever before.
Europa Maxima
24-03-2007, 02:16
No doubt it does. Don't make it so, though.
I agree.
Call to power
24-03-2007, 02:17
I for one like the fact I can move about where I damn well please, I also like my EHIC card that many bars accept and allows me discount medical treatment abroad (though I might need a passport:p)

Plus the lack of war, euro zone and iffy unification that’s used to shake a big penis at the U.S is nifty :D

:fluffle: Happy 40th birthday E.U:fluffle:
Call to power
24-03-2007, 02:22
Why? ....Is multiculturalsim a God granted correct concept that shouldnt be debated?

I'd like to know how national borders can be good

do they stop aids or something? (also the fact that a country using Flexicurity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexicurity) is booming isn‘t too much of a shock;) )
The blessed Chris
24-03-2007, 02:23
But they are not IN the EU...I never said they don't have any deals going on with the EU...but they are not in the EU and remain great because of that...countries like Iceland, Norway and Switzerland would have much to lose and little to gain, by joining the EU, economically and politically..not to mention the ethnic make up of these nations would be much more likely to suffer from more open immigration.

Well indeed, although I fear the dolorous blow has already been dealt to Britain in that respect.

In any case, am I the only poster to actually appreciate the merits of a war? "States make wars, but wars make states".....
United Beleriand
24-03-2007, 02:27
Is multiculturalsim a God granted correct concept that shouldnt be debated?Yes.
Europa Maxima
24-03-2007, 02:27
Plus the lack of war, euro zone and iffy unification that’s used to shake a big penis at the U.S is nifty :D
Yes, with its main economies stagnating, it is doing just dandy. The EU is hardly a homogeneous entity. Some countries are doing far better than others. This (plus the fact that it's nearly double the US' size) does help create the illusion that it's in a better situation than the latter - but it isn't.

:fluffle: Happy 40th birthday E.U:fluffle:
May it be its last.
The blessed Chris
24-03-2007, 02:28
Yes.

Moron. Justify its being sacrosanct, given that it remains an idea entrenched only in post-1945 politics.
The Atlantian islands
24-03-2007, 02:28
I'd like to know how national borders can be good Preserve soveriegnty, keep other nations problems out of your own, keep other people out of your own, be unique and individual...ect

do they stop aids or something? (also the fact that a country using Flexicurity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexicurity) is booming isn‘t too much of a shock;) )[/QUOTE]
(I'll give you that there are many socially left wing elements here..but they are also against high taxes...atleast in name):
A tighten-up on immigration, especially on non-self-supporting immigrants
Demand that the government continue support for the State Church (The Evangelical Lutheran Church of Denmark)
To improve conditions for the elderly
To oppose a reduction of Denmark's sovereignty by the EU
To maintain monarchy, freedom of speech and the current Danish constitution
Stricter punishments on rape, violence and reckless driving
To oppose a multiethnic Danish society
Lower taxation as a long-term aim
Animal welfare
Grants for specific research into terrorism, islamism and cold-war history
Call to power
24-03-2007, 02:29
In any case, am I the only poster to actually appreciate the merits of a war? "States make wars, but wars make states".....

thats a good thing?
The blessed Chris
24-03-2007, 02:29
thats a good thing?

Of course it is. Conflict invariably strengthens a state in some sense.
The Atlantian islands
24-03-2007, 02:31
Well indeed, although I fear the dolorous blow has already been dealt to Britain in that respect.
Actually, I don't see much hope in England's future...Ireland, Scotland and such may still be ok..but England has problems..and it may be too far gone, in my opinion, in regards to what we are discussing. However, my point is that we need to stop this from happening to the rest of Europe, even more so its more untouched areas.
The Atlantian islands
24-03-2007, 02:32
Yes.
Way to add, idiot.:rolleyes:
Seathornia
24-03-2007, 02:35
Of course it is. Conflict invariably strengthens a state in some sense.

States are the bad thing here, as are wars.

So it's lose-lose for me.
Europa Maxima
24-03-2007, 02:35
Vive de la European Union!
The least you could do is skip the "de".
The blessed Chris
24-03-2007, 02:36
Actually, I don't see much hope in England's future...Ireland, Scotland and such may still be ok..but England has problems..and it may be too far gone, in my opinion, in regards to what we are discussing. However, my point is that we need to stop this from happening to the rest of Europe, even more so its more untouched areas.

Of course England has no hope. The majority of those that are actually English to any external sense of the term are either considering, hoping, or in the process, of emigrating, whilst our past glories are roundly attacked, abused or perverted to suit false ends.
The Atlantian islands
24-03-2007, 02:37
Of course England has no hope. The majority of those that are actually English to any external sense of the term are either considering, hoping, or in the process, of emigrating, whilst our past glories are roundly attacked, abused or perverted to suit false ends.
I'm sorry. It really is quite depressing. Just serves as an example of we DONT want Europe and the rest of the West to become.
I hope the Danish Peoples Party sets an example..and bless the Danes for voting for it.
The blessed Chris
24-03-2007, 02:37
States are the bad thing here, as are wars.

So it's lose-lose for me.

Whyever would a state be in any way malign? Surely, if the state was such a fatally flawed notion, the notion would not be quite so resilient as it appears to be, nor would nationalism enjoy the popularity it consistently has.
The blessed Chris
24-03-2007, 02:39
I'm sorry. It really is quite depressing. Just serves as an example of we DONT want Europe and the rest of the West to become.
I hope the Danish Peoples Party sets an example..and bless the Danes for voting for it.

Indeedy do. However, any legislation that actually meets and counters such processes is declaimed as having ""broken human rights", or being "racist and discriminatory".:(
Europa Maxima
24-03-2007, 02:40
Whyever would a state be in any way malign? Surely, if the state was such a fatally flawed notion, the notion would not be quite so resilient as it appears to be, nor would nationalism enjoy the popularity it consistently has.
This is merely an argumentum ad populum mixed with an appeal to authority. Both are fallacious when evoked in argumentation.
Seathornia
24-03-2007, 02:41
Whyever would a state be in any way malign? Surely, if the state was such a fatally flawed notion, the notion would not be quite so resilient as it appears to be, nor would nationalism enjoy the popularity it consistently has.

It's more of an ideological thing for me.

I dislike the idea of a state.

I do not hate it, important distinction. I do hate nationalism.

It's the whole limiting factor.
The Atlantian islands
24-03-2007, 02:43
Indeedy do. However, any legislation that actually meets and counters such processes is declaimed as having ""broken human rights", or being "racist and discriminatory".:(
Holland, Switzerland and Denmark all show some promises...
Start with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_People%27s_Party
Then read up on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_People%E2%80%99s_Party
Then read this http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11569485/site/newsweek/ and http://www.canada.com/topics/news/world/story.html?id=b4d47fc8-9764-4bcb-9fa3-4cbd0d7c56e3&k=88232&p=1
Call to power
24-03-2007, 02:43
Yes, with its main economies stagnating, it is doing just dandy. The EU is hardly a homogeneous entity. Some countries are doing far better than others. This (plus the fact that it's nearly double the US' size) does help create the illusion that it's in a better situation than the latter - but it isn't.

well that’s eastern Europe and well that pretty much explains the situation there (and the fact that where nearly double the US means nothing the E.U penis wise may as well be France Germany and Britain;) )

May it be its last.

*sniggers*

Preserve soveriegnty, keep other nations problems out of your own, keep other people out of your own, be unique and individual...ect

1) I don't care much for sovereighnty one can only have so much tea and comedy re-runs before being British becomes dull

2) tried that doesn't work *que worldwide economic depression film*

3) LOL I'm British I'd have you know:p

4) Unique and individual...what like having a government that kills welfare and lowers taxes, like new labour you could say...

A tighten-up on immigration, especially on non-self-supporting immigrants

no the steal jobs as far as European grumbling goes

Demand that the government continue support for the State Church (The Evangelical Lutheran Church of Denmark)

this a good thing that benefits demark?

Stricter punishments on rape, violence and reckless driving

your trying to buzz word the wrong guy here

[I]Lower taxation as a long-term aim

all governments aim to do that hence why utopian visions tend to be anarchic
The blessed Chris
24-03-2007, 02:43
This is merely an argumentum ad populum mixed with an appeal to authority. Both are fallacious means of debating.

No, what it's called is a valid point.

Why has the nation endured as a nation if not due to its inherent strengths, and the psychological resonance it has?

Or are the oppressed masses just yearning to dispense with such an idea, and all be one happy family?:rolleyes:
Europa Maxima
24-03-2007, 02:43
It's more of an ideological thing for me.

I dislike the idea of a state.

I do not hate it, important distinction. I do hate nationalism.

It's the whole limiting factor.
And yet you support the EU...?
Europa Maxima
24-03-2007, 02:45
No, what it's called is a valid point.
Hale's proposition (which underlined judicial reasoning for nearly 3 centuries with regard to marital rape) endured for a long while. It definitely was characterized by robusticity in this regard. It was still a useless anachronism. Simply lasting for a long while is not a sign of something's inherent goodness. The popularity of a concept and its longevity are by no means indicators of its actual worth, hence both the argumentum ad populum and the appeal to authority on their own are fallacious.
The blessed Chris
24-03-2007, 02:46
It's more of an ideological thing for me.

I dislike the idea of a state.

I do not hate it, important distinction. I do hate nationalism.

It's the whole limiting factor.

Nationalism is amongst the most potent political expediants ever found. Why such distaste for it?

In any case, why the dislike for a state? It does offer you protection, security, stability and prosperity.....:rolleyes:
Seathornia
24-03-2007, 02:46
this a good thing that benefits demark?

It's completely optional, thankfully, so it's your choice whether you want tax money going to it or not. If you don't, you pay less tax.

There are a few services not provided if you aren't a member (and hence pay church-tax), but it's not worth the near 1% tax it is for non-users. I mean, saving 1% of your income every year is going to pay off your funeral costs, I would imagine.
Seathornia
24-03-2007, 02:48
Nationalism is amongst the most potent political expediants ever found. Why such distaste for it?

In any case, why the dislike for a state? It does offer you protection, security, stability and prosperity.....:rolleyes:

It's political only. It runs contrary to a lot of things I would like to do and even runs contrary to my being. I would not exist, if nationalism roamed freely, for I would not be me. I like being me, so I will oppose nationalism.

I dislike the state for the same reason I dislike the military. Either may provide me protection, security and stability, but they are the same that will be the ones taking it away from me. Either the state/military that is supposed to protect me, or perhaps even another state/military.

Prosperity is not offered by the state.
The blessed Chris
24-03-2007, 02:48
Hale's proposition (which underlined judicial reasoning for nearly 3 centuries with regard to marital rape) endured for a long while. It definitely was characterized by robusticity in this regard. It was still a useless anachronism. Simply lasting for a long while is not a sign of something's inherent goodness.

However, to apply such a primciple unswervingly is moronic. The notion of a state is a natural human condition, derived from tribalism, and hence its longevity is highly relevent, and its consistent presence evidence of its strength.

In any case, surely, that the state has endured, whereas such principles as those cited above have not, is simply further evidence of its primal allure.
Seathornia
24-03-2007, 02:49
And yet you support the EU...?

The EU does not limit.

Try a Europe without the EU. Just look back a hundred years. That's limiting.

The EU is a step in the right direction. It's part of the longer journey.

Do note, however, I mentioned less bureaucracy being an important factor in improving the EUs ability - i.e. more local rule. That would reduce it's state similarities.
The South Islands
24-03-2007, 02:49
While I am naturally distrustful of such huge multi-government entities, I cannot comment in the negative to an organization that I have no contact with.

If it works for Europe, it's fine.
South Adrea
24-03-2007, 02:50
[QUOTE=Neu Leonstein;12461711]The idea that the ideologically-charged nationstates of the 20th century would willingly compromise their sovereignty in the interest of peace is pretty damn close to it.
QUOTE]

Yeah, we dont all wanna lose our sovereignty and be sucked into an amophous jelly of a state, some of us like our country-deep down. Might appeal to you as your borders are seemingly redrawn every decade or so anyway.

Guess where I'm from!!
The blessed Chris
24-03-2007, 02:52
It's political only. It runs contrary to a lot of things I would like to do and even runs contrary to my being. I would not exist, if nationalism roamed freely, for I would not be me. I like being me, so I will oppose nationalism.

I dislike the state for the same reason I dislike the military. Either may provide me protection, security and stability, but they are the same that will be the ones taking it away from me. Either the state/military that is supposed to protect me, or perhaps even another state/military.

Prosperity is not offered by the state.

You might actually be the most idealistic, naive and whiny poster I have ever had the displeasure of meeting. Really, I've met some morons like Lyric, but you really do piss me off immeasurably.

In any case, the logic in the above is abysmal. You appreciate, and accept, that the facilitators of the life you enjoy, namely, stability, prosperity and security, are the result of the state, yet you oppose it..... brilliant.

As for the state being singularly political, that's self-evidently wrong.
Europa Maxima
24-03-2007, 02:52
The EU does not limit.

Try a Europe without the EU. Just look back a hundred years. That's limiting.

The EU is a step in the right direction. It's part of the longer journey.
No, it's a step towards one massive state, with increasingly less competition between its members (and I do not mean wars). Unless some sort of Constitution arises which severely limits both its powers and its expansion, I long the day that I hear its death knell toll.

And what of 100 years ago? Before WW I many European nations were doing just fabulously.
Greyenivol Colony
24-03-2007, 02:53
:fluffle: Happy 40th birthday E.U:fluffle:

50th...
The blessed Chris
24-03-2007, 02:54
The EU does not limit.

Try a Europe without the EU. Just look back a hundred years. That's limiting.

The EU is a step in the right direction. It's part of the longer journey.

Do note, however, I mentioned less bureaucracy being an important factor in improving the EUs ability - i.e. more local rule. That would reduce it's state similarities.

A hundred years ago European states did essentially as they pleased, to anyone they pleased. How does that constitute "limitation", as opposed to the EU, which consistently precludes the will of "sovereing" government being legislated upon grounds of human rights and other such bilge?
Europa Maxima
24-03-2007, 02:54
However, to apply such a primciple unswervingly is moronic.
It is then incumbent on you to offer some more substantial reasons in support of this supposedly self-evident allure the state possesses. Alone an appeal to authority and stating that something is popular are not sufficient to establish its desirability.

Were someone to evoke such arguments in favour of multiculturalism (and this is indeed possible), would you accept them? Or would you not find them rather arbitrary?
F1 Insanity
24-03-2007, 02:56
You are both wrong, the EU is a great institution, and all European nations benefit greatly from it.

no they don't. Today all EU member states would be better of without it.

What is better? Your own parliament/government make the laws for you, or a bunch of politicians from other countries can gather in a commission or council and force laws upon you that you neither want nor need?

The EU's insane insistence on a 'one size fits all' solution to every problem is a problem in itself. With the Euro currency they have created a potential disaster. Half the Euro countries need a lower interest rate, the other half needs a higher interest rate and no one is pleased with the current interest rate. A typical example how 'one size fits all' fits no one at all.

The HSBC bank stated that the time has come that countries like Italy and Germany would actually be better off outside the Euro. And the Netherlands is coming close to that situation.

And yes, the insane cucumber and banana regulations actually do exist. And they exist for pretty much every foodstuff, specifying what should be in them, what they should look like etc.

Politically speaking, the EU resembles the Soviet Union. It's the rule by appointed commissioners (a self sustaining elite of European politicians) that resembles the politburo. Of course, there is no secret police (not yet, Europol is well on the way) and there is no repression, concentration camps and liquidations. But nevertheless, Gorbachev commented a few years ago on how strange he found it that the EU was copying the Soviet Union's political system of gutting the member states' democracy and giving the power to unelected commissions.

The EU and its legal predecessors have nothing to do with peace. NATO and the cold war all but guaranteed the peace. When the Soviet Union collapsed, the EU started meddling in Yugoslavia which resulted in escalating the war and letting 200,000 Serbs be displaced from Croatia (the largest ethnic cleansing in Europe since 1945 and it was all but encouraged by the EU) and let Bosnia get away with recruiting thousands of muslim terrorists from the Middle East into its armed forces who then proceeded to terrorize Croatians and Serbs. Entire villages were razed by them. The USA and NATO had to bail the EU out.

The open borders are a disaster waiting to happen. Once someone gets into one of the EU countries, they have the right to claim welfare anywhere. Welfare can only work if immigration is limited to those we actually need. If you let too many people into the system who never paid in and will only take out, sooner or later the system will collapse. It won't happen just yet but the first strains are noticeable here and there.

O yes, countries are queuing up to join. Well that is logical, because all candidate memberstates expect to be well paid for it. Would you join a club that promised to hand you a couple of billion euros per year, and all you had to do is sign on the dotted line? What people forget, is that others have to pay those billions. Which they then cannot spend on their own people.
The blessed Chris
24-03-2007, 02:57
It is incumbent on you to offer some more substantial reasons for this supposedly self-evident allure the state has. Alone an appeal to authority and stating that something is popular are not good enough reasons to establish its desirability.

No. Equally, one might make the point that you ought to prove why the state is the opposite, but why bother with such nieceties eh?

As for evidence, I point to any number of conflicts, wherein an embattled populace takes recourse to nationalism and patriotism in desperation, as opposed to any sense of greater human fraternity. Russia 1941, Britian 1940, England 1585, France 1420's. Any more required?
Europa Maxima
24-03-2007, 03:00
No. Equally, one might make the point that you ought to prove why the state is the opposite, but why bother with such nieceties eh?
The burden is on you since you are the one making the positive claim. I have made no claim, yet. Would you accept such arguments in favour of multiculturalism? As I stated in my edited post, they could easily be advanced in its defence.
Europa Maxima
24-03-2007, 03:05
*snip*
I agree - where are you from if I may ask?
Zerania
24-03-2007, 03:05
"The EU gives twice as much aid to developing countries as the United States"

That is a negative. The U.S. is one country, the E.U. is a unity of countries. That is just saying to me that the U.S. is more generous than the many countries in the E.U. I would have to say the U.S. is better than the E.U., and I am a Brit meself. Methinks that joining the E.U. was a bad idea. How else will the U.K. conquer Europe? I guess Europe is turning more pansyish like Canada. Oh well, off to America!
Greater Trostia
24-03-2007, 03:06
Why has the nation endured as a nation if not due to its inherent strengths, and the psychological resonance it has?

"X exists, therefore X is good."

Nice reasoning there pally.
Call to power
24-03-2007, 03:07
It's completely optional, thankfully, so it's your choice whether you want tax money going to it or not. If you don't, you pay less tax.

so its like giving to the church only the state has to be involved so the right wing stays happy and there is a nice stamp on oppression

And what of 100 years ago? Before WW I many European nations were doing just fabulously.

so long as your weren’t a central, eastern, British imperial or one of the nations that was unlucky enough to be near one of the 5 bully states…

50th...

It was a joke that nobody got

A hundred years ago European states did essentially as they pleased, to anyone they pleased.

Yay shelling cities for no good reason, ruthless attacks on those weaker than you, persecution of ethnic groups and a feirce cold war free-for-all
Andaras Prime
24-03-2007, 03:18
I hope that the EU sometime can move after slightly from the Anglo-capitalist model and general principles of neo-liberalism, and move towards a Welfare State bloc model, following the excellent examples of the Scandinavian states. I think over the next few decades as the union becomes more of a Federation than a Confederation, that it will move towards the protectionist Westphalian capitalist welfare model of the Germans and Baltic's. Hopefully this will act as a counter to the 'survival of the richest' fascist corporate model coming from the US, it could also make the EU economically independent.
F1 Insanity
24-03-2007, 03:20
To celebrate, here are 50 reasons why the EU has been a great success, especially for my homeland, Britain:

I am prepared to debate any of these reasons with anyone, tomorrow, since I need my sleep.

those list would be quite funny if they weren't so serious. There are, as I and many will tell you, some serious flaws in that list.

http://timworstall.typepad.com/timworstall/2007/03/50_reasons_to_p.html

1 The end of war between European nations
NATO.

2 Democracy is now flourishing in 27 countries
The fall of communism (USA/cold war).

3 Once-poor countries, such as Ireland, Greece and Portugal, are prospering
So are S Korea, Hong Kong, Malaysia, Thailand etc etc.

4 The creation of the world's largest internal trading market
True. But what about the zollverein? Shouldn't we have free external trade too?

5 Unparalleled rights for European consumers
??

6 Co-operation on continent-wide immigration policy
True

7 Co-operation on crime, through Europol
The application of foreign laws in Britain, including such things as thought crimes (xenophobia), extradition without a court case, trial without jury....these are good things?

8 Laws that make it easier for British people to buy property in Europe
We need the EU for this? It's just as easy to buy in the US you may have noticed.

9 Cleaner beaches and rivers throughout Europe
Could have been done by national law.

10 Four weeks statutory paid holiday a year for workers in Europe
An outrage: contracts should be freely negotiated.

11 No death penalty (it is incompatible with EU membership)
Council of Europe, not the EU.

12 Competition from privatised companies means cheaper phone calls
The privatisation of BT came from the EU?

13 Small EU bureaucracy (24,000 employees, fewer than the BBC)
24,000 too many, and they forget to count the 100s of thousands working in the member states implementing the EU rules

14 Making the French eat British beef again
So?

15 Minority languages, such as Irish, Welsh and Catalan recognised and protected
We need a multi-national bureaucracy to do this?

16 Europe is helping to save the planet with regulatory cuts in CO2
Ho, ho. Let's see it work first, eh?

17 One currency from Bantry to Berlin (but not Britain)
A terrible idea, the EU is not an optimal currency area.

18 Europe-wide travel bans on tyrants such as Zimbabwe's Robert Mugabe
So?

19 The EU gives twice as much aid to developing countries as the United States
Ah, no. The countries of Europe give twice as much in direct government aid as the US. Add in charity, people to people, and the figure is rather different.

20 Strict safety standards for cars, buses and aircraft
We need a multi-national....

21 Free medical help for tourists
We need a....

22 EU peacekeepers operate in trouble spots throughout the world
From national armies actually. NATO also does the same.

23 Europe's single market has brought cheap flights to the masses, and new prosperity for forgotten cities
Surely, boiling the planet?

24 Introduction of pet passports
We need a....

25 It now takes only 2 hrs 35 mins from London to Paris by Eurostar
Not an EU project.

26 Prospect of EU membership has forced modernisation on Turkey
True.

27 Shopping without frontiers gives consumers more power to shape markets
Would if such freedoms were not stifled by regulation.

28 Cheap travel and study programmes means greater mobility for Europe's youth
Err, 7,000 students a year drinking in foreign bars is worth the rest of it?

29 Food labelling is much clearer
We need a....

30 No tiresome border checks (apart from in the UK)
We need a...

31 Compensation for passengers suffering air delays
An idiotic idea anyway and, note that the US also has this, so we need a...

32 Strict ban on animal testing for the cosmetic industry
So?

33 Greater protection for Europe's wildlife
We need a....

34 Regional development fund has aided the deprived parts of Britain
A huge waste of money. Markets work better than bureaucrats.

35 European driving licences recognised across the EU
International driving licences are recognised around the world.

36 Britons now feel a lot less insular
We need a....

37 Europe's bananas remain bent, despite sceptics' fears
No, it is a criminal offense to sell one of excessive curvature.

38 Strong economic growth - greater than the United States last year
Give it time matey.

39 Single market has brought the best continental footballers to Britain
So?

40 Human rights legislation has protected the rights of the individual
Council of Europe, not the EU.

41 European Parliament provides democratic checks on all EU laws
No, it doesn't.

42 EU gives more, not less, sovereignty to nation states
Bollocks.

43 Maturing EU is a proper counterweight to the power of US and China
Power blocks now? A bit 1913 don't you think?

44 European immigration has boosted the British economy
True.

45 Europeans are increasingly multilingual - except Britons, who are less so
We need a....

46 Europe has set Britain an example how properly to fund a national health service
What, like the French? 25% paid by hte patient. Yes, I agree, good system, but nothing to do with the EU.

47 British restaurants now much more cosmopolitan
This is from the beneficience of the EU? Bollocks!

48 Total mobility for career professionals in Europe
True.

49 Europe has revolutionised British attitudes to food and cooking
As 47.

50 Lists like this drive the Eurosceptics mad
No, to despair. All we ask is that there is a cost benefit analysis. Is the above list, most of which is in fact nothing to do with the EU, worth the fishing out of the oceans (CFP), the rape of the consumers pockets (CAP), the continued immiseration of Third World farmers (CAP and the zollverein), well, you know the rest of the list.


So in other words, Tim Worstall, others and I call B.S.

Fact is, we don't need the EU for anything.
F1 Insanity
24-03-2007, 03:24
I hope that the EU sometime can move after slightly from the Anglo-capitalist model and general principles of neo-liberalism, and move towards a Welfare State bloc model, following the excellent examples of the Scandinavian states. I think over the next few decades as the union becomes more of a Federation than a Confederation, that it will move towards the protectionist Westphalian capitalist welfare model of the Germans and Baltic's. Hopefully this will act as a counter to the 'survival of the richest' fascist corporate model coming from the US, it could also make the EU economically independent.

I sure hope not.

But do you realize, in order to have your system, non-western immigrants have to be kept out? A welfare system is largely a closed shop (ie it cannot sustain too many coming in from the outside who never paid into the system).
F1 Insanity
24-03-2007, 03:31
I agree - where are you from if I may ask?

From a small country in the northwest of the continent that utterly rejected the 'draft constitution'. One of the best days in my life, 1st of june 2005 when I voted NO against the EU.

Why I voted no:
-I feel our own parliament and government should make our laws, not foreign politicians.
-With the Euro we were cheated (an extremely unfavorable exchange rate for Netherlands).
-I oppose non-western immigration to the point of not wanting to let people in who do not fully agree with western freedoms and liberties, the EU only makes it easier for them to get here once they manage to sneak into any EU country. We cannot reject them because of EU rules.
-In my business, every day I see the crippling effect the EU bureaucracy and red tape has had on small businesses (84% of legislation is originated in Brussels).
-EU attempts to harmonize taxes would mean I would have to pay more. And I pay enough as it is.

The funny thing was, I feel that the more informed people were about the EU, the more likely they were to vote NO. In countries like Spain, where there was no debate at all. Even more encouraging was that younger people voted NO in a larger percentage than the older. In other words, we are not fooled.
Andaras Prime
24-03-2007, 03:38
I sure hope not.

But do you realize, in order to have your system, non-western immigrants have to be kept out? A welfare system is largely a closed shop (ie it cannot sustain too many coming in from the outside who never paid into the system).
So? It's not like EU has an underpopulation crisis or anything.
Europa Maxima
24-03-2007, 03:43
From a small country in the northwest of the continent that utterly rejected the 'draft constitution'. One of the best days in my life, 1st of june 2005 when I voted NO against the EU.
I remember that. At the time I was very pro-EU. Now I have had a 360 degree turnaround in this regard. If it is to remain, it needs some sort of constitution to limit it. Not that waste of paper that was originally proposed though. For what it's worth, I applaud your "no" vote. :)
Aliquantus
24-03-2007, 03:56
Multi-Culturalism is simply laughable, if you live in someone else’s country you should abide by their culture, not shower them with your beliefs and culture because that is just disrespectful and in a way racist too.
Cookesland
24-03-2007, 04:04
A Happy Big 5-0 to The European Union!!!


http://www.stredocech-eu.cz/data2/dep_30/Kind_mit_Luftballon.jpg




Multi-Culturalism is simply laughable, if you live in someone else’s country you should abide by their culture, not shower them with your beliefs and culture because that is just disrespectful and in a way racist too.

Multiculturalism brings diversity to nations which blends together into one big melting pot.
Similization
24-03-2007, 04:26
No, it's not. It's a success.For whom or what?The changes that are going on because of the EU are enormous and unique in history.The market changes are no different from what happened in the US long before you were born. The political changes are no different from how fascists and authoritarian socialists throughout modern history have organised themselves. But I'll grant you the scale is monumental.Never has there been such peace and prosperity in Europe EVER.The peace has little, if anything at all, to do with the existence of the EU.
The bit about prosperity is a matter of perspective. Some of our countries would be significantly better off, even if some industries wouldn't - and vice versa.Of course there are always some who complain that things are not going as smoothly as they would like, but they really forget what the alternatives would be if things weren't going at all.And what, pray tell, are those?Europe has overcome its divisions and now slowly but steadily a union grows like there has been none in the history of humankind.Yes, we're turning into a neo-Lib version of the US, with an even more rediculously insignificant pseudo-democracy to make our peoples feel like they haven't been completely disenfranchised. I'm wondering why you make it sound like it's a good thing?The people of the EU aspire to improve themselves and the rest of humanity. Something the US have lost on their way.Don't ever crawl out from underneath that rock of yours. The shock of being confronted with the reality of societies in EU memberstates, and in particular, the unelected, unrepresentative junta leading the EU, might just kill you.

We're creating a dystopia. A relatively wealthy one, but a dystopia no less.A Happy Big 5-0 to The European Union!!!I suggest you send your national non-reps a giftwrapped mailbomb with rusty nails and dogshit.Multiculturalism brings diversity to nations which blends together into one big melting pot.Multiculturalism is no different from anarchy, democracy, or any other participatory social norm or organisational form. If an overwhelming majority want it to work, it will. If not, it can't.
Cookesland
24-03-2007, 04:32
I suggest you send your national non-reps a giftwrapped mailbomb with rusty nails and dogshit.

What? :confused:


Multiculturalism is no different from anarchy, democracy, or any other participatory social norm or organisational form. If an overwhelming majority want it to work, it will. If not, it can't.

very true
F1 Insanity
24-03-2007, 04:36
A Happy Big 5-0 to The European Union!!!


http://www.stredocech-eu.cz/data2/dep_30/Kind_mit_Luftballon.jpg


Multiculturalism brings diversity to nations which blends together into one big melting pot.

emm... multiculturalism and the big melting pot are mutually exclusive.

Its either having multiple cultures, or to mix them all together to create one 'melting pot' culture. Multiculturalism, by definition, needs some form of segregation.
Similization
24-03-2007, 04:45
What? :confused: The EU should be an economic union, nothing more. But instead the EU is increasingly usurping our hard won democracies and taking away our ability to participate - or just influence, for that matter - our political systems.

So happy birthday, European Unfree peoples. It's wholly appropriate to mark this day of infamy by sending your representative that nobody elected, a giftwrapped pipebomb full of feces and rusty nails. It is, after all, what they've been doing to us for 50 years now.very trueIf only it wasn't. There's just too many ass-backwards, authoritarian bronze-age types in the world: (

- I'll just go back to giftwrapping the pipebomb. Always cheers me up, it does :cool:
Europa Maxima
24-03-2007, 04:52
The EU should be an economic union, nothing more.
Indeed, although I am not too hostile to the idea of the Member-States coordinating their defence policies in unison - sort of like a series of mutual aid pacts I suppose.
Cookesland
24-03-2007, 04:53
The EU should be an economic union, nothing more. But instead the EU is increasingly usurping our hard won democracies and taking away our ability to participate - or just influence, for that matter - our political systems.

So happy birthday, European Unfree peoples. It's wholly appropriate to mark this day of infamy by sending your representative that nobody elected, a giftwrapped pipebomb full of feces and rusty nails. It is, after all, what they've been doing to us for 50 years now.If only it wasn't. There's just too many ass-backwards, authoritarian bronze-age types in the world: (

- I'll just go back to giftwrapping the pipebomb. Always cheers me up, it does :cool:

you're not a very happy person, are you?

emm... multiculturalism and the big melting pot are mutually exclusive.

Its either having multiple cultures, or to mix them all together to create one 'melting pot' culture. Multiculturalism, by definition, needs some form of segregation.

Well there are still alot of ethnic neighborhood and places that have customs and yeah they might be a little separated from one another, but they can all still live in one country. Just look at The US...
Similization
24-03-2007, 06:07
emm... multiculturalism and the big melting pot are mutually exclusive.

Its either having multiple cultures, or to mix them all together to create one 'melting pot' culture. Multiculturalism, by definition, needs some form of segregation.Not true. The idea is the peoples and cultures will accept a socio-political framework that neither gives preference, nor discriminates. This would allow different cultural groups to seperate or merge as the individuals pleases, for the benefit of both cultural 'purists' and 'melting pot' fans.

The problem, in practice, is threefold. There is - presently - no socio-political framework anywhere that truely doesn't give either preferential treatement, distciminates or both. Cultural 'purists' simply won't tolerate a socio-political framework that doesn't give preferential treatment to their group, and 'melting pot' fanboys (and girls) refuse to acknowledge the 'purists' have every right not to come 'melt' with them.

The scale and character of the conflicts in various countries, obviously vary a great deal. But the root problematics are universal.Indeed, although I am not too hostile to the idea of the Member-States coordinating their defence policies in unison - sort of like a series of mutual aid pacts I suppose.For us to employ common tools and authorities (like the military or law enforcement), we need common democratic control. The EU does not, and should not offer any such thing. We do not need to further divorce the state from the governed.

We should be moving in the opposite direction. We're better informed and have far better means of communication now than we've ever had. We need to take the political process closer to the ones governed by it, not take it away.you're not a very happy person, are you?Sure I am. Extremely happy, in fact, and not only that, I'm a very lucky person as well. If the right stranger hadn't by chance engaged me in a bit of smalltalk after meeting he wasn't supposed to have been at, our beloved Schengen would've prevented my SO and I from moving in together.

Considering we'd exhausted all conventional avenues, I think it'd probably be accurate to describe me as ecstatic, or perhaps floating on fluffy little clouds with a dazed, blissful smile on my face. I just also happen to think you'd have to be completely unhinged to think the European Unfreedom project is worth persuing.
UN Protectorates
24-03-2007, 11:46
those list would be quite funny if they weren't so serious. There are, as I and many will tell you, some serious flaws in that list.

http://timworstall.typepad.com/timworstall/2007/03/50_reasons_to_p.html



So in other words, Tim Worstall, others and I call B.S.

Fact is, we don't need the EU for anything.


I knew someone would google this stupid list. All of Tim Douchebags's points are null and void. If you read the thing, most of his points aren't even points, just "So's?" and "So we need..." and the occasional "Bollocks!". One or two word answers with no real backing. Give me a while, and I will tear this piss poor list to pieces.
Risottia
24-03-2007, 12:34
The EU is not a miracle.

50 years of actual cooperation and friendship between France and Germany are a close call, though.

Yay for EU!
...did I ever mention that Russia's destiny lies within Europe? Yes, I did.;)
Neu Leonstein
24-03-2007, 12:40
Guess where I'm from!!
Hmm, maybe it's a country that has been wronged by the German State in the past...

...


...


D'oh! :p

no they don't. Today all EU member states would be better of without it.
That's just plain silly.

The HSBC bank stated that the time has come that countries like Italy and Germany would actually be better off outside the Euro. And the Netherlands is coming close to that situation.
Which was the case a few years ago. It's not anymore, because the economic situation has turned around, and the common interest rate now actually helps the German economy. But you were right, a while ago it was hurting it somewhat.

Not as much of course as tariff barriers and increased costs of intra-European trade.

But what about the zollverein?
It actually formed the economic foundation for something that was considered quite impossible before it...the unification of the German States, which were all considered to have quite unique cultural and political histories and achievements, plus seperate and sovereign governments.

People forget too easily that "Germany" was for a very long time a rather meaningless feel-good sort of word with no political or economic meaning. Much like...well, "Europe".
German Nightmare
24-03-2007, 12:40
Holland, Switzerland and Denmark all show some promises...
Nice try, except that Holland is only part of the Netherlands and Switzerland ain't even part of the European Union. :rolleyes:

Anyway, yay for the E.U. and may the next 50 years continue to be a story of success!
http://www.studip.uni-goettingen.de/pictures/smile/europa.gif
Risottia
24-03-2007, 12:58
Switzerland ain't even part of the European Union. :rolleyes:


The Swiss are bound to join. It will take time, but in the end, via the two-parts agreement, Die Schweiz will join the EU. I think that the only anti-EU in the Swiss politics is Blocher, the other parties are in favour (each in his own way of course).
Alexandrian Ptolemais
24-03-2007, 13:16
Let us be honest, the European Union is an idiotic organisation. What I am surprised about is that everyone is forgotten the negative trade implications. It may be all well and good that they give twice the aid to Third World countries than the United States, but they cause the poverty.

The EU must be idiotic when they give cows more money per day than two billion people earn. It must be idiotic when cold Europe is the world's second largest sugar producer (after Brazil), and when you even find sugar grown in Finland of all places.

The EU must be idiotic when they engage in tit-for-tat trade arguments with the United States. Be done with it already and get rid of the stupid tariffs, quotas, subsidies, and really idiotic health regulations (I am not kidding, some of them are deliberately designed to stop foreign goods from coming in).

Oh, and Fonterra is not NZ government owned - if the EU thinks that, then Brussels is obviously occupied by a bunch of idiots. Maybe once they ditch their idiocy, then there will be no need for aid because the Third World will be rolling in cash because of their access to European markets.

Unhappy 50th, and I hope that it doesn't last for the next 50 (although, I am certain that it will survive).
The Atlantian islands
24-03-2007, 13:19
The Swiss are bound to join. It will take time, but in the end, via the two-parts agreement, Die Schweiz will join the EU. I think that the only anti-EU in the Swiss politics is Blocher, the other parties are in favour (each in his own way of course).
Actually..no...they are not "bound to join"...there are many reasons why the Swiss don't want to join. They will lose their unique identiy, Swiss farmers will die, they wont get to choose their neutrality policiy, they will lose money and immigration will be more open.

Blocher is NOT the only Swiss to be anti-EU...I know this for a fact. My brother is Swiss.:p

Nice try, except that Holland is only part of the Netherlands and Switzerland ain't even part of the European Union. :rolleyes:
Yes..but Holland, while only being the North of Netherlands...is interchangable now a days with Netherlands...don't blame me, blame the way English is used...and Dutch people that I know also call it Holland, in English. Surely you can find something else to argue about.:p
And to Switzerland, I know it isnt..obviously....if you read my previous posts..but we were talking about EUROPE as a whole..and Europe does NOT equal the European Union, not just yet.
The Atlantian islands
24-03-2007, 13:29
emm... multiculturalism and the big melting pot are mutually exclusive.

Its either having multiple cultures, or to mix them all together to create one 'melting pot' culture. Multiculturalism, by definition, needs some form of segregation.
On multiculturalism:
http://wolfgangbruno.blogspot.com/2005/10/multiculturalism-tribalism-recycled.html
Quantum Bonus
24-03-2007, 14:15
The EU is a step in the right direction, albeit a small and unsteady one. many of the laws leave much of the populous with a feeling of powerlessness, considering the Police cannot use force to detain a suspect. It can, but the law states "reasonable force", and that is a wide statement. It leaves police officers uncertain of what this is, and therefore scared of being put on trial for assault if it is deemed they used "reasonable force".

It also makes life easier for businesses, which in itself is a good thing, but the EU leaves out the right of nationals, and encompasses illegal immigrants and criminals in it's Human Rights laws. We cannot now use force to expel persons deemed to be in the country illegally, as it is against Human Rights. Criminals and illegal immigrants are getting the same rights as law abiding citizens, which is silly. I'm all for banning torture and not beating criminals within an inch of their lives, but when we can't beat a dangerous criminal to the ground when he tries to attack someone or get away, it's getting out of hand.

I'm no expert on the EU and have probably just made a complete arse of myself, but oh well. :D I'm all for unity, but not at this cost.
Johnny B Goode
24-03-2007, 14:34
I think this is a pretty good article:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,473599,00.html


I think it's easy to forget the revolutionary nature of the project when confronted with the part boring, part infuriating everyday business in Brussels. I mean, when the EU was started in its earliest incarnations, Europe had basically no hope whatsoever of ending the 2000 years of conflict that preceded it. It's only been 50 years, but the important thing is that its framework has contributed a lot to a situation where it's basically impossible to even conceive a situation where war could flare up once again within the EU. Not to mention that the dismantling of borders is a good thing in and for itself.

But what do you think? Have the past 50 years been worth it (this German article (http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/0,1518,471978,00.html) suggests it certainly was)? And where do you see the EU heading? What would be your wishlist?

Happy birthday.
Cabra West
24-03-2007, 14:34
The EU is not a miracle.

It is to me. And one of the best miracles to ever have happened to me, too. :D
Seathornia
24-03-2007, 14:48
A hundred years ago European states did essentially as they pleased, to anyone they pleased. How does that constitute "limitation", as opposed to the EU, which consistently precludes the will of "sovereing" government being legislated upon grounds of human rights and other such bilge?

Limiting states = good.

The EU does not limit its citizens, it limits the states within it. The states willfully agree to being limited in this manner, if you regard it as limiting.

You might actually be the most idealistic, naive and whiny poster I have ever had the displeasure of meeting. Really, I've met some morons like Lyric, but you really do piss me off immeasurably.

In any case, the logic in the above is abysmal. You appreciate, and accept, that the facilitators of the life you enjoy, namely, stability, prosperity and security, are the result of the state, yet you oppose it..... brilliant.

As for the state being singularly political, that's self-evidently wrong.

Well, good bye and have a nice day :) Really, I see no reason to discuss with people who are just using ad hominem as their primary (first) argument.

I will say, however, that were it not for states giving up some of their supposed rights that you and TIA seem to be pushing for, I would not be here.

The state is never a benefactor. At best, it will be a mutual cooperation. The state is not a gaurantee of security and stability and it does not provide prosperity.

My reasons were political.

But, as I said, I won't be discussing any further with you, since your first argument was made of fail and I am not interested in talking to someone who can't stick to the discussion without resorting immediately to ad hominem.

No, it's a step towards one massive state, with increasingly less competition between its members (and I do not mean wars). Unless some sort of Constitution arises which severely limits both its powers and its expansion, I long the day that I hear its death knell toll.

And what of 100 years ago? Before WW I many European nations were doing just fabulously.

Still talking about the limiting factor. Freedom of movement, along with many other freedoms, were not existant a hundred years ago to the degree that they are today.

Also, I already stated my disdain for European bureaucracy. One massive state is not the direction I want to go in. As an analogy: If the west is a massive state and the north is the freedoms granted to me by the EU (through the other states giving up their rights), then the EU has taken a step to the northwest. It's in the right direction, but it could be better.
Neu Leonstein
24-03-2007, 14:57
On multiculturalism:
http://wolfgangbruno.blogspot.com/2005/10/multiculturalism-tribalism-recycled.html
I smell burning straw...
Cookesland
24-03-2007, 15:23
Sure I am. Extremely happy, in fact, and not only that, I'm a very lucky person as well. If the right stranger hadn't by chance engaged me in a bit of smalltalk after meeting he wasn't supposed to have been at, our beloved Schengen would've prevented my SO and I from moving in together.

Considering we'd exhausted all conventional avenues, I think it'd probably be accurate to describe me as ecstatic, or perhaps floating on fluffy little clouds with a dazed, blissful smile on my face. I just also happen to think you'd have to be completely unhinged to think the European Unfreedom project is worth persuing.

ummm maybe that wasn't the right word, i probably just said cynical instead of not happy. Even though the two of them intertwine quite often...
Drunk commies deleted
24-03-2007, 15:52
What? Immigrants are certainly treated better in the EU than they are in the US and pretty much anywhere else in the world, and what's that stuff about no culture?

Not true. Legal immigrants in the US are treated just fine.
Saxnot
24-03-2007, 15:58
Vive l'Union!
Domici
24-03-2007, 16:00
Calling a duck a duck isn't an ad hominem.

It is if you argue that it's a duck by saying "it must be a duck because it's a fat fucking asshole."

Calling someone else clueless as evidence to support your claim that the EU is a "shithole" is an ad hominem attack because whether he is clueless or not does nothing to establish the shittiness of the EU.
Domici
24-03-2007, 16:10
Not true. Legal immigrants in the US are treated just fine.

It's just that it's getting harder and harder to be a legal immigrant.

It's like arguing that murderers deserve no justice and should be sentenced to summary execution.

Then when you've got that established you argue that if you try to murder someone, you are a murderer, just not a successful one. Much the same way that a lawyer who has never won a case is still a lawyer. Then attempted-murderers get summary execution.

Then you argue that negligence in preserving the lives of others is as good as murder, like driving while talking on a cellphone and causing an accident. So driving while talking on a cellphone is now attempted murder.

But since you create that situation by bringing your cellphone, driving with a cellphone in the car should be considered attempted murder.

If you don't want to be pulled out of your car and shot dead by a policeman, then don't bring your cellphone. Our justice system treats everyone fairly, and murderers who drive around with cellphones get what they deserve.

Yes, I am exaggerating the severity with which immigrants are treated in this country, but not the way they are pigeonholed.

http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/070321/w032130A.html

We do not treat immigrants fairly. We don't treat anyone fairly.
Rubiconic Crossings
24-03-2007, 17:03
I tolerated the move from the EEC to the EU...I could understand that it was to ensure a strong Europe in the face of Asian and American trade.

The 'Enlargement' however...I am not a happy chappy with that under present conditions...
UN Protectorates
24-03-2007, 19:13
I tolerated the move from the EEC to the EU...I could understand that it was to ensure a strong Europe in the face of Asian and American trade.

The 'Enlargement' however...I am not a happy chappy with that under present conditions...

Do you mean the former Soviet Bloc countries that joined the EU? Romania and Bulgaria?
Europa Maxima
24-03-2007, 19:24
It's in the right direction, but it could be better.
When it restricts itself to nothing more than an economic union I'll be more enthusiastic about it.
Chamoi
24-03-2007, 19:26
Although there are some elements of the EU that I cannot stand, I have to admit that there are many areas where it simply makes life easier for everyone.

I'm english and i know that the clean air and water laws introduced in the 1970's after our entering the EU would not have been done by our own governments. I also enjoy the co operation between nations so that for example we have GSM phones what work in all the countries, or that I can travel in most areas of europe with little or no fuss at all.

IMO that is where the future of the EU lies, taking the big issues which need regional soltions and making them happen. A good example of this is the latest agreement for reduction in CO2 and improving the enviroment.

I think there are a lot of english out there that want to see the end of the EU but simply are too ignorent to see the good that it is capable of and does often.
Rubiconic Crossings
24-03-2007, 19:26
Do you mean the former Soviet Bloc countries that joined the EU? Romania and Bulgaria?

yeah...pretty much. I have no issue with close ties and trade...but the larger the EU becomes the less accountable it is...even less so than it is now...
NorthNorthumberland
24-03-2007, 19:32
From a farmer’s point of view, and a British point of view, the EU is the worst thing since the French.
For a start the prices that farmers get for their produce has made farming a worthless occupation financially. This is compared with pre British EU entry into the EU when farmers were considered some of the wealthiest people in the country. And they did this for the poorer countries that don’t deserve it. A prime example of this would be my family, who were dairy farmers for 3 generations but because of the EU the British milk quota was abolished and we were losing £1000 a week. Only surviving because of townies that think they can ride, and pay a good amount of money to prove it,

Also because of the EU new Health & Safety laws have been put into practice that assume that all people are clinically retarded and have no common sense, and that doing the same thing your whole life means nothing.

The 3rd thing is that since New Labour have come into power in this country 7,500 new laws have been passed, out of them around 80-90% are simply busy body pointless laws that were only enacted to keep in-line with the EU.

Supporters of the EU, most of the people on nation states and annoying left wingers believe that being all of one union, losing our national identity and being more like our European counterparts is a good thing. But the fact is most British people don’t want to be part of Europe or America, equally. Great Britain was doing just fine before we started medalling in European affairs just before the Great War.

P.S If you honestly think that the EU brings states together, look at Chiraque and Blair.
UN Protectorates
24-03-2007, 19:34
yeah...pretty much. I have no issue with close ties and trade...but the larger the EU becomes the less accountable it is...even less so than it is now...

But thier membership in the EU brings economic prosperity to Romania and Bulgaria, whilst persuading those ,and surrounding, countries, such as Turkey, to institute reforms to bring more stable democracy, civil freedom and liberty to the thier peoples.
Rubiconic Crossings
24-03-2007, 19:39
But thier membership in the EU brings economic prosperity to Romania and Bulgaria, whilst persuading those ,and surrounding, countries, such as Turkey, to institute reforms to bring more stable democracy, civil freedom and liberty to the thier peoples.

Bollocks.

It brings pork and corruption.

institute reforms to bring more stable democracy, civil freedom and liberty to the thier peoples

All hail the UN.
Europa Maxima
24-03-2007, 19:39
But thier membership in the EU brings economic prosperity to Romania and Bulgaria, whilst persuading those ,and surrounding, countries, such as Turkey, to institute reforms to bring more stable democracy, civil freedom and liberty to the thier peoples.
How is this any consolation to a UK citizen who must now put up with more bureaucracy and unresponsive government (the EU is even worse than Labour)?
NorthNorthumberland
24-03-2007, 19:42
But thier membership in the EU brings economic prosperity to Romania and Bulgaria, whilst persuading those ,and surrounding, countries, such as Turkey, to institute reforms to bring more stable democracy, civil freedom and liberty to the thier peoples.

1. They gat that prosperity at the taxpayers expense of the richer countries, why should they?

2. What if the Turkish government didn’t want a stable democracy, civil freedom and liberty to the their peoples? Why should we force our method of doing things on anybody when it doesn’t benefit us in the slightest?
UN Protectorates
24-03-2007, 19:43
All hail the UN.

I am glad that you have finally come around, comrade. Now deploy the Black Helicopters and wake up our sleeper cells within the US congress, and inform Prince Philip and the Kingdom of Isles organisation to begin using their Commonwealth friends in the General Assembly to vote for the creation of a UN army, so that we may install Kofi Annan as World Secretary-General.

Oh... And get me the Illuminati and the corpse of Ted Kennedy on the line.
NorthNorthumberland
24-03-2007, 19:46
I am glad that you have finally come around, comrade. Now deploy the Black Helicopters and wake up our sleeper cells within the US congress, and inform Prince Philip and the Kingdom of Isles organisation to begin using their Commonwealth friends in the General Assembly to vote for the creation of a UN army, so that we may install Kofi Annan as World Secretary-General.

Oh... And get me the Illuminati and the corpse of Ted Kennedy on the line.

And the point in that was? The UN brings security to the world with out trying to interfere in the lives of normal people for no good reason.
Rubiconic Crossings
24-03-2007, 19:46
From a farmer’s point of view, and a British point of view, the EU is the worst thing since the French.
For a start the prices that farmers get for their produce has made farming a worthless occupation financially. This is compared with pre British EU entry into the EU when farmers were considered some of the wealthiest people in the country. And they did this for the poorer countries that don’t deserve it. A prime example of this would be my family, who were dairy farmers for 3 generations but because of the EU the British milk quota was abolished and we were losing £1000 a week. Only surviving because of townies that think they can ride, and pay a good amount of money to prove it,

Also because of the EU new Health & Safety laws have been put into practice that assume that all people are clinically retarded and have no common sense, and that doing the same thing your whole life means nothing.

The 3rd thing is that since New Labour have come into power in this country 7,500 new laws have been passed, out of them around 80-90% are simply busy body pointless laws that were only enacted to keep in-line with the EU.

Supporters of the EU, most of the people on nation states and annoying left wingers believe that being all of one union, losing our national identity and being more like our European counterparts is a good thing. But the fact is most British people don’t want to be part of Europe or America, equally. Great Britain was doing just fine before we started medalling in European affairs just before the Great War.

P.S If you honestly think that the EU brings states together, look at Chiraque and Blair.

errrr.....I think your timeline is a fux0red there mate...

But besides that don't forget that UK farming is no longer based around tenant or family farms....the majority of UK farm land (that breaks even or is profitable) is held by massive agri biz concerns...

Personally I'd rather see our farmers (proper farmers like you and your family) get state money than buying a new nuke system.

I'd also like to see our farmers get back to proper traditional methods instead of this intensive farming insanity.

I know we went down the cheap food route because of the war but the cost now is too high...bad cooking habits and bad food is ruining the nations health.
UN Protectorates
24-03-2007, 19:47
And the point in that was? The UN brings security to the world with out trying to interfere in the lives of normal people for no good reason.

It was called a joke, my friend. If you didn't know I am a very strong supporter of the UN.
Rubiconic Crossings
24-03-2007, 19:51
I am glad that you have finally come around, comrade. Now deploy the Black Helicopters and wake up our sleeper cells within the US congress, and inform Prince Philip and the Kingdom of Isles organisation to begin using their Commonwealth friends in the General Assembly to vote for the creation of a UN army, so that we may install Kofi Annan as World Secretary-General.

Oh... And get me the Illuminati and the corpse of Ted Kennedy on the line.

ok...I'm not sure what you are trying to say here but it was pretty funny!

I've always been a supporter of the UN actually...not too keen on the SC though...too much power in such a small group...

Kofi Annan...what again?

I can think of a few other more suitable persons...

me for starters ;)
NorthNorthumberland
24-03-2007, 19:58
errrr.....I think your timeline is a fux0red there mate...

But besides that don't forget that UK farming is no longer based around tenant or family farms....the majority of UK farm land (that breaks even or is profitable) is held by massive agri biz concerns...

Personally I'd rather see our farmers (proper farmers like you and your family) get state money than buying a new nuke system.

I'd also like to see our farmers get back to proper traditional methods instead of this intensive farming insanity.

I know we went down the cheap food route because of the war but the cost now is too high...bad cooking habits and bad food is ruining the nations health.
I encore you on your enthusiasm, and think you have good intentions but are a bit misguided. Farming is still very much biased around tenant farmers who pay rent, normally to someone like a duke or indeed a business. But the landlords general have very little say in how the tenants run their farms. Also I not think farmers shouldn’t get state money. But I think the government should make it so that farmer’s don’t need state money by raising the prices farmers get for food. My last thought is that the need for trident is much greater than the plight of the farmers.
UN Protectorates
24-03-2007, 20:00
ok...I'm not sure what you are trying to say here but it was pretty funny!

I've always been a supporter of the UN actually...not too keen on the SC though...too much power in such a small group...

Kofi Annan...what again?

I can think of a few other more suitable persons...

me for starters ;)

Yay! Someone appreciates my sense of humour. But you'll need to compete with me for Secretary-General.

I totally agree that the UNSC is too overpowered. That's why I advocate a UN Parliamentary Assembly to replace the General Assembly, expand the UNSC members, scrap all vetos.


Anyway, we're going off topic. With economic prosperity and democracy coming to Eastern Europe and Turkey, not only will the peoples of those countries be better off, we shall benefit economically via trade and culturally as more Eastern Europeans are allowed to travel throughout Europe.

It also takes away the Iron-fisted influence away from Russia, which still wields considerable influence over eastern europe even after the Iron Curtain dropped. This way we are simply sweeping away Cold War isolation for good.
Rubiconic Crossings
24-03-2007, 20:11
I encore you on your enthusiasm, and think you have good intentions but are a bit misguided. Farming is still very much biased around tenant farmers who pay rent, normally to someone like a duke or indeed a business. But the landlords general have very little say in how the tenants run their farms. Also I not think farmers shouldn’t get state money. But I think the government should make it so that farmer’s don’t need state money by raising the prices farmers get for food. My last thought is that the need for trident is much greater than the plight of the farmers.

Well that might well be the case in Northhumberland...but in Suffolk, Norfolk and Kent it certainly is not.

If you raise the cost of food...you will need to raise wages as well.
Europa Maxima
24-03-2007, 20:15
If you raise the cost of food...you will need to raise wages as well.
Indeed. Complaining about the EU's protectionist policies with regard to farmers, then demanding that the UK enforce these via price controls is a tad hypocritical.
Alexandrian Ptolemais
24-03-2007, 23:43
From a farmer’s point of view, and a British point of view, the EU is the worst thing since the French.
For a start the prices that farmers get for their produce has made farming a worthless occupation financially. This is compared with pre British EU entry into the EU when farmers were considered some of the wealthiest people in the country. And they did this for the poorer countries that don’t deserve it. A prime example of this would be my family, who were dairy farmers for 3 generations but because of the EU the British milk quota was abolished and we were losing £1000 a week. Only surviving because of townies that think they can ride, and pay a good amount of money to prove it,

Also because of the EU new Health & Safety laws have been put into practice that assume that all people are clinically retarded and have no common sense, and that doing the same thing your whole life means nothing.

The 3rd thing is that since New Labour have come into power in this country 7,500 new laws have been passed, out of them around 80-90% are simply busy body pointless laws that were only enacted to keep in-line with the EU.

Supporters of the EU, most of the people on nation states and annoying left wingers believe that being all of one union, losing our national identity and being more like our European counterparts is a good thing. But the fact is most British people don’t want to be part of Europe or America, equally. Great Britain was doing just fine before we started medalling in European affairs just before the Great War.

P.S If you honestly think that the EU brings states together, look at Chiraque and Blair.

Whopdee fregging do - why don't you look at what happened down in the colonies, and specifically to our farmers.

First of all, we lost our guaranteed market in the 1970s when Britain joined the EEC and although we had been given enough time to adjust, it was still a problem. Then our farmers (particularly sheep farmers) had to suffer in the 1980s when their subsidies disappeared overnight in the face of pressure from guess who?

The hypocritical frogs

These farmers left their farms in droves and one of the rural banks even ended up going bankrupt because they had foreclosed on worthless properties. However, ins spite of all this, today, the New Zealand farmer is the most efficient in the Western world and can make a profit in spite of the myriads of stupid subsidies, tariffs, quotas and other barriers placed by the United States and Europe.

As I said before, it is time to ditch the barriers to trade. When a cow earns more than two billion people, you know that something is wrong.
Rubiconic Crossings
25-03-2007, 00:37
Yay! Someone appreciates my sense of humour. But you'll need to compete with me for Secretary-General.

I totally agree that the UNSC is too overpowered. That's why I advocate a UN Parliamentary Assembly to replace the General Assembly, expand the UNSC members, scrap all vetos.


Anyway, we're going off topic. With economic prosperity and democracy coming to Eastern Europe and Turkey, not only will the peoples of those countries be better off, we shall benefit economically via trade and culturally as more Eastern Europeans are allowed to travel throughout Europe.

It also takes away the Iron-fisted influence away from Russia, which still wields considerable influence over eastern europe even after the Iron Curtain dropped. This way we are simply sweeping away Cold War isolation for good.

Humour is in the ear of the listener ;)

Scrape vetos...heh....that wold really rather set the cats amongst the pigeons...even more so with a expanded SC...

Economic prosperity in 'Eastern Europe' and Turkey...its possible...but democracy...I don't see it. I see people so poor that they could really not give two hoots to voting as it does not help them there and then....I suspect they rather regard the idea as a pipe dream...
NorthNorthumberland
25-03-2007, 09:19
Whopdee fregging do - why don't you look at what happened down in the colonies, and specifically to our farmers.

First of all, we lost our guaranteed market in the 1970s when Britain joined the EEC and although we had been given enough time to adjust, it was still a problem. Then our farmers (particularly sheep farmers) had to suffer in the 1980s when their subsidies disappeared overnight in the face of pressure from guess who?

The hypocritical frogs

These farmers left their farms in droves and one of the rural banks even ended up going bankrupt because they had foreclosed on worthless properties. However, ins spite of all this, today, the New Zealand farmer is the most efficient in the Western world and can make a profit in spite of the myriads of stupid subsidies, tariffs, quotas and other barriers placed by the United States and Europe.

As I said before, it is time to ditch the barriers to trade. When a cow earns more than two billion people, you know that something is wrong.

And British farmers dont have to cope with myriads of stupid subsidies, tariffs, quotas and other barriers placed by the United States and Europe. They have to cope with that and all the red tape from the EU.
Alexandrian Ptolemais
25-03-2007, 11:43
And British farmers dont have to cope with myriads of stupid subsidies, tariffs, quotas and other barriers placed by the United States and Europe. They have to cope with that and all the red tape from the EU.

They are part of the EU - they get the subsidies. Our farmers get absolutely zilch and they still turn over a profit.
Soleichunn
25-03-2007, 12:19
It's more of an ideological thing for me.

I dislike the idea of a state.

I do not hate it, important distinction. I do hate nationalism.

It's the whole limiting factor.

I sort of dislike nationalism. I do severely dislike ethnic nationalism though.

Hooray for the (non-unitary) State. Down with war also.
Neu Leonstein
25-03-2007, 12:27
The full text of the 'Berlin Declaration'. Pope Benedict isn't too happy that god doesn't get a shout-out, but I reckon the old man will live.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article1559376.ece
Europe was for centuries an Idea, a hope for freedom and understanding. This hope has been fulfilled. European unity has enabled us to live in peace and prosperity. It has created a community and overcome differences. Every member has helped to unite Europe and to strengthen democracy, the rule of law. We have to thank the love of freedom of the people of central and eastern Europe that Europe’s unnatural divisions are today finally overcome. With European unity, we have learned the lessons from our bloody conflicts and painful history. We live today together in a way that was never previously possible. We citizens of the European Union are united in our good fortune.

Section 1

In the European Union we realise our common ideals: for us the individual is central. His dignity is inviolable. His rights are inalienable. Women and men have equal rights. We strive for peace and freedom, for democracy and the rule of law, for mutual respect and responsibility, for prosperity and security, for tolerance and participation, justice and solidarity. We live and function together in the European Union in a unique way. This expresses itself in the democratic co-operation of member states and European institutions. The European Union is based on equal rights and solidarity. That is how we make possible a fair balance of interests between the member states. We uphold in the European Union the individuality and the diverse traditions of its members. The open frontiers and the lively diversity of languages, cultures and regions enrich us. Many goals cannot be achieved independently but only through common action. The European Union, the member states and their regions and local communities share these tasks.

Section 2

We face great challenges which cannot be confined to national frontiers. The European Union is our answer to them. Only together can we preserve our European social model in the future to the benefit of all citizens in the European Union. This European model unites economic success and social responsibility. The common market and the euro make us strong.

That is how we can shape the increasing worldwide interdependency of the economy and ever expanding competition on international markets according to our values. Europe’s wealth lies in the knowledge and abilities of its people; this is the key to growth, employment and social cohesion. We will jointly fight terrorism and organised crime. We will also defend our freedom and civil rights against their enemies. Racism and xenophobia must never again be given their chance. We will act to ensure that conflicts in the world are solved peacefully and that people do not become victims of war, terrorism or violence.

The European Union will promote freedom and development in the world. We want to push back poverty, hunger and disease. In doing so, we will continue to play a leading role. In energy policy and protection of the climate we want to go forward together and make our contribution to heading off the global threat of climate change.

Section 3

The European Union will continue to live in the future on the basis of its openness and the will of its members to strengthen together the inner development of the European Union. The European Union will continue to promote democracy, stability and prosperity beyond its frontiers. European unity has made reality out of a dream nurtured by earlier generations. Our history warns us that we have to protect this good fortune for future generations. We must continue to renew and update the political shape of Europe. That is why, 50 years after the signing of the Treaties of Rome, we are today united in the goal of achieving a renewed common foundation for the European Union before the elections to the European Parliament in 2009.

Because we know: Europe is our common future.
Fassigen
25-03-2007, 13:08
We have to thank the love of freedom of the people of central and eastern Europe

Well, gee, I guess everyone else is chopped liver.
Similization
25-03-2007, 13:38
Well, gee, I guess everyone else is chopped liver.*Tsk* Fass, you know perfectly well the 'other people' are just a resource for us. With the possible exceptions of the Japanese, Americans, Canadians and Australians, they aren't really people anyway, so it's not like what we're doing is bad. Right?

*Gags and chokes to death on mercantilism*
NorthNorthumberland
25-03-2007, 15:04
They are part of the EU - they get the subsidies. Our farmers get absolutely zilch and they still turn over a profit. For you information we have just lost our farmers subsides. And once again, the farms in New Zealand tend to be many thousands of acres. In the UK there normally 1-3 thousand acres.
Seathornia
25-03-2007, 15:15
When it restricts itself to nothing more than an economic union I'll be more enthusiastic about it.

And with this, I agree.

Bureaucracy unfortunately follows, as you'll note many countries trying to impose tolls one way or another. And you have to avoid hurting the green initiatives too, so it all gets very bureaucratic and bah!
Alexandrian Ptolemais
26-03-2007, 05:02
For you information we have just lost our farmers subsides. And once again, the farms in New Zealand tend to be many thousands of acres. In the UK there normally 1-3 thousand acres.

Depends on which part of the country you go to. These days, many of our farms are not that large (maybe 10,000 acres at the most). Anyways, I hope that the ditching of subsidies in that part of the world will mean that finally we will have New Zealand butter, lamb and so on in greater quantities in Europe.

*eagerly looks forward to plunging deficit
Soleichunn
26-03-2007, 05:41
And with this, I agree.

Bureaucracy unfortunately follows, as you'll note many countries trying to impose tolls one way or another. And you have to avoid hurting the green initiatives too, so it all gets very bureaucratic and bah!

Bureucracy isn't necessarily all bad.
Seathornia
26-03-2007, 10:11
Bureucracy isn't necessarily all bad.

I know, but it does get rather tiresome.
Iztatepopotla
26-03-2007, 16:23
Happy Birthday, EU!

Where's the cake?
Pure Metal
26-03-2007, 16:34
I think this is a pretty good article:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,473599,00.html


I think it's easy to forget the revolutionary nature of the project when confronted with the part boring, part infuriating everyday business in Brussels. I mean, when the EU was started in its earliest incarnations, Europe had basically no hope whatsoever of ending the 2000 years of conflict that preceded it. It's only been 50 years, but the important thing is that its framework has contributed a lot to a situation where it's basically impossible to even conceive a situation where war could flare up once again within the EU. Not to mention that the dismantling of borders is a good thing in and for itself.


i totally agree. happy (belated) birthday EU! :) :) :fluffle:

it may not be perfect, but its a shitload better than nothing
NorthNorthumberland
26-03-2007, 18:51
Depends on which part of the country you go to. These days, many of our farms are not that large (maybe 10,000 acres at the most). Anyways, I hope that the ditching of subsidies in that part of the world will mean that finally we will have New Zealand butter, lamb and so on in greater quantities in Europe.

*eagerly looks forward to plunging deficit

10,000 acres is large for a single farm by British comparison. I doubt that more quantities of New Zealand produce will end up in Europe as local produce is becoming more and more popular, food from 3rd world countries is cheaper and there are huge amounts of food available from America.