NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok, i understand that people remain poor for many different reasons. People in developing countries are usually poor due to the lack of opertunities etc.
But what i dont understand is people who live in developed countries like the UK or the USA (or most of europe really), who have had the same opertinities as everyone else at a good education, and yet continue to be poor throughout their lives.

What is it they are doing wrong? Why should anyone earn so low a wage as to need extra money from the government just to stay alive? Even if you have a minimum wage job, dont work weekends, and only do 9 to 5 every day that still gives you £10,300 a year (with assumed 20 day holiday).
Yes, i know £10,300 isnt very much money, but there are many people out there who are earning much less than that, and its these people i have a problem with.

I have heard several excuses for not earning this much a year, none of which i have found satisfactory. They include:
"but i cant get a job" - Well try harder you dumb idiot. I have never failed to get a job when i tried, even when i had no GCSE's and was under 16.
"I cant be bothered to get one, i will live off my savings" - He was honest but i think the guy who said it is a scrownging arsehole.
"I dont have time for a job" - Well make time. Its kinda one of lifes necessities..


Ok, now i have finnished my rant, its time for you guys to add all your opinions :D

Ok, i understand that people remain poor for many different reasons. People in developing countries are usually poor due to the lack of opertunities etc.
But what i dont understand is people who live in developed countries like the UK or the USA (or most of europe really), who have had the same opertinities as everyone else at a good education, and yet continue to be poor throughout their lives.

What is it they are doing wrong? Why should anyone earn so low a wage as to need extra money from the government just to stay alive? Even if you have a minimum wage job, dont work weekends, and only do 9 to 5 every day that still gives you £10,300 a year (with assumed 20 day holiday).
Yes, i know £10,300 isnt very much money, but there are many people out there who are earning much less than that, and its these people i have a problem with.

I have heard several excuses for not earning this much a year, none of which i have found satisfactory. They include:
"but i cant get a job" - Well try harder you dumb idiot. I have never failed to get a job when i tried, even when i had no GCSE's and was under 16.
"I cant be bothered to get one, i will live off my savings" - He was honest but i think the guy who said it is a scrownging arsehole.
"I dont have time for a job" - Well make time. Its kinda one of lifes necessities..


Ok, now i have finnished my rant, its time for you guys to add all your opinions :D

I um....wow. I think it's apparent that you don't understand many realities of life.

Probably because they didn't love Jesus the right way or something.

Mental problems?
Lack of desire to climb the social ladder?
No interest in money?

But, the real reason is because without the poor, you wouldnt have the rich.

Mostly it's because of self-destructive behavior. A lot of people are poor because they are either alcoholics or drug addicts. Another very widespread category is single young women (often girls under 18) having children.

Then, of course, some people are really lazy, and if they can get enough from the state without working, they'll probably grumble about not being able to afford much, but won't bother lifting their asses to actually earn some money.

Finally, some people just have an extremely bad luck.

I was brought up in a poor household. For the last 10 years (my adult life) I have found any work availiable, done it well, and worked my way up to where I am now. I have a house (rented but big enough - plus by renting we have saved money - the plumbing needed fixing today = landlords problem = £45 an hour) a car, and a job that keeps me and my girlfreind (she wokrs too) over £1000 in the bank every month. Today, in the offlicense, I was behind a lass who was complaining that her benifits would be cut of, bah, blah blah. She was buying one can of Stella. This is 3 o'clock in the afternoon - I am buying beer because I am on holiday and can get fucked without having to go to worrk - this bitch was whining about getting her benefits whilst buying beer. Fuck poor people in western countries. It's laziness!

Mental problems?
Lack of desire to climb the social ladder?
No interest in money?
I can tell you from experience that if the latter two are true of you, people will assume the first is true as well. Even some members of my own family think that.

I blame poor culture, bad parenting and the fact that if you need to look after lets say a mentally ill family member it will cost more to hire someone to help

…No screw that there lazy and too busy having sex :mad: :p

I have heard several excuses for not earning this much a year, none of which i have found satisfactory. They include:
"but i cant get a job" - Well try harder you dumb idiot. I have never failed to get a job when i tried, even when i had no GCSE's and was under 16.
"I cant be bothered to get one, i will live off my savings" - He was honest but i think the guy who said it is a scrownging arsehole.
"I dont have time for a job" - Well make time. Its kinda one of lifes necessities..

Naive.

Probably because they didn't love Jesus the right way or something.
Wow, I would love to hear how you arrived at that conclusion.

well, its a combination of things.

some people are poor due to disabilities. easily understood.

some people are poor due to criminal behavior. misbehave enough and you end up at the bottom.

some people are more interested in "having fun" than in working. those are the people you refer to. they cant be bothered working or getting training or education because it interferes with their drug use or general lazy ways. they prefer sucking government tit.

some people have a serious lack of opportunities. many mexican immigrants to the US both legal and illegal had no chance to get a good education or training. they work hard but lack the skills necessary to get ahead.

some people dont exploit the opportunities that they have. they dont get a good education. they dont work hard at the jobs they get. they drift from low paying job to low paying job. when they do get a bit of money that they could put to good use in getting ahead, they blow it in uselss crap like big screen tvs instead.

some people come from such bad families that they have a hard enough time keeping themselves sane let alone getting ahead. some come from families and neighborhoods where the only people they know who do get ahead are in criminal gangs. that leads to prison and poverty. for some, the road to the middle class is just not obvious so they suck government tit and make do just like everyone they know does.

starting a family before or instead of graduating high school is a major cause of poverty. its very hard for a single mother to work, raise her children and get ahead.

im sure ill think of more reasons in a bit.

its societies "job" to sort the wheat from the chaff. to support those who really cannnot be expected to support themselves and to provide opportunities for those who can work to get a job that can lead them off the dole, by force if necessary.

I would not call myself poor; however I have two mortgages, that means I would not have the money to own my houses without my bank.

If your financial problems are more of a priority than holidays and socialising, your either have no idea that there is a world around you or are third-world poor.

<snip>

Holy... Fucking... Jesus.

Why are poor people poor? because if they were rich, then they wouldn't be poor people.

I know I'm not rich because I have a nasty habit of spending my money.

that can lead them off the dole, by force if necessary.

oh dear God hear we go...

Why are poor people poor?

... don't get out much, do you?

because if they were rich, then they wouldn't be poor people.

I know I'm not rich because I have a nasty habit of spending my money.

How do rich people buy stuff then? They don't get it by sucking cock.

How do rich people buy stuff then? They don't get it by sucking cock.how do you know...

I guess they spend other people's money. :D

either that or they manage to save more than they spend.

starting a family before or instead of graduating high school is a major cause of poverty. its very hard for a single mother to work, raise her children and get ahead.


Ashmoria covered it really well. I just want to add to the above part.

Single mother with little or no skills is a problem.

My mom was in that position as she bought into the "family values" image of the stay at home mom(Well family values wasn't coined back then) and when my loser old man disappeared she was left with 2 children and no skills.

We were parasites on society for a couple years as she took welfare.

In return society got a delivery room nurse who has been involved with over 40000 births in her career. I am currently a wan engineer for a multinational and my sister does costume design on Broadway.

I doubt we would have achieved much if she "pulled herself up by the bootstraps" and worked several minimum wage jobs.

How do rich people buy stuff then? They don't get it by sucking cock.

Well there is Paris Hilton.....

Brittney Spears......

Anna Nicole Smith......

K Fred.......

:rolleyes:

how do you know...

I guess they spend other people's money. :D

either that or they manage to save more than they spend.

The ones I know got it from their parents.

They also act like they made the money.

the real reason is because without the poor, you wouldnt have the rich.

That's pretty much it. Western liberal democracy is dependant upon the existence of poor people to do the service tasks that they're given the opportunity to be poorly paid to do. Without poor people, there would be nobody to cater to the rich. And it goes on and on like this.

oh dear God hear we go...

what problem do you have with the idea that its society's job to provide jobs for those who can work and to force those who can work TO work instead of living off the rest of us?

Ashmoria covered it really well. I just want to add to the above part.

Single mother with little or no skills is a problem.

My mom was in that position as she bought into the "family values" image of the stay at home mom(Well family values wasn't coined back then) and when my loser old man disappeared she was left with 2 children and no skills.

We were parasites on society for a couple years as she took welfare.

In return society got a delivery room nurse who has been involved with over 40000 births in her career. I am currently a wan engineer for a multinational and my sister does costume design on Broadway.

I doubt we would have achieved much if she "pulled herself up by the bootstraps" and worked several minimum wage jobs.


Bullshit. Don't you know that everyone on welfare is lazy, incompetant good for nothing drains on society who instead of getting a real job just spend the hard earned money from working stiffs like you and me and never do any good for anyone, ever?

what problem do you have with the idea that its society's job to provide jobs for those who can work and to force those who can work TO work instead of living off the rest of us?

Forcing people to work is the definition of slavery. you can't FORCE anyone to work. On the other hand you also dont have to provide benefits for people who can work, but don't make any effort to.

Forcing people to work is the definition of slavery. you can't FORCE anyone to work. On the other hand you also dont have to provide benefits for people who can work, but don't make any effort to.

better put.

Bullshit. Don't you know that everyone on welfare is lazy, incompetant good for nothing drains on society who instead of getting a real job just spend the hard earned money from working stiffs like you and me and never do any good for anyone, ever?speaking as one who was on welfare! BULLSHIT!!!

Forcing people to work is the definition of slavery. you can't FORCE anyone to work. On the other hand you also dont have to provide benefits for people who can work, but don't make any effort to.and how do you know when someone can work but can't find a job vs someone who can work but doesn't make the effort vs someone who can work but just lacks the skills to find a job?

Well there is Paris Hilton.....

Brittney Spears......

Anna Nicole Smith......

K Fred.......

:rolleyes:

Paris Hilton - not that rich - she sucked cock on Film but is still waiting to inherit.

Britney Spears - mad and probably dead within a year - sung crap songs to get rich.

Anna - Dead

K Fred - Sucking cock for crack soon.

Bullshit. Don't you know that everyone on welfare is lazy, incompetant good for nothing drains on society who instead of getting a real job just spend the hard earned money from working stiffs like you and me and never do any good for anyone, ever?

:D

You found me out! I lied. I am on welfare using the money for drugs and drinking a colt45 while I use this stolen computer.

what problem do you have with the idea that its society's job to provide jobs for those who can work and to force those who can work TO work instead of living off the rest of us?

why do I have to teach history!: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poor_house

Look its all fine and dandy hating poor people but forcing them to work has been an idea since the dawn of time it usually involves slavery or some sort of massive human rights abuse (whether voluntary because of lack of food or forced) now please put the Mirror down and read some history (preferably a crime and punishment course book that 15 year olds learn)

And for the record no it doesn’t work all you do is create a slave class that kicks other people out of work

:D

You found me out! I lied. I am on welfare using the money for drugs and drinking a colt45 while I use this stolen computer.
Colt45 is a drink now? You've had too much.

Mental problems?
Lack of desire to climb the social ladder?
No interest in money?

But, the real reason is because without the poor, you wouldnt have the rich.

That is the big ones. However I will say luck does play a role. Sometimes it is a matter of being in the right place at the right time.

Well, in my case it was leaving the Army with two marketable skills: killing people and being a janitor. Then, just as I was getting me feet under me, I was diagnosed with cancer, which put me and my wife in a ten-year hole. Never homeless, but we came damn close.

Oh, and not everyone has an equal access to education. Where I grew up we still used a two room school for the 18 kids in town. I was the sole member of my senior class. School was often interrupted for weeks due to blizzards. I was not prepared for college.

Colt45 is a drink now? You've had too much.

MMmmmmm malt liquor.. ;)

speaking as one who was on welfare! BULLSHIT!!!

and how do you know when someone can work but can't find a job vs someone who can work but doesn't make the effort vs someone who can work but just lacks the skills to find a job?

Hi, have we met? (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:sarcasm&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title)

Colt45 is a drink now? You've had too much.

You've never watched 'Nothing to lose' then?

Forcing people to work is the definition of slavery. you can't FORCE anyone to work. On the other hand you also dont have to provide benefits for people who can work, but don't make any effort to.

Absolutely correct! To many people do not see it that way though.

This thread makes me sad to be a 'poor' person who is on the verge of eviction from his own home.

A bit over two years ago, my father passed away. My father was the person in the home who made the most money, and now my mother and I recieve Social Security death benefits. It's not welfare, yet most people would claim that I am sucking the government teat. My mom has a job, I'm not sure how much she makes but it is not nearly enough. She works in an office building, has an education (Associates Degree), and is in her mid 40s. She has never been arrested (funny story involving a ticket, not the time for this), and has two children. Myself (15) and my older brother (19). My brother is in college-a private college at that-pursuing a Bachelor's Degree at the moment and studying to become a biologist. He graduated number two in his class and has a 3/4ths scholarship.

So far I've provided two reasons as to why I'm poor. I'm down a parent who made around 1k a week and my mom is burdened with the costs of college. Need more? I'll supply.

Another reason is that my mother and I live in an apartment, maintenence and other costs at over 1.2k a month. 1.2k is about how much a Social Security check is, and if my mother were to use the entire check for that, there are still bills that need to be paid. Luxuries, I know. Internet, electricity, telephone, water...All that jazz. Then there's the cost of food, clothing, other expenses...

Speaking for myself I can directly attribute my poverty to addiction.

Pall Malls and Columbia House. If it weren't for cigarettes and movies I could get my ass gold-plated and wipe it with Donald Trump's hair. Ok, maybe not... but one can fantasize.

Speaking for myself I can directly attribute my poverty to addiction.

Pall Malls and Columbia House. If it weren't for cigarettes and movies I could my ass gold-plated and wipe it with Donald Trump's hair. Ok, maybe not... but one can fantasize.

One word of advice. You Do Not have to pay for the Columbia House crap. If I can find it there was a legal precedent set for this. Also they do not have your SSI number so this cannot damage your credit.

Most poor people in first-world nations are poor because they are not skilled, intelligent, capable, or motivated enough to provide valuable services to society.

Hi, have we met? (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:sarcasm&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title)

probably not since on a TEXT ONLY medium it's easy to not reconize you. :p

probably not since on a TEXT ONLY medium it's easy to not reconize you. :p

meh, I would have hoped my reputation as a raving liberal would have preceded me.

Most poor people in first-world nations are poor because they are not skilled, intelligent, capable, or motivated enough to provide valuable services to society.

Interesting. This would mean that teachers are less valuable to society than many car sales men.

Interesting. This would mean that teachers are less valuable to society than many car sales men.

Teachers make decent money once they get some experience. Just like with any job you start out making crap and work your way up. Also teachers do provide a valuable service to society.

meh, I would have hoped my reputation as a raving liberal would have preceded me.

I don't believe in reputations.

Even if everyone had college educations, that doesn't mean that unsavory work vanishes. It still needs to be done.

One word of advice. You Do Not have to pay for the Columbia House crap. If I can find it there was a legal precedent set for this. Also they do not have your SSI number so this cannot damage your credit.

Eh? But if I don't pay them, they won't send my movies!!! If you have some inside information, please do share.

How do rich people buy stuff then? They don't get it by sucking cock.


The above quote was a response to a very wise post by someone who said they were not rich because they spend their money.

Most poor folks are pretty good at not spending a lot. There are a lot of people that are broke who drive expensive cars and do a lot of spending. I call them "all flash and no cash." There is a lot of that. In our family we have a saying that it is not important how much you earn it is imprtant how much you save. I stand by that 100%. If you make 50,000 dollars a year and spend 60,000 you are broke and in debt. If you make 35,000 and spend 30,000 you are doing better than the guy making 50,000 and spending 60,000. The trick to becoming wealthy is to spend less than you earn and invest the savings in something that pays more than what you lose in inflation and taxes. This makes your money work for you. After enough of this investing and a little beauty called compound interest, eventually you are making enough on your investments after inflation and taxes to pay for your relatively basic lifestyle. At this point you have achieved financial independence which is what I consider the modern American Dream to be. By my way of thinking if you have one more penny than that amount you have achieved wealth. I am sure that the economics guys dont like that definition of wealth but I dont care.

Now it is really easy in theory to achieve this wealth. The difficult thing is that it requires discipline. Folks who do not have the discipline do not do so well. They buy expensive food, clothes, take expensive trips, etc. instead of building wealth. These folks are a good part of what is wrong with the world except they are the ones that are spending the money on the goods and services that corporations provide and then these corporations use these profits to grow their business and pay dividends and pay interest on corporate bonds to us ordinary investors.

Not only does wealth building require discipline. It also requires reason. It is unreasonable to think that you can start a family at age 16 and have a great shot at achieving wealth. It costs too much in opportunity and expense costs to have a good shot at achieving wealth if you get your spawn on at an early age.

There are many other unreasonable things like hard drug use, gambling, being a shopaholic, etc.

Of course there are pitiful reasons to be poor. The obvious one is the handicapped. A retard or a quadrapalegic has a real uphill battle in the wealth building department. It is sad. As a conservative I am a big fan of equal opportunity but many of the handicapped just do not have the opportunity no matter what we do for them. These are the only folks that I think should be on the dole.

You have heard of the 'poverty cycle' no?
It is hard to describe explicitly. It is a vicious cycle of mainly social factors (though also several economic ones too) that keeps entire demographics submerged in an undertow, so to speak. Specifically, there are too many factors, and too much case to case variance, to give a definitive list, however I can give some common examples:
The power of the self-fulfilling prophesy
A lack of positive role models in the developement of the individual (and a surplus of negative ones)
Typically higher levels of child abuse, again pointing towards retardation of the development as an individual
Poorly conceived problem-perpetuating affirmative action schemes and welfare, which in reality encourage stagnance and reliance.
Economies of scale, it takes money to make money, and many of those on low incomes lack sufficient capital to lift them selves out of the debt cycle.
The 'income effect' wherein the costs of good take up a higher proportion of a poor persons income, thus giving them a higher elasticity of demand, meaning they eventually end up with either inferior goods, or no goods at all in the incident of a price rise.
The debt cycle, wherein poor people are often entrapped in an neverending state of debt, wherein they are constantly encouraged to consume beyond their means by creditors, simply for the asset that their debt to the company offers to the company balance sheet.
Higher rates of delinquency, drug abuse, and gambling abuse. Usually a result of several social factors, impacts upon entire families and communities in a self-perpetuating manner.

And probably a few more I can't think of.

Even if everyone had college educations, that doesn't mean that unsavory work vanishes. It still needs to be done.

Typically the real unsavory work actually pays a decent amount. Garbage collectors($24 hr in my area) and Sewer maint people come to mind.

Probably because they didn't love Jesus the right way or something.
that too.

It can be very hard to get a job. You can easily be over or underqualified. My mom effectively has no full time job and cobbles together enough parttime teaching stuff to bring in a bit of money. We had to allow our housekeeper to work for anotehr family for part of the meek to save some money. So stfu.

But, the real reason is because without the poor, you wouldnt have the rich.
Not true. A common fallacy circulated by leftists is that capitalist economics is somehow a 'zero-sum' game, in which in order for there to be a winner, there must simultaneously be a loser.

i can not belive this

ok let me point out a few things

1. capatilizim needs a working poor the ligistics of it dont work without them
2. there is a cycle of poverty the poor can not afford the schooling that the rich can and even in europe ware such things are sapost to be more equil the rich can still aford the best tudors and the standerdise testing classes to have there children get into a better higher education there is also mounds of evidence that teachers favor the wealthy children in the class wether conciously or unconciously. also the rich can aford to pay more for higher education there for the rich go to places like oxford and harvord not because they are smarter but because of donations to the shcools so the rich can aford that but the poor have to rely on people for help to pay for that kind of schooling so sence the poor have a worse education they inturn get a worst paying job because there is strong evidence of education is equal to the amount of money you earn
3. also if you look at the % of people who are homeless in the us the majority are mentaly handycaped
4. as for the ones on welfair i asume you dont belive that durring the great depression the poor were not poor because of lack of trying they were poor for the same resion now the lack of work to sustain a middle class life style mustly because of the restrictions placed on unions in the US

:D

You found me out! I lied. I am on welfare using the money for drugs and drinking a colt45 while I use this stolen computer.

I'm not sure if this is sarcasm or not but it certainly is realistic.

why do I have to teach history!: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poor_house

Look its all fine and dandy hating poor people but forcing them to work has been an idea since the dawn of time it usually involves slavery or some sort of massive human rights abuse (whether voluntary because of lack of food or forced) now please put the Mirror down and read some history (preferably a crime and punishment course book that 15 year olds learn)

And for the record no it doesn’t work all you do is create a slave class that kicks other people out of work

do you have a problem with kicking people who are able to work off the dole? providing that there are jobs to be had and they are making no reasonable effort go get one?

I stick to the higher class Victorian concept that poor people are poor because they simply do not work hard enough.

*Shackes head*

Eh? But if I don't pay them, they won't send my movies!!! If you have some inside information, please do share.

My brother use to do this all the time. Just change your name a bit. If your name is Bob Smith change it to Robert Smitt. Your mailman will most likely still deliver to your address. You get my point. Also the kicker to this is to sell the new ones that you already have on Ebay or Craigslist. Make some extra money on the Columbia House Scam. You can do this with no conscience either because Columbia House is damn near mob-esque.

i can not belive this

ok let me point out a few things

1. capatilizim needs a working poor the ligistics of it dont work without them
2. there is a cycle of poverty the poor can not afford the schooling that the rich can and even in europe ware such things are sapost to be more equil the rich can still aford the best tudors and the standerdise testing classes to have there children get into a better higher education there is also mounds of evidence that teachers favor the wealthy children in the class wether conciously or unconciously. also the rich can aford to pay more for higher education there for the rich go to places like oxford and harvord not because they are smarter but because of donations to the shcools so the rich can aford that but the poor have to rely on people for help to pay for that kind of schooling so sence the poor have a worse education they inturn get a worst paying job because there is strong evidence of education is equal to the amount of money you earn
3. also if you look at the % of people who are homeless in the us the majority are mentaly handycaped
4. as for the ones on welfair i asume you dont belive that durring the great depression the poor were not poor because of lack of trying they were poor for the same resion now the lack of work to sustain a middle class life style mustly because of the restrictions placed on unions in the US

could you repeat this in english?

How do rich people buy stuff then? They don't get it by sucking cock.
Now now, no need to make sweeping genralisations. After all, the richest entities of all (mega corporations) buy the most valuable thing of all (senators) doing the very same.

speaking as one who was on welfare! BULLSHIT!!!

and how do you know when someone can work but can't find a job vs someone who can work but doesn't make the effort vs someone who can work but just lacks the skills to find a job?

It is all the same thing because it takes effort to go and get the skills. It also takes not breeding in your teens or early twenties when you should be getting marketable skills instaed of trying to show the world what your genitalia can produce.

It can be very hard to get a job. You can easily be over or underqualified. My mom effectively has no full time job and cobbles together enough parttime teaching stuff to bring in a bit of money. We had to allow our housekeeper to work for anotehr family for part of the meek to save some money. So stfu.

your housekeeper?

You have heard of the 'poverty cycle' no?
It is hard to describe explicitly. It is a vicious cycle of mainly social factors (though also several economic ones too) that keeps entire demographics submerged in an undertow, so to speak. Specifically, there are too many factors, and too much case to case variance, to give a definitive list, however I can give some common examples:
The power of the self-fulfilling prophesy
A lack of positive role models in the developement of the individual (and a surplus of negative ones)
Typically higher levels of child abuse, again pointing towards retardation of the development as an individual
Poorly conceived problem-perpetuating affirmative action schemes and welfare, which in reality encourage stagnance and reliance.
Economies of scale, it takes money to make money, and many of those on low incomes lack sufficient capital to lift them selves out of the debt cycle.
The 'income effect' wherein the costs of good take up a higher proportion of a poor persons income, thus giving them a higher elasticity of demand, meaning they eventually end up with either inferior goods, or no goods at all in the incident of a price rise.
The debt cycle, wherein poor people are often entrapped in an neverending state of debt, wherein they are constantly encouraged to consume beyond their means by creditors, simply for the asset that their debt to the company offers to the company balance sheet.
Higher rates of delinquency, drug abuse, and gambling abuse. Usually a result of several social factors, impacts upon entire families and communities in a self-perpetuating manner.

And probably a few more I can't think of.

This is nothing that a little discipline, restraint, hard work, and good morals cant overcome.

Most poor people in first-world nations are poor because they are not skilled, intelligent, capable, or motivated enough to provide valuable services to society.

Ahh so you are poor?

It is all the same thing because it takes effort to go and get the skills. It also takes not breeding in your teens or early twenties when you should be getting marketable skills instaed of trying to show the world what your genitalia can produce.

I have a friend who can't hold a job. He was even let go from McDonalds. not for lack of skill but more because he tends to try to do too much, even when he's not assigned to the task he'll do it. Over enthusiasm can be the best description for it.

he's single, so it can't be that. he's not stupid, he does have employable skills... but what kills him is his personality.

If you make 50,000 dollars a year and spend 60,000 you are broke and in debt. If you make 35,000 and spend 30,000 you are doing better than the guy making 50,000 and spending 60,000.
I believe Charles Dickens put it best:

"Annual income £20, annual expenditure £19 19s 6d, result: happiness.
Annual income £20, annual expenditure £20 0s 6d, result: misery."

*snip*
Well, that about sums it up.

It is all the same thing because it takes effort to go and get the skills. It also takes not breeding in your teens or early twenties when you should be getting marketable skills instaed of trying to show the world what your genitalia can produce.

If they stopped doing then wouldn't we run out of Christians?

your housekeeper?

I paused on that as well. :D

Kind of like a Hollywood type(can't remember her name) talking about coming from a poor background. They could only afford basic cable.

I have a friend who can't hold a job. He was even let go from McDonalds. not for lack of skill but more because he tends to try to do too much, even when he's not assigned to the task he'll do it. Over enthusiasm can be the best description for it.

he's single, so it can't be that. he's not stupid, he does have employable skills... but what kills him is his personality.


I think your friend is either telling you whoppers or he was fired by the dumbest manager in the world. Enthusiastic and hard workers are in demand.

I have a friend who can't hold a job. He was even let go from McDonalds. not for lack of skill but more because he tends to try to do too much, even when he's not assigned to the task he'll do it. Over enthusiasm can be the best description for it.

he's single, so it can't be that. he's not stupid, he does have employable skills... but what kills him is his personality.


I think your friend is either telling you whoppers or he was fired by the dumbest manager in the world. Enthusiastic and hard workers are in demand.

do you have a problem with kicking people who are able to work off the dole? providing that there are jobs to be had and they are making no reasonable effort go get one?

yep food and shelter should be fundamental rights for everyone (unless of course you going to physically drag them into some job nobody wants which I won’t bother explaining)

Course what scares me most is that you think unemployment doesn’t exist and that if everyone was out looking for a job we wouldn’t see what amounts to slavery appear (lo and behold its the crowded days of old all over again)

A lot of people, especially in america have problems with over-spending and spending money that they don't have. People use and abuse credit and then expect that the government will take pity on them. I realize that not all people are finacial gods, but what it really comes down to is self control. Do you really need the big screen tv, the cigarettes, the coffee every morning, the expensive clothes...etc?

This is nothing that a little discipline, restraint, hard work, and good morals cant overcome.
Interesting. Discipline, restraint, hard work, and morals are all of the things undermined by the above social effects. I think we're on to something here...

Ahh so you are poor?

He was wrong. He was describing CEOs.

A lot of people, especially in america have problems with over-spending and spending money that they don't have. People use and abuse credit and then expect that the government will take pity on them. I realize that not all people are finacial gods, but what it really comes down to is self control. Do you really need the big screen tv, the cigarettes, the coffee every morning, the expensive clothes...etc?
No, but I may need food, clothing, and school supplies for a family of 3 to 5 and pray no one gets sick.

All the ignorant people in this thread are the reason America will never have a more comprehensive support system. People oppose because they are ignorant and stupid because they think it is either "omg socialism evil!" or they think all the bullshit these people are saying.

I think your friend is either telling you whoppers or he was fired by the dumbest manager in the world. Enthusiastic and hard workers are in demand.

... you don't know my friend. I said OVER Enthusiastic.

he's actually been banned from several places because of his... mis-placed enthusiasm

Personally, I think a lot of it has to do with drug use or mental illness. Someone whos addicted to crack, spends every [unit of money] on crack. And if your a crack head, no one in their right mind will hire you. Same goes for the poor folks with mental illness, not too many people hire them. Sad but true.

your housekeeper?

That's what we call her. She makes food, the beds, laundry. Not a butler. And we've had her for awhile so it's hard to get rid of someone when you're attached to them. She also stops working at like 7pm...


That's not the point. The point is that it isn't easy to get a job, despite what people may say.

That's what we call her. She makes food, the beds, laundry. Not a butler. And we've had her for awhile so it's hard to get rid of someone when you're attached to them. She also stops working at like 7pm...


That's not the point. The point is that it isn't easy to get a job, despite what people may say.


Awwwwwwwww..... did you have to make the bed for youself? Poor wittle Selly.:rolleyes:

Personally, I think a lot of it has to do with drug use or mental illness. Someone whos addicted to crack, spends every [unit of money] on crack. And if your a crack head, no one in their right mind will hire you. Same goes for the poor folks with mental illness, not too many people hire them. Sad but true.
Or anyone with a record. Or without at least a GED or highschool diploma - a bachelor's, possibly an associate's, degree for a decent job.

That's what we call her. She makes food, the beds, laundry. Not a butler. And we've had her for awhile so it's hard to get rid of someone when you're attached to them. She also stops working at like 7pm...


That's not the point. The point is that it isn't easy to get a job, despite what people may say.

the point about not always being able to get full time work was a good one. lack of employment opportunities is a often the reason that poor people are poor. if you cant get a job, you cant get by.

your mother is a good example of doing what needs to be done to make sure her family has what it needs

the part where you had to cut your housekeepers hours was just silly. not having full time household help does not mean you are poor.

Or anyone with a record. Or without at least a GED or highschool diploma - a bachelor's, possibly an associate's, degree for a decent job.
Well your fault for getting that record. There may have been circumstances that had you drop out but my friend has managed a full time job and high school. his grades weren't spectacular but he managed. I've had other friends drop out work a full time job and still manage to get their GED.

It can be very hard to get a job. You can easily be over or underqualified. My mom effectively has no full time job and cobbles together enough parttime teaching stuff to bring in a bit of money. We had to allow our housekeeper to work for anotehr family for part of the meek to save some money. So stfu.

Do you have a license for that gun? That one you are shooting yourself in the foot with?

Well your fault for getting that record. There may have been circumstances that had you drop out but my friend has managed a full time job and high school. his grades weren't spectacular but he managed. I've had other friends drop ou work a full time job and still manage to their GED.
Doing what?

I have heard several excuses for not earning this much a year, none of which i have found satisfactory. They include:
"but i cant get a job" - Well try harder you dumb idiot. I have never failed to get a job when i tried, even when i had no GCSE's and was under 16.

Yes, good luck getting the same job to sustain you when you're 35, away from mummy and daddy, with rent, electricity, heating, water, food etc. to be paid for, and maybe a child as well.

Well your fault for getting that record. There may have been circumstances that had you drop out but my friend has managed a full time job and high school. his grades weren't spectacular but he managed. I've had other friends drop out work a full time job and still manage to get their GED.

People change, they don't deserve to have their past get in the way of their future.

Do you have a license for that gun? That one you are shooting yourself in the foot with?

I'm not saying we're poor. I'm saying that it isn't always easy to get a middle class job.

Doing what?

One who dropped out worked at Target for $8.00 an hour.
The other used the skills he had to get a job at IBM doing some programming stuff thats way over my head.

People change, they don't deserve to have their past get in the way of their future.
Realistically though, if I don't know someone, it's a major risk for me to simply take them on when all that their past history suggests is that I shouldn't. I will, to some extent, rely on such information.

People change, they don't deserve to have their past get in the way of their future.

of course they do. things that they did or did not do will always have an impact on their lives. how could it be any other way?

now if you want to help them not go back to a life of crime, there needs to be some opportunity for them to get reasonable work. but perhaps they deserve to get at the end of the line behind those who didnt go to prison or drop out of school.

People change, they don't deserve to have their past get in the way of their future.

I understand where some may have sympathy for them, I guess i've rarely had the chance to get in trouble as i have had to work (i'm still in high school) about 30 hours a week so i can help pay for bills. I work very hard at my job and at school.

I hold a bachelor's degree in education, and a bachelor of arts in language and linguistics. I wanted to work as a high school teacher. However, due to the system of employment we have in Queensland for teachers, it is nigh on impossible to get a permanent job as a teacher. Because I am on contract work, I can't get a home loan, approval to rent, a car loan, or a myriad of other things that I would need to be in a position to leave home.

Due to this situation, I have tried to find a job in another field, however, most employers say I'm overqualified, underqualified or not qualified in the right areas. Most employers want experience, which I don't have because unlike most of my friends, I didn't work during school and uni. They also want TAFE (Technical and Further Education) diplomas or certificates. Which I can't afford to pay for. Because I don't have a job.

I can at times go for several weeks, even months, ringing schools and districts to register my availability (I do this twice a week). So I spend all the money I save while working. Were I living on my own, I think I would have been out on the street long ago.

How could I improve my fortunes without some kind of government assistance? Poverty is not all lazy, uneducated bums who smoke, drink and spend their money on wide-screen tv's and sound systems.

of course they do. things that they did or did not do will always have an impact on their lives. how could it be any other way?

now if you want to help them not go back to a life of crime, there needs to be some opportunity for them to get reasonable work. but perhaps they deserve to get at the end of the line behind those who didnt go to prison or drop out of school.

Which will make them more likely to go back to what they know and what will provide them with a living.

Mostly it's because of self-destructive behavior. A lot of people are poor because they are either alcoholics or drug addicts. Another very widespread category is single young women (often girls under 18) having children.

Then, of course, some people are really lazy, and if they can get enough from the state without working, they'll probably grumble about not being able to afford much, but won't bother lifting their asses to actually earn some money.

Finally, some people just have an extremely bad luck.

yea
like my Dad does...

he used to be a trucker/truck business owner

except the company he worked for went bankrupt, he had to sell his extra trucks to pay the bills and he can't drive his own because he is partially blind due to stress and diabetes

Which will make them more likely to go back to what they know and what will provide them with a living.

True but why should those of us who have worked hard and not screwed up as badly or didn't get caught have to take a back seat to those who threw awway their first chance and given a second? Why should the second chance be given value over the first?

I hold a bachelor's degree in education, and a bachelor of arts in language and linguistics. I wanted to work as a high school teacher. However, due to the system of employment we have in Queensland for teachers, it is nigh on impossible to get a permanent job as a teacher. Because I am on contract work, I can't get a home loan, approval to rent, a car loan, or a myriad of other things that I would need to be in a position to leave home.

Due to this situation, I have tried to find a job in another field, however, most employers say I'm overqualified, underqualified or not qualified in the right areas. Most employers want experience, which I don't have because unlike most of my friends, I didn't work during school and uni. They also want TAFE (Technical and Further Education) diplomas or certificates. Which I can't afford to pay for. Because I don't have a job.

I can at times go for several weeks, even months, ringing schools and districts to register my availability (I do this twice a week). So I spend all the money I save while working. Were I living on my own, I think I would have been out on the street long ago.

How could I improve my fortunes without some kind of government assistance? Poverty is not all lazy, uneducated bums who smoke, drink and spend their money on wide-screen tv's and sound systems.

ahhh, there is another reason why some people are poor. lack of family.

if you didnt have a family to back you up so that you do have a place to live when you cant find work, you would be poor.

if someone comes from poverty, their parents cant help them get over those rough spots that happen in everyone's life. for most of us, if we didnt have family to rely on, we might well be poor. i know that my family has been instrumental in helping my husband and i build the life we have now.

of course they do. things that they did or did not do will always have an impact on their lives. how could it be any other way?

now if you want to help them not go back to a life of crime, there needs to be some opportunity for them to get reasonable work. but perhaps they deserve to get at the end of the line behind those who didnt go to prison or drop out of school.

Realistically though, if I don't know someone, it's a major risk for me to simply take them on when all that their past history suggests is that I shouldn't. I will, to some extent, rely on such information.

For sure I agree with both of those. I was attempting to point out yet another situation in which someone now can now be working hard to get work but be unable to find it and be held back unfairly.

The Marxist Answer:
"Because of the abusive upper class that makes fools of the lower classes by exploiting them in every way."

The Non-Marxist Answer:
"Because they are to lazy to get a job."

The Nazi Answer:
"Jews"

The Wrong Answer:
"Cuz they arz fOOlz!"

A Liberal Answer:
"Its all a matter of opinion, if someone is poor it is because they have no real oppurtunities to get good jobs."

My Answer:
"The rich upper class is to lazy to stop the jews from being fOOlz and getting real jobs."

BECAUSE THEY DESERVE TO BE POOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

/sarcasm.

For sure I agree with both of those. I was attempting to point out yet another situation in which someone now can now be working hard to get work but be unable to find it and be held back unfairly.

absolutely. our past can be hard to overcome. bad enough mistakes can mean a life of poverty. the sad thing is that people often make these mistakes before they can know how it will affect the rest of their lives.

absolutely. our past can be hard to overcome. bad enough mistakes can mean a life of poverty. the sad thing is that people often make these mistakes before they can know how it will affect the rest of their lives.


Now I'm being agreed with? This is no fun...... The poor are all lazy, left winged atheist, assholes trying to steal all of our money! Quick! Get Them!

Syuusuke: I was trying to say that people need to have aid to give them a second chance, I was using the criminal record thing as an example. You deserve a first chance without having to go through 10 times more work then someone else just because of the family you were born into....

ahhh, there is another reason why some people are poor. lack of family.

if you didnt have a family to back you up so that you do have a place to live when you cant find work, you would be poor.

if someone comes from poverty, their parents cant help them get over those rough spots that happen in everyone's life. for most of us, if we didnt have family to rely on, we might well be poor. i know that my family has been instrumental in helping my husband and i build the life we have now.

Which was exactly my point, as evidenced by:

Were I living on my own, I think I would have been out on the street long ago.

How could I improve my fortunes without some kind of government assistance? Poverty is not all lazy, uneducated bums who smoke, drink and spend their money on wide-screen tv's and sound systems.

Which was exactly my point, as evidenced by:

yeah your post made that point for me. thats why i quoted you.

and its certainly true that without someone having your back, you have a much higher chance of crashing and burning.

Unlucky_and_unbiddable as true as your words are i guess i have more of a darwanistic view on life. Strong live and the weak die. There is the angle i suppose where you could say that those on welfare are beating the system and thus stronger but i plan to go through my life with as little help as possible. I wasn't exactly born into a rich family.

True but why should those of us who have worked hard and not screwed up as badly or didn't get caught have to take a back seat to those who threw awway their first chance and given a second? Why should the second chance be given value over the first?

I'm not saying we should take a backseat. I'm saying that often times, many people who end up in prison end up there because of a lack of education, an underdeveloped understanding of societal mores and values and a feeling of frustration and resentment that is reinforced by being blamed for their problems. It is very hard for people to break out of a mindset that is reinforced and propped up by those in power, "Poor people are lazy" "Poor people are criminals" "Poor people are uneducated" "Poor people are drug addicts". My students often remarked to me at the low-income school I taught at that, "No matter what I do, I'm poor and nothing can change that. So what's the point in studying and working?"

yeah your post made that point for me. thats why i quoted you.

and its certainly true that without someone having your back, you have a much higher chance of crashing and burning.

sorry, i thought you had misinterpreted my post. :)

Unlucky_and_unbiddable as true as your words are i guess i have more of a darwanistic view on life. Strong live and the weak die. There is the angle i suppose where you could say that those on welfare are beating the system and thus stronger but i plan to go through my life with as little help as possible. I wasn't exactly born into a rich family.

what are you...15?

I'm not saying we should take a backseat. I'm saying that often times, many people who end up in prison end up there because of a lack of education, an underdeveloped understanding of societal mores and values and a feeling of frustration and resentment that is reinforced by being blamed for their problems. It is very hard for people to break out of a mindset that is reinforced and propped up by those in power, "Poor people are lazy" "Poor people are criminals" "Poor people are uneducated" "Poor people are drug addicts". My students often remarked to me at the low-income school I taught at that, "No matter what I do, I'm poor and nothing can change that. So what's the point in studying and working?"

Ok, but is it not themselves who are the problem. While the mindset is reinforced every day, they are still the ones who allow themselves to stay in it. I understand as well as most people what its like. I'm in a school of only about 2000 and in most of my classes and with most of my friends i am the poor kid. Im reminded of that everyday when i pull into school with my 96 chevy and its one of the oldest cars in the parking lot. I hate the feeling of being viewed as infirior, but i do something about i have a job and the things that i have that are poor and im made fun of for are the things ive worked for and been able to get through my accomplishments, and with that i'm able to come back with "Atleast i didn't have to have mummy and daddy buy it for me...

what are you...15?
thank you for the vey subtle cynicism.... but no im 18 and pay the same if not more amount of money in bills as my parents because i have a sense of duty to help them.

Now I'm being agreed with? This is no fun...... The poor are all lazy, left winged atheist, assholes trying to steal all of our money! Quick! Get Them!

Syuusuke: I was trying to say that people need to have aid to give them a second chance, I was using the criminal record thing as an example. You deserve a first chance without having to go through 10 times more work then someone else just because of the family you were born into....

im sorry, ill try to do better next time.

if it were easy to solve the problems of poverty we would already have done it.

Just a correction

I think your friend is either telling you whoppers or he was fired by the dumbest manager in the world. Cheap workers are in demand.

Ok, but is it not themselves who are the problem. While the mindset is reinforced every day, they are still the ones who allow themselves to stay in it. I understand as well as most people what its like. I'm in a school of only about 2000 and in most of my classes and with most of my friends i am the poor kid. Im reminded of that everyday when i pull into school with my 96 chevy and its one of the oldest cars in the parking lot. I hate the feeling of being viewed as infirior, but i do something about i have a job and the things that i have that are poor and im made fun of for are the things ive worked for and been able to get through my accomplishments, and with that i'm able to come back with "Atleast i didn't have to have mummy and daddy buy it for me...

Wait, you have a car and call yourself poor?

I've been working with people living in non-profit housing who are actually poor. Do you eat everyday? Half of these people don't come winter since utilities break the bank. Buy groceries one month and pay your bill the next. Worse yet I was interviewing one of these individuals when the power company cut the electricity. No warning. Bam.

That woman works a minimum wage job and is pretty responsible with her finances. I know because I've worked with her on them. She doesn't have any family either.

I know its a story and not some 'hard data' but you'd be ignorant to think it isn't true and happening all over North America. You'd be heartless to think it's her fault and that she ought to have 'pulled herself up by her bootstraps'.

Everybody hates it when people generalize a group including them but every jackass feels a moral duty to point out how useless, terrible, and insipid the poor are. It might do you all better to actually understand first hand what the hell is going on in their lives before proclaiming your almighty judgement on these individuals.

*puts on protective suit*

most poor people are born into poor families, they stay poor because they lack education, money management skills, or have barriers in their way that make it hard for them to succeed (health issues, etc.)

some families start out okay but have tragedy happen that they never fully recover from

other families start out bad and never get better all the while passing down poor money management skills to their children who continue in the same economic problems.

I grew up in a family who had major health issues, irresponsibility, lack of education and poor money management skills.

im sorry, ill try to do better next time.

if it were easy to solve the problems of poverty we would already have done it.

hahaha well put

Progressive taxes. People realized that any raises they earned would just be taken from them by the government(moving up to the next tax bracket, etc) so they decide to remain poor, because they were able to see that being rich wouldn't get them any more money.

Progressive taxes. People realized that any raises they earned would just be taken from them by the government(moving up to the next tax bracket) so they decide to remain poor, because they were able to see that being rich wouldn't get them any more money.

Are you for real or just a conservative's wet dream?

If that is sarcasm I apologize, but this thread has brought me that much closer to snapping.

I'm not going to pretend that ive lived on the streets. Compared to some i've had every luxury in the world...i'm not disputing that. However, I pay the utlitiy bill and some of the mortgage and insurance and i still manage to save every penny i get and yes i have a car, because inorder to get to my job and to schooll i need it. My family isnt poor but we are very close to getting there because my parents are rather stupid with credit. We're in debt up to our eye balls trying to keep our heads above water. Though very much for my younger sisters sake we pretend like we're doing fine. I'm not saying that my opinion would solve all the worlds problems but i think that some of it could. I could be very wrong and stupid for making that statement, but i the intrest of hearing a reply why not.

Progressive taxes. People realized that any raises they earned would just be taken from them by the government(moving up to the next tax bracket, etc) so they decide to remain poor, because they were able to see that being rich wouldn't get them any more money.

uhhhhh

no.

uhhhhh...
see Ashmoria's reply

Because the bourgeoisie exploit the workers

Here is my answer to the question. In Third World countries, the poor people tend to be poor because of circumstances out of their control - they are poor because of idiotic trade policies instituted by the European Union and the United States; they are poor because of idiotic leadership - which, although in some cases (e.g. Zimbabwe, South Africa) they had control over, in most cases, they were stuck with dictators who were idiots. Finally, most of the people are poor in the Third World because they cannot keep their legs closed - Uganda has gone from having seven million people at independence to thirty million today and is set to hit 130 million by 2050. If a nation's population explodes by 2000% in a century, how on earth can they improve their standards of living?

In First World countries, the poor people tend to be poor because of their own bad choices and laziness. They are poor because they smoke cigarettes and other drugs. They are poor because they drink to heavily. They are poor because they did not stay in school. They are poor because they cannot get off their ass and look for a job (in NZ for example, employers are screaming out for labour, and we still have unemployed people). They are poor because they cannot keep their legs closed.

Just my ten cents.

Ok, i understand that people remain poor for many different reasons. People in developing countries are usually poor due to the lack of opertunities etc.
But what i dont understand is people who live in developed countries like the UK or the USA (or most of europe really), who have had the same opertinities as everyone else at a good education, and yet continue to be poor throughout their lives.

What is it they are doing wrong? Why should anyone earn so low a wage as to need extra money from the government just to stay alive? Even if you have a minimum wage job, dont work weekends, and only do 9 to 5 every day that still gives you £10,300 a year (with assumed 20 day holiday).
Yes, i know £10,300 isnt very much money, but there are many people out there who are earning much less than that, and its these people i have a problem with.

I have heard several excuses for not earning this much a year, none of which i have found satisfactory. They include:
"but i cant get a job" - Well try harder you dumb idiot. I have never failed to get a job when i tried, even when i had no GCSE's and was under 16.
"I cant be bothered to get one, i will live off my savings" - He was honest but i think the guy who said it is a scrownging arsehole.
"I dont have time for a job" - Well make time. Its kinda one of lifes necessities..


Ok, now i have finnished my rant, its time for you guys to add all your opinions :D


You don't seem to appreciate the reality that a *lot* of people who live in poverty were born there. Their parents can't afford school supplies (or sometimes even a bag lunch) so the kids don't perform equally, get so frustrated that they drop out of school, and end up without even the minimum qualifications (ie. a high school diploma) to get a job to break the cycle.

Yes, there are *some* who-- through their decisions to act (or not act) essentially choose poverty. Most don't. Most are being crushed because they don't have the power to fight back against those who do have the power-- big businesses, governments, and rich individuals-- who more often than not use that power to continue to enrich themselves. Maybe your first thought is "they could go vote for change," or "they could take part in some kind of protest." Well, that's fine for those who own a home address at which to be registered, and gas to drive to the polling station. And it's fine for those who can afford decent legal representation when they're locked up for taking part in a peaceful demonstration.

You want to understand poverty-- what causes it and what perpetuates it? Read a book about it by people who know (and actually care).

In First World countries, the poor people tend to be poor because of their own bad choices and laziness. They are poor because they smoke cigarettes and other drugs. They are poor because they drink to heavily. They are poor because they did not stay in school. They are poor because they cannot get off their ass and look for a job (in NZ for example, employers are screaming out for labour, and we still have unemployed people). They are poor because they cannot keep their legs closed.

And, of course, it's purely by chance that the poor tend to have been born to poor families, and are disproportionately members of minorities....

:rolleyes:

Im reminded of that everyday when i pull into school with my 96 chevy and its one of the oldest cars in the parking lot.

If you are talking high school, then you get a :rolleyes:

I didn't get a car till after it. I didn't get a new car for years after that.....

Obviously there is no simple answer as to why the poor are poor.

I happen to think a lot of it stems simply from overly high expectations and the excessive consumption that goes with it. Most of those in industrialized nations who consider themselves poor have no concept of what poor really means. If you want to know poor, take a walk through the slums of Bangkok. That is poor.

If you have a TV, you are not poor. If you have electricity, indoor plumbing, and clean drinking water, you are not poor. If you have access to healthcare (local emergency rooms count – so anyone in the US, Japan, or any European nation I know counts) you are not poor. See a pattern here? There are things most of us take for granted – even those who consider themselves poor don’t realize just how much they really have.

The economist did an interesting article a while back comparing one of the poorest men in the US (some old guy in Appalachia who hasn’t held a job in decades) with one of the richest men in Nigeria (a doctor with a successful practice). Guess which one actually had the higher standard of living?

Get some perspective. I seriously hope the idiot who complained that they had to cut their maid down to part-time was taking the piss. Anyone who seriously bemoans how poor they are that they had to cut back on the servants hours needs to be taken on a quick tour of a third world nation.

If you live in the US, and are reasonably healthy (as in you can function to even a small degree), there is no excuse for being indigent. None at all. Work in fast food, they are almost always hiring. If that isn't enough, get a second job. Check out the local sanitation department, they pay pretty well. Unless you are working more than 80 hours a week, don’t tell me how you should have the right to take what I work my ass off to earn (even then you don’t have a moral right to my earnings).

I think 99% of first-world ‘poverty’ comes down to 3 things (in order of prevalence):
Having excessive expectations – consuming more than they should
Being lazy (or at least lacking in ambition and any drive to improve themselves, which includes taking personal responsibility for one’s situation).
Health issues imposing excessive difficulties (which many people manage to overcome).

uhhhhh

no.

Prove it.

And, of course, it's purely by chance that the poor tend to have been born to poor families, and are disproportionately members of minorities....

:rolleyes:

Take a look at our present Leader of the Opposition down here in NZ, John Key. He was brought up in a state house and his mother was on a low income. Yet he, through hard work, has built up a tidy little fortune (I believe he is worth about $10 to $15 million). If you are willing to work hard, then you will get a comfortable standard of living. What I find when I see South Auckland though (poor area down here) is people that are not only lazy, but waste their money on booze, cigarettes, drugs and Sky TV (there is one Sky satellite for every two houses there). If they spent that money on items of use, then they would be leading a comfortable lifestyle.

Take a look at our present Leader of the Opposition down here in NZ, John Key. He was brought up in a state house and his mother was on a low income. Yet he, through hard work, has built up a tidy little fortune (I believe he is worth about $10 to $15 million).

You can win the lottery, too.

I hold a bachelor's degree in education, and a bachelor of arts- Say no more.

And, of course, it's purely by chance that the poor tend to have been born to poor families, and are disproportionately members of minorities....

:rolleyes:
Obviously there is some kind of 'poor' gene which causes endemic laziness and delinquency.

You can win the lottery, too.

He did not win any lottery, he built up his fortune from the ground.

He did not win any lottery, he built up his fortune from the ground.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analogy

Some mixture of luck and inclination.

Prove it.
Only the money thet puts you in the top tax bracket is taxed at the highest rate. Thus if you earn $39999 p.a. and get taxed 40%, and the next tax bracket is %80 starting at $50k + you would still want the pay rise, because then you would still get taxed at 40% for wages below $40k, and only get charged the higher %80 rate for the money you earned over $50k.

Progressive taxes. People realized that any raises they earned would just be taken from them by the government(moving up to the next tax bracket, etc) so they decide to remain poor, because they were able to see that being rich wouldn't get them any more money.

Prove it.

do you have any idea of how progressive taxes work? that means that low income earners DONT PAY TAX. so there is no downside to earning more money than the government would give you on welfare.

progressive tax means that when you get a raise you are taxed at the higher rate ON THE RAISE not on all your income. so you still get more money.

being rich always gets you more money than being poor. thats the definition of RICH. does donald trump live in the projects?

and finally, its not a contest between poor or rich. its being poor or NOT poor. modest income is better than welfare payments.

Take a look at our present Leader of the Opposition down here in NZ, John Key. He was brought up in a state house and his mother was on a low income. Yet he, through hard work, has built up a tidy little fortune (I believe he is worth about $10 to $15 million). If you are willing to work hard, then you will get a comfortable standard of living. What I find when I see South Auckland though (poor area down here) is people that are not only lazy, but waste their money on booze, cigarettes, drugs and Sky TV (there is one Sky satellite for every two houses there). If they spent that money on items of use, then they would be leading a comfortable lifestyle.

Ahhh 'the myth of the self-made man'. A rarity in NZ, I hear. But it seems you are evidence to contradict that.

born in USA the myth of the self made man was one of the earliest social phenomenon used to accelerate the already rampant spread of capitalism, and indoctrinate it into the social values of the citizens (still not fully socialised for capitalism). The basic premise being that if Joe blogs made it to the top, you can too. Poster boys of entrepreneurial success would be propped up to circulate the notion that any man who works hard, saves hard, and works towards the american dream can be a success.

Unfortunately for the USA, it then led to another social phenomenon, in tandem with the protestant ethic (also a baby at this time, in response to capitalism) to form 'Blaming the poor' Syndrome.From which it seems you suffer. Blaming the poor syndrome follows this logic "If he made it to the top through smart decision and a good work ethic, then being at the top is indicative of a)intelligence, b) good morals. Thus all rich people are such because they are virtuous. On the inverse, this would mean that the only reason poor people are still poor is because the are either a)stupid or b) lacking in morals. Thus poor people are to blame for their poverty, because it is a result of their lack of virtue and morals".

Socio-economics take on the history of capitalism. Fascinating stuff.

Say no more.

Unlike most of my cohort, I actually elected to do education. Most of them did it because it was the only uni course they could get into. I on the other hand, got excellent year 12 results and could have done pretty much anything. I also got in the top 15% of my graduating class. I also realise now what a fundamental error I made. Had I taken a hairdressing apprenticeship or childcare apprenticeship when it was offered to me at 15, I would probably be far better off financially now. unfortunately, Australians still have a backward attitude towards university education. :rolleyes:

Take a look at our present Leader of the Opposition down here in NZ, John Key. He was brought up in a state house and his mother was on a low income. Yet he, through hard work, has built up a tidy little fortune (I believe he is worth about $10 to $15 million). If you are willing to work hard, then you will get a comfortable standard of living. What I find when I see South Auckland though (poor area down here) is people that are not only lazy, but waste their money on booze, cigarettes, drugs and Sky TV (there is one Sky satellite for every two houses there). If they spent that money on items of use, then they would be leading a comfortable lifestyle.

Yeah, well, I grew up in Woodridge (socially deprived area of Queensland) and I see things differently. When children are raised to believe that there is no hope for them (ie. "Even if I'm smart enough, I can't go to uni anyway, so why study in school?" and the parents who pull their kids out at the end of compulsory schooling because they make more money on the dole than on Austudy), what do you think the attitude is going to be of those kids? It makes it that much harder for them to break out of the cycle, that much harder for them. There comes a point where people just give up. Especially when they've never known another way.

And not everyone is like that anyway. See my big long post about my current situation for an example. If I didn't have parents who support me, I would, as a uni graduate, probably be on the streets.

Unlike most of my cohort, I actually elected to do education. Most of them did it because it was the only uni course they could get into. I on the other hand, got excellent year 12 results and could have done pretty much anything. I also got in the top 15% of my graduating class. Oh yeah, yeah. Sure you did. *pats on back* :P I also realise now what a fundamental error I made. Had I taken a hairdressing apprenticeship or childcare apprenticeship when it was offered to me at 15, I would probably be far better off financially now. unfortunately, Australians still have a backward attitude towards university education. :rolleyes:
Yes and no. Yes Australian culture does have a backward view on academia in general. However, no, that is not the reason why it would have been better for you to have qualified yourself in a trade.

The real reason being that despite a lack of social regard for academia, education is still widely(and erroneously) held as a guaranteed one-way ticket to wealth and prosperity. Thus every kid who graduates from highschool goes and does a uni degree by default, unless there is a compelling decision or reason not to. Unfortunately, most kids are actually of average ability (by definition), thus most of them end up doing arts, teaching or a combination of the above. This has two main implications. Firstly, it means that the said students receive their respective degrees printed on toilet paper, seeing as that is the only thing it'll be good for (due to an enormous economic oversupply of people with tertiary qualifications in 'nothing specific'). the second result is that all of the highschool drop-outs who messed around getting pregnant and stoned all those years ago, before eventually getting of their arses and getting some kind of trade are actually part of an small and elite group privelidged enough to be caught in the middle of an undersupply.

That is what makes Australia the land where carpenters and plumbers are paid more than doctors and Lawyers.

And not everyone is like that anyway. See my big long post about my current situation for an example. If I didn't have parents who support me, I would, as a uni graduate, probably be on the streets. Oh come on. You know that isn't true. If you didn't have your parents to house and support you, you would probably be in your own apartment supporting yourself with an unskilled job. Perhaps, if that was too hard, you might even find yourself in your own apartment living off the dole and rent assistance. However, if even that was too much, you could even find yourself in welfare housing on subsidised rent, on the dole, painting all day. One thing is for sure, you wouldn't end up on the street.

Because they are too lazy to work. Its their own fault you know! If they only had the motivation of the rich people, then they wouldn't be poor

Hehe, I'm really poor, and kind of proud about it :)

Hypothetically, there could be a woman, with a husband and two kids, who's been a stay-at-home mother for a while, but decides to get a job at, say, a garden shop. It's a small business, and it doesn't pay well, but it's fun, and it's what she loves, and it gives her a sense of independence, and it's flexible enough that she can work around her kid's schedules. Well, a couple years later, while she's still at the job, her husband leaves her for another woman, and one kid is in college, and the other is pursuing acting, and so always needs these expensive things, like headshots and singing lessons and dance shoes. She's kind of stuck now. Suddenly, she's supposed to support herself, and her kids, all by herself, when for twenty years, she thought she didn't have to. She's got a job that she loves, that gives her everything she needs except money, and her degree is in something that's not useful any more, and she's grateful for tax cuts and crap like from the government.



Nah, that's ridiculous...it could never happen. You're right, poor people are asses.

Poor people are poor because they don't work. (duh)

People don't work either because they are lazy, dumb, unintelligent, etc (actual lack of opportunity is VERY rare)

The Census proved that nearly all poor people either don't work full time, don't work for a long time, or don't work at all. (This is NOT opinion)

If they don't work full time they are just lazy - they can get a job, so there is no excuse for not working full time.

If they don't work for long they are probably idiots - they don't work hard, think that this job isn't 'right for them' when the need a job, treat people badly, etc.

If they don't work at all, well, they're just pathetic - They can't be more of an idiot than people that work at McDonald's. You can't tell me they can't fill an order of fries or be a janitor because of any 'lack of opportunity.'

The people that actually don't work because of lack of opportunity do not remain poor - opportunity comes along eventually.

Poor people are poor because they don't work. (duh)

People don't work either because they are lazy, dumb, unintelligent, etc (actual lack of opportunity is VERY rare)

The Census proved that nearly all poor people either don't work full time, don't work for a long time, or don't work at all. (This is NOT opinion)

If they don't work full time they are just lazy - they can get a job, so there is no excuse for not working full time.

If they don't work for long they are probably idiots - they don't work hard, think that this job isn't 'right for them' when the need a job, treat people badly, etc.

If they don't work at all, well, they're just pathetic - They can't be more of an idiot than people that work at McDonald's. You can't tell me they can't fill an order of fries or be a janitor because of any 'lack of opportunity.'

The people that actually don't work because of lack of opportunity do not remain poor - opportunity comes along eventually.

Yeah, I don't feel bad at all for people who don't work full time. Having kids to take care of, or being mentally ill, or all the crap they peddle as excuses. Totally lame. Besides, everybody knows that things like schizophrenia and single parenthood are choices, just like being gay or being a racial minority. Man, I don't know where these crazies get off claiming they have a right to social assistance. What's that about?

No one should really comment on this issue unless:
A) They have read Nickled & Dimed or other good research on the subject. (It is considered almost the pre-eminent widey available book on the working poor.
B) They grew up poor
C) They are poor
D) They have close family members in poverty or know what it is like somehow


I grew up in an middle to upper middle class family so I cannot really comment. I read some of the abovementioned book and some research some time ago.

I think it is easy to get stuck in what is called a dead end job. It is easiest for single mothers to end up in this predicament. I mean look around at people in the service industry in their 40s and 50s working full time to try to support their family. Just look at some of the people waiting tables, and such. They will surprise you with what they tell you and why. Some had to take care of family because of health problems, others had children, etc. Its not all "laziness"

At the same time the young and poor can pull themselves up. I have a friend whose father has been in prison all her life, her mother died at a young age, she lived in the "ghetto", lived in what could be considered a very run down house when living nearby. She is currently on full scholarship and is getting through college.

Mebey the poor are poor because humans in this age insist on gaugeing there self worth on how much property thay have, witch by the way for thouse among you who think property is power among your peers are sadly mistaken.
Could also be because when someone who douse not want to conform to the model persented thay tend not to do well, however im sure there are as many reasons for being poor as there are poor people.

Poverty is a mindset.

Ok, now i have finnished my rant,

Finnishing a rant = taking it to Helsinki? ;)

Anyway, a good idea: read the "Compendium" of Karl Marx's "Das Kapital" made by italian anarchist Cafiero. It explains some things about exploitation and how many WORKERS were poor even in the superpower Victorian Britain.

Yep. Most workers are poor.

Poverty is a mindset.

poverty is a social relation with actual real world consequences.

who have had the same opertinities as everyone else at a good education

Fail.

My daughter's father is poor. He lives with his wife in her mother's house, at the age of 28.

Now, he is my ex, so I don't have very many nice things to say about him, but there are a couple of factors that impact this. Neither he nor his wife have had any education outside of American public highschool - which really isn't the best in the world. He's had the same job for the last 10 years (since he got out of highschool), is a full time job, but he's reached the point where he can't be replaced in his department - and therefore cannot be promoted. At the top of the pay scale, he's still not able to afford the rent on even a studio apartment in the NorthEast section of the US where he lives and buy food or pay utilities at the same time. His wife works in the paint department in Home Depot, also full time, but together they cannot afford a one-bedroom apartment and car payments to get them to and from work, as well as buy food or pay utilites at the same time. Neither of them are working for minimum wage, but they recieve no welfare either... except for that of her mother, I mean.

So, part of the reason they are poor is that the cost of living is so high in that section of the country that the 1.5% yearly raise he gets doesn't cover increased living costs in the slightest. Another part of the reason is that there is no public transportation anywhere near them, so they have to have a car. There's just no other option. Part of the reason is that yes, he is a lazy f*cktard, but more importantly he lacks the guts to hand in his resignation and find a better job with advancement possibilities. He also drinks his (ever increasing) weight in soda every four days, so his spending habits aren't exactly under control.

You'd think that a family with two full time incomes would be able to afford the minimums, no matter the jobs, but that's not the way it works in some places. That's a part of the equation that some people don't consider. I guess he's lucky to have a mother-in-law who can provide them with a cheaper roof over there head than they could get anywhere else, otherwise they'd be six different levels of screwed.

poverty is a social relation with actual real world consequences.
Buddhist ascetic monk: Poor in property? Yes. In poverty? No.

Suicidal lonely Taiwanese businessman: Poor in property? No. In poverty?...

Fact of the matter is that whether or not you consider yourself poor (as in unhappy with the things available to you in your life) is a matter of perspective, as is indeed whether or not you are truly willing to do something about it.

Plus, you can hardly deny that there is a certain mindset which is almost 100% likely to lead you into economic poverty. I vehemently disagree with the idea that there are that many people in the world who are actually useless, who actually have no ability to make others happy to speak of. If they have an ability or a skill, they can sell it, they just have to work for it. Many people do and make a lot of money.

Even a single person working their way out of economic poverty is proof that poverty has an individual and mental aspect to it which is powerful enough to drown out the social and political aspects.

Ok, i understand that people remain poor for many different reasons. People in developing countries are usually poor due to the lack of opertunities etc.
But what i dont understand is people who live in developed countries like the UK or the USA (or most of europe really), who have had the same opertinities as everyone else at a good education, and yet continue to be poor throughout their lives.

What is it they are doing wrong? Why should anyone earn so low a wage as to need extra money from the government just to stay alive? Even if you have a minimum wage job, dont work weekends, and only do 9 to 5 every day that still gives you £10,300 a year (with assumed 20 day holiday).
Yes, i know £10,300 isnt very much money, but there are many people out there who are earning much less than that, and its these people i have a problem with.

I have heard several excuses for not earning this much a year, none of which i have found satisfactory. They include:
"but i cant get a job" - Well try harder you dumb idiot. I have never failed to get a job when i tried, even when i had no GCSE's and was under 16.
"I cant be bothered to get one, i will live off my savings" - He was honest but i think the guy who said it is a scrownging arsehole.
"I dont have time for a job" - Well make time. Its kinda one of lifes necessities..


Ok, now i have finnished my rant, its time for you guys to add all your opinions :D

You never had problems finding a job? Well, lucky you.
I've had a variety of jobs in my life, and was finally forced to move to another country to find one. While this does work ok for me, I do understand that a single mother with 3 children might find it next to impossible.
Which is also where the "I don't have time" bit comes in. Ok, I can't imagine someone not having time to do a full time job and remain a responsible parent. But a half-time job should be possible... if you can find one, that it.

A friend of my mother is a single mom with two kids. Her education includes finishing grammar school, studying social work, training to become a nurse, work experience as a nurse, and training to become a teacher for nursing.
She hasn't been able to find a job in over 7 years now, despite searching and doing virtually everything (including being a cleaning woman for 6 months). She can't work full time, as she can only find someone to look after her youngest for 4-5 hours a day. And with the situation as it is in Germany, there simply are no jobs for her. Right now, she's working at some sort of office, doing mostly filing and copying, for 1Euro/hour. And she's trying to get a foot on the ground selling Tupperware. It's enough to feed and dress the kids, just about.

Because they're lazy and worthless and deserve to be.

Kidding, but I know someone said that before I did.

Fact of the matter is that whether or not you consider yourself poor (as in unhappy with the things available to you in your life) is a matter of perspective, as is indeed whether or not you are truly willing to do something about it.

When you cannot spare anything out of your wage for future needs, you're poor.
When you cannot afford anything but the strictly necessary to survive, you're poor.
Being poor is a fact.


If they have an ability or a skill, they can sell it, they just have to work for it. Many people do and make a lot of money.

Many. How many? A lot? How much?
You seem to forget that there is a market of labour. Laws of demand and offer apply to this market also. Hence, if your ability is very common, there will be a lousy wage for it, and you'll be poor. If your ability isn't requested, there will be no one willing to pay you for your work, and you'll be poor. And, of course, if you're poor, you cannot pay for education and you'll gain no new ability.

Even a single person working their way out of economic poverty is proof that poverty has an individual and mental aspect to it which is powerful enough to drown out the social and political aspects.
No. Even a single person working its way out of economic poverty proves that sometimes even poor people can step out of poverty with lots of hard work and some luck. Period. Don't try logic jumps here...

To summarise:
Reducing poverty to disoccupation or lack of will is partial and falsely moralistic.
The main issue in poverty is that most of the workers (WORKer, a person who WORKS) all around the world don't get paid enough even for their basical needs.

Ok, i understand that people remain poor for many different reasons. People in developing countries are usually poor due to the lack of opertunities etc.
But what i dont understand is people who live in developed countries like the UK or the USA (or most of europe really), who have had the same opertinities as everyone else at a good education, and yet continue to be poor throughout their lives.

What is it they are doing wrong? Why should anyone earn so low a wage as to need extra money from the government just to stay alive? Even if you have a minimum wage job, dont work weekends, and only do 9 to 5 every day that still gives you £10,300 a year (with assumed 20 day holiday).
Yes, i know £10,300 isnt very much money, but there are many people out there who are earning much less than that, and its these people i have a problem with.

I have heard several excuses for not earning this much a year, none of which i have found satisfactory. They include:
"but i cant get a job" - Well try harder you dumb idiot. I have never failed to get a job when i tried, even when i had no GCSE's and was under 16.
"I cant be bothered to get one, i will live off my savings" - He was honest but i think the guy who said it is a scrownging arsehole.
"I dont have time for a job" - Well make time. Its kinda one of lifes necessities..


Ok, now i have finnished my rant, its time for you guys to add all your opinions :D

debt, the high cost of living in many developed countries.
you can be really quite poor on, say, a grand a month if 2-300 is going out in rent straight away, and 400 is going out to the banks to repay debt straight away. factor in food and essentials and you're kinda poor.
in short: the realities of life.

and people in capitalist societies DO NOT have the same opportunities as everyone else. it would be hard to make that further from the truth.

No one should really comment on this issue unless:
A) They have read Nickled & Dimed or other good research on the subject. (It is considered almost the pre-eminent widey available book on the working poor.
hmmm i should read that.
i'd personally recommend Hard Work (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hard-Work-Life-Low-pay-Britain/dp/0747564159/ref=pd_ka_1/203-7459496-9207943?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1174470027&sr=8-1) by Polly Toynbee. a lot.

I grew up in an middle to upper middle class family so I cannot really comment. I read some of the abovementioned book and some research some time ago.

I think it is easy to get stuck in what is called a dead end job. It is easiest for single mothers to end up in this predicament. I mean look around at people in the service industry in their 40s and 50s working full time to try to support their family. Just look at some of the people waiting tables, and such. They will surprise you with what they tell you and why. Some had to take care of family because of health problems, others had children, etc. Its not all "laziness"
in my experience, poor people have been amongst the hardest working people i've known. but that's my personal experience

At the same time the young and poor can pull themselves up. I have a friend whose father has been in prison all her life, her mother died at a young age, she lived in the "ghetto", lived in what could be considered a very run down house when living nearby. She is currently on full scholarship and is getting through college.

sometimes you just need a break - one thing to go right in your life and the rest can fall into place. often these are things you can't plan for (ditto for the reverse: often the most crippling of things are those you can't plan for...)

and people in capitalist societies DO NOT have the same opportunities as everyone else. it would be hard to make that further from the truth.

Indeed. If nothing else, the fact that we don't have the same opportunities in life is the driving force of our present economy. Otherwise i'd have been born with wealth, won a Rhodes scholarship and in all likelihood had employers offering me jobs instead of having to practically beg for them and getting nowhere.

But proverbially speaking - as it is now, someone has to bag the groceries, I guess.

Indeed. If nothing else, the fact that we don't have the same opportunities in life is the driving force of our present economy. Otherwise i'd have been born with wealth, won a Rhodes scholarship and in all likelihood had employers offering me jobs instead of having to practically beg for them and getting nowhere.
quite. i'm personally pretty damn lucky, but i'm not narrow minded enough to think its like this for everyone...

But proverbially speaking - as it is now, someone has to bag the groceries, I guess.
lol nice proverb :p

Oh come on. You know that isn't true. If you didn't have your parents to house and support you, you would probably be in your own apartment supporting yourself with an unskilled job. Perhaps, if that was too hard, you might even find yourself in your own apartment living off the dole and rent assistance. However, if even that was too much, you could even find yourself in welfare housing on subsidised rent, on the dole, painting all day. One thing is for sure, you wouldn't end up on the street.

Yeah, except that I worked last year. So, were I to apply for the dole, I have to have been out of work for 6 weeks. Then, because I haven't earned enough, and I am not yet old enough, I can't get rent assistance unless my parents throw me out of home. Which they won't do. Then, because of the nature of my work, I might pick up a 6 week contract which would mean I get stripped from the dole and any other benefits and would have to start the process again. So chances are I would end up in a shelter or on the street or sleeping on friends' couches.

Oh yeah, yeah. Sure you did. *pats on back* :P
Yes and no. Yes Australian culture does have a backward view on academia in general. However, no, that is not the reason why it would have been better for you to have qualified yourself in a trade.

The real reason being that despite a lack of social regard for academia, education is still widely(and erroneously) held as a guaranteed one-way ticket to wealth and prosperity. Thus every kid who graduates from highschool goes and does a uni degree by default, unless there is a compelling decision or reason not to. Unfortunately, most kids are actually of average ability (by definition), thus most of them end up doing arts, teaching or a combination of the above. This has two main implications. Firstly, it means that the said students receive their respective degrees printed on toilet paper, seeing as that is the only thing it'll be good for (due to an enormous economic oversupply of people with tertiary qualifications in 'nothing specific'). the second result is that all of the highschool drop-outs who messed around getting pregnant and stoned all those years ago, before eventually getting of their arses and getting some kind of trade are actually part of an small and elite group privelidged enough to be caught in the middle of an undersupply.

That is what makes Australia the land where carpenters and plumbers are paid more than doctors and Lawyers.

Uh, I am actually the only person out of my very wide circle of friends that is a uni graduate. And I'm the only one who's basically jobless. Every employer I have spoken to has told me they want TAFE courses, despite the fact that TAFE students resit their exams if they fail, and that TAFE is for the few deadbeats who are so drugfucked or just plain stupid that they couldn't even make it into uni.

And please stop stereotyping Arts students. Some of us just made bad choices when deciding on tertiary education. I really wish now that I had done law when I had the opportunity.

Over 10 pages of replies and still no response from the OP. Disapointing.

Oh yeah, yeah. Sure you did. *pats on back* :P
Yes and no. Yes Australian culture does have a backward view on academia in general. However, no, that is not the reason why it would have been better for you to have qualified yourself in a trade.

The real reason being that despite a lack of social regard for academia, education is still widely(and erroneously) held as a guaranteed one-way ticket to wealth and prosperity. Thus every kid who graduates from highschool goes and does a uni degree by default, unless there is a compelling decision or reason not to. Unfortunately, most kids are actually of average ability (by definition), thus most of them end up doing arts, teaching or a combination of the above. This has two main implications. Firstly, it means that the said students receive their respective degrees printed on toilet paper, seeing as that is the only thing it'll be good for (due to an enormous economic oversupply of people with tertiary qualifications in 'nothing specific'). the second result is that all of the highschool drop-outs who messed around getting pregnant and stoned all those years ago, before eventually getting of their arses and getting some kind of trade are actually part of an small and elite group privelidged enough to be caught in the middle of an undersupply.

That is what makes Australia the land where carpenters and plumbers are paid more than doctors and Lawyers.

hehe here in the UK the trade association i work for deals with owner/managers of (usually) SME retailing businesses. one of the most common jokes i hear from them at conferences and the like is:

new employee starting.
"so, you have a first class degree in economics do you? good for you! here's a mop. go scrub the floor."


degrees are kinda worth shit in this country too, because of oversupply. sadly that makes those of us who don't have them (like me - a dropout) even more 'unqualified' :rolleyes: :p

I um....wow. I think it's apparent that you don't understand many realities of life.

wow, I agree with Arthais... lol

ultimately because popular culture coerces a large majority of everyone, rich and poor alike, to have their priorities completely where the sun don't shine.

partialy, though indirectly, this is ascerbated by there being too many of us to live off the land. that there exists a legal structure that also oppressess any atempt to do so is partialy a symtom. much as it was in ancient rome.

the reality of life is that it is up to everyone to avoid screwing everything up for each other.
adamant refusal to do so, ultimately screws everything up for everyone.
(reguardless of whatever gods, governments, or any damd thing else sees fit to exist)

=^^=
.../\...

Ok, i understand that people remain poor for many different reasons. People in developing countries are usually poor due to the lack of opertunities etc.
But what i dont understand is people who live in developed countries like the UK or the USA (or most of europe really), who have had the same opertinities as everyone else at a good education, and yet continue to be poor throughout their lives.

What is it they are doing wrong? Why should anyone earn so low a wage as to need extra money from the government just to stay alive? Even if you have a minimum wage job, dont work weekends, and only do 9 to 5 every day that still gives you £10,300 a year (with assumed 20 day holiday).
Yes, i know £10,300 isnt very much money, but there are many people out there who are earning much less than that, and its these people i have a problem with.

I have heard several excuses for not earning this much a year, none of which i have found satisfactory. They include:
"but i cant get a job" - Well try harder you dumb idiot. I have never failed to get a job when i tried, even when i had no GCSE's and was under 16.
"I cant be bothered to get one, i will live off my savings" - He was honest but i think the guy who said it is a scrownging arsehole.
"I dont have time for a job" - Well make time. Its kinda one of lifes necessities..


Ok, now i have finnished my rant, its time for you guys to add all your opinions :D

Undervalued labor, such as results from Walmart's anti-union practices

A political system hostile to a growing middle class. Politicians like NY's governor Pataki who said said that underfunded schools are a good thing because janitors and file clerks have to come from somewhere. Or former Federal Reserve Chairman Greenspan who said that he sees it as his job to create "worker insecurity."

Shifting economics, such as outsourcing. There was a time when you could support a family of four on the wages of a single worker with a high school education. Not anymore.

Employers holding all the cards. I'm not certain what field it's in that you claim you've "always gotten a job," but a lot of the jobs that are "always available" are because the bosses treat their employees like shit and pay them so little money that you couldn't even feed yourself with them. I used to work at a supermarket that gave you a guaranteed raise every year, but would schedule you for 48 hours a week (part time) your first year then 16 hours a week after that. Ask for a single day off and you'd get 4 hours a week until you complained to the union.

Your "rant," is just that. Culturally ignorant vitriol from an sympathizer of economic bullies.

Yes, good luck getting the same job to sustain you when you're 35, away from mummy and daddy, with rent, electricity, heating, water, food etc. to be paid for, and maybe a child as well.

Ok, i will do. I worked in a nursing home, along with many other staff members who were, yes thats right, 35 (or above) with rent, electricity heating, water, food ect to pay for. Yes, they didnt have that much spare cash to throw around, but they werent living of benifits.

Ok, i will do. I worked in a nursing home, along with many other staff members who were, yes thats right, 35 (or above) with rent, electricity heating, water, food ect to pay for. Yes, they didnt have that much spare cash to throw around, but they werent living of benifits.

Which, funnily enough, is just what my mom did until she developed a bad case of neurodermitis, caused by the disinfectant, and her employer gave her the sack.

I realize that not all people are finacial gods, but what it really comes down to is self control. Do you really need the big screen tv, the cigarettes, the coffee every morning, the expensive clothes...etc?

Yes. It's the American Dream, to own a house and buy what you want, when you want.

Complex, diffuse causes.

Obviously tragedy, misfortune, stupidity, laziness and lack of education play major roles.

Complex, diffuse causes.

Obviously tragedy, misfortune, stupidity, laziness and lack of education play major roles.

QFFT

Well, because poor tends to mean "lacking in money".

I volunteer Friday nights to help the homeless and I've had the chance to speak with them and they are homeless for a few reasons. Some are there because they have made bad choices true, however many there because they have bad luck. A lot of them are intelligent, want to work and want a home. however some have bad credit, no references, no work clothes like a suit or no address. All of these cause major problems when looking for a job or home. Its just sad to see these good, smart people on the streets because of some bad luck and all they need is a helping hand. You can't always blame people for the situation they are in.

When you cannot spare anything out of your wage for future needs, you're poor.
When you cannot afford anything but the strictly necessary to survive, you're poor.
Being poor is a fact.
If that's all you want it to reduce to, you will have to abandon any pretensions that this is inherently bad. The Buddhist monk may be economically poor (and indeed unemployed), but that's hardly a bad thing.

You seem to forget that there is a market of labour. Laws of demand and offer apply to this market also. Hence, if your ability is very common, there will be a lousy wage for it, and you'll be poor.
There are no two people exactly alike. So the foundation for differentiation is there. Whether it's a fairly unique combination of skills, the way you apply yourself or just whether or not you get along with other people at work are all ways to reduce the elasticity of demand for your particular skill. Afterall, it's not like employers use a big diagram to figure out wages - they negotiate for them.

But if you somehow manage not to add anything special to what you can do, then I agree that your position is compromised. Take for example petrol stations - the profit the actual stations make is miniscule, precisely because they find it so difficult to differentiate from others.

If your ability isn't requested, there will be no one willing to pay you for your work, and you'll be poor. And, of course, if you're poor, you cannot pay for education and you'll gain no new ability.
Or rather, that is the excuse many people use. Fact of the matter is that a vocational studies course isn't all that expensive, if you're willing to do it at night after work for example.

How many poor people have bad habits, like drinking and smoking, or going to the pub virtually every night? How many poor black guys in the US spend all their money on fancy clothes and "bling" alloys for their shabby old cars? Hell, how many poor people play the lottery every week?

No. Even a single person working its way out of economic poverty proves that sometimes even poor people can step out of poverty with lots of hard work and some luck. Period. Don't try logic jumps here...
It wasn't a jump. If you're going to say that the economic system or society are responsible for people being poor, then people working their way out of poverty is proof that there are other things more specific to the individual and his or her decisions which can overcome the social and economic hurdles.

To summarise:
Reducing poverty to disoccupation or lack of will is partial and falsely moralistic.
I reduce poverty to an inability to ask oneself why one is poor and what one can do about it. What causes the inability is different for everyone, but until that personal issue is sorted out, it doesn't matter in the slightest what the labour market looks like, or even whether there exists a labour market in the first place.

The main issue in poverty is that most of the workers (WORKer, a person who WORKS) all around the world don't get paid enough even for their basical needs.
Their needs are irrelevant when it comes to other people's wage decisions. Fact is that their abilities count for others, and their needs count only for themselves. It's my job to find something to do which pays for my needs, it's not someone else's job to spend their sleepless nights thinking about how to best accommodate me. They've got their own lives to worry about.

I volunteer Friday nights to help the homeless and I've had the chance to speak with them and they are homeless for a few reasons. Some are there because they have made bad choices true, however many there because they have bad luck.
Well, what is "luck"? Is good luck perhaps just the ability to see and seize opportunities when they come along? Afterall, to take an extreme example: if I decide not to go to an employers' covention at uni this week, and if I had I would have found my dream job, then what sort of luck do I have?

You would probably be tempted to call it good luck if I had gone and got the job. But is it bad luck if I just couldn't be bothered to go to the convention in the first place?

And can you make "luck" a variable to consider when making policies?

This is why poor people are poor. (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/82/316991530_4381e9ab5e_o.jpg)

This is why poor people are poor. (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/82/316991530_4381e9ab5e_o.jpg)

hehe very good :)

How many poor black guys in the US spend all their money on fancy clothes and "bling" alloys for their shabby old cars?

Not sure why they have to be "Black". I see just as many white, latino, and every other race spending money on some luxury goods.

It may be a reaction to how people act actually, and perceptions of people. My roommate is "black" with a shabby old car he does not do anything with. He is almost a college graduate, getting through college, a good student.

Yet when I ride with him he gets harassed by the police (for being black, yes we were pulled over and frisked for NO reason and didnt get a ticket because the officers were wrong), people make fun of his car (White people for being old they make sarcastic comments just walking past, black people because he hasnt done any of that to his car). If I was him I would spend money on rims etc. too just to say F U to all these people.

So my friend can get harassed, made fun of, and looked down upon for driving an old car and shouldnt do anything to upgrade its image while my other friend (who is also black and younger than that) can have her parents (doctors) give her a brand new $20,000 car for nothing?

Despite what the rap videos show and all that, you don't know how these people got what they got etc. Can't judge somebody just by that. There is an underground market where some of this is cheaper, they get stuff from family members, etc. My roommate's family exchanges clothes a lot with each other, etc. Its not all "poor black people spending money on unnecessary stuff" like you make it sound.

My roommate's family exchanges clothes a lot with each other, etc. Its not all "poor black people spending money on unnecessary stuff" like you make it sound.
Hey, I've never even been in the States, so I'm hardly talking from first-hand experience.

But it would be difficult to deny that for a certain percentage of poor "ghetto" youngsters, rap videos and the image they portray play a pretty big role. I probably shouldn't have said "black", you're right, other people there do it too.

But if people there spend their hard-earned cash on trying to look like some rapstar, then that is not being smart with their money, correct? What I meant to say is that poor people seem to manage to have cash for all sorts of things they enjoy but which don't help them get out of economic poverty.

given that in all the ten thousand plus years of 'civilization' there have been poor people, it's probably not a bug. in fact, really it is one of the primary features of class society. you can't blame it on anything other than the existence of such societies themselves.

given that in all the ten thousand plus years of 'civilization' there have been poor people, it's probably not a bug. in fact, really it is one of the primary features of class society. you can't blame it on anything other than the existence of such societies themselves.
Correlation does not imply causation.

And besides, you're about 70 years too late with your talk about class societies. This is a time when students start websites and sell them a few years later for billions of dollars.

Correlation does not imply causation.

not mere correlation, no. but since it is correlation over a wide array of class societies, across huge variances in technology and social organization, and originates with them, then it would be ludicrous to deny a causal relation.

And besides, you're about 70 years too late with your talk about class societies. This is a time when students start websites and sell them a few years later for billions of dollars.

and this is supposed to argue against the existence of classes?