NationStates Jolt Archive

I feel compelled to share something with the forums today, on the topic of generational guilt. What instigates me thus is the pearl of wisdom stumbled upon inadvetently by a young girl only 7 years of age.

The young girl, Zara, is always of an inquisitive mind, and prone to pointing out the simple inconsistencies in logic and reason ever prevalent in modern society. What serves to emphasise these accidentla critiques is the innocent and sincere nature of her pryings.

Anyhow, a few weeks ago, in an attempt to foster multicultralism her school had 'ethnicity day', wherein all of the student s of ethnic minorities were forced to isolate themselves by arriving to school in their national dress, bringing with them some of their ethnic cuisine (whilst the anglo-Australian kids build resentment and jealousy for the minority students). Anyhow, Zara in defiance of her Lebanese heritage insisted on going to school as an 'Australian', as she explained it "I was born here, just like all of them".

Anyhow, Zara met up with her friends, many of them dressed up in impromtu cultral attire of their great-great-grandparents (Australia being the melting pot that it is, hardly anyone has not a single relative from somewhere interesting). Lots of interesting conversation sparked up as the children learned of many unexpected cultral influences. For the most part, it seems multicultral day, despite it's fundamentally discriminatory premise, had been a success.

Then Zara saw her friend 'Sarah' (a white anglo girl) dressed in a scottish kilt with an aboriginal flag wrapped around her shoulders. Zara asked her what her dress was, and Sarah proudly explained that she was of a mixture of Australian aboriginal stock and scottish first-fleeters (though had apparently not carried much of the aboriginal phenotypical characteristics). Curious, Zara then asked:

"So do you have to apologise for what your great great grandparents did to your other great great grand parents?"

The two children shrugged it off, not caring greatly for or even recognising the import of what they had just said. The mind of a child.

I'm reminded of a bit from Colbert last week when he noted that it's possible that some of Barack Obama's white ancestors may have been slaveowners, and so he needed to apologize for slavery--to himself, apparently.

Meh, I thought about that when F1 Insanity posted his thread about reparations the other night.

It's more than likely that some ancestors of mine (Catholic and Presbyterian) were oppressed by other ancestors (Anglican landowners with representation in the Irish Parliament). And lets not forget the Norman ones, who took land off the native Irish in the first place. Then I need to remember how the descendents of the Normans (also my ancestors) had their land taken by the Irish (very possibly also my ancestors)


Do I apologise on behalf of one group of ancestors to my brother? Does he then apologise to me?

The joys of being (Northern) Irish. I think I need a lie down.

The joys of being (Northern) Irish. I think I need a lie down.
Especially since, according to those genetic tests, you're all closely related (as am I if you go back far enough).

Right. To me it just shows the folly in generational guilt, and ancestral punishment. Even the Romans, a brutal group as they were, criticised Solon for the "punishment of children yet unborn".

I understand that events in the past often have ongoing after-effects into the present, and that many of these after effects need attending to. However, i see no productivity in a self-consoling scapegoat hunt. It is understandable that the victims of the said results of historical incidents want the validation a scapegoat provides, however i believe it is not key, and perhaps may even be counter-intuitive in most instances.

Obviously current generations had nothing to do with past attrocities and injusticies, but I don't see how you can rule out any guilt as being irrational or something. To use American slavery as an example, if your great grandfather had owned a slave, and you met the great grandson of that slave, I don't see how you couldn't naturally feel guilty about it, and want to apologise on behalf of your family. I know I would feel terrible about it, even if I had nothing to do with it.

It's virtually certain that some ancestor of mine, raped, robbed or otherwise wronged another ancestor of mine during the Thirty Years War, knowing the geographical distribution of my heritage throughout Germany.

Do I care? Not particularly.

I'm certain one of my Russian or German ancestors wreaked more than their fair share of destruction upon my Polish ancestors. What am I going to do about it?

I've never been one for direct, generational, individual guilt. But I do feel that states, nations, and institutions, if they have not apologized for wrongs of the past, should do so, just to get it out of the way.

I also feel that if you're rich because you inherited money from a family line that was enriched on the backs of slaves, in that case something should be paid. Maybe they should call it "Back wages"

I'm reminded of a bit from Colbert last week when he noted that it's possible that some of Barack Obama's white ancestors may have been slaveowners, and so he needed to apologize for slavery--to himself, apparently.

Barack Obama is the first generation of his father's family to live in the US, if he has any black slave ancestory, it's either from his white mom's side, or they were Africans owned by other Africans.

I thought this thread was going to about quilts.

I thought this thread was going to about quilts.


as did i...Somehow the G's have begun to look like Q's.. Odd.

as did i...Somehow the G's have begun to look like Q's.. Odd.

Its because the g is underlined, hiding the bottom part of the letter. But I thought this thread was going to be about quilts too. It would of been an interesting change of topic.

I used to hate being the only "multicultural" kid on Harmony Day, and having to explain why I just wore jeans and a t-shirt and some kind of grass-skirt was because, believe it or not, not all Africans live in abject poverty!

Its because the g is underlined, hiding the bottom part of the letter. But I thought this thread was going to be about quilts too. It would of been an interesting change of topic.

Well, i wonder though, what exactly would a generational quilt be?

Well, i wonder though, what exactly would a generational quilt be?

I assumed it would be a quilt where every member of a family makes a part of the quilt at some point in their lives and every generation the quilt grows larger. But, I am basing this off an old Simpson's episode.

I used to hate being the only "multicultural" kid on Harmony Day, and having to explain why I just wore jeans and a t-shirt and some kind of grass-skirt was because, believe it or not, not all Africans live in abject poverty!
"What? You are black? you poor thing. here, *gives bag full of second hand clothes* So you must totally be wise and close to the earth, right?"

Fucking idiots. Don't they realise that the nation's immigration policies (of today and the past) virtually guarantee that anyone from a third-world country is either rich, or tied up in political corruption, or both (example, PNG nationals). Otherwise, they tell them to go away.

I assumed it would be a quilt where every member of a family makes a part of the quilt at some point in their lives and every generation the quilt grows larger. But, I am basing this off an old Simpson's episode.
Which was in turn based upon an iconic cultural american movie of some sort ('american quilt'? Or something).

I consider myself of Irish descent primarily but i do have a significant Serbian element in my family tree. The Irish have been screwed over by the English, and the Serbians have been screwed over by pretty much everyone they've come into contact with, and themselves. But at least they haven't done anything to each other. So YAY i don't have to apologize...to myself.

Right. To me it just shows the folly in generational guilt, and ancestral punishment. Even the Romans, a brutal group as they were, criticised Solon for the "punishment of children yet unborn".

I understand that events in the past often have ongoing after-effects into the present, and that many of these after effects need attending to. However, i see no productivity in a self-consoling scapegoat hunt. It is understandable that the victims of the said results of historical incidents want the validation a scapegoat provides, however i believe it is not key, and perhaps may even be counter-intuitive in most instances.

Exactly.

I think we got over the sins of the father being passed to the son for seven generations a while ago.

People are responsible for that they do. You can only apologise for what you have done. You can sympathise with someone for what someone else did to them, but you can't make a true apology on another persons behalf.

Obviously current generations had nothing to do with past attrocities and injusticies, but I don't see how you can rule out any guilt as being irrational or something. To use American slavery as an example, if your great grandfather had owned a slave, and you met the great grandson of that slave, I don't see how you couldn't naturally feel guilty about it, and want to apologise on behalf of your family. I know I would feel terrible about it, even if I had nothing to do with it.

I certainly can't tell you what you should (or do) feel, but I honestly think you should NOT apologize. Simply put, you don't have the right.

A man (or woman) is responsible for two things: what he does, and what he says. If anyone else apologized for me about something, he would be taking that responsibility from me - and to hell with my allowing ANYONE to do that! I don't care if I'm twenty years dead, or two thousand years dead - the one set of things that are truly mine are my words and my deeds. For another to appropriate them, to assume they have any right to apologize over what I have done or not done, is the height of absolute hubris.

I have ancestors who were involved in the "triangle trade" in the 17th century. Others, we're reasonably certain, fought for both sides in the civil war. I will never apologize for their actions. I have neither the responsibility, nor the right.