NationStates Jolt Archive

Poll coming soon. Options are:
Rome
Greek
Egypt
Persia
Mongol Horde (technically not a civilization, but they had a big enough effect on history that I figure we should include them)
Aztecs/Mayans (Yeah, I know. Deal.)
Magadha (Included for obscurity)
Chinese Dynasties
Phoenicia

All these are pre-common era, and are mostly just all the ones I could think of off the top of my head. If you think I forgot an important one, feel free to shove me in a corner and stone me to death. But, please realize, I probably just didn't include them because they weren't awesome enough.

Go Mongols!
Mongol! Mongol! Mongol!

This is more "weirdness" than "awesomeness", but didn't the Incas invent bureaucracy without inventing writing and invent pensions without inventing money?

I also heard that they sometimes had a llama perform a sacrifice (instead of being a sacrifice as usual). The victim? Jugs of beer.

uhh...I don't think the Mongols count as an ANCIENT Civilization

maybe the Huns or the Scythians instead

I'll go with the Greeks

They were all pretty awsome in there own way, tho i am rather fond of the greeks (tho after the TV series with much random nakedness i am rather fond of Rome too)

This is more "weirdness" than "awesomeness", but didn't the Incas invent bureaucracy without inventing writing and invent pensions without inventing money?

I also heard that they sometimes had a llama perform a sacrifice (instead of being a sacrifice as usual). The victim? Jugs of beer.

Nope, that's considered awesome. I can't believe I forgot to include the Incas, please throw me in a corner and stone me to death.

uhh...I don't think the Mongols count as an ANCIENT Civilization

maybe the Huns or the Scythians instead

I'll go with the Greeks

Read the OP. It's good for you.
EDIT: UNITIHU, read the post you're quoting. It's better for you.

CRAP. I meant Huns.

SUMER, the source of Egypt and Pun (Phoenicia), and subsequently all of western civilization
and the tower of Eridu/Babel was really awesome, too

Nope, that's considered awesome. I can't believe I forgot to include the Incas, please throw me in a corner and stone me to death.

*throws you in a corner and licks you to death*

Greeks because there stories are better than the cheap rip off Romans

SUMER, the source of Egypt and Pun (Phoenicia), and subsequently all of western civilization
and the tower of Eridu/Babel was really awesome, too

Order another stoning, please.

Phoenicians. They circumnavigated Africa, and their tombs are found as far away as Ireland.

Order another stoning, please.??

I know the best way to settle this.

One friggin' huge Ages of Empires tournament.

:D

I'm torn between Greece and Egypt.

Definitely Mongols, but they aren't really ancient...

I'm torn between Greece and Egypt.Greece was sparked by Egypt. Egypt was sparked by Greece. Greece was sparked by Egypt. Egypt was sparked by Greece. It's a little complicated indeed... ;)

I voted Egypt because the Mongols aren't ancient enough, and the Egyptians had the coolest stuff. You gotta love a civilization that built buildings so awesome that later people thought space aliens had to have done them.

Whoa, you completly left off ancient Japan, one of the best and most advanced ancient civilizations there is! While the Europeans were off fighting and not bathing, the Japanese invented a complex writing system, some beatiful weponry and buildings, bathed frequently, and now have some of the most advanced technology in the world! *Throws into corner and pushs several big boulders down on top of him*

Whoa, you completly left off ancient Japan, one of the best and most advanced ancient civilizations there is! While the Europeans were off fighting and not bathing, the Japanese invented a complex writing system, some beatiful weponry and buildings, bathed frequently, and now have some of the most advanced technology in the world! *Throws into corner and pushs several big boulders down on top of him*
Yeah, but it wasn't that cool until after the common era.

And someone please shoot me for putting Mongols instead of Huns.

AFAIK, Japan only started to become important after the VIII century. Greeks were making history far before that, and China had unified as a country quite before Jesus was even born.

For me, the coolest civilization were the Greeks. Ok, until about 1 year ago, I thought the Romans were cooler, but I just got to know a bit more about Greek history, culture and importance to the world.

The greeks were so awesome, now after 2000 years, we still see the Olympics every 4 years. We are watching the movie 300 on the movies. Greek mythology was and still is one of the most important, original and diverse of all times. And the level of development they reached in their prime was a marvel, considered the place they were at.

*Lifts up a giant rock* Ancient India. *Throws*

Rome. It brought to gether the awesomeness of the Greeks and the Egyptians, beat the Phoenicians and had diplomatic contact with nations as far away as China.

Not to mention being the guys who first created the modern soldier.

SUMER, the source of Egypt and Pun (Phoenicia), and subsequently all of western civilization
and the tower of Eridu/Babel was really awesome, too
Yep, that's the one I would've gone for. If it'd been in there.

*stares at UNITIHU* ;)

*Lifts up a giant rock* Ancient India. *Throws*
*blocks*
Does Magadha ring any bells?

Everybody always forgets the Hittites. :(

They were one of the first cultures - possibly the first - to use iron. They had the earliest recorded constitutional monarchy. And they had some kick-ass architecture; maybe it wasn't as refined as Greek architecture, but they built BIG. Just the size of the stones in the walls of a fortress would be enough to convince any invading army to pack up and go home.

:D

Everybody always forgets the Hittites. :(

They were one of the first cultures - possibly the first - to use iron. They had the earliest recorded constitutional monarchy. And they had some kick-ass architecture; maybe it wasn't as refined as Greek architecture, but they built BIG. Just the size of the stones in the walls of a fortress would be enough to convince any invading army to pack up and go home.

:D

I was thinking about the Hittites, if that counts for anything.

Everybody always forgets the Hittites. :(

They were one of the first cultures - possibly the first - to use iron. They had the earliest recorded constitutional monarchy. And they had some kick-ass architecture; maybe it wasn't as refined as Greek architecture, but they built BIG. Just the size of the stones in the walls of a fortress would be enough to convince any invading army to pack up and go home.

:D

They dont have movies.

*blocks*
Does Magadha ring any bells?

OK, Magadha is not a civilization. It is home to two great dynasties of Guptas and Mauryas but that does not warrant to assign "civilization" to them.

Vedic civilization would be the correct term.

OK, Magadha is not a civilization. It is home to two great dynasties of Guptas and Mauryas but that does not warrant to assign "civilization" to them.

Vedic civilization would be the correct term.

Eh, my knowladge on ancient India is limited to a thirty second wikipedia search. This thread fails.

The Huns date to well after the common period too, like 400-600, late 200s if you include their attacking China.

The Huns date to well after the common period too, like 400-600, late 200s if you include their attacking China.

Yep, it's official then. Let the stoning begin as I sulk in the corner.

Yep, it's official then. Let the stoning begin as I sulk in the corner.

*passes bong*

What, you said you wanted to be stoned.

If we are talking ancient, the only two continuing ancient civilizations are the Indians and the Chinese. Rest have been either obliterated or assimilated by other cultures/civs.

What is the point of awesomeness if it cannot even have continuity ?:p

So the winners are the Indians and Chinese. :D

If we are talking ancient, the only two continuing ancient civilizations are the Indians and the Chinese. Rest have been either obliterated or assimilated by other cultures/civs.

What is the point of awesomeness if it cannot even have continuity ?:p

So the winners are the Indians and Chinese. :D

Though to be fair, neither culture today is truly representative of their ancestors. One's a communist dictatorship, and the other's the world's largest democracy.

Though to be fair, neither culture today is truly representative of their ancestors. One's a communist dictatorship, and the other's the world's largest democracy.

Speaking for India, many cultural aspects are still continuing from ancient period, although not practiced by all. If you visit a temple, you would see the priests there chanting the same mantras and doing the same poojas as it was done thousands of years ago. If you go to Kumbmela, you can see the Dhigambr sadhus essentially being the same Dhigambrs of past millenniums. Certainly the mechanisms have changed but the principles/values have survived and if one choses to do so (and many do in varying degrees) one can certainly claim continuity to ancient India. And why is democracy incompatible with vedic/ancient Indian values?

A look at republicanism in ancient India
http://www.nipissingu.ca/department/history/muhlberger/histdem/indiadem.htm

It is not a miracle that India took to democracy so easily and naturally when every country around us and even in our extended neighborhood failed to do so and still have trouble being one.

Speaking for India, many cultural aspects are still continuing from ancient period, although not practiced by all. If you visit a temple, you would see the priests there chanting the same mantras and doing the same poojas as it was done thousands of years ago. If you go to Kumbmela, you can see the Dhigambr sadhus essentially being the same Dhigambrs of past millenniums. Certainly the mechanisms have changed but the principles/values have survived and if one choses to do so (and many do in varying degrees) one can certainly claim continuity to ancient India. And why is democracy incompatible with vedic/ancient Indian values?

A look at republicanism in ancient India
http://www.nipissingu.ca/department/history/muhlberger/histdem/indiadem.htm

It is not a miracle that India took to democracy so easily and naturally when every country around us and even in our extended neighborhood failed to do so and still have trouble being one.

My understanding was that India had largely been a series of fractured states ruled by local warlords and kings until the invasion and conquest by the Muslims. And then it quickly became a series of fractured states ruled by maharajas.

I know I'm almost 90% wrong, I really need to go back and refresh myself on Indian history.

And I'm supposed to be a Brahmin :rolleyes: Learned men my ass.

Edit: Lest you take offense, that was largely self-deprecation. I've never been fond of my status at the "top" of the caste system, and the elitism that that status has produced in a lot of the other Brahmins I've met.

And I'm supposed to be a Brahmin :rolleyes: Learned men my ass.

And I am supposedly a shudra :eek:

I am sure you must be knowing that, it is not your birth that decides your varna. It is your character. But in this age, we are all vaisyas anyways. We all trade something for something.

And I am supposedly a shudra :eek:

I am sure you must be knowing that, it is not your birth that decides your varna. It is your character. But in this age, we are all vaisyas anyways. We all trade something for something.

I agree, but I've always wished I was a kshatriya in ancient times. Those talvars are sharp!

And I am supposedly a shudra :eek:

I am sure you must be knowing that, it is not your birth that decides your varna. It is your character. But in this age, we are all vaisyas anyways. We all trade something for something.

Well I don't know about that. Even in the old days there was trade going on among the upper castes. I would imagine one who devotes his life to knowledge or faith and who was born a Brahmin might be considered a "true" Brahmin.

Although the Greeks are a close second, I gotta go with Rome.

Sure the greeks are the foundation of western thought, but the Romans were the engineers who took those plans and actually built something out of it. Although my favourite period is the republican period, the Imperial era was actually much more functional.

The Romans managed to unite the great majority of Europe and hold it for a long period of time, without the advent of modern technology. Roman roads brought economic prosperity and military efficiency throughout the empire. And we're talking about a people who were relatively uncontested (relatively) on the ancient battlefield until the advent of the stirrup. Just good old fashioned training, professionalism and hard work.

A language that is highly influential in modern thought, legal and political systems that influence our own, hell, if it weren't for the Romans, we probably wouldn't have a large Christian presence either. (Take that as you will.) And the greeks basically got a chance at the Roman helm with the Byzantine empire anyway. Basically a Greek empire forged out of the Roman one.


Honourable mention goes to the Incans for their similar use of roads, and wonderful mountain architecture!

If we are talking ancient, the only two continuing ancient civilizations are the Indians and the Chinese. Rest have been either obliterated or assimilated by other cultures/civs.

What is the point of awesomeness if it cannot even have continuity ?:p

So the winners are the Indians and Chinese. :D

Persia still exists.

Smaller, but still there.

We are watching the movie 300 on the movies.dont forget Alexander.
He achieved far.. (X 1000) far more then the so-called 300

If you want to put things in American context..

Alexander is Washington+Lincoln (rolled into one).

and the 300 are.. the guys at "The Alamo".

Pax Romana bitches.

dont forget Alexander.
He achieved far.. (X 1000) far more then the so-called 300

If you want to put things in American context..

Alexander is Washington+Lincoln (rolled into one).

and the 300 are.. the guys at "The Alamo".

Yes except that Washington + Lincoln didn't have gotten offed by a cold in their early twenties

Rome ftw.

I chose Greek although Rome is a close second. They're all good choices since we're still talking about them thousands of years later.

I think the Atlantian civilization was the most awsomest because obviously they were so advanced they figured out advanced space travel while the rest of us were barely figuring out the wheel and possibly fire. Thus they left Earth to make things fair, wiping out most traces of their civilization leaving only stories and rumors that have little to no basis in fact much like this entire post. The best part is, there's no proof I'm wrong either. there's no proof I'm right, but hey, that's the price I pay for living in a fantasy world, and I gladly pay it.

Otherwise based on the poll options, I'd have to go with China, since I read somewhere that they were the ones that brought civilization to Japan.

I voted Egypt because the Mongols aren't ancient enough, and the Egyptians had the coolest stuff. You gotta love a civilization that built buildings so awesome that later people thought space aliens had to have done them.corn circles? :eek: :D

The Romans, of course. They had architecture that was so far advanced, that only with the advent of CAD tools have we been able to duplicate it.

Along with their architecture, they had plumbing in houses/apartments (not to mention the massive public bath houses), efficient and effective city planning, outstanding sewage control, advanced medicine, and very liberal social policies at the time.

Basically, they took everything that was great about all of the other ancient peoples and combined these traits into something terrific that still has an effect on our world.

Poll coming soon. Options are:
Rome
Greek
Egypt
Persia
Mongol Horde (technically not a civilization, but they had a big enough effect on history that I figure we should include them)
Aztecs/Mayans (Yeah, I know. Deal.)
Magadha (Included for obscurity)
Chinese Dynasties
Phoenicia

All these are pre-common era,

Mongols are pre-common era? Huh?

Anyway, I'd say Roma. Written, civil code of laws. Republic. Trials with right to be defended by a lawyer. Occupied populations becoming citizens in a relatively short time. Infrastructures (roads, aqueducts, sewers), many of which still in good condition.

Also, Roma had an excellent idea: incorporating Greece and Egypt.

The Persians somewhat faded off when they confronted with Greece, because of their political system mainly. Despotism.

The best achievement of China, imho, is that they invented a meritocratic system to select the members of bureaucracy.

The Phoenicians... well, no Greece and no Roma without them. Is that enough?

minoen crete
mohenjo daro
maes how
newgrange
skara brea
anasazi
miwok,maidu,and washoe
western shoshone
paiute
hedonashi
le tene
tara umara
inu
maritime archaic
first khmeir
lhasa
pagani
nubia
dogon (yes they've been arround for a while)
sumarian
babalonian
serandip
pietra
and many many others, each in their own way.
but i would definately have to say minoen crete foremost of them all.
and probably mohenjo daro second for being, as far as i know, the first city-state.

=^^=
.../\...

Persia still exists.

Smaller, but still there.

They were totally overrun by Arabs and Zoroastrians are no longer the majority and in fact, there are instances of persecution in Iran.

They have become shia and are now more interested in proving how they are more islamic than arabs. :p

Even in the old days there was trade going on among the upper castes. I would imagine one who devotes his life to knowledge or faith and who was born a Brahmin might be considered a "true" Brahmin.

Birth has nothing to do with that. It is your character alone that decides your varna. Of course, actual practice degenerated over the ages, hence we have the rigid caste structure that we have now.

Being born in brahmin caste and being a brahmin are two different things. There are many qualities for a brahmin to be a brahmin. For ex, they are not supposed to earn for the next meal and can only eat from the alms given by others, or pick up grains fallen on the wayside and neglected by others. I can confidently say that 99.999999% of 'brahmins by caste' today are not brahmins.

On the other hand, the black mridanga player at the ISKCON temple nearby my house, is a brahmin. He lives in the temple, doesn't have any earning and has dedicated his life for teaching others about veda. Skin color, race, birth status are of no concern.

I think the Atlantian civilization was the most awsomest because obviously they were so advanced they figured out advanced space travel while the rest of us were barely figuring out the wheel and possibly fire. Thus they left Earth to make things fair, wiping out most traces of their civilization leaving only stories and rumors that have little to no basis in fact much like this entire post. The best part is, there's no proof I'm wrong either. there's no proof I'm right, but hey, that's the price I pay for living in a fantasy world, and I gladly pay it.

Otherwise based on the poll options, I'd have to go with China, since I read somewhere that they were the ones that brought civilization to Japan.

the real prototype for atlantus was minoen crete. differing in a few cosmetic details, but more nearly approaching its level of achievement then anything prior to the 20th century. no they didn't have anti-gravity either, but given another century or two they might have.

japans civilization, its legends and beliefs, evolved as much and more out of those of its ancestral inu. though emigrants from china and korea, and particularly the buddhists, ultimately from what is now india, tibet and nepal, brought the use of writing, including the kanji which came in their form from china, though japan gave them their own meaning.

what china did, besides comming up with a meritocratic baurocracy, is they also invented gun powder and even a way of using it. and of course making inroads into the herculean task of maintaining some sort of social order on a scale unimmaginable elsewhere in the ancient world.

=^^=
.../\...

If we are talking ancient, the only two continuing ancient civilizations are the Indians and the Chinese. Rest have been either obliterated or assimilated by other cultures/civs.

What is the point of awesomeness if it cannot even have continuity ?:p

So the winners are the Indians and Chinese. :D

What about the Greeks? They are still alive and well.

The Indians were dominated by quite a few enemies. Even Alexander. China was conquered by the Mongols and many other nations, even Japan. China in the XIX century was the lounge room of all the European powers, and India too.

the Maurya Empire or the Beaker People

I also heard that they sometimes had a llama perform a sacrifice (instead of being a sacrifice as usual). The victim? Jugs of beer.

What a sick and twisted waste of beer! :eek:

minoen crete
mohenjo daro
maes how
newgrange
skara brea
anasazi
miwok,maidu,and washoe
western shoshone
paiute
hedonashi
le tene
tara umara
inu
maritime archaic
first khmeir
lhasa
pagani
nubia
dogon (yes they've been arround for a while)
sumarian
babalonian
serandip
pietra
and many many others, each in their own way.
but i would definately have to say minoen crete foremost of them all.
and probably mohenjo daro second for being, as far as i know, the first city-state.

=^^=
.../\...

what's minoen crete ? "Minoans" were in fact Pelasgians, later replaced by Achaeans, later replaced by Dorians. The term "Minoan" is entirely academic (dubbed after legendary king Minos), in ancient times the word was unknown.

the Maurya Empire or the Beaker People

Dr Bunsen honeydew might agree with you about your second choice.

Rome was singularly awesome, even though they did basically stomp on all the people's they conquered in order to become great. (Then again, who didn't?)

China's great because even though they invented gunpowder, they never used it as a weapon. (And what's up with that, anyway? The Chinese go, "Oh, look, we just made something blow up. Let's make fireworks!" The Europeans, several centuries later go, "Oh, hey, we can make shit blow up! Let's go kill people." -siiigh-)

Cannons werent created in Europe.

Europe´s technology was quite stagnant in the middle ages. Most of it came from the East through trade and the silk rout.

Rome all the way ...

We wouldn't have half of what we have today if it wasn't for them. On top of doing everything that they did they were able to spread their creativity, langauge, culture and more through out most of the known western world and keep it there for centuries.

Of course the Romans were inspired and admired the Greeks a great deal and that is what they drew upon; though the Romans are the ones who carried on and expanded upon everything they loved from the Greeks.

And no I'm not prejudiced because I'm Italian, just proud :p

Cannons werent created in Europe.

Europe´s technology was quite stagnant in the middle ages. Most of it came from the East through trade and the silk rout.

Cannons werent created in Europe.

Europe´s technology was quite stagnant in the middle ages. Most of it came from the East through trade and the silk rout.

Don't think I'm having a go at you or anything, but on reading your post I suddenly flashed on a bunch of armed and armoured silkworms running in panic from an invading army...:D

Don't think I'm having a go at you or anything, but on reading your post I suddenly flashed on a bunch of armed and armoured silkworms running in panic from an invading army...:D LOVE. Yes, me too.

Anyway, I'd say Roma. Written, civil code of laws. Republic. Trials with right to be defended by a lawyer. Occupied populations becoming citizens in a relatively short time. Infrastructures (roads, aqueducts, sewers), many of which still in good condition.

Also, Roma had an excellent idea: incorporating Greece and Egypt.


Plus they had an annual ceremony where they'd crucify dogs and carry geese around on purple cushions.
You can't help admiring a nation that was utterly stark raving bonkers, and yet still achieved so much.

Rome; worst thing to happen to the world. Pietas, devotion to the Gods, modesty and rampant militarism.

Greece: I object to the Op's classifying Athens and Sparta, two disparate states in all regards, as "Greek".

However, I will personally go for either Ancient Athens, if only since their art and subtle imperialism is remarkable, or Phoenicia.

Everybody always forgets the Hittites. :(

Accomplishments: One of the first cultures, possibly the first, to use iron. And the world's first recorded constitutional monarchy.

And some seriously kick-ass architecture. It may not be as refined as that of Greece, or even Egypt, but it had a crude massiveness to it that I really like, for some reason. They had a thing for building with really big stones - the mere size of the stones in the wall of a fortress would be enough to make any invading army pack up and go home. :D

What about the Greeks? They are still alive and well.

The Indians were dominated by quite a few enemies. Even Alexander. China was conquered by the Mongols and many other nations, even Japan. China in the XIX century was the lounge room of all the European powers, and India too.

The point, which you seem to have missed :) , is that only the Indian and Chinese have retained enough parts of their civilizational traits to claim continuity.

Show me a Greek worshipping Zeus, living the way his ancestors lived. I can easily show you many hindus still following essentially the same principles and practices.

That India was politically dominated by various groups and still has retained its character is testimony to its inherent strength. Contrast that with Persia, Byzantine, the Americas etc.

Also, Alexander did not 'conquer' India. He merely scratched the surface and turned back. His 'victory' against India is essentially a western construct.

I'm in a mood, so I'm picking the Mongols (again).

Their attitude of "I'm going...that way. You're in my way? Sucks to be you." I just love.

Persians FTW!

They were totally overrun by Arabs and Zoroastrians are no longer the majority and in fact, there are instances of persecution in Iran.

They have become shia and are now more interested in proving how they are more islamic than arabs. :p

The Zoroastrians were the original inhabitants, and what the Arabs did to Persia could hardly be called overrunning. More like a decapitation, (taking out the top echelons and replacing them with their own puppets), much like what happened several times throughout Chinese and Indian history. In any case Persia is a completely continuous entity.

They were totally overrun by Arabs and Zoroastrians are no longer the majority and in fact, there are instances of persecution in Iran.

They have become shia and are now more interested in proving how they are more islamic than arabs. :p





Sadly true, however, the civilation struggles on even without the religion. Once we kick those damn Mullahs out we can start rebuilding the wreck it has become.

Spartans had the most awesome abs.

Don't think I'm having a go at you or anything, but on reading your post I suddenly flashed on a bunch of armed and armoured silkworms running in panic from an invading army...:D

"Ages of WORMS: New from Microsoft!"

I'm in AoE player so I'll base everything on that.

First choice for me would be Yamato, maybe Minoan.

As for the Poll.... Mmm, the Romans were always fun.

I'm saying Rome because I like the HBO show.

The point, which you seem to have missed :) , is that only the Indian and Chinese have retained enough parts of their civilizational traits to claim continuity.

Show me a Greek worshipping Zeus, living the way his ancestors lived. I can easily show you many hindus still following essentially the same principles and practices.

That India was politically dominated by various groups and still has retained its character is testimony to its inherent strength. Contrast that with Persia, Byzantine, the Americas etc.

Also, Alexander did not 'conquer' India. He merely scratched the surface and turned back. His 'victory' against India is essentially a western construct.

Actually, India is an amalgam of many cultures. It has taken some from Arabs, Persians, Chinese, Mongols and more recently, England and Portugal. The religion of India has changed over centuries as well. For instance, at one point India was almost entirely Buddhist. Modern Hinduism is also not practiced in the same way Ancient Hinduism was, and the Indo-Europeans mixed with the natives gradually over time to form a new race.

And besides, you said continuity. There is a very detailed history, which is continuity, of the Persians and Greeks. They made have changed their religion, but the use of their languages, as well as many cultural peculiarities that go back to ancient times, show continuity. Discontinuous history would in fact be something like the Galicians in Galicia, Spain. They claim a Celtic history, though most aspects of their culture are Latin, and their language is as well. They may well be Celts, but there is almost nothing left of that to identify them as such unless one examines very closely.

As much as I love Rome the Mayans were pretty awesome in their own rite (Egyptians too).

As much as I love Rome the Mayans were pretty awesome in their own rite (Egyptians too).
what rite? the sacrifices?

However, I will personally go for either Ancient Athens, if only since their art and subtle imperialism is remarkable.

So remarkable that they fucked up an agreement with Persia to blast Sparta, then whined for the Spartans' help, then fucked up again with Makedonia.
Guess what? In the end, they were overrun by the Makedonians.
And the Roman conquerors reported that Athens stank of piss and shit, because they didn't even have SEWERS. Yeech.
Roma >> Athinai. Not on original culture, maybe: but in civilization, without any doubt.

what's minoen crete ? "Minoans" were in fact Pelasgians, later replaced by Achaeans, later replaced by Dorians. The term "Minoan" is entirely academic (dubbed after legendary king Minos), in ancient times the word was unknown.

ha! great! ok, so you're smarter then me and have done more recent and better homework. if i had said pelasgian crete would anyone (other then yourself and a handful of ancient history scholars) have had the slightest idea what the hell i was talking about?

appearently you DO aggree that there were MUCH more interesting things going on, have been all along, then the conventionalist propiganda most of us are spoonfed in the guise of history.

=^^=
.../\...

Actually, India is an amalgam of many cultures. It has taken some from Arabs, Persians, Chinese, Mongols and more recently, England and Portugal.

You are exaggerating. Yes, there have been exchanges, but in many parts there is still continuity.

Arabs, Persians, England - yes.

Chinese - LOL. It was the Indians who exported Buddhism to China. Pray tell me what Chinese influence there is in India (other than the refugee Hakka Chinese who migrated to India during Opium wars).

Mongols - LOL. Mongols never ever entered India proper. They too merely scratched the surface.

Portuguese - LOL. They had a very small colony in Goa (and Diu, Daman). Their influence is limited to that area.

I guess you are setting up a strawman that I am arguing that India has preserved its culture as a whole as it was in 3000 BC. NO. That is not what I said.

The religion of India has changed over centuries as well. For instance, at one point India was almost entirely Buddhist.

Buddhism and Jainism are branches/daughters. In fact, Vaishnavism - the largest sect - considers Buddha as an avatar of Vishnu. I guess you did not know that. Not surprising.

Modern Hinduism is also not practiced in the same way Ancient Hinduism was

lol. Just so you know, I was brought up a hindu in India. I am not claiming that everybody practices it in the same way. That would be an absurd thing. You are again setting up strawmen. Read the words "the mechanism may have changed but the values and principles.....".

and the Indo-Europeans mixed with the natives gradually over time to form a new race.

BS. Indo-Europeans (Aryans) as a race, exists only in the imagination of idiots.

Greece. no contest.

Mongols - LOL. Mongols never ever entered India proper. They too merely scratched the surface.


Erm, the Mughals might disagree there. What's your interpretation of not scratching the surface?

China, we did build one huge dirty great wall around ourselves which sorta worked.

So remarkable that they fucked up an agreement with Persia to blast Sparta, then whined for the Spartans' help, then fucked up again with Makedonia.
Guess what? In the end, they were overrun by the Makedonians.
And the Roman conquerors reported that Athens stank of piss and shit, because they didn't even have SEWERS. Yeech.
Roma >> Athinai. Not on original culture, maybe: but in civilization, without any doubt.

However, the transmutation of the Delian League into empire was an act of subtlety beyond the capacities of bellicose Roman killing machines. Equally, transitory loyalties reflect more a political appreciation and desire to survive than any "weakness".

Now, allow me to make a point; Athens may not have had Sewers, nor dominated the mediterranean with quite the same degree of crude self-aggrandisement as Rome, however, the hellenised world was an infintely more appealing environment than that of Rome. Indeed, does a lack of Sewers counter the foundations of Western culture and academia?

ha! great! ok, so you're smarter then me and have done more recent and better homework. if i had said pelasgian crete would anyone (other then yourself and a handful of ancient history scholars) have had the slightest idea what the hell i was talking about?

appearently you DO aggree that there were MUCH more interesting things going on, have been all along, then the conventionalist propiganda most of us are spoonfed in the guise of history.It's not my fault that folks don't know whta pelasgian means. however, they can always look it up. if i come across anything on the forums here that i don't know about, i'll google for it or go to wikipedia.

and you are right, there is much "common knowledge" that has been taught in schools ever since the respective "discoveries" were made in the past 150 years (or so), but this knowledge is just utter crap, such as the entire egyptian chronology, which subsequently messed up all other depending chronologies, such as that of the hittites and ultimately the greek (with the whole idiotic theory of a greek dark age that was completely un-thought-of until scholars made the connection with the then (and unfortunately still) assumed egyptian chronology over 100 years ago).

So hard to choose just one...

I admire the ancient Mezoamerican civilizations because of their level of development and technology. There is an ancient road that runs from north to south along the entire length of South America that could support hundreds of tons of weight due to its construction methods.

I also like the ancient Greeks, although the Spartans are a particular favorite with their strength and utter defiance toward everyone around them. In terms of a purely military civilization, they get the gold star.

Ancient Egyptian architecture and building methods are fascinating to me as well.

But in choosing, I picked Rome. No other ancient culture has had as much of an impact on the world. Love it or hate it, Rome had a hand in shaping seemingly EVERYTHING. Every language that originates in Europe now has a mix of latin words and phrases in it, even if they're not Romance languages. It's where the Western world got its alphabet. Washington DC's public buildings are like a muesum of Roman architectural style. (Copied from the Greeks, true... but also expanded and improved upon) Planets are named after Roman gods (not the Greek names) and if you're a Christian you've seen at least one Roman device on an almost daily basis: The Cross.

Gotta hand it to those Romans... love 'em, hate 'em or care not... They knew how to leave a mark.

So hard to choose just one...

I admire the ancient Mezoamerican civilizations because of their level of development and technology. There is an ancient road that runs from north to south along the entire length of South America that could support hundreds of tons of weight due to its construction methods.

I also like the ancient Greeks, although the Spartans are a particular favorite with their strength and utter defiance toward everyone around them. In terms of a purely military civilization, they get the gold star.

Ancient Egyptian architecture and building methods are fascinating to me as well.

But in choosing, I picked Rome. No other ancient culture has had as much of an impact on the world. Love it or hate it, Rome had a hand in shaping seemingly EVERYTHING. Every language that originates in Europe now has a mix of latin words and phrases in it, even if they're not Romance languages. It's where the Western world got its alphabet. Washington DC's public buildings are like a muesum of Roman architectural style. (Copied from the Greeks, true... but also expanded and improved upon) Planets are named after Roman gods (not the Greek names) and if you're a Christian you've seen at least one Roman device on an almost daily basis: The Cross.

Gotta hand it to those Romans... love 'em, hate 'em or care not... They knew how to leave a mark.

True. They also had the largest empire too. I think. It may have been smashed to smithereens by The Huns, but it was the largest in history. Nowadays of course, it probably wouldn't be so big, thinking of Brazil, Canada and U.S.A. and of course Russia at the heighth of its glory.

AFAIK, Japan only started to become important after the VIII century. Greeks were making history far before that, and China had unified as a country quite before Jesus was even born.

For me, the coolest civilization were the Greeks. Ok, until about 1 year ago, I thought the Romans were cooler, but I just got to know a bit more about Greek history, culture and importance to the world.

The greeks were so awesome, now after 2000 years, we still see the Olympics every 4 years. We are watching the movie 300 on the movies. Greek mythology was and still is one of the most important, original and diverse of all times. And the level of development they reached in their prime was a marvel, considered the place they were at.

300 was a crap movie, so maybe not much of an accomplishment there.:).

Personally I have to say Rome, though Greece and China are right up there too. But I have a strange love of all things Roman so...

However, the transmutation of the Delian League into empire was an act of subtlety beyond the capacities of bellicose Roman killing machines. Equally, transitory loyalties reflect more a political appreciation and desire to survive than any "weakness".

Now, allow me to make a point; Athens may not have had Sewers, nor dominated the mediterranean with quite the same degree of crude self-aggrandisement as Rome, however, the hellenised world was an infintely more appealing environment than that of Rome. Indeed, does a lack of Sewers counter the foundations of Western culture and academia?

Bellicose Roman killing machines. I think that Cicero, Augustus, Marius, the Gracci brothers, etc. would have disagreed with you over your apparant oversimplification of Roman politics, and the political mind it required to manipulate such a system and stay alive (here the Gracci could tell you from experience, had they not been executed) was immense.

Regarding your points on the Heelanic world being an "infinintely more appealing environment," than Rome perhaps you might consider that Rome was at the same time the worlds largest city (over 1 million people), and the worlds first welfare state. They had public sewers, and public baths. The wealthy could have heated, and running water in their houses. Most importantly few Romans went hungary (because of it being the worlds first welfare state).

Now obviously it isnt the nicest place in the world, but when are cities that crowded ever that pretty. To be frank, its never fun to be poor, but I would rather be poor in Rome than Athens, and lets face it the majority of people were poor.

I'm not trying to say that the Athenians were not excellent in their own rite, but when it comes down to it I would much rather live in ancient Rome than ancient Athens. Obviously turning the Delian League into an Empire was a work of political genius, but so too was keeping the Republic as successful as it was, by establishing a number of client states (something that the Empire would never revert back to), to keep Rome from holding too much land than it could hold onto.

Mongoliaaaaaa!

Ahem.
THE MONGOLIAN HORDE!!

The Mongolian Horde approaches China...

Chinese: *middle finger* "Ha HA! Great Wall of China, motherfuckers, what are you going to do now?"

Mongols: *thinks*..."We'll go around it"

Chinese: "Barbarian FOOLS, you cannot go around the Great Wall of China, HA HA HA HA!...They can't actually go around it, can they?".

Mongols: " ".

Chinese: " ".

Mongols: " ".

Chinese: "O SHI-"

Mongols: *Sack Beijing*

Ahem.
THE MONGOLIAN HORDE!!

The Mongolian Horde approaches China...

Chinese: *middle finger* "Ha HA! Great Wall of China, motherfuckers, what are you going to do now?"

Mongols: *thinks*..."We'll go around it"

Chinese: "Barbarian FOOLS, you cannot go around the Great Wall of China, HA HA HA HA!...They can't actually go around it, can they?".

Mongols: " ".

Chinese: " ".

Mongols: " ".

Chinese: "O SHI-"

Mongols: *Sack Beijing*

Such a shame they couldn't hold onto their Empire for very long though isnt it;).

That India was politically dominated by various groups and still has retained its character is testimony to its inherent strength. Contrast that with Persia, Byzantine, the Americas etc.

Well, there are still many Greeks in Istanbul who attend the (very old) Eastern Orthodox churches throughout the city. Also remember that there are many Eastern Orthodox churches throughout Greece itself. Keep in mind that the biggest part of Byzantine culture was its religion... That's not to say that there weren't other parts of it (food, sport, music, etc.).

So no, Byzantine culture isn't exactly "dead", per se. It's just very dim compared to what it used to be. Same with the cultures of Native American tribes. Though they drive cars, use computers, and watch television like the rest of the modern world, they still practice their centuries-old traditions as they always have. Just go to any reservation (or any small town in New Mexico) and see for yourself.

In short, look before you leap. :p

Erm, the Mughals might disagree there. What's your interpretation of not scratching the surface?

Mughals were not Mongols although they claim to be derived from them. Babar claimed to be a descendant of Timur Lane who claimed to be a descendant of Chengiz Khan.

Anyways, the Mughals took Indian wives (of local rulers)and most of them were assimilated into Indian culture...especially Akbar and except Aurangzeb.

Proper mongol armies never crossed Punjab into the Gangetic plains. 'Surface' would be the border areas (which are now Pakistan).

Well, there are still many Greeks in Istanbul who attend the (very old) Eastern Orthodox churches throughout the city.

Not temples for Zues though. :p

Just go to any reservation (or any small town in New Mexico) and see for yourself.

That's the point. They are in reservations.


In short, look before you leap. :p

I am sure we can argue back and forth all day long and still come up with contrasting (but still valid when viewed from other perspectives)....it is the vague nature of the topic...I agree that I should not have used absolute sounding words in my posts in this topic. :)

Mughals were not Mongols although they claim to be derived from them. Babar claimed to be a descendant of Timur Lane who claimed to be a descendant of Chengiz Khan.
I know, but you could say the same about Kublai in China - they weren't real Mongols - but I'd rather not go down that path.

Anyways, the Mughals took Indian wives (of local rulers)and most of them were assimilated into Indian culture...especially Akbar and except Aurangzeb.
I know. I would personally take the Mughals into account as part of the Mongolian 'empire' at least in the beginning. But I see where you're coming from alright.

Proper mongol armies never crossed Punjab into the Gangetic plains. 'Surface' would be the border areas (which are now Pakistan).
I get you now.