NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/nz-australia-should-consider-merger/2006/12/04/1165080875361.html
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/push-for-union-with-new-zealand/2006/12/04/1165080877899.html

Not really, but it has been suggested that the two nations seek closer ties politically and economically. Although this story is a little old I wouldn't mind to discover the opinions of NSG Australians and New Zealanders on this issue. I don't know exactly how it would work, but my guess is, we both have a similar system in Westminster. I guess the federal govts of both countries could merge, and the states of Australia and NZ would just merge.

We've got an open slot in our constitution for you to become a territory anyday...

good i can have a go at them and the east coast

Nah. New Zealand's interests wouldn't be served in a political union with Australia. The most I would support would be a common market.

Oh jesus, you scared me. I thought the AUD$s in my pocket had just halved in value. *phew*

Anyhow. No. Well, yes and no. New Zealand is a something of an autonomous semi-state of Australia in all but name anyhow. It would cause only needless problems to officialise a union, without considerable benefit (seeing as we share most of the benefits of a domestic union as it is. I'd say 70%ish percent). We can come and go more-or-less freely. We have only minor hurdles facing naturalisation in either directions (though admittedly increased of late, still not terribly difficult in comparison to the rest of the world). Hell, New Zealand has long been known as the most popular 'back door' into Australia for immigrants 9ever since the current admin decided that immigrants were evil (though again, the ease of this has been somewhat reduced). New Zealand is a famous defence freeloader of Australia, just as Australia is a famous defence freeloader of USA. If NZ were to come under threat, the US would save their arses because of their commitment to Australia. I suppose you could say NZ is part of the package. Even despite the mild antagonism received by the US from NZ (and likewise, Antartica anyone?).

All in all there are several minor reasons not to unite, and no reasons supporting a union to counter this. We would only gain what we already have (them too) and it would cost us a lot to do it. Incidentally, New Zealand was initially to be incorporated into Australia anyhow, but they refused on the grounds of our poor treatment of our Aboriginals, and that we were a nation of convicts, whereas they were a nation of expats.

i don't really ever see it happening, though I can see a near total integration in all but name. Maybe. One day. If we feel like it. And there is free sex and beer. For both parties. Still, even then probably not.

Nah. New Zealand's interests wouldn't be served in a political union with Australia. The most I would support would be a common market.
bingo. Let them keep their irrelevant autonomy (purely because of the shit fight that would occur if they lost it), and just integrate them fully economically. In time the government of NZ would become even more 'token' than it is.

We've got an open slot in our constitution for you to become a territory anyday...
This is true. I believe it specifies such in words, not just inference. 'New Zealand can join anytime they please'.

Well I believe a big argument for a union would be that with combined population, military and economic interests that we would be more relevant and influential as a regional power, considering Indonesia and China.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/nz-australia-should-consider-merger/2006/12/04/1165080875361.html
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/push-for-union-with-new-zealand/2006/12/04/1165080877899.html

Not really, but it has been suggested that the two nations seek closer ties politically and economically. Although this story is a little old I wouldn't mind to discover the opinions of NSG Australians and New Zealanders on this issue. I don't know exactly how it would work, but my guess is, we both have a similar system in Westminster. I guess the federal govts of both countries could merge, and the states of Australia and NZ would just merge.

...

Okay, you know what? These fake news titles are beginning to piss me off. I know it's just so you can attract more attention to the thread, but couldn't you have just phrased it as "What if" instead of phrasing it as it is so you stop confusing me?!

If Australia and New Zealand want to join up, that's fine with me. Might make more sense given their relative close positions, similiar culture, as well as make it easier for both to defend themselves and each other.

...

Okay, you know what? These fake news titles are beginning to piss me off. I know it's just so you can attract more attention to the thread, but couldn't you have just phrased it as "What if" instead of phrasing it as it is so you stop confusing me?!

If Australia and New Zealand want to join up, that's fine with me. Might make more sense given their relative close positions, similiar culture, as well as make it easier for both to defend themselves and each other.

You didn't think Australia would really do something like that would you? It mean it would be like if the US just suddenly invaded Canada without reason.

I do not support any such union.

You didn't think Australia would really do something like that would you? It mean it would be like if the US just suddenly invaded Canada without reason.

Yes, well...that doesn't mean anything...I'll still believe something like that at first. I'm gullible.

Well I believe a big argument for a union would be that with combined population, military and economic interests that we would be more relevant and influential as a regional power, considering Indonesia and China.
Pshh. NZ has what? 4million all up? Australia 20million. Together we could unite our virtually nonexistant military (40,000 Australian, a hell of a lot less NZ i expect), and population (to a grand total of 25million, the population of 1 chinese city). Woot.

Excuse me for my lack of enthusiasm. If we are to become regional powers we need to either a) conscript women into pregnancy camps or b) release our ultra tight grip on immigration. One of the options doesn't breach the geneva convention.

Pshh. NZ has what? 4million all up? Australia 20million. Together we could unite our virtually nonexistant military (40,000 Australian, a hell of a lot less NZ i expect), and population (to a grand total of 25million, the population of 1 chinese city). Woot.

Excuse me for my lack of enthusiasm. If we are to become regional powers we need to either a) conscript women into pregnancy camps or b) release our ultra tight grip on immigration. One of the options doesn't breach the geneva convention.

geneva convention is to do with war and all the stuff that goes with it

It found a referendum to change the constitution may be needed for the Federal Government to harmonise legislation. This iagree with. We need an actual constitution. You know, one that mentions the prime minister. Or that actually bears any relevance to the government of Australia as it stands.

...

Okay, you know what? These fake news titles are beginning to piss me off. I know it's just so you can attract more attention to the thread, but couldn't you have just phrased it as "What if" instead of phrasing it as it is so you stop confusing me?!

If Australia and New Zealand want to join up, that's fine with me. Might make more sense given their relative close positions, similiar culture, as well as make it easier for both to defend themselves and each other.
C'mon you pinko. you just want NZ's left influenc e in politics, don't you? yeah.. i'm on to you... *eyeballs*

geneva convention is to do with war and all the stuff that goes with it
Right, so the conscription of civilian women into pregnancy camps is done by the military.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/nz-australia-should-consider-merger/2006/12/04/1165080875361.html
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/push-for-union-with-new-zealand/2006/12/04/1165080877899.html

Not really, but it has been suggested that the two nations seek closer ties politically and economically. Although this story is a little old I wouldn't mind to discover the opinions of NSG Australians and New Zealanders on this issue. I don't know exactly how it would work, but my guess is, we both have a similar system in Westminster. I guess the federal govts of both countries could merge, and the states of Australia and NZ would just merge.
Pfft, we already own the West Island.

I have two words

(expletive deleted) off.

New Zealand will never never never be part of Australia. Fundamentally, there would be many things that we here cannot accept. First off, politically, there was one big fight to get proportional representation here and I don't think that Kiwis really want to sacrifice proportional representation and go back to FPP. Also, I think that many Conservatives across the ditch will not like the idea of our hordes switching Australia from Liberal country to Labor country. Also, I would not want to give up my chance of rubbing it in when we win every single cup under the sun, hehehe.

C'mon you pinko. you just want NZ's left influenc e in politics, don't you? yeah.. i'm on to you... *eyeballs*

Because clearly as a citizen of the United States I'm especially educated on Australian and New Zealand...(New Zealandian?) politics.

...okay, all joking aside, what's the term for citizens of New Zealand, other than the joking term Kiwi?

Right, so the conscription of civilian women into pregnancy camps is done by the military.

the one's we have in power more like to sell it to some civilian business so they don't have to pay more to the troops

I have two words

(expletive deleted) off.

New Zealand will never never never be part of Australia. Fundamentally, there would be many things that we here cannot accept. First off, politically, there was one big fight to get proportional representation here and I don't think that Kiwis really want to sacrifice proportional representation and go back to FPP. Also, I think that many Conservatives across the ditch will not like the idea of our hordes switching Australia from Liberal country to Labor country. Also, I would not want to give up my chance of rubbing it in when we win every single cup under the sun, hehehe.
See thats what I mean. If you wanted to fully and officially unite NZ and AUS, you'd get a lot of that ^

Instead, it would be better to try and streamline them economically and perhaps legally, and let them have their token autonomy. As if NZ wouldn't want AUD$s anyway.

We're slowly annexing Australia. We already have bondi beach, and we're moving towards the city.

...okay, all joking aside, what's the term for citizens of New Zealand, other than the joking term Kiwi?

New Zealander, although Kiwi is not a joking term - we use it to refer to ourselves as well.

Because clearly as a citizen of the United States I'm especially educated on Australian and New Zealand...(New Zealandian?) politics.

...okay, all joking aside, what's the term for citizens of New Zealand, other than the joking term Kiwi?
Kiwis. They call them selves kiwis, and we call them that non-jokingly. If we want to joke we call them 'sheep-shaggers'. Otherwise it is 'New Zealanders', but nobody uses that. If you wanted to be original i suppose you could call them Aotearoans.

the one's we have in power more like to sell it to some civilian business so they don't have to pay more to the troops
this is true, we massively privatised our defence force. At first i thought it was a bad thing, but now i have come around. Why pay more for a military guy to do pointless admin and unskilled labour. Better to let them go and do whatever it is that they are supposed to be training for.

Apart from the army cooks, who got the blunt end of that stick.

It would be just like Canada allowing itself to be annexed by the USA: politically impossible on both sides with little benefit to either.

New Zealander, although Kiwi is not a joking term - we use it to refer to ourselves as well.
Oh, okay. That's what I thought...I simply forgot for a moment.

If you wanted to be original i suppose you could call them Aotearoans.

Aotearoans? Does that term originate from the original natives of New Zealand?

It would be just like Canada allowing itself by the USA: politically impossible on both sides with little benefit to either.
Another bingo.

Aotearoans? Does that term originate from the original natives of New Zealand?
the Maoris. Yes.

this is true, we massively privatised our defence force. At first i thought it was a bad thing, but now i have come around. Why pay more for a military guy to do pointless admin and unskilled labour. Better to let them go and do whatever it is that they are supposed to be training for.

Apart from the army cooks, who got the blunt end of that stick.

watch what you say about the cooks
your caming back from being in the field you be happy for them to cook you hot food

What with all this talk about NZ becoming part of Australia anyway? It makes sense to me, as New Zealand is much better in everyway, for Australia to become part of New Zealand. We all know that's what Australians really want, so they will have to ask nicely if they want us to let them in.

What with all this talk about NZ becoming part of Australia anyway? It makes sense to me, as New Zealand is much better in everyway, for Australia to become part of New Zealand. We all know that's what Australians really want, so they will have to ask nicely if they want us to let them in.
Brilliant! That reminded me of when the Monster Raving Loony Party invited the eurozone to join the Pound Sterling.:D

What with all this talk about NZ becoming part of Australia anyway? It makes sense to me, as New Zealand is much better in everyway, for Australia to become part of New Zealand. We all know that's what Australians really want, so they will have to ask nicely if they want us to let them in.

WTF are you smoking

WTF are you smoking
Reality.
NZ>Oz

watch what you say about the cooks
your caming back from being in the field you be happy for them to cook you hot food
Have you eaten army food? Furthermore, you do realise that when you are coming back from out bush, shit on a stick tastes nice. Military cooks are an 'odd-bod' unit which doesn't really have a use, but isn't totally indispensable. I mean, nothing the cooks do now in Australia (operate the messes) cannot be done by civilian staff (indeed, as I recall they have staffed all messes with civilians and sent all of the remaining cooks to Darwin to try and sweat them out of the corps). However, if and when we need to run messes in a warzone, civilians will not do. I personally think they should shut them down and delegate their job to the infantry corps themselves. Or perhaps some other group with nothing to do (it's the public service, and there is no shortage of that).

Reality.
NZ>Oz

in your dreams

Have you eaten army food? Furthermore, you do realise that when you are coming back from out bush, shit on a stick tastes nice. Military cooks are an 'odd-bod' unit which doesn't really have a use, but isn't totally indispensable. I mean, nothing the cooks do now in Australia (operate the messes) cannot be done by civilian staff (indeed, as I recall they have staffed all messes with civilians and sent all of the remaining cooks to Darwin to try and sweat them out of the corps). However, if and when we need to run messes in a warzone, civilians will not do. I personally think they should shut them down and delegate their job to the infantry corps themselves. Or perhaps some other group with nothing to do (it's the public service, and there is no shortage of that).

in a war you can't have civilian's cooking for can you

in a war you can't have civilian's cooking for can you
Right. Thats what i said. I also said the Army cooks are useless, and that their role should be delegated to another corps.

Right. Thats what i said. I also said the Army cooks are useless, and that their role should be delegated to another corps.

not the tankers they just as nuts

not the tankers they just as nuts
If my shirt was yellow prefer you would custardlike?

What with all this talk about NZ becoming part of Australia anyway? It makes sense to me, as New Zealand is much better in everyway, for Australia to become part of New Zealand. We all know that's what Australians really want, so they will have to ask nicely if they want us to let them in.

The City Loop tram driver in Christchurch always says that the old Canterbury Provincial Buildings were kept for when New Zealand grabbed Australia, you know to give them the allusion of democracy, in spite of the fact that there will be a ten to one quota in far of us New Zealanders.

Anyways, as someone else said, we are slowly pinching the good stuff. If we can annex the Gold Coast and Bondi Beach, then I suppose we can call it quits with the rest of the country; anyways, all it is is dry useless land - we don't need anymore farm land, got enough of our own.

in your dreams
Reality-_-

Nah, let the Kiwis keep their own little country. If we let them join us, they'd just whinge non-stop about it. :p

That is just stupid. Australia and New Zealand might want to move closer (although politically, no), but annexation? No one would stand for that.

(Also, no such thing as a 'federal' government of NZ)

EDIT: referring to OP

geneva convention is to do with war and all the stuff that goes with it

You don't think there will be war when trying to conscript women into pregnancy camps?

You don't think there will be war when trying to conscript women into pregnancy camps?

did you read what i was pointing out

did you read what i was pointing out

yes, I was just joking. I forgot to add the smiley (;) )

yes, I was just joking. I forgot to add the smiley (;) )

but you are right would a war happen ,would some one land troops to stop that from happening

but you are right would a war happen ,would some one land troops to stop that from happening
China/Indonesia to the rescue! They'll take a firm stance on the protection of human rights in Australia!

... or not. Hey, we can do whatever we want! :p

China/Indonesia to the rescue! They'll take a firm stance on the protection of human rights in Australia!

... or not. Hey, we can do whatever we want! :p

China just buy more of Australia

It found the two countries had a uniquely close relationship stemming from New Zealand being one of seven colonies of Australasia prior to federation in 1901.


New Zealand was, actually, officially part of NSW for a very short while (1840-42? I may be wrong on the dates). NZ was offered a place in Federation in 1901, but declined. One of the reasons they invoked to refuse, interestingly enough, was concerns that Maori would be ill-treated by Australians (i.e., treated the same way as Aboriginals).

Australia would have to change their constitution to do it, too. We'd have to acknowledge the Treaty of Waitangi.

And how long would it take for the Aborigines to jump on the bandwagon and demand the same political rights? What works for a population of 4 million and a significant minority is NOT going to work for 20 million and an insignificant minority.

If we are to become regional powers we need to either a) conscript women into pregnancy camps or b) release our ultra tight grip on immigration. One of the options doesn't breach the geneva convention.

Release your ultra tight grip on immagration, send the women to pregnancy camps and invite me over :p .

At least I could say that I'd helped to populate an entire country then :D

good i can have a go at them and the east coast

Just because you have the aluminium, iron and gold you think you can be all hoity-toity :) . *Stops shovelling fuel onto West Australian secession sentiments*. Hmmm you have major bank head offices there....

Just like South Australia and its uranium reserves.....

Well I believe a big argument for a union would be that with combined population, military and economic interests that we would be more relevant and influential as a regional power, considering Indonesia and China.

That is where our opinions differ. A total union with Aus and NZ, then a heavily intergrated series of trade and security pacts with Indnonesia, Papua new Guinea and hopefully Malaysia (non likely though). That would certainly create a bloc which would prevent the south east asian areas from becoming a sigular bloc with the middle asian areas.

We could always just let in the one with all the money... you know, Auckland *prepare to have stuff thrown by all non Aucklander NZ people*

...okay, all joking aside, what's the term for citizens of New Zealand, other than the joking term Kiwi?

A certain lolly that is used to reference people that come from the most populous city in NZ?

Reality.
NZ>Oz

You just had to unleash the latent nationalism didn't you.

You don't think there will be war when trying to conscript women into pregnancy camps?

Would a modern war last 12+ years?

New Zealand was, actually, officially part of NSW for a very short while (1840-42? I may be wrong on the dates). NZ was offered a place in Federation in 1901, but declined. One of the reasons they invoked to refuse, interestingly enough, was concerns that Maori would be ill-treated by Australians (i.e., treated the same way as Aboriginals).

Wasn't it also because it would have taken so long to launch a counter-assault if NZ was invaded?

Just because you have the aluminium, iron and gold you think you can be all hoity-toity :) . *Stops shovelling fuel onto West Australian secession sentiments*. Hmmm you have major bank head offices there....

Just like South Australia and its uranium reserves.....

you lot where having ago at us way before we find out we had all that stuff

you lot where having ago at us way before we find out we had all that stuff

At least we all know that 'Dear Leader' Howard is taking steps to prevent WA secession (by trying to centralise state powers).

At least we all know that 'Dear Leader' Howard is taking steps to prevent WA secession (by trying to centralise state powers).

an NSW not crying about

an NSW not crying about

Eh?

Eh?

left it out when i got called to see someone at the door

you know how NSW all ways think they have more power then all of us

We could always just let in the one with all the money... you know, Auckland *prepare to have stuff thrown by all non Aucklander NZ people*


Again, I say two words

(expletive deleted) off.

The non Aucklanders would probably celebrate, they have issues with our neck of the woods, in spite of the fact that if we suddenly disappeared, the New Zealand economy would disappear.

New Zealand was, actually, officially part of NSW for a very short while (1840-42? I may be wrong on the dates). NZ was offered a place in Federation in 1901, but declined. One of the reasons they invoked to refuse, interestingly enough, was concerns that Maori would be ill-treated by Australians (i.e., treated the same way as Aboriginals).

From what I have heard, there were several reasons for New Zealand to reject federation.

Primarily, patriotism had been on the increase since the Boer War had started, and us New Zealanders began to get a sense of identity - the popularity of federation would have been low

Also, at the time, the Premier, Richard John Seddon (a.k.a. King Dick Seddon) was one of the earliest patriots. He believed that New Zealand had a position to fill in the South Pacific, and he hoped that New Zealand would become the Britain of the South Pacific with its own mini-empire.

you know how NSW all ways think they have more power then all of us

Yeah, that has been some complaints from here that the federal government is hampering Victoria getting it's own major international carrier airport set up.

I guess their superiorority complex comes from having the largest economy and population. Yet that doesn't stop them from saying they haven't been getting their 'fair' share of the GST money (along with Victoria sad to say) even though they should kno that GST is merely a way to create a more unitarian country.

I feel the sorriest for NT though, not even a statoid......

I wonder what Australians think about greater pacts and treaties between PNG and Indonesia?

Yeah, that has been some complaints from here that the federal government is hampering Victoria getting it's own major international carrier airport set up.

I guess their superiorority complex comes from having the largest economy and population. Yet that doesn't stop them from saying they haven't been getting their 'fair' share of the GST money (along with Victoria sad to say) even though they should kno that GST is merely a way to create a more unitarian country.

I feel the sorriest for NT though, not even a statoid......

I wonder what Australians think about greater pacts and treaties between PNG and Indonesia?

they get more of there fair share of the GST then we do

treatie PNG don't know what to say on that one
but the one with Indonesia the ones we all most went to war with over East Timor set fire to it now

Again, I say two words

(expletive deleted) off.

The non Aucklanders would probably celebrate, they have issues with our neck of the woods, in spite of the fact that if we suddenly disappeared, the New Zealand economy would disappear.

And Norfolk Island would lose about 99% of all imported goods. I'm sure NZ could quickly go back to an agrarian society.

From what I have heard, there were several reasons for New Zealand to reject federation.

Primarily, patriotism had been on the increase since the Boer War had started, and us New Zealanders began to get a sense of identity - the popularity of federation would have been low

Also, at the time, the Premier, Richard John Seddon (a.k.a. King Dick Seddon) was one of the earliest patriots. He believed that New Zealand had a position to fill in the South Pacific, and he hoped that New Zealand would become the Britain of the South Pacific with its own mini-empire.

Well you would know more. Too bad Australia beat you to the punch at setting up a quasi-empire.

they get more of there fair share of the GST then we do

treaty PNG don't know what to say on that one
but the one with Indonesia the ones we all most went to war with over East Timor set fire to it now

I'd support greater GST payment to the other states that seem to be the future of the Australian economy, such as WA and SA (for greater uranium exports, which I don't support)

The funny thing is what we did to East Timor after their secession. We took a major amount of oil and natural gas by extending our maritime borders (after removing ourselves from a maritmime organisation that could exert consequences if Australia did what it did).

That was also a bribe to prevent Australia from intervening with Indonesia and East Timor before the populace of Australia acrually knew what was going on in East Timor.

Main thing is that treaty was established with a much more authoritarian government that was more hostile to Australia's opinion. If there was a bit of work put into a treaty framework it could become a bit like Turkey's reforms so that it could join the E.U.

I'd support greater GST payment to the other states that seem to be the future of the Australian economy, such as WA and SA (for greater uranium exports, which I don't support)

The funny thing is what we did to East Timor after their secession. We took a major amount of oil and natural gas by extending our maritime borders (after removing ourselves from a maritmime organisation that could exert consequences if Australia did what it did).

That was also a bribe to prevent Australia from intervening with Indonesia and East Timor before the populace of Australia acrually knew what was going on in East Timor.

Main thing is that treaty was established with a much more authoritarian government that was more hostile to Australia's opinion. If there was a bit of work put into a treaty framework it could become a bit like Turkey's reforms so that it could join the E.U.

we give shit loads of GST and get little back of it

oil and natural gas should have been work out so both Nations got a good amout of the money for it

i think they will all ways be hostile to us

Also, at the time, the Premier, Richard John Seddon (a.k.a. King Dick Seddon) was one of the earliest patriots. He believed that New Zealand had a position to fill in the South Pacific, and he hoped that New Zealand would become the Britain of the South Pacific with its own mini-empire.

Spot on. That was actually a major aspect of my Master 2 ("pre-doctoral mini-thesis"). I used the word "mini Empire" too, although it's the first time I've seen anyone else use it. New Zealand's first ventures into colonisation (Niue, Cook Islands) happened at the same time as Australia's federation. It's nice to see people know about that.

Well I believe a big argument for a union would be that with combined population, military and economic interests that we would be more relevant and influential as a regional power, considering Indonesia and China.

New Zealand has an army? Maori spearmen?

New Zealand has an army? Maori spearmen?

Does the word "ANZAC" mean nothing to you? :p

Does the word "ANZAC" mean nothing to you? :p

Yes... ANZAC biscuits... yum.

we give shit loads of GST and get little back of it

Per capita?

Oil and natural gas should have been work out so both Nations got a good amout of the money for it

Why? It is their oil and natural gas. Australia was given it by the Indonesians but the deal should have been void.

I think they will all ways be hostile to us

That is quite a large part of the reason as to why there is not greater co-operation; due to belief on both sides theat the other will never stop being hostile.

It is also that belief that allows and will allow other countries to manipulate them (us if you are part of Australia or Indonesia).

Does the word "ANZAC" mean nothing to you? :p

Too bad you have no nuclear subs in any of your ports, then you'd also have ANZUS.

Then again: Good for you that you do not have nuclear subs in any of your ports!

Does the word "ANZAC" mean nothing to you? :p

should be AnzAC the way they keep making there forces smaller

[QUOTE=Imperial isa;12451938]we give shit loads of GST and get little back of it

Per capita?

[QUOTE=Imperial isa;12451938]Oil and natural gas should have been work out so both Nations got a good amout of the money for it

Why? It is their oil and natural gas. Australia was given it by the Indonesians but the deal should have been void.

no apart of it was in our waters before that line was moved so we get more of it

and the ANZUS is just AUS i think as do you ever hear that US froces are stopping by NZ

Too bad you have no nuclear subs in any of your ports, then you it be ANZUS.

Then again: Good for you that you do not have nuclear subs in any of your ports!

Don't look at me; I'm not a New Zealander. Although I approve NZ's position on this issue (and the Treaty of Rarotonga in general).


and the ANZUS is just AUS i think as do you ever hear that US froces are stopping by NZ

The "NZUS" part of it was broken when NZ barred nuclear vessels from its ports.

Per capita?

I mean is there less GST money per capita being reimbursed?

No apart of it was in our waters before that line was moved so we get more of it

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200601/s1548614.htm
http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=33714 (Contains a large part of the history surrounding the issue).

Considering that most of it lies nearer to East Timor and that normal international maritime borders would place it within the realm of East Timor I think it should belong to them. Australia's 'joint efforts' which whilst seem fair in a 50/50 split (which is only applies to the joint area, which is a minority of the reserve) they should be given a greater revenue amount.

and the ANZUS is just AUS i think as do you ever hear that US froces are stopping by NZ

I was joking because NZ helped to cause the ANZUS treaty system to fail. Rightly so.

I mean is there less GST money per capita being reimbursed?



http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200601/s1548614.htm
http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=33714 (Contains a large part of the history surrounding the issue).

Considering that most of it lies nearer to East Timor and that normal international maritime borders would place it within the realm of East Timor I think it should belong to them. Australia's 'joint efforts' which whilst seem fair in a 50/50 split (which is only applies to the joint area, which is a minority of the reserve) they should be given a greater revenue amount.



I was joking because NZ helped to cause the ANZUS treaty system to fail. Rightly so.

per capita was you asking me but i left it out as i had know what went wrong there

but from what i heard of it yes we give more then we get back

60/40 60 for them, 40 for us for oil and gas

dam right they did

Per capita was you asking me but i left it out as i had know what went wrong there,

but from what i heard of it yes we give more then we get back.

The real question is what is that money going towards?

60/40 60 for them, 40 for us for oil and gas.

I would prefer 80 for them, 20 for us and the cost of the equipment acting as a loan (if they require construction efforts)

Dam right they did

Do you think that was a good thing or a bad thing?

Don't look at me; I'm not a New Zealander. Although I approve NZ's position on this issue (and the Treaty of Rarotonga in general).

Whoops, forgot to look at the location tag.

Well you do have a modern link with NZ *looks at the french agents scuttling a greenpeace boat/ship* that was a bad mark on history.... *then notices majority of french population despising the act* good for them :) .

I wonder what Australians think about greater pacts and treaties between PNG and Indonesia?
Hell fucking no.
PNG we already did half a century ago. it wasn't pretty and we wisely cast them off into 'autonomy'. We do not want that self-perpetuating third-world economic sinkhole dragging off our coat. I cannot for the life of me think of a viable solution to the PNG economy, not with won tok, not with the current despicably corrupt government, not with the broken remanants of what was once a socio-economic infrastructure all over the floor.

Indonesia is to unstable to incoporate, and wouldn't let us if we begged them. They know they are going to outpace China if they get their shit together, and they are. Indonesia we should definitely get much much much closer to than we are (thanks to dickface Howard). We need to be their biggest and best buddy in all of Asia. We want to be the UK to their USA.

Hell fucking no.
PNG we already did half a century ago. it wasn't pretty and we wisely cast them off into 'autonomy'. We do not want that self-perpetuating third-world economic sinkhole dragging off our coat. I cannot for the life of me think of a viable solution to the PNG economy, not with won tok, not with the current despicably corrupt government, not with the broken remanants of what was once a socio-economic infrastructure all over the floor.

Part of the problem was that we ran it like Britain did with its colonies. We don't need to take them over, just give incentives for political changes and garner goodwill by allowing a massive investment to reduce the HIV epidemic.

PNG if given enough care will emerge as a very useful neighbour. Their main problem is corruption and lack of political unity across the country. This allows rather inefficient businesses to spring up and take advantage of the natural resources. This also prevents a long term economy from taking hold (which would benefit Australia far more than the way the existing PNG economy works now).

Indonesia is to unstable to incoporate, and wouldn't let us if we begged them. They know they are going to outpace China if they get their shit together, and they are. Indonesia we should definitely get much much much closer to than we are (thanks to dickface Howard). We need to be their biggest and best buddy in all of Asia. We want to be the UK to their USA.

I would prefer a South east asian bloc to counter the middle asian and northern asian bloc emerging.

Howard probably would prefer the more authoritarian Indonesian government that existed beforehand; It would have allowed him to have his very own 'red scare'.

Indonesia would more than likely work hard to get in a comprehensive economic and military treaty (not union, neither country would be ready for that). Howard would not support that as he only wants to be in the various conferences (like ASEAN) just to keep Australia in the 'intimidating the weaker parties' role.

New Zealand is a something of an autonomous semi-state of Australia in all but name anyhow.

Erm. No.

Erm. No.

All I have to do is look at your location and now that NZ defines itself in relation to Australia.

We're like the Bigger brother that you want to make yoour own lot in life yet don't want to be too far away from.

All I have to do is look at your location and now that NZ defines itself in relation to Australia.

We're like the Bigger brother that you want to make yoour own lot in life yet don't want to be too far away from.

It's a joke. Poking fun at the fact that there are still lots of people who are unsure of where exactly NZ is.

Big brother perhaps. Autonomous semi-state? I think not.

Erm. No.

I concur. Though it would be nice.....

I think it would be great if Australia annexed Hawaii.

I think it would be great if Australia annexed Hawaii.

We had better get the natives set up better than what we do here then.

We had better get the natives set up better than what we do here then.

Assimilation should prove useful in this instance. That or decimation.

Assimilation should prove useful in this instance. That or decimation.

We know how well that goesdown with future generations don't we?

We know how well that goesdown with future generations don't we?

Only because the assimilation cycle was stopped half way through. Its like carving someone up into little pieces only to stop halfway through while they are still alive and say sorry, they ain't going to forgive you. However if they were completely carved up there would be no issue. They would be dead.

BTW that statement is not meant to be racist.

Assimilation should prove useful in this instance. That or decimation.

You tried both in Australia. Attempted genocide by every means you could think of - massacres, segregation and hopes Aboriginals would "die out", mass kidnappings of children over several generations, brutally enforced assimilation... And you constantly failed (thank goodness).

You should learn from New Zealand. They messed up pretty badly, but nowhere nearly as badly as Australia.

NZ, don't do it or Johnny Coward will be sending NZ troops to Iraq.

You tried both in Australia. Attempted genocide by every means you could think of - massacres, segregation and hopes Aboriginals would "die out", mass kidnappings of children over several generations, brutally enforced assimilation... And you constantly failed (thank goodness).

It was more an example of how low people can go (morally) due to the fact that it was only the forced assimilation of aboriginal children that was expilicity and systematically approved (rather than a cultural thing). Also that was only over about 2 generations at most for the children thing.

You should learn from New Zealand. They messed up pretty badly, but nowhere nearly as badly as Australia.

Some of their acts were just as bad, such as supply guns even though it was known they were slaughtering each other and Britain's forced aquiring of the land through shady practices after their land was recognized.

I think we can all agree that people easily screw up.

Waltzing Kiwis? :p

NZ, don't do it or Johnny Coward will be sending NZ troops to Iraq.

Nah, he'd just be using them to enforce the central command on the rest of Australia.

Waltzing Kiwis? :p

Eh? Mixing up Waltzing Matilda and NZ birds?

The real question is what is that money going towards?



I would prefer 80 for them, 20 for us and the cost of the equipment acting as a loan (if they require construction efforts)



Do you think that was a good thing or a bad thing?

who knows where the money goes

after watching the news today it be long time before they get a fare share

i don't think on it

who knows where the money goes

Well at least we know where some of it has gone: Increasing military budget.

after watching the news today it be long time before they get a fare share

Undoubtebly. By that time it will have to allow 'reforms' to allow defacto control of the country.

i don't think on it

Fair enough.

That or decimation.
You only want to reduce their numbers by 90%?! Why not just wipe them out?

You only want to reduce their numbers by 90%?! Why not just wipe them out?

Which ethnic group would Howard be able to refuse to say sorry to?

Some of their acts were just as bad, such as supply guns even though it was known they were slaughtering each other and Britain's forced aquiring of the land through shady practices after their land was recognized.

I think we can all agree that people easily screw up.

The supply of guns was more Maori putting pressure on the Europeans than the Europeans dumping it on the Maori. To be honest, the Europeans were kind of forced to sell the guns for supplies (food and water), especially given the long distances that were travelled by the whalers and sealers during that period.

Also, the land that went through the Maori Land Court was usually not forcibly acquired; they were mostly sold by the Maori themselves for whatever their reasons were. The only forcibly acquired land was the result of war between the various tribes and the British Army.

However, unlike the people across the ditch, we have allowed the Maori to assimilate into New Zealand. Our Minister of Foreign Affairs is Maori, there are a couple of parties with Maori leaders and of our 121 MPs, about 15 to 20 are Maori. We even have a Maori on our $50 banknote. I wonder what the situation is like for the Abos? I can virtually guarantee that it is worse.

Whilst they have had a better time intergrating they still have bad social problem (like with many minority natives).

The only reason it is worse is because the federal government neglected the remote settlements, preferring to try to wipe its hands of them.

Btw, we also have a person native to the land on a $50 note (David Unaipon) and since Australia's currency is worth more they win! Just kidding, you still rule the roost on actually getting projects benefitting natives going.

in a war you can't have civilian's cooking for can you

In a shooting war (like the invasion of Iraq) soldiers in the field eat MREs or the like, there are few field kitchens in the conventional sense. Once the invasion ended the dining facilities on US FOBs were set up and run by civillian companies such as KBR. They still run them today. Hell, US troops in Kosovo had a civillian owned Burget King staffed by Kosovar citizens.

Here is the real question: What would it take (concessions by australia, acts of australia or global events) to cause NZ to join?

What would it take to get NZ to goin Australia? I can think of a few possibilities.
1) If Australia boosted it's military capabilities, and then there was a subsequent security threat to both Australia and new Zealand, which seemed to be of an ongoing nature (not incidental). Perhaps, for ease of logistics, NZ would unite to an effect greater than that of a simple treaty. Admittedly, NZ's military being largely token in prescence, they would be at our mercy if we demanded it. However i am answering the question as what it would take to get NZ to consensually, non-coercively join Australia.

2)Perhaps if the NZ economy completely collapsed they might be interested in being picked up by Australia (but then the question is whether Australia would be interested).

3)If we paid them to do it. That is, if we proposed very very very generous terms to the inhabitants of NZ if they were to become a state. Again, something Australia wouldn't do.

4)If Australia and/or New Zealand progressed to market anarchism, the other may either a)annex the former state (forcefully or simply symbolically) or b) Follow suit to form one anarcho-capitalist region together (essentially uniting the former countries. (I think this, despite it's unlikelyhood, is the most reasonable and likely possibility of the lot).

You just had to unleash the latent nationalism didn't you.
Oh i did because we won the Cheaters-Paddles and Family Series.:p

Let's not kid ourselves, it ain't gonna happen. Never Ever. Both Aussies and Kiwis are to proud of their identities, kiwis don't wanna be Australian and no Aussie wants to be a Kiwi. The only benefits that would occur would be that NZ gets a better Rugby League team and Australia a better Rugby Union team.

Sure New Zealand would gain an increase in military power (increased from "barely there") however this serves as no great incentive. Sure NZ to an extent does rely on protection from Aussie and USA from potentil invaders but why would anyone want to invade NZ without first taking out Australia? As a launching pad to invade Antartica? To film an unsolicated version of The Hobbit?

A few people have mentioned the geographical closeness of the two countries as a reason to merge, New Zealand is as close to Australia as England is to Germany and we all know what happened the last time Germany tried to merge with England.

A few people have mentioned the geographical closeness of the two countries as a reason to merge, New Zealand is as close to Australia as England is to Germany and we all know what happened the last time Germany tried to merge with England.

That is true Russ but biological warfare has advanced quite a bit since then, with that in mind I don't think anyone would mind at all.

Let's not kid ourselves, it ain't gonna happen. Never Ever. Both Aussies and Kiwis are to proud of their identities, kiwis don't wanna be Australian and no Aussie wants to be a Kiwi. The only benefits that would occur would be that NZ gets a better Rugby League team and Australia a better Rugby Union team.

What will probably happen is a greater amount of cultural transfer, allowing a union to occur. It will also help counterbalance an increasing asian trade bloc (hopefully most of the south-east asian countries could be brought into a better trade bloc than the current one)

Quite a lot of people would like to see a NZ statoid as part of Australia.

Sure New Zealand would gain an increase in military power (increased from "barely there") however this serves as no great incentive. Sure NZ to an extent does rely on protection from Aussie and USA from potentil invaders but why would anyone want to invade NZ without first taking out Australia? As a launching pad to invade Antartica?

Antartica has more than enough resources to warrant a takeover of it.

Plus the penguins will stream from there to take over the world and NZ can't hold them back.

They don't rely too much on U.S.A now, what with the whole ANzUs treaty falling through.

To film an unsolicated version of The Hobbit?

China (well, the counterfeiters there) wants to make The Hobbit?

A few people have mentioned the geographical closeness of the two countries as a reason to merge, New Zealand is as close to Australia as England is to Germany and we all know what happened the last time Germany tried to merge with England.

Actually the way I see politics (ignoring geography) in Australia going it will be more like a pre-WW2 Germany and Austria, with either both feeling like joining together or Australia actually annexing (anchluss) NZ.

That is true Russ but biological warfare has advanced quite a bit since then, with that in mind I don't think anyone would mind at all.

Biological warfare? Usually when you want to make a viable country part of your own whilst keeping it in top shape you don't try to kill off the population...

Oh i did because we won the Cheaters-Paddles and Family Series.:p

Che?

Yeah? Well, we, we, ummm, we have a drought?

All your New Zealand are belong to Aust.

In Soviet Asutralia, New Zealand annexes YOU!!

I got a million of 'em.

If there was ever a point that needed humour to be inserted, this wouldn't be it (though very close so we can have plenty more!).

I want to hear more funnies! (I do seriously believe that out of the Liberals and labour it would be Liberals doing the most annexing. Nationals would be really wierd over it though so it probably would get a weak protest vote federally).

If there was ever a point that needed humour to be inserted, this wouldn't be it (though very close so we can have plenty more!).

I want to hear more funnies! (I do seriously believe that out of the Liberals and labour it would be Liberals doing the most annexing. Nationals would be really wierd over it though so it probably would get a weak protest vote federally).

It would be Labor that would support the merger more than the Liberals, because us Kiwis have had an unfortunate tendency to go Commie for the last eight years. Also, the electorates would almost certainly go Labor's way. With 25 million/150 = 170,000 per electorate, that would mean you would have a massive Dunedin electorate, and the National held Clutha-Southland + Invercargill seats would almost go. You would have two Christchurch electorates, and they would likely both go Labor (say bye bye to the big fella and Jim Anderton). Similar with Wellington (say bye bye to Peter Dunne), and up here in Auckland, we would have maybe eight or nine electorates of which two at the most would be National (North Shore + East Auckland).

Yep, it would be good for the Commies.

Quite a lot of people would like to see a NZ statoid as part of Australia.

From which side of the ditch? Not this side, that is for sure - we use Australia as our benchmark, so we can eventually be better. Remember what Muldoon once said.

'For every New Zealander that moves to Australia, the average IQ of both nations increases'

Remember what Muldoon once said.

'For every New Zealander that moves to Australia, the average IQ of both nations increases'

Well, Australia is SEVENTEEN places higher on the HDI than NZ, so :P

Yep, it would be good for the Commies.

You don't seem to becoming communist, more like a socialist or left politics. Then again I don't pay much attention to NZ politics (sorry).

Anyway, I like socialism (though not communism).

From which side of the ditch? Not this side, that is for sure - we use Australia as our benchmark, so we can eventually be better. Remember what Muldoon once said.

'For every New Zealander that moves to Australia, the average IQ of both nations increases'

I have to admit, as insults go it is a good one (too bad [or good] Keating just had his insults more to the point).

It would work out quite well for both NZ and Australia if they were brought together (though not so much if we simply annexed NZ). Why wouldn't it work in your favour? Australia is a much larger trading entity so you would have more markets to sell your produce.

I have to admit that I call all lefties Commies, so excuse the confusion there - it just doesn't help that they are supporting the most stupid piece of legislation.

It wouldn't work in our favour the same that a merger between Canada and the United States wouldn't work in their favour. It is largely a cultural thing, it would be highly annoying to many on the left, for example, if we merged with a nation that has nuclear power plants and allows nuclear ships in their ports as a matter of routine. Also, we already have a pretty good trading agreement (CER), so it is not as if we need a merger for good trading relations.

Also, it would shock Kiwis to go from our lovely tiny money back to those massive monstrocities across the ditch, and having to get used to 5 cent pieces again, eeek.

I have to admit that I call all lefties Commies, so excuse the confusion there - it just doesn't help that they are supporting the most stupid piece of legislation.

No offense taken. What is the legislation?

It wouldn't work in our favour the same that a merger between Canada and the United States wouldn't work in their favour. It is largely a cultural thing, it would be highly annoying to many on the left, for example, if we merged with a nation that has nuclear power plants

We only have lucas heights and that is not for mainstream power generation. It is used for various nuclear experiments and produces industrial/medical radioactives. I think it is being decommissioned and a new one is going to run there for the same types of work.

If Labor gets in and/or the balance of power is with the greens there should be no chance of nuclear power stations in Australia for the forseable future. Having no nuclear power (apart from the research one) would also help prevent Australia-Indonesia relations from sourering and leading to a greater military build up.

and allows nuclear ships in their ports as a matter of routine.

I don't really like that bit either. Good for you for exerting your sovreign right.

Also, we already have a pretty good trading agreement (CER), so it is not as if we need a merger for good trading relations.

I didn't mean Aus-NZ trading, I meant Non-Aus international trading. Anyway, that is an example of closer ties between Aus and NZ (bit like the EU).
Isn't most of your trading within the commonwealth?

Also, it would shock Kiwis to go from our lovely tiny money back to those massive monstrocities across the ditch, and having to get used to 5 cent pieces again, eeek.

You don't have a five cent piece? Do you have anything smaller than a ten cent piece?

I remember getting 10c and 20c NZ coins all the time...