NationStates Jolt Archive

Do you think, to a greater or lesser degree, that immigrants who know the official language of their country (referring mostly to English speaking countries) should be restricted in some way from speaking their first language to their friends or whoever. The argument being that it is socially divisive and alienating (I suppose it alienates them for speaking it around non-speakers, and makes non-speakers also feel alienated). I mean if you can speak the official language, their shouldn't be a problem right?

I'd consider it good practice to learn the language of the host country, but I don't think it should be obligatory. Unless of course the citizens of the nation wish to make it a requirement to enter the nation.

Do you think, to a greater or lesser degree, that immigrants who know the official language of their country (referring mostly to English speaking countries) should be restricted in some way from speaking their first language to their friends or whoever?
No, I dont.

No, the reason being that people will always feel far more comfortable in their L1 as opposed to using an L2, no matter how fluent they become. There's also the issue that some cultural issues/objects/celebrations can only properly be done/conveyed within the L1. Finally, there's the whole loss of cultural identiy, which is often bound up with the language that you speak.

I know, in my case, there are times when I just REALLY want to hear and speak English as opposed to Japanese, to get a bit of Western/American culture in as opposed to stuggling with the majority Japanese culture I live in.

Of course I turn to NSG to get that, which says something sad about me, but there you are.

I know, in my case, there are times when I just REALLY want to hear and speak English as opposed to Japanese, to get a bit of Western/American culture in as opposed to stuggling with the majority Japanese culture I live in.

Of course I turn to NSG to get that, which says something sad about me, but there you are.

Well I am rather neutral on this issue, but I was wondering alot of it happens at my university which has many foreign visa students.

Absolutely not. A person's right to free speech manifestly includes the right to choose what language he or she speaks, and I can think of few more ridiculous reasons for outlawing something than "it's socially divisive and alienating."

Absolutely not. A person's right to free speech manifestly includes the right to choose what language he or she speaks, and I can think of few more ridiculous reasons for outlawing something than "it's socially divisive and alienating."

Well I guess the counter argument to that would be in such a country that one has a right to comprehension of speech, I guess my point is more a public rather than private question.

I think that's a ridiculous idea, primarily for freedom of speech considerations. Consider also the practicality of the matter, however - how on earth would you enforce that? Would you put the ban on tourists and other foreign nationals, too?

Well I am rather neutral on this issue, but I was wondering alot of it happens at my university which has many foreign visa students.
The university is a different matter. It could make it part of its admissions policy only to accept students versed in English. If the courses are instructed purely in English, this would make sense.

Well I guess the counter argument to that would be in such a country that one has a right to comprehension of speech, I guess my point is more a public rather than private question.
Would that give an Englishman to demand that another English person spoke comprehensible English to them, or to an adult to compel a teenager not to speak in slang? ;) It's very open to abuse.

Well I am rather neutral on this issue, but I was wondering alot of it happens at my university which has many foreign visa students.
I can understand their reasons (though, yeah, it can be taken waaaaaaay to far), but a lot of times it's done to releve stress (imagine going to a university and having to learn in another language) as well as reorder information so that it makes more sense. Different cultures tend to process information differently, and sometimes translating information from L2 to L1 helps form the connections for learning.

Well I guess the counter argument to that would be in such a country that one has a right to comprehension of speech, I guess my point is more a public rather than private question.
Is there a right to comprehend all speech somewhere? If it helps, most of the time us gaikokujin aren't talking about you. ;)

I believe he means getting students to not use their L1 outside of class. This would only make sense if the university in question is a deep emersion language school.
Ah. In that case I agree.

Is there a right to comprehend all speech somewhere? If it helps, most of the time us gaikokujin aren't talking about you. ;)

Well I am not American, so our Constitution doesn't really give us any rights, except religion I believe, but most of the main ones (speech etc) are accepted nonetheless. I don't so much have a problem with it.

The university is a different matter. It could make it part of its admissions policy only to accept students versed in English. If the courses are instructed purely in English, this would make sense.

I believe he means getting students to not use their L1 outside of class. This would only make sense if the university in question is a deep emersion language school.

As long as they don't use it to be assholes, I have no problem with it. I know for a fact that people are almost always more comfortable speaking in their native language no matter how fluent they are in their secondary languages.

Hell, I am (as are probably all of the other native English speakers out there), and if I were in a foreign country I'd speak English to other native speakers out of the need for that common tongue and shared cultural aspects. Of course, one advantage of English is that a lot of people know it well enough to get by, which could be valuable in a pinch if you don't know the native language of wherever you are.

I'd consider it good practice to learn the language of the host country, but I don't think it should be obligatory. Unless of course the citizens of the nation wish to make it a requirement to enter the nation.

Exactly.

Do you think, to a greater or lesser degree, that immigrants who know the official language of their country (referring mostly to English speaking countries) should be restricted in some way from speaking their first language to their friends or whoever. The argument being that it is socially divisive and alienating
What could be more socially divisive and alienating than banning the first languages of millions of people?

Do you think, to a greater or lesser degree, that immigrants who know the official language of their country (referring mostly to English speaking countries) should be restricted in some way from speaking their first language to their friends or whoever. The argument being that it is socially divisive and alienating (I suppose it alienates them for speaking it around non-speakers, and makes non-speakers also feel alienated). I mean if you can speak the official language, their shouldn't be a problem right?

...excuse me? Why the hell should they be restricted from speaking whatever language they please? If they know enough of the language of the country they are immigrating to in order to pass through society with at least a decent amount of ease then they can speak whatever they wish. Doing otherwise would be a serious detriment to free speech, not to mention it would be xenophobic and ridiculous.

No, of course not. People should be able to speak whatever languages they want.

Language pluralism ftw.

Do you think, to a greater or lesser degree, that immigrants who know the official language of their country (referring mostly to English speaking countries) should be restricted in some way from speaking their first language to their friends or whoever. The argument being that it is socially divisive and alienating (I suppose it alienates them for speaking it around non-speakers, and makes non-speakers also feel alienated). I mean if you can speak the official language, their shouldn't be a problem right?

fuck no. what a disgusting idea...:headbang:

Well I guess the counter argument to that would be in such a country that one has a right to comprehension of speech, I guess my point is more a public rather than private question.
I'm not certain one does have a general right to comprehension of speech. Even if one did, someone talking a language you have not bothered to attain the skill to comprehend is not preventing you from comprehending, so it's not interfering with your right to comprehend.

Immigration should generally be restricted to those who know the national tongue of the country they are moving to. (With the exception of older relatives who have someone coming with them/already there who can provide for them. Retired persons like my grandmother, who was 62 when we moved here, have no need to learn English to function) This makes sense in ensuring that they will be able to function in society properly.

That said, someone should be able to speak whatever language they damn please in personal surroundings. My family members speak fluent English at work and when they interact with others, but among each other we speak Russian. Especially with people like my grandmother, who doesnt speak English, and my great aunt, who isnt comfortable speaking it, we make an effort to speak Russian. Even those who married in are expected to at least make an effort to learn enough Russian to understand it, otherwise they will be enormously confused at various family gatherings.*

I'd like to see someone come up to a gathering of my family at a birthday and tell us we have to speak English, because they better damn well run fast.

*That reminds me of a story of my second-cousin's husband, who was with us when we were sitting around discussing books. My great aunt shows my mother a book, and they start talking about how one would translate the title. It turns out the second word in the title is rather offensive, but they're arguing about what it is in English. At this point, the aforementioned husband looks quite confused, because the only English words said in the conversation in the past few minutes are "bitch", "whore", and "slut." Laughter ensues while we catch him up. Of course, when speaking directly to him and various cousins who cant speak Russian too well we speak English, but still :p

Do you think, to a greater or lesser degree, that immigrants who know the official language of their country (referring mostly to English speaking countries) should be restricted in some way from speaking their first language to their friends or whoever. The argument being that it is socially divisive and alienating (I suppose it alienates them for speaking it around non-speakers, and makes non-speakers also feel alienated). I mean if you can speak the official language, their shouldn't be a problem right?

Are you saying I should no longer be allowed to speak in German to my friends???
I would have massive objections to that.

I'm not certain one does have a general right to comprehension of speech. Even if one did, someone talking a language you have not bothered to attain the skill to comprehend is not preventing you from comprehending, so it's not interfering with your right to comprehend.

Well I was talking about countries with an official language.

Well I was talking about countries with an official language.
Which point is neither here nor there since what my comments remain true both if you are discussing a country with an official language and if you are discussing one without. In fact it also remains true even if you are talking about a country with multiple official languages.

If a country has an official language, that's just the language that the system is supposed to work in. Such as, going to your local town hall, etc... would all be in the official language(s). This should never stop you from learning more languages, besides your mother tongue and official language(s) and practicing them, in public or in private, because it's nobody's damn business (I mean, come on, isn't it nice to be able to not unintentionally eavesdrop on other people?).

If a country has an official language, that's just the language that the system is supposed to work in. Such as, going to your local town hall, etc... would all be in the official language(s). This should never stop you from learning more languages, besides your mother tongue and official language(s) and practicing them, in public or in private, because it's nobody's damn business (I mean, come on, isn't it nice to be able to not unintentionally eavesdrop on other people?).

*lol
That reminds me... I always think it's hilarious to eavesdrop on other Germans or French on the bus, or in public. It's not hard either, since they tend to assume that nobody else understands them anyway, so they can go ahead and just talk about anything they want without lowering their voices.
The things you hear.... :D

*echoes 'utterly ridiculous idea' sentiments*

*lol
That reminds me... I always think it's hilarious to eavesdrop on other Germans or French on the bus, or in public. It's not hard either, since they tend to assume that nobody else understands them anyway, so they can go ahead and just talk about anything they want without lowering their voices.
The things you hear.... :D

;)

I was born and raised in a foreign country, and both me and my brothers are cautious about what we say, because we've all encountered very silly and stupid people not realizing that maybe, just maybe, the people you're talking about can actually understand what you're saying.

Seeing others make that mistake is funny. It's just like the one time my brother was with a friend at the cinema. Now, his friend couldn't speak French, but my brother could, and these girls behind them were commenting on a lot of things about them (probably assuming that since my brother and friend were speaking a foreign language, that they couldn't understand French - it goes both ways ;) ). So, finally, my friend tells my brother to say something to them and he turns around and says:

"Parlais vous Francais?" :p With a really strong accent too.

now That shut them up.

Moral of the day: Assumptions are bad and caution is the better part of making fun of people ;)

Do you think, to a greater or lesser degree, that immigrants who know the official language of their country (referring mostly to English speaking countries) should be restricted in some way from speaking their first language to their friends or whoever. The argument being that it is socially divisive and alienating (I suppose it alienates them for speaking it around non-speakers, and makes non-speakers also feel alienated).

Heck no. This is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. Also reminds me of a nice place (Turkey) where people get jailed for speaking Kurdish in public.

If you feel alienated because there are people speaking a language you don't know around you, learn it. Talking to friends is quite different from writing an official paper for your local administration. "Official" language is for "official" business. The language I speak with my friends is MY choice. Also, you cannot make a special law enforcing an obligation on some people. The laws of a country must be equal towards all people living in it, citizens, immigrants and tourists.

Anyway, I feel ok that a candidate to citizenship should prove that he's able to understand, speak and write the official language correctly (a thing that most english-speakers, even native, FAIL to do).

If a country has an official language, that's just the language that the system is supposed to work in. Such as, going to your local town hall, etc... would all be in the official language(s).

I'm quite supportive of multilanguage in the public administration.
Example: here in Milan we have italian as de facto official language. But we have also a lot of foreign tourists and immigrants. So, I think that the public administration should give to people who have to -let's say- fill a form for an official request, a multilanguage guide to the form.
We should use at the very least ALL the official (or de-facto official) national languages of the EU countries plus arabic, chinese, japanese, russian, turkish, and hindi.

people should be able to speak whatever language they want.

I'm quite supportive of multilanguage in the public administration.

Oh, I used to live in a place that had three official languages (not Switzerland :p it has four!), but nevertheless, it's wasteful and inefficient to operate in all the number of languages that the EU does. Only the EU has a legitimate reason to do so. Officially, I understand the need to have between one and three official languages (above that, and it starts getting messy). Unofficially, I think it's great when people learn lots of languages.

Do you think, to a greater or lesser degree, that immigrants who know the official language of their country (referring mostly to English speaking countries) should be restricted in some way from speaking their first language to their friends or whoever. The argument being that it is socially divisive and alienating (I suppose it alienates them for speaking it around non-speakers, and makes non-speakers also feel alienated). I mean if you can speak the official language, their shouldn't be a problem right?

No. That shouldn't happen.

People should be able to speak whatever language they want where ever they want. I think, however, when speaking in a group and one or more of the people don't speak L1, you need to be speaking the main language of the country; it's rude to do otherwise. I also think that though you may be uncomfortable speaking your new language, you should do it as often as possible, especially when in a public area. I don't, however, think it should be a law. Our government (America) has enough petty, Nanny-state laws as it is without them saying you HAVE to speak English everywhere.

I also think that if you move to another country, you need to be conversationally proficient in the national language. I don't think the government of 'said' country needs to, or should, conduct business in any other language. I'm also in favor of countries making that a requirement to living, working and becoming a citizen.

Well I am not American, so our Constitution doesn't really give us any rights, except religion I believe, but most of the main ones (speech etc) are accepted nonetheless. I don't so much have a problem with it.

No, you have freedom of speech. It's implicit, not explicit.

I think that learning the official language should be obligatory, (before or after immigrating) but immigrants should be allowed to speak their own language.

I'm quite supportive of multilanguage in the public administration.
Example: here in Milan we have italian as de facto official language. But we have also a lot of foreign tourists and immigrants. So, I think that the public administration should give to people who have to -let's say- fill a form for an official request, a multilanguage guide to the form.
We should use at the very least ALL the official (or de-facto official) national languages of the EU countries plus arabic, chinese, japanese, russian, turkish, and hindi.

In paperwork, great. In the marketplace, a little less great. In politics, defininetly not great! I live in Canada, where we are lucky enough to only have two official languages(English and French). Me, being a politically minded fellow enjoy watching televised question periods in the house of commons. Sadly, I do not know french at all, and it is rather distracting when all of a sudden, in the middle of a squabble between the politicians about the environment comes up, and good old Gilles-Duceppe decides to speak French, and I'm lost for the next ten minutes.

I'm all for people speaking the language they want amongst thier friends and families. However, on the wider scale, ie. the marketplace, work for larger co-orperations, the government, international affairs, ect. that a Universal Langauge be adopted. Frankly, I don't care what it is, as long as they give me a couple years to learn it. For the sake of humanity, this needs to become the public state. Privately, however, have a ball!

In paperwork, great. In the marketplace, a little less great. In politics, defininetly not great! I live in Canada, where we are lucky enough to only have two official languages(English and French). Me, being a politically minded fellow enjoy watching televised question periods in the house of commons. Sadly, I do not know french at all, and it is rather distracting when all of a sudden, in the middle of a squabble between the politicians about the environment comes up, and good old Gilles-Duceppe decides to speak French, and I'm lost for the next ten minutes.

I'm all for people speaking the language they want amongst thier friends and families. However, on the wider scale, ie. the marketplace, work for larger co-orperations, the government, international affairs, ect. that a Universal Langauge be adopted. Frankly, I don't care what it is, as long as they give me a couple years to learn it. For the sake of humanity, this needs to become the public state. Privately, however, have a ball!
Just a note, "corporation" is of similar origin to the word corpse, i.e. body. Not the same kind of "co-" you find in co-operation (or simply cooperation). :)

Matters of practicality and free speech aside, there's an additional problem, at least with English. The problem is that there is no organization that has the authority to decide precisely what is English and what isn't. English has absorbed a lot of words from other languages, and continues to do so. It's one of the beauties of the English language; it's been permitted to grow and evolve over time, because nobody has had the right to enforce their particular definition of "English" on everyone else. If we actually did come up with a "grammar police" that was supposed to enforce the use of English and only English, then what would be their guide as to what constitutes the English language and what doesn't?

This is a critical flaw from a legal point of view. If you're going to pass a law requiring the use of English, then you have to provide some strict standard of what is English and what isn't. Otherwise the courts have no way to determine if you've violated the law or not. You can't just leave it to "common sense", or even to "common usage" - they're too vague to be legally enforcable.

Why, oh why, do people come up with such nutty ideas in the first place? :rolleyes: