NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/20/science/20moral.html?ex=1332043200&en=84f902cc81da9173&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

First spears, now morality. Pretty soon they'll watch Planet of the Apes and get ideas.

:p

Dr. de Waal sees human morality as having grown out of primate sociality, but with two extra levels of sophistication. People enforce their society’s moral codes much more rigorously with rewards, punishments and reputation building. They also apply a degree of judgment and reason, for which there are no parallels in animals.

Religion can be seen as another special ingredient of human societies, though one that emerged thousands of years after morality, in Dr. de Waal’s view. There are clear precursors of morality in nonhuman primates, but no precursors of religion. So it seems reasonable to assume that as humans evolved away from chimps, morality emerged first, followed by religion. “I look at religions as recent additions,” he said. “Their function may have to do with social life, and enforcement of rules and giving a narrative to them, which is what religions really do.”

As Dr. de Waal sees it, human morality may be severely limited by having evolved as a way of banding together against adversaries, with moral restraints being observed only toward the in group, not toward outsiders. “The profound irony is that our noblest achievement — morality — has evolutionary ties to our basest behavior — warfare,” he writes. “The sense of community required by the former was provided by the latter.”

This part is particularly interesting, in light of the whole "religion and war" debate that seems to rage here so often. Interesting indeed.

oh you mean Chimps, i thought you were talking about humans :rolleyes:

We'd best eat them now, before they get any ideas.

Its an interesting article.

I agree biologists should study morality. Unfortunaly, psychology and philosophy need biological knowledge to create new theories and have something concrete to work upon.

Some animals are more inclined to co-operative behaviour than others. It's just another survival instinct - the survival of the species > survival of the individual from an instinctive point of view.

Soon we'll have to watch out for these....


http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/HPM/FM2063~Family-Guy-Evil-Monkey-Posters.jpg

We'd best eat them now, before they get any ideas.

No wait! They might only eat the liberals! they're the ones tryiong to destroy morality which is a key part of their nature. They should leave the rest of us alone provide we don't attack them or try to destroy their nature. :p

When I am dictator of the new USSR, I will commission studies to further see how intelligent chimps and other apes and other animals are. I really wonder if they can read.

Oh man, I need to go to bed: I read the title as "Morality developing in pirates".

Interesting article, though!!!

oh those poor monkeys :(

Beware the beast man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone among God's primates, he kills for sport or lust or greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him; drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of death.

It would be neat if they started selectviely breeding monkeys and apes for domestication, like they've always done with dogs. A primate servant to brew me coffee would be just grand.

de waal does some really excellent work. and his books are good reads, i recommend them.

oh you mean Chimps, i thought you were talking about humans :rolleyes:
That's the follow-up ...

"Chimps surpass Homo Sapiens Sapiens in morality"

Oh well I guess thats where mankinds morality is going to. :p

I wonder if we'll eventually see chimpanzees evolving to full sentience...given the way they're going thus far they may yet some untold thousands of years from now...assuming we don't kill them all first.

It would be neat if they started selectviely breeding monkeys and apes for domestication, like they've always done with dogs. A primate servant to brew me coffee would be just grand.

Monkeys are too difficult to breed. Only one kid at a time combined with the much longer period before they can breed necessitates difficulty.

Beware the beast man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone among God's primates, he kills for sport or lust or greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him; drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of death.

Seems like a good enough excuse...

Help The Human's about to escape.
Get your paws off me you dirty ape.
*Gasps...*
He can talk...
He can talk, he can talk, he can talk, he can talk,
He can talk, he can talk, he can talk.
I CAN SING!
Ooooh help me Dr. Zeius
Dr. Zeius, Dr. Zeius
Dr. Zeius, Dr. Zeius
Dr. Zeius, Dr. Zeius
Ooooooh Dr. Zeius
Dr. Zeius, Dr. Zeius
What's wrong with me?
I think your crazy.
I want a second opinion.
Your also lazy.
Dr. Zeius, Dr. Zeius
Dr. Zeius, Dr. Zeius
Dr. Zeius, Dr. Zeius
Ooooooh Dr. Zeius
Dr. Zeius, Dr. Zeius
Can i play the piano anymore?
Of course you can
Well i couldn't before
Dr. Zeius, Dr. Zeius
Dr. Zeius, Dr. Zeius
Dr. Zeius, Dr. Zeius
Ooooooh Dr. Zeius
Dr. Zeius, Dr. Zeius

No wait! They might only eat the liberals! they're the ones tryiong to destroy morality which is a key part of their nature. They should leave the rest of us alone provide we don't attack them or try to destroy their nature. :p

Ah, but remember, these scientists define morality as "concern for others." Which conservatives define as "bleeding heart liberalism." Apparently, chimps are liberal intellectual elitists. Well, at least compared to American Conservatives.

I would have hoped that Bishops already had some sense of morality - still it is good to see scientists are studying them.