NationStates Jolt Archive

How is this becoming and issue?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17665989/


I'm wondering how the people's beliefs allow them to even work in the store that stocks and sells pork products at all,let alone handle or sell them personally?

How is this becoming and issue?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17665989/


I'm wondering how the people's beliefs allow them to even work in the store that stocks and sells pork products at all,let alone handle or sell them personally?
This is just like the cab driver stories. Hillary said it best, "Fire their asses", if they don't want to do the work they were hired for.

You know, there are a lot of ethnic groceries around here, why don't they just start up a few of those? I'm sure everyone would appreciate the pork-free workplaces, as well as the absence of those opposed to pork in the more traditional grocery stores.


Is there some reason that most of these stories seem to come from Minneapolis?

Maybe we should start a religion that is opposed to working.

Then get hired for a job, and claim, "well my religion doesn't allow me to exert myself."

And if I get fired, I sue because my religion is being discriminated against...

Fire 'em.

This is just like the cab driver stories. Hillary said it best, "Fire their asses", if they don't want to do the work they were hired for.

You know, there are a lot of ethnic groceries around here, why don't they just start up a few of those? I'm sure everyone would appreciate the pork-free workplaces, as well as the absence of those opposed to pork in the more traditional grocery stores.


Is there some reason that most of these stories seem to come from Minneapolis?


I'm surprised Hillary would make such an absolute statement-Did she actually say that?
Then again, when she went to NY, she found favor very quickly with the orthodox/hasidic communities that helped her tremendously get into office.
So-she may be scoring more points with them now.

I'm just puzzled as to where the religion stops and the personal preference starts? The reasons given for not personally handling the product or selling it, why are you still able to remain in the employ of that store if they stock and sell it at all?

Target did well in simply transfering Muslim workers to the shop floor. Best solution by far and avoids any awkward problems.

Though I do think this is a little too much on the part of those who refuse to scan the item. You know the shops sells pork products, so why did you apply for a job there? Will these people refuse to collect rubbish from the households that consume pork because they believe they are being complicit in others' sins?

10 items or fewer

Just like pharmacists who object to selling certain products on a religious basis these people should find alternative careers rather than take a job they know will require them to handle pork.

As a side note - I think this is bull and people stirring things up. I lived in a largely muslim area of London for 16 years and never heard of anyone bitching to tesco about refusing to work the tills because they would not handle pork.

I'm surprised Hillary would make such an absolute statement-Did she actually say that?
Then again, when she went to NY, she found favor very quickly with the orthodox/hasidic communities that helped her tremendously get into office.
So-she may be scoring more points with them now.

I'm just puzzled as to where the religion stops and the personal preference starts? The reasons given for not personally handling the product or selling it, why are you still able to remain in the employ of that store if they stock and sell it at all?

Yes, but not about Muslims. It was from the Travelgate days. It's just one of those priceless quotes from Ms Clinton, back when she was the co-President.

Fire 'em.

I would.

To make things easier, I would, at the time of hiring, show them an information sheet that shows them the products and types of work they would be expected to handle.

They would sign right there that if they had any personal objection to handling anything in their duties, they would forfeit their job on the spot.

When I was a teenager, I had to shovel shit out of a restaurant basement (the sewage pipe backed up). The choice was do it, or get fired.

So I did it.

Fire 'em.

Part of me wants to say that re-assigning them to responsibilities taht would help them keep from breaking their beliefs-but where do you draw the line?

The accepted the job. its not like they thought they were going to be a greeter and someone said "We demand you taste the pork".

The reasons for refusing to perform their duties would also preclude them from working for the corporation at all.

So-part of me agrees with firing them for not doing their job.

There's being religiously and culturally sensitive, then there's just plain going overboard. The line needs to be drawn somewhere, and it needs to be in public. We live in a multi-cultural society and something has to give. There are at times too many cultural and religious differences that exist for concessions to work. It can work when only one or two need to be made, but when there are too many, the line needs to be drawn otherwise work would never get done...

EDIT - Eve Online, I agree with you on the sheet of paper. That would solve most issues. But, there are laws, at least in Canada that say you are permitted to object to a task if it seems unsafe. That being said... the pork they handle is packaged and not unsafe and from what I know of big box stores like that (or at least from what I've seen at Wal-Mart) the cashiers keep a small bottle of sanitizer at their station to wash their hands with.

Fool. Can his ass.

I would.

To make things easier, I would, at the time of hiring, show them an information sheet that shows them the products and types of work they would be expected to handle.

They would sign right there that if they had any personal objection to handling anything in their duties, they would forfeit their job on the spot.

When I was a teenager, I had to shovel shit out of a restaurant basement (the sewage pipe backed up). The choice was do it, or get fired.

So I did it.


I worked sanitation at a turkey plant. I've cleaned up things best never described. If you want a job you'll do it. If not, get the hell out.

Just like pharmacists who object to selling certain products on a religious basis these people should find alternative careers rather than take a job they know will require them to handle pork.

As a side note - I think this is bull and people stirring things up. I lived in a largely muslim area of London for 16 years and never heard of anyone bitching to tesco about refusing to work the tills because they would not handle pork.

You might start hearing about it more now. Once someone says they are sorry and tries to appease the situation-such as re-assignment-you will see "victims" popping up everywhere. Compensation demands for having to violate beliefs, etc....

Unfortunately, trying to make adjustments and appeasing can sometimes backfire in your face.

How is this becoming and issue?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17665989/


I'm wondering how the people's beliefs allow them to even work in the store that stocks and sells pork products at all,let alone handle or sell them personally?

Now I'm not one of these anit Muslim people, but my brother owns a butcher shop and he has several Mulsim staff, who although not quite comfatable handling pork, tell me that their faith does not restrict them from touching it, so you know out of the horses mouth.

This is just stupidity gone mad.

You might start hearing about it more now. Once someone says they are sorry and tries to appease the situation-such as re-assignment-you will see "victims" popping up everywhere. Compensation demands for having to violate beliefs, etc....

Unfortunately, trying to make adjustments and appeasing can sometimes backfire in your face.

They're probably trying to avoid getting sued for religious discrimination.

What I'm surprised at is that there weren't Jews complaining about the same thing, as Judaism, or at least conservative denominations of it view pork the same way Islam does.

I think that the supermarket is doing the right thing.

What I'm surprised at is that there weren't Jews complaining about the same thing, as Judaism, or at least conservative denominations of it view pork the same way Islam does.

I am waiting for the muslem bank employees that refuse to handle anything involving interest (mortgages, loans etc).

I think that the supermarket is doing the right thing.

Unless these employees were forced to take the job: why ?

What I'm surprised at is that there weren't Jews complaining about the same thing, as Judaism, or at least conservative denominations of it view pork the same way Islam does.

I've known a lot of extremely observant Jews.

If something about a job might offend them (such as working on the Sabbath, or handling pork directly), they won't bother applying for that job.

That seems to be common sense.

But, no, common sense isn't required here - we're supposed to bend over backwards and stop eating pork and comply with their religion.

Now I'm not one of these anit Muslim people, but my brother owns a butcher shop and he has several Mulsim staff, who although not quite comfatable handling pork, tell me that their faith does not restrict them from touching it, so you know out of the horses mouth.

This is just stupidity gone mad.

Thats what I was wondering. What degree of association with pork is allowed?

Again-for the reasons cited, it would make sense that they didnt accept the job in the first place.

I've known a lot of extremely observant Jews.

If something about a job might offend them (such as working on the Sabbath, or handling pork directly), they won't bother applying for that job.

That seems to be common sense.

But, no, common sense isn't required here - we're supposed to bend over backwards and stop eating pork and comply with their religion.

What's more, I've watched a lot of Indians pass my steak and hamburger meat over the scanner without a second thought.

But I think you're on to something with that last comment.

How is this becoming and issue?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17665989/


I'm wondering how the people's beliefs allow them to even work in the store that stocks and sells pork products at all,let alone handle or sell them personally?

http://www.reloaded.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/hysterical.gif

Seriously, though, why would you think this makes any less sense than the pharmacist who refused to give a lady her prescribed morning-after pill? Same difference, if you ask me. If you accomodate one, you'll have to accomodate them all.

http://www.reloaded.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/hysterical.gif

Seriously, though, why would you think this makes any less sense than the pharmacist who refused to give a lady her prescribed morning-after pill? Same difference, if you ask me. If you accomodate one, you'll have to accomodate them all.

Its very similar to me. I'm the customer and I'm dealing with a widely used and accepted product.

Or-I'm the proprietor and I'm dealing with a widely used and accepted product.

Comply with your duties or look for another job.


However-the "morning after pill" is a relatively new item. Its certainly controversial amongst devout persons.

pork has been around and sold by grocery stores for a while longer.

Its very similar to me. I'm the customer and I'm dealing with a widely used and accepted product.

Or-I'm the proprietor and I'm dealing with a widely used and accepted product.

Comply with your duties or look for another job.


However-the "morning after pill" is a relatively new item. Its certainly controversial amongst devout persons.

pork has been around and sold by grocery stores for a while longer.


I Totaly agree, on the basis of taking personal repsonsability for your life, if you find that an aspect of your job does not fit well with the way you wish to live, then you have to leave the job. Only a fool would expect for the job to cator to their needs.

Its very similar to me. I'm the customer and I'm dealing with a widely used and accepted product.

Or-I'm the proprietor and I'm dealing with a widely used and accepted product.

Comply with your duties or look for another job.


However-the "morning after pill" is a relatively new item. Its certainly controversial amongst devout persons.

pork has been around and sold by grocery stores for a while longer.

Well, it's been around since the 50s, I think. Very few pharmasicst could claim that it wasn't around when they started the job...
And while pork has been around a lot longer, it's also been a taboo for Muslims since way before the morning after pill was invented ;)

And it would seem that both can be an issue for devout people... the question is, should such issues be accomodated? Me, I'd say no. To both.

That is stupid; either they do what their job entails or they should be fired. I remember the same thing happens in my town last year when a Christian chick refused to sell someone condoms.

Well, it's been around since the 50s, I think. Very few pharmasicst could claim that it wasn't around when they started the job...
And while pork has been around a lot longer, it's also been a taboo for Muslims since way before the morning after pill was invented ;)

And it would seem that both can be an issue for devout people... the question is, should such issues be accomodated? Me, I'd say no. To both.

Maybe I'm getting it confused,but a morning after pill hasnt been around the US for long.

Yes-pork known to be taboo for Muslims-so muslims are breaking their faith by accepting a job with a pork purveyor in the first place.


I'm saying no to both too,though.

Sell that rubber and that bacon or get the fuck out.

Yeah, anyone who claims coming in contact with pork is against their religion should not work in an environment with masses of pork being processed, bought, and sold everywhere.

Maybe I'm getting it confused,but a morning after pill hasnt been around the US for long.

Yes-pork known to be taboo for Muslims-so muslims are breaking their faith by accepting a job with a pork purveyor in the first place.


I'm saying no to both too,though.

Sell that rubber and that bacon or get the fuck out.


Naaa the morning after pill has not yet been around for 10 years.

If these people were clever they'd continue selling pork but demand extra pay to compensate.

Naaa the morning after pill has not yet been around for 10 years.

IIRC it has been over 20. But indeed, not that old.

If these people were clever they'd continue selling pork but demand extra pay to compensate.

It is hazardous duty. But-Accepting any greater pay or compensation must be wrong too,No?

Naaa the morning after pill has not yet been around for 10 years.

Tell Cabra- She makes it sound like she has been getting it out of a gumball machine since she was a kid.

IIRC it has been over 20. But indeed, not that old.

I stand corrected.

Now I'm not one of these anit Muslim people, but my brother owns a butcher shop and he has several Mulsim staff, who although not quite comfatable handling pork, tell me that their faith does not restrict them from touching it, so you know out of the horses mouth.

This is just stupidity gone mad.

I have to agree. I haven't heard of not touching pork. If they say "well I can't allow others to sin" then why work at a place where pork is being bought and sold in the 1st place? Our actions are our own, and our sins as well. You can't expect a non-Muslim to live up to the standard of a Muslim generally speaking.

Meh.

If you work as a cashier, you get everything spilt on you that can possibly be spilt, from quicklime to insecticide to pigs blood. It's not pleasant, but it's part of the job, unfortunately.

They should get over it.

Meh.

If you work as a cashier, you get everything spilt on you that can possibly be spilt, from quicklime to insecticide to pigs blood. It's not pleasant, but it's part of the job, unfortunately.

They should get over it.

They're oppotunists,trying to take advantage of the situation. Everyone is so sensitive to everyone else's "needs" here.

Fuck them. Ring up my bacon. :p

Well, it's been around since the 50s, I think. Very few pharmasicst could claim that it wasn't around when they started the job...
And while pork has been around a lot longer, it's also been a taboo for Muslims since way before the morning after pill was invented ;)

And it would seem that both can be an issue for devout people... the question is, should such issues be accomodated? Me, I'd say no. To both.
Let's be clear on what it means to accommodate a position. If we're talking about an employer accommodating a position that is contrary to the employer's goals, i.e. selling pharmaceuticals or pork, then I agree. There is no room for an employee that will only pick and choose his work. If we're talking about a sole-proprietorship butcher or pharmacist, then there's nothing to accommodate. The position of the management is that pork or birth-control will not be sold and it's the market's job to decide if that is a valid policy.

While I find the idea that scanning bacon somehow should be against their religion strange and silly - and not a common interpretation of the ban on pork, as far as I can see - I fail to see the problem with Targets solution.

Minneapolis-based Target Corp. has now offered its local Muslim cashiers who object to handling pork the option of wearing gloves while cashiering, shifting to other positions or transferring to other nearby stores.

So meh.

I think Target's response was a good one - if moving the objecting employees to floor duty makes them happy and Target happy, then it seems that all is well. Now, if the objecting employees decide that they also can't work floor duty, then I'd think firing them would be the only remaining solution. I have no problem with making reasonable concessions to people's personal beliefs, but "reasonable" is very definitely the key word there.

Of course, I don't quite understand why someone who objects to selling pork would choose to work at a store that sells pork in the first place. I can't imagine that it's much harder to get a job as a cashier at a non-grocery store than at a grocery store...

This is similar to the pond scum pharmacists who wouldn't fill RXs for birth control.

It is worse in the case of the pharmacists, since they do substantial harm to people and are a legitimate profession, but the solution should be the same -fire them.

Of course, I don't quite understand why someone who objects to selling pork would choose to work at a store that sells pork in the first place.

This is still the part I dont get.

How is this becoming and issue?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17665989/


I'm wondering how the people's beliefs allow them to even work in the store that stocks and sells pork products at all,let alone handle or sell them personally?Ugh, this falls in the same "stupid things" box as not handing out birth control pills for religious reasons. Isn't meat packaged in Target? How do they come in contact with it in the first place?

Ugh, this falls in the same "stupid things" box as not handing out birth control pills for religious reasons. Isn't meat packaged in Target? How do they come in contact with it in the first place?

somewhere in the thread, someone explained that its not the contact with pork thats a problem- its just dealing with it,or allowing another to obtain & consume it?


I still wonder how they can even get a job where these products could be?

Naaa the morning after pill has not yet been around for 10 years.

It's apparently been around since the late late 60s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morning_after_pill#History), not the 50s after all...

It's apparently been around since the late late 60s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morning_after_pill#History), not the 50s after all...

Of course it has. What else caused the Sexual Revolution?

:rolleyes: Remeber your pop history, people?

&@OP: This is dumb. There isn't even any Qur'anic justification for these peoples' complaints.

Ugh, this falls in the same "stupid things" box as not handing out birth control pills for religious reasons. Isn't meat packaged in Target? How do they come in contact with it in the first place?

Well, you see...

He said it doesn’t matter if the pork product is packaged. “Even if you just sell it to someone, you break a promise to Allah,” he said.

...since...

Islam teaches that pigs are unclean and eating pork is a sin, and some Muslims feel selling or handling pork is also forbidden because it would make them complicit in the sins of others.

...which is a first for me, at least. I've never heard of that before.

How is this becoming and issue?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17665989/


I'm wondering how the people's beliefs allow them to even work in the store that stocks and sells pork products at all,let alone handle or sell them personally?
Bleh. I, too, immediately think of all the pharmacists who don't want to have to provide certain medications or serve certain customers.

If you don't want to have to ring up pork products, don't work in a store that cells pork. If you are a vegetarian, probably best that you not get a job working in a steak house. People need to quit expecting to take home paychecks for jobs they are refusing to do.

Bleh. I, too, immediately think of all the pharmacists who don't want to have to provide certain medications or serve certain customers.

If you don't want to have to ring up pork products, don't work in a store that cells pork. If you are a vegetarian, probably best that you not get a job working in a steak house. People need to quit expecting to take home paychecks for jobs they are refusing to do.

bastards that cell pork...how dare they!

What I'm surprised at is that there weren't Jews complaining about the same thing, as Judaism, or at least conservative denominations of it view pork the same way Islam does.

I have no problem handling pork products. I just won't eat them.

My first summer job was to make pizzas. I would never eat pizzas with pork products or any meat products for that matter. I still made them and sold them to customers without a problem.

Mmmm... Pork :fluffle:

Excuse me? I'm pretty sure there's no decree in islam saying you can't handle pork. Seriously. And they're not even handling it directly, it's wrapped up.

Now, if we were talking working in the meat department, it would be a different story. Then I might have some sympathy.

Mmmm... Pork :fluffle:

The other white meat, Bee-yotch!

If you allow Muslims to handle everything that's not pork in a place that has lots of pork (and I'm not tlaking about Washington DC), then you have to allow Christian pharmacists to not hand out birth control devices. You have to let atheist English teachers to skip everything that deals with anything religious(which would allow them to get paid to do nothing). You'd have to accomadate everything.

Granted, PC isn't all bad. Discriminating against skin color is bad since skin color often has nothing to do with the job description. Discriminating against gender is only okay when you need a particular gender, such as modeling for certain magazines and websites. Wink. Wink. It's also only okay when choosing a mate. If a man wants a biological son, he's going to have to target only women, thereby discriminating against gays. Beyond that, it's not really okay.

Sometimes, PC is good. Sometimes, you have to throw political correctness out the window. As the saying goes: accomadate one group, accomadate them all. Accomadate none and all is fair.

The other white meat, Bee-yotch!

http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/5117/deletebg9.jpg

Ugh, this falls in the same "stupid things" box as not handing out birth control pills for religious reasons. Isn't meat packaged in Target? How do they come in contact with it in the first place?

Apparently the meat rips itself out of it's packaging to spread it's sin onto the cashier.

This reminds me of the debate that's been going on in various places here in Canada since the law was enacted legalising same-sex marriage nationally. Here and there, marriage commissioners were saying "oh noes, the gays might come and want to file for a marriage liscence and I think they're immoral."

In my own province of New Brunswick, there was talk of a provincial law that would exempt those who were unwilling on the basis of their religious beliefs from having to certify same-sex marriages, claiming it could be a step to protect their religious freedoms under the Charter.

The provincial government that was recently elected, however, weighed the arguments and agreed with those (myself included) who said, among other things, that if the government started exempting people from performing their duties on the basis of religious beliefs against same-sex marriage, then by extension they ought to exempt people based on religious or personal beliefs against interracial marriage, against inter-faith marriage, or against whatever other bigotry someone might try to just to justify with religion. Also, being-- for instance-- an evangelical Christian is a choice, and becoming a marriage commissioner is also a choice, and if someone found that their choice of religious observance was incompatible with their choice of occupation, they had the freedom to leave their occupation in favour of their religious conscience. You don't get forced to breach your 'morals' because you aren't *forced* to stay in a job where the requirements are the same for everyone regardless.

Final analysis is that the job is the job, and in taking it and keeping it, you're expected to accept the terms of employment, not come in and start dictating that you shouldn't have to do part of the job because you 'don't like it.' If you don't like the requirements of your occupation, you're in the wrong occupation.

This is still the part I dont get.

Yeah, I'm thinking we're not going to find a rational explanation for that.

Psh, I know a Muslim who works at a grocery store as a cashier, she just washes her hands after she ends her shift(as any sane person would). This is just overkill.

Bleh. I, too, immediately think of all the pharmacists who don't want to have to provide certain medications or serve certain customers.

If you don't want to have to ring up pork products, don't work in a store that cells pork. If you are a vegetarian, probably best that you not get a job working in a steak house. People need to quit expecting to take home paychecks for jobs they are refusing to do.

And if you don't want a vaccination, and don't mind dying of diseases that are preventable, don't get one.

Just let your children make their own choices, instead of condemning them to death by diseases that are relatively unknown here in the West.

http://www.missionislam.com/health/immunisationislam.htm

The other white meat, Bee-yotch!
I always thought pork was a red meat, and that all mammal meats were red. :confused:

Anyway, I think if they're not willing to do their jobs they should lose them. I don't see why they should get any special treatment. Anyway, they're not even being made to touch the pork itself, just the packaging.

When I was a teenager, I had to shovel shit...
And you still do til this day.

How is this becoming and issue?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17665989/


I'm wondering how the people's beliefs allow them to even work in the store that stocks and sells pork products at all,let alone handle or sell them personally?

I want beef-free lines. :mad:


Or I can take my ass elsewhere and not bother others :p

bastards that cell pork...how dare they!
Wow, now there was an interesting type-o on my part...heheh.

I've known a lot of extremely observant Jews.

If something about a job might offend them (such as working on the Sabbath, or handling pork directly), they won't bother applying for that job.

That seems to be common sense.

But, no, common sense isn't required here - we're supposed to bend over backwards and stop eating pork and comply with their religion.

I've known a lot of extremely observant Christians.

If something about a job might offend them (such as selling contraceptives), they won't bother applying for that job.

That seems to be common sense.

But, no, common sense isn't required here - we're supposed to bend over backwards and give birth to unwanted babies to comply with their religion.

Only I'd gladly pick "no more pork meat" over "I have to raise a child". Furthermore, LAWS have been enacted to protect these pharmacists in their quest to make life more difficult to those who dare have sex. Yet we see people arguing about an internal decision by a company that solves the problem? We have bigger fish to fry, mainly the pharmacists that want to force kids into women's wombs, and do so under the protection of the law!

Wow, now there was an interesting type-o on my part...heheh.

I'm concerned it partially exposes a larger problem.:p

Hold on a sec, do my eyes decive me, general agreement here? WTF?

Hold on a sec, do my eyes decive me, general agreement here? WTF?

Yeah-with a few minor exceptions,many people seem to be agreeing.

And I've never had a thread last this long.

End of Days are upon us....?

Yeah-with a few minor exceptions,many people seem to be agreeing.

And I've never had a thread last this long.

End of Days are upon us....?

I agree that this is unusual for NSG.

I agree that this is unusual for NSG.

furthermore,by a topic I provided.

mainly the pharmacists that want to force kids into women's wombs, and do so under the protection of the law!
That conjures up the most unsettling of images.

You know, there are a lot of ethnic groceries around here, why don't they just start up a few of those? I'm sure everyone would appreciate the pork-free workplaces...

I wonder why they didn't object to handling wine and beer.

.......We have bigger fish to fry, mainly the pharmacists that want to force kids into women's wombs, and do so under the protection of the law!

Ick...is there some new kit out there to do this?

That conjures up the most unsettling of images.

Well, if it drives home my point...

I wonder why they didn't object to handling wine and beer.

I think we all know why they didn't object to handling beer. Where else did they get this idea? They were f'ing drunk.