NationStates Jolt Archive

With all these reversals of freedoms, wiretappings, Apple having two-way monitors, and the US gov't being such a sad bunch of sadomasochists... who else thinks we'll be in Iraq for a very long time?

Okay, maybe not that bad generally I do not it will be dark times ahead for America.

What's worse in terms of "No end in sight"-ness: The war on terror or the war in Iraq?

It will be finished once the Coalition pulls out, and the UN gets in OR when either the Sunni or Shia minorities are the completely dominant majority.

I think it's part of the conservative agenda to perpetuate this conflict in order to so break the budget that we will have no choice but to eliminate the good things that our money is spent on. If we disagree then it simply boils down to "not supporting the troops,"

(I have a special, and extremely dark place in my heart for people who spew that meaningless phrase)

What's worse in terms of "No end in sight"-ness: The war on terror or the war in Iraq?

The terror one. Iraq is less nebulous.

It will be finished once the Coalition pulls out, and the UN gets in OR when either the Sunni or Shia minorities are the completely dominant majority.

Oh yeah, the UN will totaly solve all of Iraq's problems WAY quicker than anybody else. :rolleyes:

Oh yeah, the UN will totaly solve all of Iraq's problems WAY quicker than anybody else. :rolleyes:

It'll take them several years of course, and many many years of reconciliation between the two Iraqi majorities but yes I think the UN has more of a chance than the Coalition at any rate.

This war will last Myrth years. Duh.

What's worse in terms of "No end in sight"-ness: The war on terror or the war in Iraq?
War on Terror includes the war in Iraq...

It's already proven to be an Orwellian War.

We have always been at war with Iraq, we have never been at war with Afghanistan.
Always meaning since 1990?

It's already proven to be an Orwellian War.

We have always been at war with Iraq, we have never been at war with Afghanistan.

War on Terror includes the war in Iraq...

Bwahahaha! :D

Sure, baby :fluffle:

http://www.casual-gamers.de/cg/images/smilies/hammer.gif

It'll take them several years of course, and many many years of reconciliation between the two Iraqi majorities but yes I think the UN has more of a chance than the Coalition at any rate.

Yeah, just look how well they did with Rwanda.:rolleyes:

I think it's part of the conservative agenda to perpetuate this conflict in order to so break the budget that we will have no choice but to eliminate the good things that our money is spent on. If we disagree then it simply boils down to "not supporting the troops,"

Or they could be running up a huge national debt so that when a democrat is elected into the presidency and has to raise taxes, they can call them a tax&spend liberal.

But they could of done that by just spending more while cutting taxes.

Always meaning since 1990?

Exactly.

Yeah, just look how well they did with Rwanda.:rolleyes:

Different situation you know...

But not to worry, the UN won't send any troops - neither the US nor any member states wants that as of now.

Different situation you know...

But not to worry, the UN won't send any troops - neither the US nor any member states wants that as of now.

You're right. It's too late for even the UN, really. It would have been a different story if they'd been allowed into Iraq in 2003.

War on Terror includes the war in Iraq...

Only in the minds of neo-cons or those they've suckered.

Only in the minds of neo-cons or those they've suckered.
Which is my point.

We should kill all those dang terrorists and get out of there.

(TIMEWARP INTO THE PAST!)

The War in Iraq (this one, anyway) will have been going on for four years in two days. Wars in the distant past have lasted decades, US involvement in the Vietnam War lasted 19 years, the Korean War lasted 3, WWII lasted 6 - Try to have a little perspective here. The conflict in Iraq, especially in light of being a guerilla war of attrition and practically a civil war, is hardly exceptional in terms of length. Moreover, many of the nations who originally took part in the *ahem* liberation have already left. America is considering the same and popularly supports such an action.

Honestly, this is the instant gratification, fast food generation speaking. No matter how much you wish it, or how bad you think the reasons may have been for starting it, wars take time.

Now the “War on Terror” is a completely different animal, more akin to the Cold War but with a much vaguer (but no less demonized) enemy, goal, and conclusion. That’s a harder topic to tackle.

The War in Iraq (this one, anyway) will have been going on for four years in two days. Wars in the distant past have lasted decades, US involvement in the Vietnam War lasted 19 years, the Korean War lasted 3, WWII lasted 6 - Try to have a little perspective here. The conflict in Iraq, especially in light of being a guerilla war of attrition and practically a civil war, is hardly exceptional in terms of length. Moreover, many of the nations who originally took part in the *ahem* liberation have already left. America is considering the same and popularly supports such an action.

Honestly, this is the instant gratification, fast food generation speaking. No matter how much you wish it, or how bad you think the reasons may have been for starting it, wars take time.

Now the “War on Terror” is a completely different animal, more akin to the Cold War but with a much vaguer (but no less demonized) enemy, goal, and conclusion. That’s a harder topic to tackle.

I agree with you that as far as wars go Iraq isn't exactly the longest, but I fear we have already passed the point of no return. Shia's and Sunni's are killing one another with conviction and vengeance. There have been so many atrocities that the Iraqi civil war has descended into a "pay-back" mentality.

... in retaliation Shia's murder Sunni's. Sunni's murder back in retaliation... Shia's murder Sunni's in retaliation...

It goes on. And I don't see what the present Coalition forces can really do to stop this culture of hate. Once Al-Maliki and his government is toppled, there will definitely be no turning back.

The War in Iraq (this one, anyway) will have been going on for four years in two days. Wars in the distant past have lasted decades, US involvement in the Vietnam War lasted 19 years, the Korean War lasted 3, WWII lasted 6 - Try to have a little perspective here. The conflict in Iraq, especially in light of being a guerilla war of attrition and practically a civil war, is hardly exceptional in terms of length. Moreover, many of the nations who originally took part in the *ahem* liberation have already left. America is considering the same and popularly supports such an action.

Honestly, this is the instant gratification, fast food generation speaking. No matter how much you wish it, or how bad you think the reasons may have been for starting it, wars take time.

Now the “War on Terror” is a completely different animal, more akin to the Cold War but with a much vaguer (but no less demonized) enemy, goal, and conclusion. That’s a harder topic to tackle.
We were only actually "IN" WWII for 4 years, actually slightly less time than we've been in Iraq. We left 'Nam in like '73, and we sure as hell weren't sending Marines over there in 1954.

The War in Iraq's been over for years! Remember, Georgie had that big to do on the carrier with the big Mission Accomplished sign?
Same with the war on terror. Its 'the Struggle against Extremism'.
Remember?

:rolleyes:

The War in Iraq's been over for years! Remember, Georgie had that big to do on the carrier with the big Mission Accomplished sign?
Same with the war on terror. Its 'the Struggle against Extremism'.
Remember?

:rolleyes:
This? (http://youtube.com/watch?v=g6skfbT42lU)

I agree with you that as far as wars go Iraq isn't exactly the longest, but I fear we have already passed the point of no return. Shia's and Sunni's are killing one another with conviction and vengeance. There have been so many atrocities that the Iraqi civil war has descended into a "pay-back" mentality.

... in retaliation Shia's murder Sunni's. Sunni's murder back in retaliation... Shia's murder Sunni's in retaliation...

It goes on. And I don't see what the present Coalition forces can really do to stop this culture of hate. Once Al-Maliki and his government is toppled, there will definitely be no turning back.

True enough. Frankly, the most apt comparison to the sectarian violence is organized crime. The two sides are very much akin to typical gangsters - like the Irish and Italians but with less police intervention and more reason to hate each other. Many of the militias in Iraq ARE little more then crime families, and vendetta mentality just gets worse and worse with every death.

Still, I wouldn't say it's past the point of no return - especially considering that "returning" literally means installing another brutal dictator to keep everyone from killing each other again. To Saddam's credit, he did keep the religious mobs from killing each other while unifying his people through shear hatred for HIM instead of each other.

No matter what happens, it is going to take time. Electing a new president, leaving, staying, sending more troops, clamping down, loosening up, etc, etc… is not going to make the problem go away.

This? (http://youtube.com/watch?v=g6skfbT42lU)

Heh, the Simpsons take on the War in Iraq was a Treehouse of Horror episode?
Ha ha!

While I hate to agree with some-one like MrMorpar, it's true. The war is endless.

We were only actually "IN" WWII for 4 years, actually slightly less time than we've been in Iraq. We left 'Nam in like '73, and we sure as hell weren't sending Marines over there in 1954.

The last troops left 'Nam in 75, and US military advisers were there as early as 1950. You're right about WWII though, a lot of shit went down before we got involved.

The last troops left 'Nam in 75, and US military advisers were there as early as 1950. You're right about WWII though, a lot of shit went down before we got involved.
Yeah, but actual troops weren't in Nam til around 1963, AFAIK.

You know, what Iraq needs is a massive psychological warfare type program, to convince both sides to stop the violance.

Of course, it probably won't work. Worth a shot though, right?

You know, what Iraq needs is a massive psychological warfare type program, to convince both sides to stop the violance.

Of course, it probably won't work. Worth a shot though, right?

Dude. You do realize that's...


Wave upon wave of demented avengers
March cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream.
-Pink Floyd, "Sheep"

That is the Iraq war in a nutshell.

You know, what Iraq needs is a massive psychological warfare type program, to convince both sides to stop the violance.

Why not? It worked with the Israelis and the Palestinians :)

You know, what Iraq needs is a massive psychological warfare type program, to convince both sides to stop the violance.

Of course, it probably won't work. Worth a shot though, right?

Why not just pack some massive incendiary flares with cannabis and carpet bomb the whole country?

You can't tell me it wouldn't be fun to watch...

Why not just pack some massive incendiary flares with cannabis and carpet bomb the whole country?

You can't tell me it wouldn't be fun to watch...

Wait...would incendiary flares kill people? Or just disperse cannibis fumes?

Fumes. They explode above the surface.

I need to renew my passport.

Fumes. They explode above the surface.

Dude. You do realize that's...


Wave upon wave of demented avengers
March cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream.
-Pink Floyd, "Sheep"

That is the Iraq war in a nutshell.

Yeah, but did the Iraqi's learn karate and eventually kick the dogs asses?
PROTIP: Yes.

We'll be out within 2 years, 6 months and 23 days. That's my best guess.

Why not just pack some massive incendiary flares with cannabis and carpet bomb the whole country?

You can't tell me it wouldn't be fun to watch...

And keep it up for a week straight!

Why not just pack some massive incendiary flares with cannabis and carpet bomb the whole country?

You can't tell me it wouldn't be fun to watch...

I've been advocating what I call the "pot and Papa John's" (only for the alliteration) plan for peace for years now--drop burning bales of weed, followed an hour later with crates of pizza. Continue as necessary. There will be peace in a month at the outside, because everyone will either love everyone else, or will be too fat to fight for long.

I've been advocating what I call the "pot and Papa John's" (only for the alliteration) plan for peace for years now--drop burning bales of weed, followed an hour later with crates of pizza. Continue as necessary. There will be peace in a month at the outside, because everyone will either love everyone else, or will be too fat to fight for long.

Probably would be a lot cheaper, too.

Who else thinks Iraq is going to be some weird Orwellian eternal war?The 'weird Orwellian war' has been going on far longer than the Iraq shit has. The US has been at war with one or more countries non-stop since the end of WWII.

But apart from that, it's more realistic to view the current heating up of the Iraq conflict as just another phase. The US has been manipulating/fighting/sponsoring/fighting/sponsoring/fighting.... Iraq longer than Saddam was in power. Other being more successfull, it's not significantly different from the US' approach to Cuba and any of a couple of dozen other countries.

There's nothing terribly Orwellian about it though. The US is fighting for global hegemony. It has been for 60 years. Barring something spectacular, it will be for the next 60 as well.

War on Terror includes the war in Iraq...

No it doesn't. :p

My feeling is that the 'surge' is pretty much our last option. If it fails, I have an exit strategy:

Announce withdrawal 2 years in advance. Keep troop levels at surge levels until then.

During this time, increase defense budget to 20% normal levels. They're going to need it, because:

WITHDRAWAL YEAR:
Entire US defense budget is diverted to Iraqi military. Pentagon will have to make do with what is left over from the last two years. US troops withdraw gradually over the year. In addition, US bases will not be shut down - they will be turned over to the Iraqi military.
To avoid corruption, a comission will be set up to oversee how the money is spent. Anyone found pocketing money will be used for target practice.

Hopefully, the Iraqis will be able to pay its troops well enough to avoid desertion and corruption. They might even have enough left over to corrupt the insurgents (you're being paid $200 to plant that IED? I'll pay you $300 to make it a dud).

Train American fetus's (feti? fetusi?) to fight in the army

you'll need them in 20 years

I think we should give all the American soldiers red bull, so we can get out before the politicians want to.

How? You may ask.

It gives you wings.

Iraq, and the broader Middle East has been at war with itself or with someone else for most of its time. Iraq is only an extension of that unfortunate circumstance.

Iraq, and the broader Middle East has been at war with itself or with someone else for most of its time. Iraq is only an extension of that unfortunate circumstance.

Yes, that's very true. Kind of like Europe.

The thing we have to observe is that the war on Terror is a war on the ideaology of Islamofasicsm, just as the Cold War was a war against the ideology of Communism.
We fought the Russians for 44 years. This war against Islamofasicsm may be longer, but we're already whining after 6. It's quite sad.
As for Iraq? The generals have said that in order to win in Iraq, we would have to be there for at least 5 more years from December 2006. To think that we can make that place a successful democracy in 3 years shows how short of an attention span we Americans have now.

I think we should give all the American soldiers red bull, so we can get out before the politicians want to.

How? You may ask.

It gives you wings.

How much did they pay you?

We fought the Russians for 44 years.


No you didn't. You stared at each other over the fence and went "Nyaah!"


This war against Islamofasicsm may be longer, but we're already whining after 6. It's quite sad.


Because like the so-called war on drugs, all it does is just put money in people's pockets and distract the public from issues at home.


As for Iraq? The generals have said that in order to win in Iraq, we would have to be there for at least 5 more years from December 2006. To think that we can make that place a successful democracy in 3 years shows how short of an attention span we Americans have now.

The generals also said that they required a much bigger initial force. And that disbanding the Iraqi army was a bad idea.

Furthermore, the reasons for the war were as dubious as Japan's claims of 'stabilizing' the Asian continent during the 2nd World War.

No you didn't. You stared at each other over the fence and went "Nyaah!"

Outside of Iraq and Afghanistan, that's pretty much what were doing; I'd honestly say that these two wars are nothing in terms of cost compared to what is being fought behind the scenes. The only difference is that wars make easily accessible media coverage while espionage happens without anyone outside really knowing what's going on.

The vast majority of the War on Terrorism is being fought through counterintelligence, public relations and economic/financial warfare much like the Cold War. It's not a hot war by any stretch, even colder than the Cold War because terrorism isn't a state or organized enemy like the Soviets or the Warsaw Pact, but rather it's an easily mobile force that can operate and strike pretty much anywhere in the world with enough time, money, and planning.

The vast majority of the War on Terrorism is being fought through counterintelligence, public relations and economic/financial warfare much like the Cold War. It's not a hot war by any stretch, even colder than the Cold War because terrorism isn't a state or organized enemy like the Soviets or the Warsaw Pact, but rather it's an easily mobile force that can operate and strike pretty much anywhere in the world with enough time, money, and planning.

Too bad sufficient amounts of American's are dunderheads who think the only way to solve any sort of problem is with violence that it's their foreign policy.

Besides, I think I can safely say that the current administration isn't all that interested in things like counterintelligence. If they were, they'd have put a stop to homophobia, politics and scapegoating from interfering with their intelligence community. As it is, they aren't.

Too bad sufficient amounts of American's are dunderheads who think the only way to solve any sort of problem is with violence that it's their foreign policy.

And, of course, that screws up everything else we do since it's impossible to "win hearts and minds" when your soldiers are out killing a big chunk of their population and reducing it to rubble and when you have a president who doesn't give a shit about international law, logic, political consensus or cooperation.

Besides, I think I can safely say that the current administration isn't all that interested in things like counterintelligence. If they were, they'd have put a stop to homophobia, politics and scapegoating from interfering with their intelligence community. As it is, they aren't.

That's why the people who win the war on terror aren't going to be like them...

No you didn't. You stared at each other over the fence and went "I am a pastry".

Fix'd

And, of course, that screws up everything else we do since it's impossible to "win hearts and minds" when your soldiers are out killing a big chunk of their population and reducing it to rubble and when you have a president who doesn't give a shit about international law, logic, political consensus or cooperation.

Seems like the solution is re-educating large chunks of the population as well as completely eradicating all current politicians up to the executive. The US needs a reset button somewhere.


That's why the people who win the war on terror aren't going to be like them...

Can you honestly say that there will be people who can win it? Short of some super charismatic talker who can charm birds off trees and make men walk through fire on command, I don't think there will be anyone who can even start getting anywhere close to that goal.