NationStates Jolt Archive

Seems like a lot of [otherwise] reasonable people have major, major psychological issues about illegal immigrants. So what's your solution to this horrific problem?

I have a problem with how awful people make "illegals" out to be. Sure the nazis might say it's "genocide against whites," but they're retarded and that's to be expected. It's surprising and dismaying to me to see immigration referred to as an "invasion" by affluent americans who have never been in a country that's being invaded. The paranoia and xenophobia is alarming.

On another forum I post at, one guy kept going on about how eager he was to shoot an illegal immigrant if he caught one on his property. About how ohnoes, all illegal immigrants:

1) Produce millions of dollars of trash
2) Slaughter livestock!
3) Rape and kill!
4) Smuggle EVIL drugs!
5) Are lazy!
6) Steal our jobs!
7) Ruin the nation!

And yet another guy, who I always used to think was reasonable, was going on about how he wanted to beat up a "fucking wetback" for hitting his car. Jesus.

Anyway, my solution is fairly simple minded: Make legal immigration easier. Remove some of those 98+ forms that one needs. Remove the fees for immigration. Stop treating immigrants (no matter where they're from) as if they're terrorists.

But I expect to hear a lot of plans about barbed wire and tanks. Let's hear em.

Eliminate the income tax and make a flat federal sales tax. Therefore forcing immigrants to pay taxes.

I love you guys.

Even though you're commies. :)

Start leveling real penalties on companies that hire illegals, and when I say real penalties, I mean the kind of penalties that will put some companies out of business. And add criminal penalties to the CEOs and other officers of the companies as well. Throw some of the employers in jail, and those companies will suddenly get a lot more cautious about who they're hiring, and jobs for illegals will dry up.

Of course, that will be immediately followed by calls for freer immigration laws from the companies that were previously hiring illegals.

Open borders.

Not to care.

We so openly accept Europeans (these days anyway) and Canadians into our country, but when someone dark skinned comes in it's: "OMFG AIDS AND OUR JOBS WITH TERRORISTS!!!!"

LOL

http://workpermit.com/news/2007_01_01/uk/immigrant_contribution_workforce_economy.htm

Fact is migrants are a net contributor to the economy because they usually do the jobs that we see beneath us

Income levels for 78% of migrants under the scheme were between £4.50 - £5.99* and hour. 97% of workers registered under the scheme during the report period were working full time.

According to application forms, most did not intend to stay in the UK for a significant length of time:

• 25% answered "Do not know"

• 55% checked "Less than 3 months"

• 2% checked "3 to 5 months"

• 3% checked "6 to 11 months"

• 5% checked "1 to 2 years"

• 10% checked "More than two years"


http://www.workpermit.com/news/2007_02_28/uk/accession_monitoring_report.htm
My favourite part of another article
* Pretty much minimum wage in the UK

Open borders.

and full protection of human rights

My solution: Legalize them and open the border.

My solution: Legalize them and open the border.
And what do you do about the flooded schools and hospitals?

GMAFB

Damn those lazy, job-stealing illegal immigrants, always sneaking north across the border, raping our livestock, ruining our nation! We should put tanks and barbed wire across the Great Lakes and stop this kind of thing from happening!

And what do you do about the flooded schools and hospitals?

GMAFB

Oh, there's an easy solution to this: quit sending billions of dollars to fund the Israeli war machine. Use the saved taxes for education and health care.

I think just opening them would create a whole series of different problems, however the requirements, time and cost to issue a visa should be decreased, migrant worker programs expanded, paths into citizenship eased. And source countries should also play their part: providing background checks and information on their citizens, trying to improve the economic situation at home, Mexico specially should try to stop people from crossing illegally from their side and also be better host to crossing immigrants from third countries, etc.

Start leveling real penalties on companies that hire illegals, and when I say real penalties, I mean the kind of penalties that will put some companies out of business. And add criminal penalties to the CEOs and other officers of the companies as well. Throw some of the employers in jail, and those companies will suddenly get a lot more cautious about who they're hiring, and jobs for illegals will dry up.

Of course, that will be immediately followed by calls for freer immigration laws from the companies that were previously hiring illegals.

Is there something wrong with hiring people who want to work?

Is there something wrong with hiring people who want to work?

It "takes jobs away from citizens." And apparently being born in this country means I deserve any job I want... even if I haven't been hired to work it, it's "mine" anyway.

Not to care.

We so openly accept Europeans (these days anyway) and Canadians into our country, but when someone dark skinned comes in it's: "OMFG AIDS AND OUR JOBS WITH TERRORISTS!!!!"

No I believe the same rules apply to Cannadians and Mexicans. My freind from cannada has been trying to get citizenship for over a year and is going to have to hire a lawyer to do it. Its kind of hard but I did offer to marry him.

It "takes jobs away from citizens." And apparently being born in this country means I deserve any job I want... even if I haven't been hired to work it, it's "mine" anyway.

Oh ok *wink* I suppose outsourcing is killing our economy too right?

And what do you do about the flooded schools and hospitals?

GMAFBFund them with more than 2 cents.

Is there something wrong with hiring people who want to work?

Not at all--but there's plenty wrong with exploiting people who have no legal way to defend themselves because they're here illegally. My long term goal with that bit up there is to make immigration easier and open the borders more widely. The problem is that companies that hire illegals fuck them over because they can. If the companies aren't allowed to do that anymore--and the only way to do that is to make sure they hire only legal residents--then a large part of the problem will simply melt away.

Build a HUGE wall on the Mexican southren border. Then annex Mexico with both nations approval of course. Will stop 75% of the illegal immigrant flow.

Fund them with more than 2 cents.

Are you kidding me? America spends more on public schools that anybody else, Kansas get over 15,000 per student, we just don't let parents choose where their kids go so the schools never have to measure up to any standards.

Simple. Get rid of racist Quotas. Anyone who wants to be an American should be able to be an American.

Are you kidding me? America spends more on public schools that anybody else, Kansas get over 15,000 per student, we just don't let parents choose where their kids go so the schools never have to measure up to any standards.

Educational funding in America is a little misleading when you look at the raw statistics. Federal government funding is lower than many other nations, but Education is primarily a function of the state governments. Many times, education is the single largest expendature in a state budget.

Oh ok *wink* I suppose outsourcing is killing our economy too right?

Heh! Yep, I have it on good authority from definitely-not-biased nationalists who oppose the free market, that outsourcing is not only killing our economy, it is virtually treason!

Build a HUGE wall on the Mexican southren border. Then annex Mexico with both nations approval of course. Will stop 75% of the illegal immigrant flow.

but not the complaints about mexicans, which are at the root of complaints about illegal immigration

Are you kidding me? America spends more on public schools that anybody else, Kansas get over 15,000 per student, we just don't let parents choose where their kids go so the schools never have to measure up to any standards.I love bullshit before I go to bed. It makes me sleep better.

but not the complaints about mexicans, which are at the root of complaints about illegal immigration

Yeah, the Lou Dobbs crowd isn't exactly shouting for the North American Union, either.

3 pronged approch:

1. Make legal immigration into the US eaiser; remove the lotteries, the visa numbers, the quotas, the outragous fees, and the tangled red tape. I want to go back to the old system. If you're healthy, not a ciminal, want to come in, and can get here, welcome to the US. This will cut the flow in half because most illegals in the US aren't border runners, they come in on legit visas and overstay.

2. Ala Nazz, make it actually hurt to hire illegals for US companies. If the jobs aren't here, they won't be coming. If you enforce the laws and make sure that people are being paid the minimum wage (at least), there will be less jobs willing to take the risk and more people coming in legally due to idea 1.

3. Start investing in South American countries like Mexico. If we can improve the situation South of the Border to where people aren't starving or trying to find someway to make sure their family survives, chances are they won't be trying to come in because of idea 2 means that there are less jobs for them to come in on, and idea 1 means it would be easier to come in legally (and they'd be able to do so).

It's simple. Make it easier to get here if they want to. Make it harder to find a job if they come in illegally. And make it better for them to stay home.

Alas, I know that this is never gonna happen.

Seems like a lot of [otherwise] reasonable people have major, major psychological issues about illegal immigrants. So what's your solution to this horrific problem?

I have a problem with how awful people make "illegals" out to be. Sure the nazis might say it's "genocide against whites," but they're retarded and that's to be expected. It's surprising and dismaying to me to see immigration referred to as an "invasion" by affluent americans who have never been in a country that's being invaded. The paranoia and xenophobia is alarming.

On another forum I post at, one guy kept going on about how eager he was to shoot an illegal immigrant if he caught one on his property. About how ohnoes, all illegal immigrants:

1) Produce millions of dollars of trash
2) Slaughter livestock!
3) Rape and kill!
4) Smuggle EVIL drugs!
5) Are lazy!
6) Steal our jobs!
7) Ruin the nation!

And yet another guy, who I always used to think was reasonable, was going on about how he wanted to beat up a "fucking wetback" for hitting his car. Jesus.

Anyway, my solution is fairly simple minded: Make legal immigration easier. Remove some of those 98+ forms that one needs. Remove the fees for immigration. Stop treating immigrants (no matter where they're from) as if they're terrorists.

But I expect to hear a lot of plans about barbed wire and tanks. Let's hear em.

Tell the other nation which the people are immigrating from (especially if the government is helping them immigrate) to do something to stop the immigration and if they don't the illegal immigration would be seen as an act of war.

:mp5:

If that were the case we'd be stealing oil from Mexico which is way closer than Iraq and easier to deal with.

Tell the other nation which the people are immigrating from (especially if the government is helping them immigrate) to do something to stop the immigration and if they don't the illegal immigration would be seen as an act of war.

:mp5:

If that were the case we'd be stealing oil from Mexico which is way closer than Iraq and easier to deal with.

Got a battle plan to go along with your Rambo underoos and your gun smileys? :rolleyes:

Tell the other nation which the people are immigrating from (especially if the government is helping them immigrate) to do something to stop the immigration and if they don't the illegal immigration would be seen as an act of war. :mp5:


Warmongering. Of course. You are despicable.

If that were the case we'd be stealing oil from Mexico which is way closer than Iraq and easier to deal with.

Ah yes. Stealing = good. Wait, so what's your problem with illegal immigrants if you think outright invasion and theft are good things? I know what your problem is, it's not the law. It's Hispanics.

Eliminate the income tax and make a flat federal sales tax. Therefore forcing immigrants to pay taxes.

This works for me...and it would help resolve many other issues as well.

There are really suggestions I've heard that i liked

1. Just make it alot easier for them to come legaly more like it was back with Ellis Island and such only more so. Maybe just say so long as they haven't been found guilty of any violent felonies or such let them in.

2. Match our immigration policy to the strictist of whatever the country in question is. I've heard, for example, that Mexicos immigration policies for those south of them are even worse than ours are for them, and that kind of bugs me this would see to it that if they want their immigrants to here tbe treated better they will have to treat their own immigrants better. Of course this should be applied to all immigrants not just Mexican immigrants.

Eliminate the income tax and make a flat federal sales tax. Therefore forcing immigrants to pay taxes.

Assuming you're talking about illegal immigrants--because otherwise the stupidity of that comment is beyond egregious since legal immigrants do pay taxes, at the same rate as citizens do--you're still wrong. Illegal immigrants pay taxes in the form of sales taxes, and assuming that they're working under a false name or that their employer is doing something to make them seem at least marginally legal to cover his own ass, they're also paying Social Security, Medicare, and federal and state income taxes (where applicable) at some level, and they're not even eligible to get any of that back.

There are really suggestions I've heard that i liked

1. Just make it alot easier for them to come legaly more like it was back with Ellis Island and such only more so. Maybe just say so long as they haven't been found guilty of any violent felonies or such let them in.

2. Match our immigration policy to the strictist of whatever the country in question is. I've heard, for example, that Mexicos immigration policies for those south of them are even worse than ours are for them, and that kind of bugs me this would see to it that if they want their immigrants to here tbe treated better they will have to treat their own immigrants better. Of course this should be applied to all immigrants not just Mexican immigrants.

The Mexican econ. is in the dumper. These wouldn't really fix much. Under current regulations, we only have so many green card issuies, and if a green card status quota is saturated with people trying to obtain legal immigration (like it is now), you see an outpouring of illegal immigration.

My fix would be to help fix the Mexican economy.

The Mexican econ. is in the dumper. These wouldn't really fix much. Under current regulations, we only have so many green card issuies, and if a green card status quota is saturated with people trying to obtain legal immigration (like it is now), you see an outpouring of illegal immigration.

My fix would be to help fix the Mexican economy.

Considering that the housing crash is likely to put us in the shitter for the foreseeable future, we might not be the best people to tell Mexico how to run their economy. Just sayin'.

Considering that the housing crash is likely to put us in the shitter for the foreseeable future, we might not be the best people to tell Mexico how to run their economy. Just sayin'.

Not tell, help.

"The housing crash?" Do you perchance work for the NYSE? ;)

Not tell, help.

"The housing crash?" Do you perchance work for the NYSE? ;)

Nah--just read too much for my own peace of mind. And I live in one of those overheated markets, so I'm seeing the early stages first hand--lots of stuff empty for a long time, mostly high end. Lots of for sale signs in neighborhoods up for a long time, with prices creeping down every month--still too high for me, but coming down steadily all the same. And then the subprime mortgage lenders cratering--losing all their market equity and soon to head into bankruptcy. It's gonna get ugly, and much as I hate it, I imagine we'll see another S&L style bailout, because the people involved are the fuckers who never actually eat the losses. Some poor slob with no connections will be the one that gets fucked.

Nah--just read too much for my own peace of mind. And I live in one of those overheated markets, so I'm seeing the early stages first hand--lots of stuff empty for a long time, mostly high end. Lots of for sale signs in neighborhoods up for a long time, with prices creeping down every month--still too high for me, but coming down steadily all the same. And then the subprime mortgage lenders cratering--losing all their market equity and soon to head into bankruptcy. It's gonna get ugly, and much as I hate it, I imagine we'll see another S&L style bailout, because the people involved are the fuckers who never actually eat the losses. Some poor slob with no connections will be the one that gets fucked.

The natl. average for housing is staying nearly at where it was last year... it wasn't the same ginormous jump from the last couple of years.

maybe the housing bubble will just deflate or stay here instead of popping...?

The natl. average for housing is staying nearly at where it was last year... it wasn't the same ginormous jump from the last couple of years.

maybe the housing bubble will just deflate or stay here instead of popping...?

The problems with national averages is that, well, they're averages, and don't take into account the effect that a crash has on major markets. The default rate on subprimes is rocketing upward, and something like 40% of the mortgages written last year were subprimes. That's an awful lot of inventory in hot markets that's about to go into default all at once, and this is happening in places where there's already a lot of inventory. Those places are going to have a loud and painful pop. Other places will no doubt feel it less if at all--it all depends on where you are. But since mortgages are now apparently investment tools--who knew?--the market is going to feel it somewhat, and there are going to be a lot of people who decided to hop the real estate gravy train at the wrong time who will be out of work--as will all those construction people who had been riding the boom times as well.

And the rest of the world is itchy too--look at what the Asian and European markets have done the last couple of days. Everyone's nervous that this is going to lead to a recession.

They steal from us, we make them pay.

What the fuck do you think they "steal" from "us?" A job?

To quote Maddox.

News flash: immigrants aren't taking anything from Americans. Companies like WalMart are giving jobs to them illegally. If WalMart paid a company to hire immigrants to do the job over Americans then there's probably a good reason for it. I'm sick and tired of lazy gluttonous Americans bitching about immigrants "taking" our jobs. It's not like they can literally come to America, ambush us in the parking lot and take our job

I think fascist bigots like you need to get the FUCK out of my country.

Warmongering. Of course. You are despicable.



Ah yes. Stealing = good. Wait, so what's your problem with illegal immigrants if you think outright invasion and theft are good things? I know what your problem is, it's not the law. It's Hispanics.

They steal from us, we make them pay.

The Mexican econ. is in the dumper. These wouldn't really fix much. Under current regulations, we only have so many green card issuies, and if a green card status quota is saturated with people trying to obtain legal immigration (like it is now), you see an outpouring of illegal immigration.

My fix would be to help fix the Mexican economy.

Thats why both my suggestions involve changing current regulations;)

3 pronged approch:

1. Make legal immigration into the US eaiser; remove the lotteries, the visa numbers, the quotas, the outragous fees, and the tangled red tape. I want to go back to the old system. If you're healthy, not a ciminal, want to come in, and can get here, welcome to the US. This will cut the flow in half because most illegals in the US aren't border runners, they come in on legit visas and overstay.

2. Ala Nazz, make it actually hurt to hire illegals for US companies. If the jobs aren't here, they won't be coming. If you enforce the laws and make sure that people are being paid the minimum wage (at least), there will be less jobs willing to take the risk and more people coming in legally due to idea 1.

3. Start investing in South American countries like Mexico. If we can improve the situation South of the Border to where people aren't starving or trying to find someway to make sure their family survives, chances are they won't be trying to come in because of idea 2 means that there are less jobs for them to come in on, and idea 1 means it would be easier to come in legally (and they'd be able to do so).

It's simple. Make it easier to get here if they want to. Make it harder to find a job if they come in illegally. And make it better for them to stay home.

Alas, I know that this is never gonna happen.

What he said. We should make it a point to keep our borders safe. However, we also need to see that "illegals" are a benefit to our economy, and that we have a moral duty to open our arms to those who are healthy, law abiding people to offer them a chance at the American Dream.

The problems with national averages is that, well, they're averages, and don't take into account the effect that a crash has on major markets. The default rate on subprimes is rocketing upward, and something like 40% of the mortgages written last year were subprimes. That's an awful lot of inventory in hot markets that's about to go into default all at once, and this is happening in places where there's already a lot of inventory. Those places are going to have a loud and painful pop. Other places will no doubt feel it less if at all--it all depends on where you are. But since mortgages are now apparently investment tools--who knew?--the market is going to feel it somewhat, and there are going to be a lot of people who decided to hop the real estate gravy train at the wrong time who will be out of work--as will all those construction people who had been riding the boom times as well.

And the rest of the world is itchy too--look at what the Asian and European markets have done the last couple of days. Everyone's nervous that this is going to lead to a recession.

well, unfortunately, this is how a globalized economy works. you're right about the major markets/crash argument, because im certain that a housing market crash will be more like a domino effect than just one big boom. unfortunately.

because once people see those housing prices and subprime rates falling in like a sinkhole, everyone and their dog and their dogs fleas are going to bail. and thats not the kind of recession the US or the world needs, considering our ties to the global economy.

Seems like a lot of [otherwise] reasonable people have major, major psychological issues about illegal immigrants. So what's your solution to this horrific problem?

I have a problem with how awful people make "illegals" out to be. Sure the nazis might say it's "genocide against whites," but they're retarded and that's to be expected. It's surprising and dismaying to me to see immigration referred to as an "invasion" by affluent americans who have never been in a country that's being invaded. The paranoia and xenophobia is alarming.

On another forum I post at, one guy kept going on about how eager he was to shoot an illegal immigrant if he caught one on his property. About how ohnoes, all illegal immigrants:

1) Produce millions of dollars of trash
2) Slaughter livestock!
3) Rape and kill!
4) Smuggle EVIL drugs!
5) Are lazy!
6) Steal our jobs!
7) Ruin the nation!

And yet another guy, who I always used to think was reasonable, was going on about how he wanted to beat up a "fucking wetback" for hitting his car. Jesus.

Anyway, my solution is fairly simple minded: Make legal immigration easier. Remove some of those 98+ forms that one needs. Remove the fees for immigration. Stop treating immigrants (no matter where they're from) as if they're terrorists.

But I expect to hear a lot of plans about barbed wire and tanks. Let's hear em.

Annex Mexico.

Well then the rest of the fascist bigots would logistically have to leave and that would make the US population dangerously low because of all people going out.

Given that the fascist bigots complain so much about immigration's numbers and contributing to overpopulation, I don't see what your problem is with that. You should be volunteering to help america by leaving.

well, unfortunately, this is how a globalized economy works. you're right about the major markets/crash argument, because im certain that a housing market crash will be more like a domino effect than just one big boom. unfortunately.

because once people see those housing prices and subprime rates falling in like a sinkhole, everyone and their dog and their dogs fleas are going to bail. and thats not the kind of recession the US or the world needs, considering our ties to the global economy.

Yeah, I know. Fortunately, I'm in a halfway decent position. I teach at a university, and even though I'm not tenured, there's one truism that generally holds up--when the economy tanks, more people go to school, so I'm likely to stay in demand for the next few years until I can get one of those tenure gigs. And in the meantime, maybe property values will fall into my range--not likely, but it's possible. The important thing to remember is that a bad economy is only bad for some people. Even in Bush's first term, when the working and middle classes were taking it on the chin, some people (Bush cronies, mostly) were raking it in. It was a good economy for corporations and investors. For the rest, not so much. And the same will be the case here.

Well then the rest of the fascist bigots would logistically have to leave and that would make the US population dangerously low because of all people going out.

I think you overestimate the popularity of your position. After all, a recent CNN poll said that something like 60% of Americans favor allowing illegal immigrants who have been here 2 years and have steady jobs to stay and get on the fast track to citizenship.

But don't let the doorknob hit you in the ass on the way out.

What the fuck do you think they "steal" from "us?" A job?

To quote Maddox.



I think fascist bigots like you need to get the FUCK out of my country.

Well then the rest of the fascist bigots would logistically have to leave and that would make the US population dangerously low because of all people going out.

where would we send them??


I hear Greenland is staring to show habitable culture...

or maybe the Holy Land itself? that seems to never get satiated with human blood, that place..

why are you all listening to other people telling you what is "right" and what is not?

Live free or die trying

Does anyone here live in Los Angeles and remember the day that all of the Mexican workers (and some students... mixed with some dumbass others that didnt know what the hell they were walking out of class for) gave up working for one day?

I can honestly say I was happy that day because I could drive on the 10 freeway at 8am in the morning with no traffic :)

anyway, apparently CNN polls are teh nonsense, nazz... american people are just snooty assholes

*rolls eyes*

Given that the fascist bigots complain so much about immigration's numbers and contributing to overpopulation, I don't see what your problem is with that. You should be volunteering to help america by leaving.

you know, if the Us is desperate for oil theres no longer a reason to star FAR away wars over it.

Two, Mexico is itching to go to war with us, they've been bitter ever since we won the Mexican-American war. If Mexico and America unite then technically both own the land so theres no longer a fuss. America taking over would be permanent solution.

you know, if the Us is desperate for oil theres no longer a reason to star FAR away wars over it.Assuming you're talking about Mexico's oil supply, well, maybe you ought to actually know something about it before you say anything. They've peaked already, and they'll be crashing hard before long. Iraq, however, has billions of barrels of untapped reserves.

Two, Mexico is itching to go to war with us, they've been bitter ever since we won the Mexican-American war. If Mexico and America unite then technically both own the land so theres no longer a fuss. America taking over would be permanent solution.
I nominate the bolded part for dumbest clause in the thread.

Does anyone here live in Los Angeles and remember the day that all of the Mexican workers (and some students... mixed with some dumbass others that didnt know what the hell they were walking out of class for) gave up working for one day?

I can honestly say I was happy that day because I could drive on the 10 freeway at 8am in the morning with no traffic :)

anyway, apparently CNN polls are teh nonsense, nazz... american people are just snooty assholes

*rolls eyes*

I live in Southern California and I remember that. I believe it occurred last year on May 1. My friend was going to join the protest on that day but his dad didn't feel like giving him a ride. I heard some students at a high school near my old one ditched class when some protestors came over to the school.

you know, if the Us is desperate for oil theres no longer a reason to star FAR away wars over it.

Two, Mexico is itching to go to war with us, they've been bitter ever since we won the Mexican-American war. If Mexico and America unite then technically both own the land so theres no longer a fuss. America taking over would be permanent solution.

A Mexican invasion is imminent. Raise the drawbridge, prepare for the unstoppable might of the Mexican army! Surrender and they may spare your life!

Are you on drugs, or just 12? I'm honestly curious.

A Mexican invasion is imminent. Raise the drawbridge, prepare for the unstoppable might of the Mexican army! Surrender and they may spare your life!

Are you on drugs, or just 12? I'm honestly curious.
He did use the sniper smiley earlier. Take that as you will.

First, we have to make all the brown people white, as to make them appear non threatening to the whities. I figure we go to Jacko on this one, since he leaped from black to pale.

First, we have to make all the brown people white, as to make them appear non threatening to the whities. I figure we go to Jacko on this one, since he leaped from black to pale.

As an albino orange man, I find this statement offensive.

As an albino orange man, I find this statement offensive.


Damnit, not another of of those orangies..oompa loompas need to go back where you came from!

Extremely vigorous enforcement of laws against employing illegal immigrants.

Also, very substantial added criminal penalties for anyone who commits certain crimes and is here illegally.

ETA: Also, streamline immigration proceedings for people who speak English.

Open borders.

Look at what "open borders," have done for South Africa, and then reconsider whether that would be such a wise idea.

Oh, and my solution: Make legal immigration a much quicker, easier process.

Damnit, not another of of those orangies..oompa loompas need to go back where you came from!

RACIST! RACIST!!!!! ORANGE POWER!

Look at what "open borders," have done for South Africa

I have a hard time believing that, however awful it might get, the alternative is preferable. If conditions are horrific, then conditions where the immigrants came from must be even worse.

And the situations are not exactly comparable, either.

Look at what "open borders," have done for South Africa, and then reconsider whether that would be such a wise idea.

Open ... season?

<.<
>.>

Just kidding.

If conditions are horrific, then conditions where the immigrants came from must be even worse.

Then maybe we should look into ways to remedy that.

Then maybe we should look into ways to remedy that.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

I know. But I think we should try to help them, both here and in their home countries. How, I dunno.

Monitor the boarder with cameras and patrols. A wall will stop no one and punishing employers for hiring cheap labor limits economic freedom.

Every time I hear someone say that we need to keep jobs here, that outsourcing is bad, that hiring immigrants is bad I just think to myself "why are you so afraid of a little competition?" If I were an employer and could choose between two people about equally capable of doing the job I'd probably go with the cheaper man.

Immigration is probably the only real political issue I have any business talking about; it's my Senior Thesis topic and pretty much the sole thing I've been researching for two years.

Though most Americans have presuppositions when it comes to immigration, pretty much every one of them is wrong:

1. Illegal immigrants are not taking our jobs, the Dept. of Labor did an investigation and found no evidence. In fact if America wants to function economically, it will need illegal immigrants or immigrants in general. America is becoming more and more educated and the employment of Americans in low-skilled worker jobs is decreasing. So in actuality, they're not taking our jobs, we're giving them to them.

2. Illegal immigrants do not use welfare and most other public services. The states with the highest welfare use last year were Alaska and Hawaii (actually that was 2005, but I'm sure Alaska and Hawaii are still high up on the list) both of which (obviously) experienced no in-migration. In fact, the states with the highest out-migration were the biggest welfare states.

3. They rarely use the emergency room to treat injuries. Only 24% use it.

4. They rarely send their kids to public schools, but when they do, their children often excel and do well in school and start businesses and create jobs, etc.

5. Illegal immigration actually helps the economy grow.

The only solution is open immigration, most economists know this. We need the workers and Mexicans want to work. Immigration has been down significantly since 2000 so I wouldn't worry about any "invasion" conspiracy.

And anyone who tells them that they have to "learn English" if they want to be here has to move to China and learn Chinese or must learn French before visiting France. If you go to a foreign country no one expects you to speak the language, so they try to meet you halfway and speak English. Why don't we do that for the Mexicans? If you're multilingual you speak several languages; if you're bilingual you speak two languages; if you speak only one language, you're American. Demanding that people speak the only language you know how to speak isn't something to be proud about.

Monitor the boarder with cameras and patrols. A wall will stop no one and punishing employers for hiring cheap labor limits economic freedom.

Every time I hear someone say that we need to keep jobs here, that outsourcing is bad, that hiring immigrants is bad I just think to myself "why are you so afraid of a little competition?" If I were an employer and could choose between two people about equally capable of doing the job I'd probably go with the cheaper man.

Because when 'competition' is a contest of who is willing to subject himself to the worst poverty, Americans shouldnt win.

Simple, make it legal.


5) Are lazy!
6) Steal our jobs!

These two do not compute, by the way :p

Look at what "open borders," have done for South Africa, and then reconsider whether that would be such a wise idea.

Oh no we'll be overwhelmed by workers and people who are used to socialized healthcare. :eek:

Well Mexico is the largest immigration into this country. The people there come here for a better life. Why don't we just make Mexico part of the United States. Therefore they can have better and cleaner water, better healthcare, higher paying jobs, better education. After all most of them want to be in America anyway, so I don't think there would be too much resistance from the citizens of Mexico. And we will increase our territory and take care of our largest immigration problem by just innexing the whole country into ours.

Anyway, my solution is fairly simple minded: Make legal immigration easier. Remove some of those 98+ forms that one needs. Remove the fees for immigration. Stop treating immigrants (no matter where they're from) as if they're terrorists.

Glad someone agrees with me. Trouble is, all the legal immigrants will insist that they're being treated unfairly if we start allowing people into this country with less hassle. This kind of "I suffered, now it's your turn" mentality drives me nuts; it's exactly the kind of thinking that keeps things from getting better.

Seems like a lot of [otherwise] reasonable people have major, major psychological issues about illegal immigrants. So what's your solution to this horrific problem?

I have a problem with how awful people make "illegals" out to be. Sure the nazis might say it's "genocide against whites," but they're retarded and that's to be expected. It's surprising and dismaying to me to see immigration referred to as an "invasion" by affluent americans who have never been in a country that's being invaded. The paranoia and xenophobia is alarming.

On another forum I post at, one guy kept going on about how eager he was to shoot an illegal immigrant if he caught one on his property. About how ohnoes, all illegal immigrants:

1) Produce millions of dollars of trash
2) Slaughter livestock!
3) Rape and kill!
4) Smuggle EVIL drugs!
5) Are lazy!
6) Steal our jobs!
7) Ruin the nation!

And yet another guy, who I always used to think was reasonable, was going on about how he wanted to beat up a "fucking wetback" for hitting his car. Jesus.

Anyway, my solution is fairly simple minded: Make legal immigration easier. Remove some of those 98+ forms that one needs. Remove the fees for immigration. Stop treating immigrants (no matter where they're from) as if they're terrorists.

But I expect to hear a lot of plans about barbed wire and tanks. Let's hear em.

I think the people you refer to clearly are investing too much emotion in the issue. It's not all that important.

Illegal immigrants aren't the spawn of satan. However, they are breaking the law, and I think that law should be enforced. I don't think we need electric fences or any of that stuff. A good tactic would be going after employers who hire them.

It's not like the US has horrible fascist immigration laws. They're pretty similar to most nations' laws on the subject. Few countries just let you cross the border and stay there indefinitely, no questions asked.

Ultimately, people will keep attempting to come here whatever the risk as long as life is crappy for them otherwise. Improve conditions in the areas from which immigrants come and their drive to leave those places and come here will be much diminished. In the long run, this is the only real solution.

if america even wanted to be a free country, there would be no such thing as barriers to immigration. it may take a world government to finally ban all nations from restricting immigration, i don't know that. but i do know that it is self serving and ignorant to close any boarder to any unarmed civilian, unless that person has been fairly convincted of what in the nation they were immegrating to would be considered a serious fellony and had not yet served their time in durance vile. even that, well no immigration restriction is ever going to protect anyone from 'terrorism'.

like all things that are a product of human society, rather then nature's nurturing diversity itself, we get what we create a market for. and so called terrorism is no exception.

the solution to illegal immigrations is totally simple: just legalize it. period. eliminate the entire i.n.s. and border patrol. the are a complete self serving waste to anyone with half a conscounse.

=^^=
.../\...

Here's my solution:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/SithHolo.gif "I will make it legal!"

Seems like a lot of [otherwise] reasonable people have major, major psychological issues about illegal immigrants. So what's your solution to this horrific problem?

1. For those that are already here:

If you report to the INS now, and you have proof of employment, and documentation for you and your dependents, and none of you are wanted criminals (for other crimes) in the US, and have no non-political crimes that you were convicted for in your country of origin, we give you 2 weeks to take a short course in US citizenship - after which you and your dependents become US citizens.

2. For those of you that want to come:

If you have proof of employment (i.e., a job offer) from a US employer that will provide employment for 1 year AND

you work that 1 year without committing any crimes and stay employed AND

you take the 2 week US citizenship class

at the end of the year you get to be a US citizen, along with your immediate dependents.

1. For those that are already here:

If you report to the INS now, and you have proof of employment, and documentation for you and your dependents, and none of you are wanted criminals (for other crimes) in the US, and have no non-political crimes that you were convicted for in your country of origin, we give you 2 weeks to take a short course in US citizenship - after which you and your dependents become US citizens.

2. For those of you that want to come:

If you have proof of employment (i.e., a job offer) from a US employer that will provide employment for 1 year AND

you work that 1 year without committing any crimes and stay employed AND

you take the 2 week US citizenship class

at the end of the year you get to be a US citizen, along with your immediate dependents.

Wow -- way to oversimplify the naturalization (http://www.uscis.gov/naturalization) process by purposefully leaving out the fact that that job you take has to be with the military, or you have to marry a member of the US military.

Wow -- way to oversimplify the naturalization (http://www.uscis.gov/naturalization) process by purposefully leaving out the fact that that job you take has to be with the military, or you have to marry a member of the US military.

Why would someone have to be in the military?

All I care about is that the immigrant is gainfully employed, and not a criminal, and wants to become a US citizen.

If you don't want to become one, then you can stay for short periods of time on a visa (tourist, work, student).

Otherwise, get the fuck out.

They steal from us, we make them pay.

So you support the insurgency in Iraq.

Why would someone have to be in the military?

All I care about is that the immigrant is gainfully employed, and not a criminal, and wants to become a US citizen.

If you don't want to become one, then you can stay for short periods of time on a visa (tourist, work, student).

Otherwise, get the fuck out.

I guess I thought you were talking about the current naturalization process and not your proposed one. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

1. For those that are already here:

If you report to the INS now, and you have proof of employment, and documentation for you and your dependents, and none of you are wanted criminals (for other crimes) in the US, and have no non-political crimes that you were convicted for in your country of origin, we give you 2 weeks to take a short course in US citizenship - after which you and your dependents become US citizens.

2. For those of you that want to come:

If you have proof of employment (i.e., a job offer) from a US employer that will provide employment for 1 year AND

you work that 1 year without committing any crimes and stay employed AND

you take the 2 week US citizenship class

at the end of the year you get to be a US citizen, along with your immediate dependents.

Why citizenship?
Just make it easy for foreigners to work in the US.
They can pay their taxes in the US if they spend there more than 6 months a year (as happens in Europe) are protected by local work(?) law (i.e. minimum wage, work hours, insurance, reasons for firing, etc.).
No need to grant someone the right to vote (wich should basically be the only difference between a citizen and a foreigner) if he doesn't really want it.

Not at all--but there's plenty wrong with exploiting people who have no legal way to defend themselves because they're here illegally. My long term goal with that bit up there is to make immigration easier and open the borders more widely. The problem is that companies that hire illegals fuck them over because they can. If the companies aren't allowed to do that anymore--and the only way to do that is to make sure they hire only legal residents--then a large part of the problem will simply melt away.

That is a very good point, but if the Mexicans are getting a raw deal, then they should go home. But the problem seems to be that they don't leave, they stay here and get "fucked over" as you say. Is that a problem with big companies or with the immigrants? Or is that a problem at all if they really want to work here and if companies want to hire them despite not getting the same garuntees and legal protection as a citizen would recieve.

Make it easier to become a legal immigrant and have the government confiscate all the assets of any company that hires an illegal alien.

Damn those lazy, job-stealing illegal immigrants, always sneaking north across the border, raping our livestock, ruining our nation! We should put tanks and barbed wire across the Great Lakes and stop this kind of thing from happening!

not respecting our beastiality laws

not respecting our beastiality laws

I agree, sex with animals should be consentual. :D

Hunting licenses.

Giving them hunting licenses to hunt bigots? I'm all for it.

Actually I was thinking the other way around.

Oh and I was joking.

Hunting licenses.

Giving them hunting licenses to hunt bigots? I'm all for it.

Actually I was thinking the other way around.

Oh and I was joking.

Why I turned the joke around rather than criticizing you directly: If you were being truthful, it'd work, and it still seems to with you being facetious. See? :D

But I expect to hear a lot of plans about barbed wire and tanks. Let's hear em.

Sorry to disappoint..

my plan is a simple two prong plan.

First... Rework the Immigration system to make it streamlined, easier and more effcient at the same time, making it harder for people to cheat the system.

and at the same time... the Illegals already here would be given 2 months to turn themselves in, they will be deported to their country of origin with their posessions.

any and all illegals caught after the two month period will be...
1) processed like criminals. however, their DNA, Fingerprints and photo will be put into a Government database.

2) they will be stripped of everything they own. they will be sent back with only the clothes on their backs. (their possessions will help fund the programs and we suppy the clothes they wear. the Gaudiest, brightest neon colored uniforms we can find.)

3) any US Citizen/corporation caught harboring/employing illegals will be put on Trial, should they be found guilty, they will be heavily fined... I do mean HEAVILY fined. 50% value of all their holdings/earnings/property... with a 2% INCREASE per Immigrant. (proceeds will help fund the program)

4) anyone turning in an illegal immigrant or those who assist them will recieve one year w/o paying Federal Taxes or double their refund.

5) Any US citizen caught assisting Illegals into the country will be put on trial. Should they be found guilty, and their appeal fails, then they will have 100% of their property/earnings/holdings impounded, their DNA, Fingerprints, and Photo stored, be deported to the country of the immigrants they were assisting. their citizenship will be flagged and they will be considered exiled for a period of 5 years per immigrant they were helping at the time of their arrest. if those assisting the Illegals are not US citizen, they will be treated as an illegal immigrant. (impounded property/holdings/earnings will be held until appeal has been processed then used to fund government programs.)

6) any Illgeal caught for repeated illegal entry will then be reclassified.
1-5 repeats: Illegal immigrant (deportation w 100% posession confiscation.)
6 = repeats: foreign spy. (if contry of origin denies involvement, then they will be reclassified as Illegal Enemy Combatant and processed as such.)

7) any corporations assisting in the deportation of illegals will recieve tax breaks. (airlines to fly the immigrant and exiled "home")


anyone caught repeatedly assisting illegal entry into the country will be classifed.

Exiled Citizens:
2nd + offense. Reclassified as Illegal Enemy Combatant and processed as such.

Non Citizen:
after their 6th re-offense, they will be classifed as enemy agent, should their government deny any involvement, then they will be reclassified as illegal Enemy combatant and processed occordingly.

For those who's visa's have expired, they will be given leeway and a grace period to contact the Government. Failure to do so within the grace period will result in reclassification as Illegal Immigrant.

All arrests are to be done on American soil for these procedures to take place.

The benefits of this.
1) it makes it costlier to be caught... for both the illegal immigrant as well as those citizens who would assist the illegal.

2) it will create jobs as the new Immigration Services will be increased.

3) it offers favorable incentives for citizens to assist in the prevention of illegal Immigration.

4) employers are now forced to hire citizens and not illegals.

5) It will force Governments to clean up their own economy else be buried under the influx of exiled citizens and deported Illegals.

Glad someone agrees with me. Trouble is, all the legal immigrants will insist that they're being treated unfairly if we start allowing people into this country with less hassle. This kind of "I suffered, now it's your turn" mentality drives me nuts; it's exactly the kind of thinking that keeps things from getting better.

That's a pretty good point. Seems most people are OK with suffering, as long as other people suffer too. Misery loves company and all that. Bah.

since legal immigrants do pay taxes, at the same rate as citizens do
Here to correct your facts.
Immigrants DO NOT pay taxes for 7 years.
Fact verified by a tax professional and several legal immigrants.

So while us natives are taxed from day one,legal immigrants are given a pass,a leg up so to speak.
Presumably so they can buy up all the convienence stores and Dunkin Donuts and other franchises.

Illegal immigrants should be deported. if they are running from war, then they can become asylum seekers, and if not then they can be legal immigrants.

Dosen't that involve destroying jobs and limiting free trade? There has to be a better way. Guest worker programs? Flat taxes and legal rights for immigrants who come here? Something a little less facist maybe? Why do we need to make it easier to become a citizen anyway? Do we urgently need thousands of Mexican votes in Los Angeles or something?

if they are guest workers, then they are not Illegal.

if they are legal, then they will have rights.

if jobs are destroyed because of the removal of Illegal immigrants, then good riddance.

Make it easier to become a legal immigrant and have the government confiscate all the assets of any company that hires an illegal alien.

Dosen't that involve destroying jobs and limiting free trade? There has to be a better way. Guest worker programs? Flat taxes and legal rights for immigrants who come here? Something a little less facist maybe? Why do we need to make it easier to become a citizen anyway? Do we urgently need thousands of Mexican votes in Los Angeles or something?

Dosen't that involve destroying jobs and limiting free trade? There has to be a better way. Guest worker programs? Flat taxes and legal rights for immigrants who come here? Something a little less facist maybe? Why do we need to make it easier to become a citizen anyway? Do we urgently need thousands of Mexican votes in Los Angeles or something?

Legal immigrants contribute to society. They work, they pay taxes, and they boost the population rate. Americans don't tend to breed too fast, you know?

Strict punishments for companies found hiring illegals will eliminate the demand for illegal labor. Illegals won't come here if they can't earn money to feed themselves. Also companies hiring illegals are breaking the law and should face penalties.

Guest workers never leave. Ask a German about how may Turkish guestworkers are still hanging out since they were first invited in the fifties.

Baah let em all in open borders and all that, move, live and work where you will, contribute to the society and country you live in, go were your skills are needed and earn top dollar.

hang em, hang em alllll

The simple answer is “I have no solution.” I do know that we have to address a number of issues that fundamentally challenge the sacred cows of both liberals and conservatives alike before we can begin to address the long term solution.

We need to look at illegal immigration from a supply and demand viewpoint. There is demand for illegal immigrants because they often work for well under the minimum wage. (The “cost” of labor also includes taxes which are not paid as well for illegal immigrants. Thus they are very cheap relative to legal workers.) They work for these low wages because from the point of view of where they came from they are making good money!

Immigrants flow towards the money and the stronger the difference between standards of living the stronger the flow. Mexico has a similar immigration problem with people from Central America crossing their southern border.

So somehow we must address the sub-minimum wage job market, the significant difference between standards of living in Mexico and the U.S., the need for a real “free trade” in labor where both Mexico and the U.S. can not be deprived of proper income taxes, and the need t secure our borders against legitimate threats against us. As I wrote, I have no solution.

Baah let em all in open borders and all that, move, live and work where you will, contribute to the society and country you live in, go were your skills are needed and earn top dollar.

Great. No patriotism, no feeling of connection and responsibility to any nation. That sounds wonderful. I'm sure those citizens will be just chomping at the bit to make sacrifices for and volunteer for their nation. They certainly won't abandon the country for greener pastures at any sign of inconvenience.

Why I turned the joke around rather than criticizing you directly: If you were being truthful, it'd work, and it still seems to with you being facetious. See? :D

Tag, I'm it.:D

My real solution would be for the USA to annex Mexico, eliminating the problem altogether.

Great. No patriotism, no feeling of connection and responsibility to any nation. That sounds wonderful. I'm sure those citizens will be just chomping at the bit to make sacrifices for and volunteer for their nation. They certainly won't abandon the country for greener pastures at any sign of inconvenience.

Yeah you got it. What has patriotism ever brought us cept war? why should you not be able to go and make more money in a place where your skills are in higher demand? If a portion of the earth becomes under populated, then that means anybody who feels that they just dont fit in can go there and make their own life.


The point is we don't all think alike, suresome would leave in times of trouble(but then that make goverments more accountable) but some would saty.

Here to correct your facts.
Immigrants DO NOT pay taxes for 7 years.
Fact verified by a tax professional and several legal immigrants.

So while us natives are taxed from day one,legal immigrants are given a pass,a leg up so to speak.
Presumably so they can buy up all the convienence stores and Dunkin Donuts and other franchises.No one gets out of sales taxes, unless they're a charitable organization.

Legal immigrants contribute to society. They work, they pay taxes, and they boost the population rate. Americans don't tend to breed too fast, you know?

Strict punishments for companies found hiring illegals will eliminate the demand for illegal labor. Illegals won't come here if they can't earn money to feed themselves. Also companies hiring illegals are breaking the law and should face penalties.

Guest workers never leave. Ask a German about how may Turkish guestworkers are still hanging out since they were first invited in the fifties.

You make a strong argument. I have been persuaded a little bit. However I belive eliminating resident illeagal workers will lead to fruit companies outsourcing to mexico. And alot of Mexicans that work here do go back to Mexico anyway(source: "Crossing Over"). I still belive a geust worker option is the best plan for everyone. A geust worker program combined with strict penalties to those who disobey would be best. If immigrants want to work here and Dole wants to hire them, why stop them? Don't hate, regulate.

Yeah you got it. What has patriotism ever brought us cept war? why should you not be able to go and make more money in a place where your skills are in higher demand? If a portion of the earth becomes under populated, then that means anybody who feels that they just dont fit in can go there and make their own life.


The point is we don't all think alike, suresome would leave in times of trouble(but then that make goverments more accountable) but some would saty.

Patriotism isn't just about war. It can be. It can make people want to defend their homeland. It can also make people respect the principles that their country is founded on, like in the case of the US freedom of speech and religion. It also motivates people to do inconvenient things, like vote or do volunteer work for the benefit of the nation.


We think very differently. I seriously don't like your point of view, but I respect your right to it. The reason I respect your right to it is largely because I was raised as an American where free expression is sacred. I couldn't consider myself a patriotic American if I tried to silence people like you.

Patriotism isn't just about war. It can be. It can make people want to defend their homeland. It can also make people respect the principles that their country is founded on, like in the case of the US freedom of speech and religion. It also motivates people to do inconvenient things, like vote or do volunteer work for the benefit of the nation.


We think very differently. I seriously don't like your point of view, but I respect your right to it. The reason I respect your right to it is largely because I was raised as an American where free expression is sacred. I couldn't consider myself a patriotic American if I tried to silence people like you.

I understand what you are saying, but the real reason that you respect my right to my view has nowt to do with an acident of birth. I feel the same way and I'm English, so historicly I should feel superior the British empire and all that.

Noo man it's down to your genes and your upbringing.

Patrotism, is a scourge it does no more than focus on the differances between us without offering any answers. We are from the same species that should be enough, to bring patriotism into it is just silly. You have absolutly no control over where you where born, so why should that have any bearing on the type of human you are?

When the world becomes a global village instead of lots of seperate places then war, and famine and hunger will end.

I understand what you are saying, but the real reason that you respect my right to my view has nowt to do with an acident of birth. I feel the same way and I'm English, so historicly I should feel superior the British empire and all that.

Noo man it's down to your genes and your upbringing.

Patrotism, is a scourge it does no more than focus on the differances between us without offering any answers. We are from the same species that should be enough, to bring patriotism into it is just silly. You have absolutly no control over where you where born, so why should that have any bearing on the type of human you are?

When the world becomes a global village instead of lots of seperate places then war, and famine and hunger will end.

Actually it does have a lot to do with patriotism. My first instinct on hearing someone say something that disturbs me is to shut him up. I'm kind of a hot head. Part of me really thinks it would be easier and more convenient to silence people with different political or social ideas. The fact that I'm American and free speech is sacred to me reminds me to tolerate those who disagree with me.

I feel that BECAUSE we're all members of the human species we will always divide ourselves into tribes and compete with others. War won't end. I'm pretty sure it's built into us. The idea of a global village with no war is a nice fantasy, but I don't think it will ever be reality.

Even those protesting against US immigration policy made a point to distinguish themselves as a separate group by carrying Mexican flags. Humans are clannish by nature. If nations abandon having a national identity their populations will fragment into separate groups distinguished by religion or race and seek to take every advantage for their own little tribe. They will have no loyalty to the others in the nation. Abandoning patriotism doesn't unite us. It divides us even further.

Actually it does have a lot to do with patriotism. My first instinct on hearing someone say something that disturbs me is to shut him up. I'm kind of a hot head. Part of me really thinks it would be easier and more convenient to silence people with different political or social ideas. The fact that I'm American and free speech is sacred to me reminds me to tolerate those who disagree with me.

I feel that BECAUSE we're all members of the human species we will always divide ourselves into tribes and compete with others. War won't end. I'm pretty sure it's built into us. The idea of a global village with no war is a nice fantasy, but I don't think it will ever be reality.

Even those protesting against US immigration policy made a point to distinguish themselves as a separate group by carrying Mexican flags. Humans are clannish by nature. If nations abandon having a national identity their populations will fragment into separate groups distinguished by religion or race and seek to take every advantage for their own little tribe. They will have no loyalty to the others in the nation. Abandoning patriotism doesn't unite us. It divides us even further.


It is quite true that humans are clannish by nature, but this can all change and I belive in the fullness of time it will. I concede that perhaps part of your physche is because of the accident of where you are born(after all I don't know you so I have to take you at your word) but I will disagree with you on the whole patriotism bit.

It has thoughout history brought us more ill than good, logicaly if we all have the right to our views, freedom of expresion, and the right to make for ourselves and our families a good life, then why shouldn't people be free to move to the places where they can find such oppertunities? This is after all the American dream is it not, I can go there and make for me and mine a better life?

It is only patriotism, and with it thoughts of 'they are invading our space' that curtials this, it really is stupidity in the extreame. Who owns a country and by what right?

The only right throught history has been right of conquest, violence, invasion. That ultimatly is no right, for it means that one day even America may be invaded, if another country can grow strong enough, ask yourself would you like to see that happen, is that right?

It is quite true that humans are clannish by nature, but this can all change and I belive in the fullness of time it will. I concede that perhaps part of your physche is because of the accident of where you are born(after all I don't know you so I have to take you at your word) but I will disagree with you on the whole patriotism bit.

It has thoughout history brought us more ill than good, logicaly if we all have the right to our views, freedom of expresion, and the right to make for ourselves and our families a good life, then why shouldn't people be free to move to the places where they can find such oppertunities? This is after all the American dream is it not, I can go there and make for me and mine a better life?

It is only patriotism, and with it thoughts of 'they are invading our space' that curtials this, it really is stupidity in the extreame. Who owns a country and by what right?

The only right throught history has been right of conquest, violence, invasion. That ultimatly is no right, for it means that one day even America may be invaded, if another country can grow strong enough, ask yourself would you like to see that happen, is that right?
I think being clannish may have some roots in our genes. Bands of hunter gatherers that developed an "us vs. them" mentality would be good at kicking out competing bands. If I'm right, you'd need to change human genetics to eliminate that behavior and way of thinking.


In the end the rights that you can defend successfully alone or with your countrymen are the only rights you really have. At it's root a nation belongs to those who occupy it. If anyone can force them out or conquer them, ownership of the country has changed hands. Someday someone might become strong enough to conquer America. Because we're willing to make sacrifices to fund a strong military and many of us volunteer to join that military we can prevent this. Patriotism plays a large part in encouraging folks to spend so much of our tax dollars on a strong military.

Find them, execute a few arbitrarily to make a point, then deport the rest. As for where to, wherever I can bloody send them.

Duh, let in the hot female immigrants and throw the rest back out.

I think being clannish may have some roots in our genes. Bands of hunter gatherers that developed an "us vs. them" mentality would be good at kicking out competing bands. If I'm right, you'd need to change human genetics to eliminate that behavior and way of thinking.


In the end the rights that you can defend successfully alone or with your countrymen are the only rights you really have. At it's root a nation belongs to those who occupy it. If anyone can force them out or conquer them, ownership of the country has changed hands. Someday someone might become strong enough to conquer America. Because we're willing to make sacrifices to fund a strong military and many of us volunteer to join that military we can prevent this. Patriotism plays a large part in encouraging folks to spend so much of our tax dollars on a strong military.

No doubt you are correct but what I know of evolution means that our genes will change, I can easily see a day when humanity stops tribalising.

As I guess is evidanced by my thought pattern re patriotism. I actualy feel no patriotism towards my country at all, i would never fight in a war for muy country, I am more concered with my family.

If clannish behviour can not be over come, then how come I think and feel as I do, and so do many others?

Hehe perhaps I'm just more evoulved ;¬) Bwahahahahah!

No doubt you are correct but what I know of evolution means that our genes will change, I can easily see a day when humanity stops tribalising.

As I guess is evidanced by my thought pattern re patriotism. I actualy feel no patriotism towards my country at all, i would never fight in a war for muy country, I am more concered with my family.

If clannish behviour can not be over come, then how come I think and feel as I do, and so do many others?

Hehe perhaps I'm just more evoulved ;¬) Bwahahahahah!

You're a mutant, but your genes are doomed. There's a metric shitload of flag waving, jingoistic, nationalists cranking out kids as fast as they possibly can right now. How many kids will you end up having?

You're a mutant, but your genes are doomed. There's a metric shitload of flag waving, jingoistic, nationalists cranking out kids as fast as they possibly can right now. How many kids will you end up having?

Ahhh it don't matter how many I have, we have evoluved to be almost indestructable, and so when the ice age comes, (brough about by patriots BTW) and then goes, mine will be ralying the rest of the survivers, whilst the 'flag wavers' will all die of cold trying to 'defend their terrotry'


Heh but I myself am the oldset of 16 of us.

This topic seems to be about USA, but in Canada, all illegal immigrants should be deported because legal immigration is easy here and its rate is high.

No doubt you are correct but what I know of evolution means that our genes will change, I can easily see a day when humanity stops tribalising.

As I guess is evidanced by my thought pattern re patriotism. I actualy feel no patriotism towards my country at all, i would never fight in a war for muy country, I am more concered with my family.

If clannish behviour can not be over come, then how come I think and feel as I do, and so do many others?

Hehe perhaps I'm just more evoulved ;¬) Bwahahahahah!

Why do you feel that "tribalism", as it were, can be overcome? In essence, because you actually think, and are a member of an intellectual class within society that few identify, or engage, with. Thus, given that you, and the majority of NSG are a damn sight more intelligent, and aware, than the rest of society, of course you feel that a base impulse can be surmounted. However, the contention that humanity can homogenously dispense with the necessity to collect in groups is simply wrong, given that even snotty intellectuals will argue over sport simply due to affiliations, whilst the transformation of human nature is a central tenet of Marxism, and has been found a signal failure.

Find them, execute a few arbitrarily to make a point, then deport the rest. As for where to, wherever I can bloody send them.

Ah yes. The Nazi solution.

This topic seems to be about USA, but in Canada, all illegal immigrants should be deported because legal immigration is easy here and its rate is high.

What the fuck are you talking about? Because I routinely work on immigration applications on behalf of people trying to get into Canada, and 'easy' is the last word you can use when referring to the process. And the immigration rate has drastically declined post-911, due to some fucking ridiculous changes to the Immigration Act.

Find them, execute a few arbitrarily to make a point, then deport the rest. As for where to, wherever I can bloody send them.

Too bad we didn't try this with you bastards when you first came here.

Why do you feel that "tribalism", as it were, can be overcome? In essence, because you actually think, and are a member of an intellectual class within society that few identify, or engage, with. Thus, given that you, and the majority of NSG are a damn sight more intelligent, and aware, than the rest of society, of course you feel that a base impulse can be surmounted. However, the contention that humanity can homogenously dispense with the necessity to collect in groups is simply wrong, given that even snotty intellectuals will argue over sport simply due to affiliations, whilst the transformation of human nature is a central tenet of Marxism, and has been found a signal failure.

Bwahahahah I wouldn't have called myself an intelectual, man I never went to collage let alone uni, I left school at 15 and went to work, like the rest of my class.

In all respects, i am a normal member of sociaty. But to answer youyr question, it's simple evolution. We keep the genes that ensure our survial, tribalisic behaivour will one day be coded out, because it more than any other things has caused massive amounts of death.

What I mean of course, is that percived differances are the biggest cause of grief for the human race, and some day God(if that's your belief) or nature will sort that lil problem out.

What the fuck are you talking about? Because I routinely work on immigration applications on behalf of people trying to get into Canada, and 'easy' is the last word you can use when referring to the process. And the immigration rate has drastically declined post-911, due to some fucking ridiculous changes to the Immigration Act.

Pfft...

Wiki:

According to Canada's Immigration Program (October 2004) Canada has the highest per capita immigration rate in the world

http://www.parl.gc.ca/information/library/PRBpubs/bp190-e.htm

Too bad we didn't try this with you bastards when you first came here.

Excuse me? I'm British, and in terms of blood, entirely so.

Ah yes. The Nazi solution.

Thats original, play the "OMG JOO are the HITLERZOOR" card. I prefer Machiavellian, in any case, since it would work.

Excuse me? I'm British, and in terms of blood, entirely so.

Yeah, you fuckers...you brits.

I would have shipped the lot of you off to Syria. For the hell of it.

Yeah, you fuckers...you brits.

I would have shipped the lot of you off to Syria. For the hell of it.

No, you are not the princess.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/John_Bauer_1915.jpg

Pfft...

Wiki:

http://www.parl.gc.ca/information/library/PRBpubs/bp190-e.htm
Refugee quotas have been slashed post 9-11 despite the fact that the people who hijacked those planes were not refugees. And those per capita stats end at 2000. The Immigration Act has been rehauled, and a ridiculous amount of people are getting deported because of minor clerical errors that never would have warranted such actions before. Not to mention the impact the Anti-Terrorism Act has had on immigration...we can issue security certificates based on absolutely NO evidence to permanently ban ANYONE from applying for a visa, or residency. Sometimes, we do this just for the fuck of it because the US flagged someone of a certain name.

Seriously, don't talk about how easy it is to immigrate to this country based on raw numbers. That does not in any way inform the actual process.

Thats original, play the "OMG JOO are the HITLERZOOR" card. I prefer Machiavellian, in any case, since it would work.

Oh, no, you're not Hitler. You're just some little punk who enjoys being an offensive bigot from behind the safety of his mums computer.

However, the "solution" you offered WAS the nazi solution: execution and deportation. And you're right, that sort of thing might work. It's also so disgustingly immoral that if you truly advocate it, you're a sick racist. And if you don't, then you're just a troll. Which is it?

No, you are not the princess.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/John_Bauer_1915.jpg

Thank goodness for that.

Refugee quotas have been slashed post 9-11 despite the fact that the people who hijacked those planes were not refugees. And those per capita stats end at 2000. The Immigration Act has been rehauled, and a ridiculous amount of people are getting deported because of minor clerical errors that never would have warranted such actions before. Not to mention the impact the Anti-Terrorism Act has had on immigration...we can issue security certificates based on absolutely NO evidence to permanently ban ANYONE from applying for a visa, or residency. Sometimes, we do this just for the fuck of it because the US flagged someone of a certain name.

Seriously, don't talk about how easy it is to immigrate to this country based on raw numbers. That does not in any way inform the actual process.

Prove it.

"Current demographic questions aside, why does Canada have an immigration program, let alone one that welcomes more net immigrants per capita than any other country in the world"
http://www.parl.gc.ca/information/library/PRBpubs/bp190-e.htm#20

This report has 2004 date.

Oh, no, you're not Hitler. You're just some little punk who enjoys being an offensive bigot from behind the safety of his mums computer.

However, the "solution" you offered WAS the nazi solution: execution and deportation. And you're right, that sort of thing might work. It's also so disgustingly immoral that if you truly advocate it, you're a sick racist. And if you don't, then you're just a troll. Which is it?

Little? At six foot five, little's a tad difficult.

Thank you; IT WOULD WORK. Given that a limited number of illegal immigrants do commit crimes that would merit execution, whyever can't I advocate execution?

Incidentally, surely if an illegal immigrant is indeed illegal, they have no right to be within the country, and thus their deportation is the sole means by which one can contine to distinguish between illegal, and legal, immigrants, and maintain a semblance of border control?

Prove it.

"Current demographic questions aside, why does Canada have an immigration program, let alone one that welcomes more net immigrants per capita than any other country in the world"
http://www.parl.gc.ca/information/library/PRBpubs/bp190-e.htm#20

This report has 2004 date.
I’ll say it again. Numbers are not going to inform the process.

I’m in the midst of something at the moment, so I’ll lay out some basic problems with our immigration system.

1) The point system
Immigration to Canada is based on a point system, based on your education, qualifications and job experience. These points are good enough for immigration but not enough to get a job in your field. So you can be an engineer in your country, but you’re probably going to be a taxi driver here. And if you’re a taxi driver in your country? Good luck getting in.

2) The delay
Immigration applications take a minimum of 6 months, but are most often delayed to a year, and quite often quite longer than this. The process is quite expensive. In many cases, when applying from within Canada (there on a work or student visa), you will be forced to leave, and reapply from outside (this is a new change, used to be you could renew your visa automatically). Paying for that trip quite often makes it impossible to consider actually following through on the process.

3) Live-in Caregiver Program
This is a special class of visa issued, mostly to help deal with the child-care/health-care shortage we have in Canada. The majority of people coming in under this class are females, disproportionately representing the Philippines. Now, after two years of a continuous contract, a person on this visa is eligible to apply for permanent residency. However, what we deal with on a regular basis is the very common practice of letting contracts lapse JUST before the time limit. Some women have been strung along for YEARS this way…with families waiting for them back home. The problem is, there is absolutely nothing preventing employers from doing this, and no oversight from Immigration and Citizenship. It’s a great way to ‘get in’…but not to really STAY in, or get the same kinds of rights residents have.

4) Scope of discretionary powers.
Immigration officials have extreme powers of discretion to deny immigration applications on ‘gut feeling’ alone. You are not afforded an appeal unless you are actually ON Canadian soil when your application is refused. Also, since the changes to the Immigration Act in 2002, leave to appeal has been strictly curtailed...and if you can't afford a lawyer, you are hooped.

5) Turning away refugees
This site explains a bit of what is happening ( http://www.ccrweb.ca/eng/issues/publiceducation.htm). Successful applicants under the refugee category has dropped to a 20 year low since 911, and refugee applicants are not afforded any right to appeal their decision, even if returning them to their country basically guarantees they will be tortured or imprisoned. Most applications take at least a year to process, with nearly half taking almost TWO years to be heard.

Just briefly, because I’m not going to go dig up stats at the moment…I’ve been working specifically on immigration applications/appeals since 1996. The entire system has been radically altered since 911, and since the major changes implemented by both the Anti-Terrorism Act and the new Immigration Act. Lawyers working in this area often describe it as a guessing game. The ONLY thing that seems to make it ‘easy’ for anyone is one thing. Money, and lots of it.

Frankly, I am of the opinion that if you can hack it in this country, and last it out, then you are welcome. Because not many people CAN, especially if they weren’t born here.

I’d also like to point out that you very likely would be unable to immigrate to Canada if you weren’t already a citizen. That we manage to still let people in doesn’t mean things are ‘easy’.

Not at all--but there's plenty wrong with exploiting people who have no legal way to defend themselves because they're here illegally. My long term goal with that bit up there is to make immigration easier and open the borders more widely. The problem is that companies that hire illegals fuck them over because they can. If the companies aren't allowed to do that anymore--and the only way to do that is to make sure they hire only legal residents--then a large part of the problem will simply melt away.

This is just as prejudiced as someone saying all immigrants are lazy idiots who do nothing but spread disease and overburden our infrastructure.

Farmers have a dire need for labor - Americans simply will not do the jobs necessary. It doesnt matter how much you offer, even $9/hr cash plus bonuses based on the day's harvest is not enough to get anyone to work. Even if you do get any locals to actually show up, their productivity is a joke.

The labor market is too tight. Farmers need illegal immigrants to be able to function. The economy needs illegal immigrants to function until immigration policy is revised.

There are companies that abuse their workers, but they are a tiny minority. Most companies treat their workers fairly.

Without immigrants we would have massive labor shortages.

Little? At six foot five, little's a tad difficult.

Thank you; IT WOULD WORK. Given that a limited number of illegal immigrants do commit crimes that would merit execution, whyever can't I advocate execution?


You argued execution not for any specific crime, not with a trial, but simply to serve as a "warning" illegal immigrants.

Nazi solutions do work yes. They're also Nazi solutions. But that's only a problem for us non-nazis. Maybe you could deport or kill us too.

Incidentally, surely if an illegal immigrant is indeed illegal, they have no right to be within the country, and thus their deportation is the sole means by which one can contine to distinguish between illegal, and legal, immigrants, and maintain a semblance of border control?
Nonsense. Naturalization i a means of changing an "illegals" status to legal, thus solving that problem without the need for sending leaky ships into the sea to go wander around lost poor dying and huddled.

Again, this "deport lots of people" nonsense is the nazi solution to the Jewish problem as well.

This is just as prejudiced as someone saying all immigrants are lazy idiots who do nothing but spread disease and overburden our infrastructure.

Farmers have a dire need for labor - Americans simply will not do the jobs necessary. It doesnt matter how much you offer, even $9/hr cash plus bonuses based on the day's harvest is not enough to get anyone to work. Even if you do get any locals to actually show up, their productivity is a joke.

The labor market is too tight. Farmers need illegal immigrants to be able to function. The economy needs illegal immigrants to function until immigration policy is revised.

There are companies that abuse their workers, but they are a tiny minority. Most companies treat their workers fairly.

Without immigrants we would have massive labor shortages.
If there's anything prejudiced in here, it's in that bolded line. I've said absolutely nothing about the illegal immigrants as individuals other than that I want to make them legal and keep them from being exploited. How the hell that makes me prejudiced against them is beyond my comprehension.

And a tight labor market does not excuse exploitation. If we need more laborers in the US, then we need to make sure they're protected. And if that means we have to pay more for our food, so be it. I'd rather pay more and know that the guy who picked it isn't being abused.

Find them, execute a few arbitrarily to make a point, then deport the rest. As for where to, wherever I can bloody send them.

So you support what the insurgents in Iraq are doing. Good to know.

So they're lazy...and yet they "steal" jobs.
Which is it? oO;

They do the jobs Americans won't do.
And often for less than minimum wage.

I agree with simplifying the immigration policies.
American's fucking hard to get into, and there's no need for that.

If there's anything prejudiced in here, it's in that bolded line. I've said absolutely nothing about the illegal immigrants as individuals other than that I want to make them legal and keep them from being exploited. How the hell that makes me prejudiced against them is beyond my comprehension.

And a tight labor market does not excuse exploitation. If we need more laborers in the US, then we need to make sure they're protected. And if that means we have to pay more for our food, so be it. I'd rather pay more and know that the guy who picked it isn't being abused.

Exploitation? Did you forget that illeagal immigrants are working in the U.S. because they want to? To my knowledge, there are no Mexican slaves in America so who exactely is being exploited? This seems like a win-win situation for the immigrants and the farmers. Only the income-tax-payers are losing here becuse they are paying for the immigrants school and hospital bills.

Well Mexico is the largest immigration into this country. The people there come here for a better life. Why don't we just make Mexico part of the United States. Therefore they can have better and cleaner water, better healthcare, higher paying jobs, better education. After all most of them want to be in America anyway, so I don't think there would be too much resistance from the citizens of Mexico. And we will increase our territory and take care of our largest immigration problem by just innexing the whole country into ours.

That what I was suggesting only it had more blood lust and militancy in it.

So you support the insurgency in Iraq.

no, Iraq doesn't send illegal immigrants into the US and show extreme disrespect to the Americans that live there.

Sorry to disappoint..

my plan is a simple two prong plan.

First... Rework the Immigration system to make it streamlined, easier and more effcient at the same time, making it harder for people to cheat the system.

and at the same time... the Illegals already here would be given 2 months to turn themselves in, they will be deported to their country of origin with their posessions.

any and all illegals caught after the two month period will be...
1) processed like criminals. however, their DNA, Fingerprints and photo will be put into a Government database.

2) they will be stripped of everything they own. they will be sent back with only the clothes on their backs. (their possessions will help fund the programs and we suppy the clothes they wear. the Gaudiest, brightest neon colored uniforms we can find.)

3) any US Citizen/corporation caught harboring/employing illegals will be put on Trial, should they be found guilty, they will be heavily fined... I do mean HEAVILY fined. 50% value of all their holdings/earnings/property... with a 2% INCREASE per Immigrant. (proceeds will help fund the program)

4) anyone turning in an illegal immigrant or those who assist them will recieve one year w/o paying Federal Taxes or double their refund.

5) Any US citizen caught assisting Illegals into the country will be put on trial. Should they be found guilty, and their appeal fails, then they will have 100% of their property/earnings/holdings impounded, their DNA, Fingerprints, and Photo stored, be deported to the country of the immigrants they were assisting. their citizenship will be flagged and they will be considered exiled for a period of 5 years per immigrant they were helping at the time of their arrest. if those assisting the Illegals are not US citizen, they will be treated as an illegal immigrant. (impounded property/holdings/earnings will be held until appeal has been processed then used to fund government programs.)

6) any Illgeal caught for repeated illegal entry will then be reclassified.
1-5 repeats: Illegal immigrant (deportation w 100% posession confiscation.)
6 = repeats: foreign spy. (if contry of origin denies involvement, then they will be reclassified as Illegal Enemy Combatant and processed as such.)

7) any corporations assisting in the deportation of illegals will recieve tax breaks. (airlines to fly the immigrant and exiled "home")


anyone caught repeatedly assisting illegal entry into the country will be classifed.

Exiled Citizens:
2nd + offense. Reclassified as Illegal Enemy Combatant and processed as such.

Non Citizen:
after their 6th re-offense, they will be classifed as enemy agent, should their government deny any involvement, then they will be reclassified as illegal Enemy combatant and processed occordingly.

For those who's visa's have expired, they will be given leeway and a grace period to contact the Government. Failure to do so within the grace period will result in reclassification as Illegal Immigrant.

All arrests are to be done on American soil for these procedures to take place.

The benefits of this.
1) it makes it costlier to be caught... for both the illegal immigrant as well as those citizens who would assist the illegal.

2) it will create jobs as the new Immigration Services will be increased.

3) it offers favorable incentives for citizens to assist in the prevention of illegal Immigration.

4) employers are now forced to hire citizens and not illegals.

5) It will force Governments to clean up their own economy else be buried under the influx of exiled citizens and deported Illegals.

I like it. If they did this it could work. :)

........

This discussion is irrelevant. Easy and hard are subjective concepts. Let's just look at the facts.

1) Immigrating to Canada is easier RELATIVE tTO other countries since we are one of the countries with the highest immigration rate per capita.

2) Open borders is a silly argument to make. If borders are open and everyone is let in, chaos may follow which may destabilize the economy. If our economy worsens, that'd be bad for both us AND the immigrants themselves, since they are comming here mostly due to economic prospects. So immigration must be regulated in a way that is beneficial to our economy.

3) People should abide by rules.

That means all illegal immigrants, if they arent legitimate refugees, should be deported.

Exploitation? Did you forget that illeagal immigrants are working in the U.S. because they want to? To my knowledge, there are no Mexican slaves in America so who exactely is being exploited?

WTF? Just one example:


Illegal immigrants frequently denied compensation
By LIZ CHANDLER
McClatchy Newspapers

CORAL SPRINGS, Fla. - Jose Hernandez was good with a machete. So he was the top choice when his boss needed someone to chop down young trees that were choking parts of Florida's Everglades.

On one trip to the swamps, the workers flew in by helicopter and quickly cut a stand of sprouting trees. But when they took off again, something went wrong: The chopper lurched left, then plunged into murky water.

A broken rotor blade slashed through Hernandez's left thigh.

Doctors saved his life, but couldn't save his leg.

To pay for his costly medical care, Hernandez filed a workers' compensation claim, which covered some of his bills.

Then, the insurance carrier, Florida Citrus, Business & Industries Fund, discovered that Hernandez was in America illegally, without work papers or permission from federal immigration officials. It halted all payments and left Hernandez to languish in a low-income Florida nursing home, unable to work to support his wife and four children in Mexico.

Thousands of illegal workers like Hernandez are hurt on the job every year in America, but don't get the compensation that's promised by law in every state.

Bosses often fire them, threaten them with deportation and commit an array of other misdeeds to avoid responsibility for workers' injuries. Some insurers refuse to pay their claims, citing reasons related to their illegal status.

As a result, injured workers often go without medical care or go to emergency rooms for treatment - and taxpayers get stuck with the bills.

"It's a violation of the American spirit," said Florida lawyer Gerry Rosenthal, who represents Hernandez. "Employers are hiring these people and pushing them hard to make a profit for the company, but when a worker gets hurt, they abandon him."

From field hands to garment workers to poultry processors to construction crews, injuries abound in industries that rely on an estimated 7 million undocumented workers, often to do dirty and dangerous jobs. Yet those who are undocumented are frequently cheated out of benefits that American workers have taken for granted for nearly a century, a McClatchy Newspapers investigation has found.

Federal labor officials haven't studied whether undocumented workers are wrongfully being denied compensation. But the exploitation is rampant, according to interviews with scores of illegal workers, employers, workers' comp lawyers, health care providers and workplace experts, and a review of lawsuits and workers' comp claims.

In one national study, university researchers surveyed 2,660 day laborers, most of them working illegally. One in five said he'd suffered a work injury. Among those who were hurt in the last year, 54 percent said they didn't receive the medical care they needed, and only 6 percent got workers' comp benefits.

Employers in at least 20 states, arguing that their employees shouldn't receive injury benefits because they're illegal immigrants, have fought and lost in courts and review boards. Among those employees were a California laborer who hurt his back lifting sacks of coffee, an Arizona auto mechanic who was hit in the eye by flying debris, a Maryland carpenter who cut his hand on a saw, and a North Carolina construction worker who suffered a brain injury when he fell 30 feet onto a concrete floor.

Juan Palacios, a 27-year-old husband and father from Guatemala, was working on the roof of a Florida home in March when a coworker accidentally splashed hot tar on him. Palacios fell 12 feet and smashed through a glass table and onto a tile floor. He was hospitalized for a week.

During that time, he heard nothing from his boss at Sunrise Roofing.

"They don't care about me," Palacios said. "I feel bad because I can't work. ... That's why I'm here."

Sunrise confirmed that it had employed Palacios, but its insurance carrier, the Insurance Company of the Americas of Bradenton, Fla., has refused to pay. It won't discuss the denial but said in documents that "there is no employee/employer" relationship.

Palacios remains out of work. He's scarred and in need of skin grafts, he said. He relies on his roommates to feed and care for him, and he's received nothing from Sunrise.

The U.S. Department of Labor tracks workplace deaths and injuries, but officials haven't assessed how undocumented workers fare. The only hint is the climbing and disproportionate number of workplace deaths among Hispanic and foreign-born workers, which includes many of those who are working illegally.

Workplace safety programs also are failing these workers, as the number of inspections and the staffers to do them has declined. The nation's 2,300 inspectors check 1 percent of 7 million employers each year, and critics say fines are so low that risky operators consider them a cost of doing business.

"The regulators are rooted in paralysis," said insurance analyst Peter Rousmaniere, who's studied abuses of undocumented workers in a dozen states. "They don't want to acknowledge these workers exist - so, in effect, they are allowing them to be abused."

Workers' compensation is regulated by the states, but most simply offer review boards to settle disputes. Few states look for abuses of undocumented workers, and some adopt regulations that freeze illegal workers out of injury benefits.

Florida recently rejected hundreds of workers' comp claims because they didn't include Social Security numbers, a procedure the state Supreme Court halted last year because the requirement violated privacy laws.

A few states - Florida, Michigan and Kansas - allow employers to limit benefits or fine injured workers who use phony Social Security numbers.

"What you have is 20th century legal principles trying to catch up with the 21st century reality of a global workforce," said Bill Beardall, a lawyer and professor at the University of Texas at Austin.

"It takes time - and persistent injustice - for us to figure out that the old rules don't fit."
WORKERS' COMPENSATION

Workers' compensation is intended to protect labor and management.

The deal is employers pay for injured workers' medical treatment, partial wages, disabilities and deaths, and employees can't sue if they get hurt.

Every state requires such benefits, except Texas, which last year passed California to lead the country in workplace deaths of Hispanics. Workers comp is optional in Texas, but companies must cover all employees - legal and illegal - if they opt for the insurance.

While some states exempt tiny businesses and certain agricultural and domestic workers, almost all other workers are promised protection.

But employers have incentives to cover up injuries. Accidents drive up insurance costs and can attract investigators. And intimidation tactics work best against employees who speak little English, don't know their rights and fear the threat of deportation.

"They are terrified of getting fired or being deported," said Nan Lashuay, an assistant clinical professor and occupational health expert at the University of California, San Francisco. "There's a lot of pressure. Some of them have families who are literally on the verge of starvation. ... You can make here in a day what you make in a week in Mexico. And if you're deported, it can be extremely difficult to get back into the U.S."

Examples of abuse are widespread.

# In Boston, when a Brazilian restaurant worker stabbed his hand with a knife, his supervisor, acting as translator, told doctors the injury happened at home, legal advocates said.

# At a Mississippi poultry plant, bosses questioned the immigration status - then fired - an undocumented employee after he sought medical treatment for injuries to both arms, according to the worker and his case manager.

# In Florida, a 15-year-old Guatemalan boy picking peppers was run over by a truck in the field, then dumped at a hospital 25 miles away with no name or contact information for his employer.

It's not unusual for bosses, known to workers only by nicknames and cell phone numbers, to abandon injured workers in unfamiliar areas without fear of reprisals.

"It's an ugly secret, and it's going on nationwide," said Texas lawyer Richard Pena, the chairman of the American Bar Association's immigration committee. "The employers and insurance companies profit ... (while) immigrant workers often go back to their home countries broken and in pain."

Insurers say they don't track how many illegal workers file for injury benefits or how many workers' families seek payment for deaths on the job. Most American companies take care of injured workers, employers say. They understand that the best way to keep productivity up and insurance premiums down is to run safe, responsible workplaces.

When someone is hurt, insurers say, they generally pay the claims, and immigration status doesn't arise. When it does, they interpret state injury laws conservatively.

"Most accept that illegal aliens should be compensated. That doesn't mean everybody is necessarily enthusiastic about it," said Eric Oxfeld, a Washington, D.C., lobbyist for businesses.

If injuries aren't reported, he said, "it has little to do with the employer, and everything to do with the workers' fear that he might be sent home."

SOME COMPANIES DISAGREE
Some companies, however, continue to argue that undocumented workers shouldn't receive injury benefits.

Insurers may pay medical bills but refuse to cover workers' lost wages and retraining costs, arguing that the workers can't legally hold jobs and earn wages in the United States anyway.

"There are not across-the-board denials. My guess is that many thousands of illegal immigrants have been injured and treated through workers' comp," said Bob Hartwig, the chief economist for the Insurance Information Institute. "The problem is that many don't get to the door. ... Many of these people are intimidated in variety of ways by employers."

Some companies - particularly in competitive and dangerous industries - seek to gain an edge by hiring illegal workers and then cheating them on pay and injury benefits.

"It's a toxic cocktail," said insurance analyst Rousmaniere. "You have employers who have great incentive to cheat workers, and you have large numbers of illegal workers who will accept lower labor standards. It's causing our safety standards to erode - and that hurts legal workers, too."

One employers' trick is to go without workers' comp insurance.

Investigators say that kind of fraud is far more common than the much-publicized cases of workers who fake injuries. Offenders typically are small companies in high-risk pursuits, in which annual insurance premiums can cost 50 percent or more of a company's payroll. On average, companies pay about 1 percent of payroll toward premiums.

Employers also lie on payroll records - understating their size and job risks - to keep insurance costs down, which can leave workers without injury coverage.

Then there are more subtle tactics, such as the treatment an undocumented immigrant from South America got at a Mississippi poultry plant.

The worker slipped on a floor slick with chicken fat and landed hard, suffering two fractures in his back and a spinal dislocation.

The company-recommended doctor found no injury in his X-rays and cleared him to return to work, according to the worker and his legal advocates. He spent time sitting in a break room, too pained to work but prohibited from going home during work hours so the company wouldn't have to report the injury.

As the pain in the worker's leg grew, an orthopedic specialist finally examined the earlier X-rays and found the fractures, which required surgery.

"I can't work as I did before. I'm going to have pain for all my life," said the father of five, who asked not to be identified for fear of being fired.

He walks with a limp now. He gave up his $500-a-week job cutting bones from chicken thighs because he can't stand up for long periods. But he still works at the poultry plant, where he now makes $300 a week mopping floors.

"When you're cutting up chickens and working on a line where speed is everything, workers get cuts, broken fingers, repetitive motion injuries, or they get their hands caught in machines," said Anita Grabowski, who coordinates the Mississippi Poultry Workers Center near Jackson, Miss., which gets a steady flow of immigrant workers injured in area plants.

"They may see a company doctor or nurse, but many times they're given an aspirin or some cream and sent right back to the line that day. Their injuries are never reported, and they don't get the treatment they need," she said.

It was the insurance company, not the boss, that blocked benefits for Jose Hernandez. Adjusters for Florida Citrus, Business & Industries Fund began digging into his background on the day he lost his leg to the helicopter blade.

They quizzed his employer, Linda Rojas.

What's his history?

What kind of employee was he?

What documents had he provided when he was hired?

"They kind of hounded me to say things about him that weren't up to par," Rojas recalled. But "I wasn't going to say anything bad. ... He was an excellent employee."

Within a week, adjusters phoned Rojas with a decision: "We feel like he's an illegal alien, and we're going to use that to deny his claim," Rojas remembers the agent saying.

She didn't argue.

Rojas said she had mixed feelings. Hernandez deserved compensation because he was maimed for life, but she wasn't sure that an illegal worker should be entitled to benefits. So she left things to her insurer.

Florida Citrus declined to discuss the case, but in its denial, the insurer charged that Hernandez violated state law by making "false" or "fraudulent" statements about his identity.

When Rojas hired him, Hernandez presented a Social Security card he bought in North Carolina. He'd picked strawberries there, and before that, he'd planted shrubs in Kansas City, cut pines in Washington state and picked grapes in California, living and working in the United States periodically for more than a decade.

"The `false' statements Jose Hernandez made to get a job have nothing to do with his injury," said lawyer Rosenthal, of West Palm Beach. "This man was almost killed working for an American company. Isn't it right to compensate him?"

Florida Citrus settled the case for an undisclosed amount, but Hernandez remains in the Florida nursing home getting treatment, waiting to return to Mexico. His girls are 3 and 6 now, the boys 10 and 12. He hasn't seen them in three years.

"The important thing is that some money is there to take care of us," said Hernandez, 36. "I can't walk, but I'll keep trying to go forward. Thank God it didn't get my arm - with my hands I can do anything."

Rojas said she wasn't surprised when her insurer "dropped us like a hot rock" after Hernandez's injury. She paid double for a new policy and expects a price increase again this year.

She's not sure whether her company, Rojas Brothers Grove Service, can afford to stay open or can continue to find workers willing to wade into swamps to chop trees.

"Not everybody wants to do this kind of work," she said. "They're going into swampy areas where you've got snakes and alligators. ... It's rough work."

http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/15527454.htm

Stephen Colbert had the answer. Big a huge wall on the souther border, a huge wall on the northern border, huge walls up the coast, and then a huge dome over the top. Alaska and Hawaii are on their own.

To my knowledge, there are no Mexican slaves in America so who exactely is being exploited?

in addition to the fact that exploitation ≠ slavery, there is a fairly regular stream of cases where undocumented workers that have been literally enslaved are freed (and then deported).

In light of certain people taking offense at calling The Blessed Chris's post "The Nazi solution," I am now going to rephrase my response to make it not nearly so offensive to those who may be Nazis.



Find them, execute a few arbitrarily to make a point, then deport the rest. As for where to, wherever I can bloody send them.

This is most certainly not in any way similar to Pre- and War-Time Germany of the 30s or 40s.

For example, Nazi Germany did not execute a "few" arbitrarily, they exected millions, arbitarily.

Another crucial distinction that needs to be made, lest I offend someone with a wholly inapt and irrelevant comparison, is that while Nazi Germany targeted Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, Slavs and others, The Blessed Chris's proposal would only target Hispanics immigrants.

Yet another difference, and one which truly shows how inappropriate my comparison was (and how sorry I am for having so crudely and offensively made it), is that Nazi Germany *first* deported, *then* arbitarily executed. Unlike with the completely different (and in every way morally superior) plan by The Blessed Chris, which involved *first* arbitrary execution, *then* deportation.

In conclusion, I can only apologize and suggest that while my mistaken imagination was able to draw lines between what the Blessed Chris was saying and what Nazi Germany did, upon later careful reflection and analysis that was proven to be utterly untrue. In fact, they are nothing alike, and I heartily apologize both to the Blessed Chris, and to any Nazis here who may have been unduly offended by my gross insensitivity.

Seems like a lot of [otherwise] reasonable people have major, major psychological issues about illegal immigrants. So what's your solution to this horrific problem?

I have a problem with how awful people make "illegals" out to be. Sure the nazis might say it's "genocide against whites," but they're retarded and that's to be expected. It's surprising and dismaying to me to see immigration referred to as an "invasion" by affluent americans who have never been in a country that's being invaded. The paranoia and xenophobia is alarming.

On another forum I post at, one guy kept going on about how eager he was to shoot an illegal immigrant if he caught one on his property. About how ohnoes, all illegal immigrants:

1) Produce millions of dollars of trash
2) Slaughter livestock!
3) Rape and kill!
4) Smuggle EVIL drugs!
5) Are lazy!
6) Steal our jobs!
7) Ruin the nation!

And yet another guy, who I always used to think was reasonable, was going on about how he wanted to beat up a "fucking wetback" for hitting his car. Jesus.

Anyway, my solution is fairly simple minded: Make legal immigration easier. Remove some of those 98+ forms that one needs. Remove the fees for immigration. Stop treating immigrants (no matter where they're from) as if they're terrorists.

But I expect to hear a lot of plans about barbed wire and tanks. Let's hear em.

Yes, let's here 'em and maybe have them published if you like (http://www.csmonitor.com/specials/immigration/#yourviews) ;)

in addition to the fact that exploitation ≠ slavery, there is a fairly regular stream of cases where undocumented workers that have been literally enslaved are freed (and then deported).

And we should note that while some immigrate and work willingly at first, they change their opinion after being abused. So to say that illegal immigrants cant be abused because they wanted it is similar to claim that a wife can not be abused because she said yes at first. Among other issues. The thing that is fascinating is that people who are FOR all this shit (lax border rules, lax controls on employers, etc...) claims a moral superiority. That's just funny.

3 pronged approch:

1. Make legal immigration into the US eaiser; remove the lotteries, the visa numbers, the quotas, the outragous fees, and the tangled red tape. I want to go back to the old system. If you're healthy, not a ciminal, want to come in, and can get here, welcome to the US. This will cut the flow in half because most illegals in the US aren't border runners, they come in on legit visas and overstay.

2. Ala Nazz, make it actually hurt to hire illegals for US companies. If the jobs aren't here, they won't be coming. If you enforce the laws and make sure that people are being paid the minimum wage (at least), there will be less jobs willing to take the risk and more people coming in legally due to idea 1.

3. Start investing in South American countries like Mexico. If we can improve the situation South of the Border to where people aren't starving or trying to find someway to make sure their family survives, chances are they won't be trying to come in because of idea 2 means that there are less jobs for them to come in on, and idea 1 means it would be easier to come in legally (and they'd be able to do so).

Alas, I know that this is never gonna happen.

I would agree with this statement entirely. I found a great article somewhere (I can't remember where) about wage protections, as well, and how they'll actually curb companies hiring illegals, but I can't remember the article (I did a policy research paper on this subject for my AP Gov class, so when I get it back, I'll get the link from the bibliography)

Also, I think a new Operation Wetback (named such before it was 'derogatory') needs to be implemented. Where's General Joseph Swing when we need him? :P

But, other than that, I agree with NERVUN (zomg, UNIVERSE ESPLODEZ!), especially on point three (except for the fact Mexico is, in fact, a NORTH American nation ;) ). But, more than invest, promote reform. Mexico doesn't have the prettiest of governments, and I think if the US promoted reform, as well as investment, then the Latin American nations would be quite swell.

And, maybe, we'd have a place other than China to outsource. ;)

Exploitation? Did you forget that illeagal immigrants are working in the U.S. because they want to? To my knowledge, there are no Mexican slaves in America so who exactely is being exploited? This seems like a win-win situation for the immigrants and the farmers. Only the income-tax-payers are losing here becuse they are paying for the immigrants school and hospital bills.Go look at the unsafe working conditions in both the farms and the meat processing plants that hire huge numbers of undocumented workers and then tell them to go fuck themselves when they get hurt because the company will fire them, call DHS and have them deported rather than pay Worker's Comp. That's exploitation, no matter how you try to dress it up in "right to work" bullshit.

My plan? To not let my bunghole get so tight over this issue that that it sucks up all my intellectual capacity, like conservatives do.

Exploitation? Did you forget that illeagal immigrants are working in the U.S. because they want to? To my knowledge, there are no Mexican slaves in America so who exactely is being exploited? This seems like a win-win situation for the immigrants and the farmers. Only the income-tax-payers are losing here becuse they are paying for the immigrants school and hospital bills.

there was a program on PBS (Public Broadcasting Service) where they documented several mexicans who were 'lured' by a promise of good pay to work in America. they were snuck across the border and were housed in low rent districts. they were moved from one place to another (some went as far as Florida, and Tennessee) and treated like cattle. they didn't have any life outside of work and hiding. The pay was below minimum wage and the "handlers" got a huge chunk of that.

granted it's not slavery, but it's damn close enough.

Here to correct your facts.
Immigrants DO NOT pay taxes for 7 years.
Fact verified by a tax professional and several legal immigrants.

So while us natives are taxed from day one,legal immigrants are given a pass,a leg up so to speak.
Presumably so they can buy up all the convienence stores and Dunkin Donuts and other franchises.
Bullshit. Not only was my wife (Japanese) taxed from the moment she stepped foot in the US as a student, she has to pay US taxes right now (even though she's returned to Japan) so she'll have the record when she immigrates to the US. Your tax pros aren't all that professional if they don't know this. The US taxes EVERYONE no matter where they are from, or where they are.

http://www.snopes.com/business/taxes/immigrants.asp

Stephen Colbert had the answer. Big a huge wall on the souther border, a huge wall on the northern border, huge walls up the coast, and then a huge dome over the top. Alaska and Hawaii are on their own.

Heh yeah and add a ceiling, then none of ya can get out!

Slight problem. You approach the issue from the intention to allow illegal immigrants to remain in the country, whereas I want them gone. As soon as possible.

In any case, it's hardly nonsense, its a valid semantic point; why allow illegal immigrants to remain in a country and use the term illegal immigrants, since one then renders all immigrants legal, hence removing any effective border control.

Why make immigration illegeal in the first place?

You argued execution not for any specific crime, not with a trial, but simply to serve as a "warning" illegal immigrants.

Nazi solutions do work yes. They're also Nazi solutions. But that's only a problem for us non-nazis. Maybe you could deport or kill us too.


Nonsense. Naturalization i a means of changing an "illegals" status to legal, thus solving that problem without the need for sending leaky ships into the sea to go wander around lost poor dying and huddled.

Again, this "deport lots of people" nonsense is the nazi solution to the Jewish problem as well.

Slight problem. You approach the issue from the intention to allow illegal immigrants to remain in the country, whereas I want them gone. As soon as possible.

In any case, it's hardly nonsense, its a valid semantic point; why allow illegal immigrants to remain in a country and use the term illegal immigrants, since one then renders all immigrants legal, hence removing any effective border control.

no, Iraq doesn't send illegal immigrants into the US and show extreme disrespect to the Americans that live there.

The US soldiers illegally emigrated into Iraq, so, according to Chris, they should be (as they are) killed for it.

Slight problem. You approach the issue from the intention to allow illegal immigrants to remain in the country, whereas I want them killed. As soon as possible.

Fixed. You can't advocate the nazi solution without getting some of that blood on your hands.

Stephen Colbert had the answer. Big a huge wall on the souther border, a huge wall on the northern border, huge walls up the coast, and then a huge dome over the top. Alaska and Hawaii are on their own.

Hawaii has always been alone. in the middle of the water... isolated... :(

This discussion is irrelevant. Easy and hard are subjective concepts. Let's just look at the facts.

1) Immigrating to Canada is easier RELATIVE tTO other countries since we are one of the countries with the highest immigration rate per capita. Nonetheless, it is entirely relevant to look at the fact that immigration to Canada is CONSIDERABLY more difficult than it has been in the past, and that many of the changes are perpetrating massive injustices in the name of 'security'. You see, we like to diss the US, and talk about how paranoid and xenophobic they've become since 911. But we don't like to look at how our own xenophobia has been laid out in crisp, discriminatory legislation and practices, including a massive overhaul of the Immigration Act in the wake of the 911 attacks. Knee-jerk reactions, glossed over by typical Canadian nonchalance.

2) Open borders is a silly argument to make. If borders are open and everyone is let in, chaos may follow which may destabilize the economy. If our economy worsens, that'd be bad for both us AND the immigrants themselves, since they are comming here mostly due to economic prospects. So immigration must be regulated in a way that is beneficial to our economy. The number one critique of the immigration process on the right is actually not security...but economics. And it is pointed out that immigrants are required to have a certain level of education and training to really be eligible for entry...but that there is no reliable certification process in place to ensure that their accreditation in their country can be evaluated on Canadian terms. So while we face a shortage of health-care professionals, and allow foreign health-care professionals to immigrate...we end up denying them the ability to practice in our country, and essentially do ourselves NO good. This is hardly the most economically efficient model.

3) People should abide by rules.

That means all illegal immigrants, if they arent legitimate refugees, should be deported.Yes yes, people should abide by rules. And we should fight to ensure those rules actually make sense, and benefit the country as a whole. We should not allow the rules to be made by fear-mongers and bigots.

Anecdotes from recent work with immigration:

1) University professor from Croatia...one of the most practiced forensic anthropologists we could find. She was given three years of tenure, and this information was forwarded to Immigration in order to show that she would remain employed, and gainfully so. Nonetheless, her visa extension was denied, (by the way, they don't have to give you a reason, and none is given here) and she is facing deportation. She has been denied a chance to appear before a review board.

Explain to me how that is economically efficient? Or just in any sense of the word?

2) A couple marry in Chile. The woman becomes pregnant, and returns to Canada where she has citizenship, while the husband ties up loose ends at work and arranges to join her on a visa. In Canada, he applies for residency. The child is born, and over a year and a half after his application is begun, he is deported...separated from his family, to begin the process all over again from Chile. The reason? He was given the wrong information at the Citizenship and Immigration office about visa renewal...they even concede this fact...but despite this error on their part, they refuse to budge. He is forced to stay in Chile for another full year while the application process slogs on once again.

Boy, too bad he didn't follow the rules, that officers of Citizenship and Immigration themselves do not seem to be clear on. Bad man! Bad illegal immigrant.

3) A woman from the Philippines has been working as a live-in caregiver in Canada for seven years, separated from her children, husband, and extended family who remain in the Philippines. Because under this program you must have at least two years under contract within a three year period in order to be eligible for a residency application, many shady employers ensure that these women simply do not fulfill this criteria. In this woman's case, the trickery was subtle. She came in on a work visa, and worked for a family through an agency for one week under two years. Then her contract expired. She was put on a part time contract which was enough to keep her eligible for her work visa, but did not count as a full contract in the sense of the eligibility for residence application. This went on for a number of months, and she had to actually exit Canada, reapply for a new work visa, and return to that part-time contract. At one point her work visa lapsed again because of the part time nature of her contract, but the agency then popped up before she was deported and granted her another full time contract. And repeat. She is still unable to apply for residency, and if she leaves the country to visit family, she will not be let back in without going through a lengthy re-application process for another work visa.

She is not a resident, and she can not appeal this treatment.

But it LOOKS so easy to get residency, doesn't it?

It is not at all as simplistic as your understanding of the situation so clearly is.

You also mention 'legitimate refugees'. Well, let me remind you once again. The amount of refugees we are letting in is at a 20 year low. Is that because suddenly, the refugees we get aren't legitimate? Hardly. We've just made the process even harder because we're scared. Sorry...that woman from Somalia who doesn't want to go back to have her clit cut off? Too bad...she might be a terrorist.

Slight problem. You approach the issue from the intention to allow illegal immigrants to remain in the country, whereas I want them gone. As soon as possible.

Wait, what's the problem? You want illegal immigrants gone. So did the German people want the Jews gone. Was this supposed some sort of rebuttal about how naziesque your solution was?

If there's anything prejudiced in here, it's in that bolded line. I've said absolutely nothing about the illegal immigrants as individuals other than that I want to make them legal and keep them from being exploited. How the hell that makes me prejudiced against them is beyond my comprehension.

And a tight labor market does not excuse exploitation. If we need more laborers in the US, then we need to make sure they're protected. And if that means we have to pay more for our food, so be it. I'd rather pay more and know that the guy who picked it isn't being abused.

I did not say you were prejudiced against illegals, I said you were prejudiced against employers by saying that everyone who employs illegals "fucks them over". There certainly are cases of employers exploiting workers, but it is highly prejudicial and wholly inaccurate to say that all employers behave like these few disreputable people.

I never said a tight labor market excuses exploitation - it does not.
A tight labor market excuses hiring illegals because you cannot get legal workers. Hiring someone does not equate to exploitation.

I did not say you were prejudiced against illegals, I said you were prejudiced against employers by saying that everyone who employs illegals "fucks them over". There certainly are cases of employers exploiting workers, but it is highly prejudicial and wholly inaccurate to say that all employers behave like these few disreputable people.I never said that all employers behave that way--I was talking only about those companies that go out of their way to hire illegals, and migrant workers are generally not illegal.

I never said a tight labor market excuses exploitation - it does not.
A tight labor market excuses hiring illegals because you cannot get legal workers. Hiring someone does not equate to exploitation.
It doesn't excuse hiring illegals. A tight labor market means you have to raise your wages enough so that people will want to work for you. Hiring people because they can't complain if you fuck them over is exploitation, and that's the biggest reason people hire illegals.

On another forum I post at, one guy kept going on about how eager he was to shoot an illegal immigrant if he caught one on his property. About how ohnoes, all illegal immigrants:

1) Produce millions of dollars of trash
2) Slaughter livestock!
3) Rape and kill!
4) Smuggle EVIL drugs!
5) Are lazy!
6) Steal our jobs!
7) Ruin the nation!

Quoted for lolz.

It doesn't excuse hiring illegals. A tight labor market means you have to raise your wages enough so that people will want to work for you. Hiring people because they can't complain if you fuck them over is exploitation, and that's the biggest reason people hire illegals.

Which is why we need wage protection laws, and more. After all, if there's no financial benefit to hiring an illegal over a legal immigrant or US citizen, why do it?

Which is why we need wage protection laws, and more. After all, if there's no financial benefit to hiring an illegal over a legal immigrant or US citizen, why do it?

I absolutly never understood this argument from a logical stance. I've heard it before, the idea of "if we make employers pay illegal aliens the same wage as others there would be no incentive to hire illegal aliens"

Well yes, sorta, in theory. Except the point is, they're not supposed to be hiring illegal aliens ANYWAY. The point about them is that they're undocumented, they don't exist in databases. The government doesn't know where they are. how in the WORLD do you enforce this?

How the hell are we going to enforce a law that says you have to pay the aliens we don't know about a minimum wage. I mean, sure, you can tell them to pay illegal aliens at least minimum wage, but the whole point about illegal alien employees is we don't know where they're working, because they're undocumented, so we can't tell if they're paid minimum wage or not because we don't know who or where they are. All this will do is cause employers to break 2 laws instead of 1.

Which is why we need wage protection laws, and more. After all, if there's no financial benefit to hiring an illegal over a legal immigrant or US citizen, why do it?
I absolutly never understood this argument from a logical stance. I've heard it before, the idea of "if we make employers pay illegal aliens the same wage as others there would be no incentive to hire illegal aliens"

Well yes, sorta, in theory. Except the point is, they're not supposed to be hiring illegal aliens ANYWAY. The point about them is that they're undocumented, they don't exist in databases. The government doesn't know where they are. how in the WORLD do you enforce this?

How the hell are we going to enforce a law that says you have to pay the aliens we don't know about a minimum wage. I mean, sure, you can tell them to pay illegal aliens at least minimum wage, but the whole point about illegal alien employees is we don't know where they're working, because they're undocumented, so we can't tell if they're paid minimum wage or not because we don't know who or where they are. All this will do is cause employers to break 2 laws instead of 1.*Nods*

add to that, the wages isn't the only thing employers are skimping on. most illegals are paid in cash. thus the employers don't pay the federal/state taxes for that illegal. also, most illegals don't get benefits: health, dental, insurance, etc... thus that's more money the employers save on. so raising the wages so that Illegals are paid just as much as legal workers doesn't mean it's not cheaper to hire illegals since the savings are not JUST in the wages.

*Nods*

add to that, the wages isn't the only thing employers are skimping on. most illegals are paid in cash. thus the employers don't pay the federal/state taxes for that illegal. also, most illegals don't get benefits: health, dental, insurance, etc... thus that's more money the employers save on. so raising the wages so that Illegals are paid just as much as legal workers doesn't mean it's not cheaper to hire illegals since the savings are not JUST in the wages.

Come to think of it, I that's actually an argument about that stuff if there's a Guest Worker Programme. So, that's probably my fault for playing the wrong card. :(

In a GWP, they'd (well, theoretically, anyways) all be documented, so you'd have all that stuff.

But yeah, I misinterpreted the posts. My fault. :p
________________________________

As for actual illegal immigration, though, the only way you'll probably solve it is to invest and encourage investment in Latin America, and pull off another Operation: Wetback.

Want my solution? Limit the numners coming over here. And keep the paper work the way it is, how else are we to make sure they dont threaten our lives up here? Fact of the matter is, many people who are citizens are now fighting to get jobs that the illegals are coming up here for, whether that is agriculture to urban jobs like factory and what not.

I am not against immagration, i am for organized and respectable ones that wish to come here legally.

I also think we should punish strictly those companies that do hire illegals pruposely and neglectly too without checking their backgrounds to see if they are citizens.

Want my solution? Limit the numners coming over here. And keep the paper work the way it is, how else are we to make sure they dont threaten our lives up here? Fact of the matter is, many people who are citizens are now fighting to get jobs that the illegals are coming up here for, whether that is agriculture to urban jobs like factory and what not.

I am not against immagration, i am for organized and respectable ones that wish to come here legally.

I also think we should punish strictly those companies that do hire illegals pruposely and neglectly too without checking their backgrounds to see if they are citizens.

So you favor implementing a bad law more strictly. Okay.

Too lazy to read past the first page.

I'm going to go with: Abolish the term "Illegal". Let anyone and everyone go wherever the hell they want. Whose great idea was it to make invisible lines and say, "You can't cross here! So nyah-nyah!"

Solution # 43-AZ

1) Round up all of the illegal immigrants in Arizona and Oklahoma
2) Steal their pets
3) Send the pets to Kansas
4) Feed the animals lots and lots of corn
5) Send the bloated animals to Africa
World hunger is solved

Put 'em in the military. Tell them, hey, if you join the army, serve your four years and all, you'll get complete citizenship, yada yada yada. It's a win-win situation. The Mexicans automatically get work, and our army grows and grows and keeps growing (so we can kick the rest of the world around, naturally). That's just how I'd do it though.;)

Too lazy to read past the first page.

I'm going to go with: Abolish the term "Illegal". Let anyone and everyone go wherever the hell they want. Whose great idea was it to make invisible lines and say, "You can't cross here! So nyah-nyah!"
*goes over to Grainne's house and sets up a tent on her front lawn.*
No lines right? can go wherever I want right? :p

*goes over to Grainne's house and sets up a tent on her front lawn.*
No lines right? can go wherever I want right? :p

Did I mention the "Shooting Whoever I Want" mindframe?

Actually, if you were to set up a tent on my front lawn, I would simply have to warn you to avoid the dog mines. And occasionaly ask you to wash my car. Unclog the toilet once in a while.

So what's your solution to this horrific problem?Simple. Give them tanks and have them carry out industrialized genocide on the natives. It's how it's always been done.

Well, one thing that may help 'solve' an immigration problem is to stop screwing up areas where many people are fleeing from in the first place.

Between 1990 and 2000, 765,000 people came to the US from El Salvador (US Census Data on Wiki). And throughout the 1980's- the US was sponsoring violent death squads. Proportionally, most of Central America has among the highest rate of immigration.

I think if the US had fairer trade policies- or at least sponsored less violent coups- fewer people would feel forced to leave their homes to come to the United States.

It won't do THAT much for US immigration- but it'll change a little bit.

Want my solution? Limit the numners coming over here. And keep the paper work the way it is, how else are we to make sure they dont threaten our lives up here?
Try going through it sometime. It's a bureaucratic monster that does less than nothing.

Abolish the minimum wage. Just because the immigrants are willing to do work for less than you, doesn't mean you have the right to bitch about it. That's called economics. Don't like it? Too bad.

People don't deserve $6.00/hr to work at McDonalds.

Fact of the matter is, many people who are citizens are now fighting to get jobs that the illegals are coming up here for

jobs are static in number?
wage labor is the only possible economic system?

Slight problem. You approach the issue from the intention to allow illegal immigrants to remain in the country, whereas I want them gone. As soon as possible.

now now, don't be coy. the status of their paperwork doesn't matter to you.

There are no 'jobs Americans won't do'

There are only 'jobs employers do not want to pay an American minimum wage for'

And why should they? Thanks to their friends in politics they can get away with hiring illegals and paying them pittance. Nothing is done about it.

The higher the minimum wage, the more attractive it gets to hire illegals and screw Americans over.

People don't deserve $6.00/hr to work at McDonalds.

why not? it's work and people want it done, therefore it ought to be a viable way of making a living.

why not? it's work and people want it done, therefore it ought to be a viable way of making a living.

If it costs more to hire people, the product will also end up costing the consumer more.

'jobs Americans won't do'

there is also a job the government wont do: throwing illegals out

maybe the people ought to do this job the government wont do

good

And thus it triggers inflation. Higher wages result in more expensive products and services which in turn results in demands for higher wages etc...

And the higher the minimum wage, the more attractive to hire people 'outside the official channels'

If it costs more to hire people, the product will also end up costing the consumer more.

good

land mines

And the higher the minimum wage, the more attractive to hire people 'outside the official channels'

people 'outside the official channels' only exist because of the plainly unjust system in place that restricts their free movement and intentionally is set up to benefit the plutocrats.

"The earth is but one country and mankind it's citzens."

Well, round these parts the government seems to think the solution is to send text messages. I need to find that wonky-eyed smiley to express my feelings about that.

But in reality, the only true solution is to make yourself so shit-poor nobody wants to come. Where there's meat there's flies. Assuming we're talking about America, though, a combination of deportation and some kind of very tightly controlled guest-worker program on the farms sounds good.

"The earth is but one country and mankind it's citzens." I just want to move to Mars for a better life!

"The earth is but one country and mankind it's citzens."

My my my, now wouldnt it be nice if that were true. :rolleyes:

Before enacting that piece of magical legislation, I think though that it would be better to eradicate hunger by declaring "People don't need to eat, they can live on air alone."

I got it!

A new simplified Immigration Policy.

We'll allow 5000 people in every year.

but we'll do it by Lottery.

thus anyone who wants to become a US citizen buys one lotto ticket for a price of 1 USD at any US Embassy.

No refunds.


man, the proceeds alone may end the national debt in a couple of years.

:D

Set up US Army recruiting stations in Mexican border towns. Offer instant residency to anyone who signs up and their immediate family, with citizenship coming either after:
1 year service
Honorable discharge
Death of service member

There are no 'jobs Americans won't do'
There are only 'jobs employers do not want to pay an American minimum wage for'

And why should they? Thanks to their friends in politics they can get away with hiring illegals and paying them pittance. Nothing is done about it.

The higher the minimum wage, the more attractive it gets to hire illegals and screw Americans over.

There are plenty of jobs that you cannot get people to work. Farming is one of those industries which has a serious lack of labor. Most farmers I know pay well above minimum wage for labor and still have to hire illegals to work the farm. Same with working in kitchens, and housekeeping, landscaping, construction, and many other industries.

Illegals do not all make negligible wages.

Two basic (and most common) ways illegals get jobs:
1) use a fake social security number. They pretend to be here legally and the employer takes them at their word. They get the exact same wages as anyone else - even have all the various payroll taxes taken out.

Of course this makes it absurdly easy to track them down - when you have the same social security number working one job in Boston and a couple dozen jobs in Flagstaff, it should be pretty easy to figure out. Since the government is getting millions in contributions they will never have to payout, the Social Security Admin keeps its mouth shut.

Workers are not being 'exploited' because the employer treats them exactly like anyone else. Most of the time the employer is not even aware of it. Those that might be worried about it might be too desperate for staff to look too closely.

2) Paid in cash - no questions asked. Illegals are just paid cash for whatever job they do. Ironically, this actually tends to mean they get more take-home income than legal workers (because they dont pay payroll taxes). The illegal worker can make more money than the legal worker and the employer still ends up paying significantly less for the labor.

'Employers' are not some completely different species who rejoices in 'screwing-over' other people. Employers are real people just like you.

What are they supposed to do when they offer $12/hr (which really costs them closer to $16 depending on the locality and industry) and still cannot get anyone to take the job? If they offer any more they end up going bankrupt.

What are they supposed to do? They can occasionally get some really horrid worker who is more trouble than they are worth; showing up late if at all, completely unreliable, doesnt actually do anything productive, and has a bad attitude being rude to coworkers and customers alike. The alternative is to hire this latino who is hard working, very reliable, shows up on time, is nice to customers, gets their work done, but you just cant look too closely at their paperwork.

This is the kind of decision employers have to make on a constant basis.

Set up US Army recruiting stations in Mexican border towns. Offer instant residency to anyone who signs up and their immediate family, with citizenship coming either after:
1 year service
Honorable discharge
Death of service member

Thats a really good idea! but 1 year of service is too short. The French foreign legion requires 4 years I think.

land mines

Another very good idea. That would put unauthorized foot and vehicle traffic to a complete stop! Flling the remote desert of Texas with explosive traps along with properly maintained warning signs in spanish would be quite expensive. But it would be easier to maintain than electric fences or constant helicopter patrols. This idea has some potential imo.

Trust me, I'm not trying to sound smug (my country's in this war too), but if the $300,000,000,000 spent on the Iraq war was open for use elsewhere, it could easily be applied to solving the illegal immigration problem - if the political will existed, that is. Democrats like to soothe their ethnic minority voters and Republicans like to soothe their big business block, it seems.

So you favor implementing a bad law more strictly. Okay.

Bad how? How is a law that keeps the limit to a minimum and controls the situation that is already out of control BECAUSE so many want open borders bad? I would like to know this...

"The earth is but one country and mankind it's citzens."

Yes lets revert to a hippy world of peace and love...:rolleyes:

Try going through it sometime. It's a bureaucratic monster that does less than nothing.

Actually i know how it was and is. So by just stating this comment without reason shows your lack of knowledge. Plus you are only ASSuming what you think i dont know.

Yes lets revert to a hippy world of peace and love...:rolleyes:

Actually, yes - let's.

Bad how? How is a law that keeps the limit to a minimum and controls the situation that is already out of control BECAUSE so many want open borders bad? I would like to know this...
Bad in that it takes well over $2,000 and (on average) 7 years to get an immigration visa to the US, meaning that it is far, far out of range for the majority on the planet. Bad in that, even if you get married to a US citizen, it still costs thousands of dollars and takes over 6 months. Bad that the immigration laws are so tangled that to navigate them, you really do need an immigration lawyer, unless you like spending months shuffling from one office to another.

The system is unfair and a bloody mess of redtape.

Actually i know how it was and is. So by just stating this comment without reason shows your lack of knowledge. Plus you are only ASSuming what you think i dont know.
Oh? I'm in the middle of this monster right now. What's your story?

why should anyone person get special treatment?

They shouldn't.

No one (rightfully) is illegal. NO ONE.

There are plenty of jobs that you cannot get people to work. Farming is one of those industries which has a serious lack of labor. Most farmers I know pay well above minimum wage for labor and still have to hire illegals to work the farm. Same with working in kitchens, and housekeeping, landscaping, construction, and many other industries.[/QOUTE]

That is a lie. Since coming from a farming state, i know that is NOT true. Everyday i had friends and class mates families that had parents that went out to try to find ANY work, including what you stated. Guess what? More and more of it was given to ones that just came over the border that were given citizenship with a snap of the finger or was illegal.

[QUOTE=Entropic Creation;12439088]Illegals do not all make negligible wages.[/QOUTE]

You base this off of what?

[QUOTE=Entropic Creation;12439088]Two basic (and most common) ways illegals get jobs:
1) use a fake social security number. They pretend to be here legally and the employer takes them at their word. They get the exact same wages as anyone else - even have all the various payroll taxes taken out.

They shouldnt even be up here inthe first place. SO punish the busineses and the illegal. Sorry, we do have laws to get into this nation for a reason.

Of course this makes it absurdly easy to track them down - when you have the same social security number working one job in Boston and a couple dozen jobs in Flagstaff, it should be pretty easy to figure out. Since the government is getting millions in contributions they will never have to payout, the Social Security Admin keeps its mouth shut.

And i blame the shameless and cowards that let this go on.

Workers are not being 'exploited' because the employer treats them exactly like anyone else. Most of the time the employer is not even aware of it. Those that might be worried about it might be too desperate for staff to look too closely.

One reason why the average citizen might not take that same job is because society is telling them they deserve better even if it ruins the economy(IE wage raising and such).

2) Paid in cash - no questions asked. Illegals are just paid cash for whatever job they do. Ironically, this actually tends to mean they get more take-home income than legal workers (because they dont pay payroll taxes). The illegal worker can make more money than the legal worker and the employer still ends up paying significantly less for the labor.

Like i said we need to have better border security, punish those businesses and the illegals...send them back with a stern warning to come up legally.

'Employers' are not some completely different species who rejoices in 'screwing-over' other people. Employers are real people just like you.

That is very true. Then they should realize that if they hire illegals with no record at all of a history up here or not a citizen, they should be punished.

What are they supposed to do when they offer $12/hr (which really costs them closer to $16 depending on the locality and industry) and still cannot get anyone to take the job? If they offer any more they end up going bankrupt.

Or maybe the far left/Democrats and persons in this nation pushing for higher and higher wages on companies forcefully should be teaching responsibility in this nation instead of expecting to get more money? Hmmm?

What are they supposed to do? They can occasionally get some really horrid worker who is more trouble than they are worth; showing up late if at all, completely unreliable, doesnt actually do anything productive, and has a bad attitude being rude to coworkers and customers alike. The alternative is to hire this latino who is hard working, very reliable, shows up on time, is nice to customers, gets their work done, but you just cant look too closely at their paperwork.

Maybe the average worker who complains too much needs to shapen up and wake up to the fact that they should accepot what they get as a job, instead of complaining about wage and benifits and pushing companies around this nation into these situations?

This is the kind of decision employers have to make on a constant basis.


Ya those workers that have these tendancies(socialsit in nature in my opinion, but that is a different story)to think they should be handed off the mat from college a excellent job with a 14 dollar an hour job.....and they wonder why we have companies going to the illegals looking...

Oh? I'm in the middle of this monster right now. What's your story?

I have seen it and lived among it. Your point?

3 pronged approch:

1. Make legal immigration into the US eaiser; remove the lotteries, the visa numbers, the quotas, the outragous fees, and the tangled red tape. I want to go back to the old system. If you're healthy, not a ciminal, want to come in, and can get here, welcome to the US. This will cut the flow in half because most illegals in the US aren't border runners, they come in on legit visas and overstay.

2. Ala Nazz, make it actually hurt to hire illegals for US companies. If the jobs aren't here, they won't be coming. If you enforce the laws and make sure that people are being paid the minimum wage (at least), there will be less jobs willing to take the risk and more people coming in legally due to idea 1.

3. Start investing in South American countries like Mexico. If we can improve the situation South of the Border to where people aren't starving or trying to find someway to make sure their family survives, chances are they won't be trying to come in because of idea 2 means that there are less jobs for them to come in on, and idea 1 means it would be easier to come in legally (and they'd be able to do so).

It's simple. Make it easier to get here if they want to. Make it harder to find a job if they come in illegally. And make it better for them to stay home.

Alas, I know that this is never gonna happen.

This makes sense, but I don't want to "improve" other countries by sending them American jobs. That is hurting our economy.

But i DO like the idea of eliminating the red tape for legal immigration and penalizing companies if they hire illegals.

But you're right, ideas 1 and 2 will never happen because it wouldn't be politically correct (P-C). The P-C thing is:
1. To keep LEGAL immigration red-tapey and a hassle so as to encourage illegal immigration
2. Not to discourage companies from hiring illegals, but instead encourage them to hire them so that they will STAY in this country, encumbering our welfare and healthcare systems more than they already are, and so that the next US President can grant them all amnesty in order to get their votes.

I HATE political correctness. One day, if we let it, it will become the DEATH of our nation.

We should kick them all out and build walls around our borders, and put our troops there to guard them instead of having them way over in Iraq

Bad in that it takes well over $2,000 and (on average) 7 years to get an immigration visa to the US, meaning that it is far, far out of range for the majority on the planet. Bad in that, even if you get married to a US citizen, it still costs thousands of dollars and takes over 6 months. Bad that the immigration laws are so tangled that to navigate them, you really do need an immigration lawyer, unless you like spending months shuffling from one office to another.

The system is unfair and a bloody mess of redtape.

Life is never fair, its called living and fighting for it. Fact is thereis THOUSANDS that want to be here...why should anyone person get special treatment?

I have seen it and lived among it. Your point?
Oh, you've seen it and lived amoung it, but have you actually been through it. I'm saying I'm getting first hand knowledge about this process. If all you have is second hand hersey, then I would say my orginal point stands. Most people who talking about how wonderful the current system is have no idea what they are talking about.

Life is never fair, its called living and fighting for it. Fact is thereis THOUSANDS that want to be here...why should anyone person get special treatment?
True, why should YOU get to just be here because you were born in the US, right?

Oh, you've seen it and lived amoung it, but have you actually been through it. I'm saying I'm getting first hand knowledge about this process. If all you have is second hand hersey, then I would say my orginal point stands. Most people who talking about how wonderful the current system is have no idea what they are talking about.

Says who? Who said it was second hand? You only assume. Next time read the posts. Point is we have laws in this land and we follow by it, if you break one you get punished, the way it should be.

True, why should YOU get to just be here because you were born in the US, right?

Because my family too had to do it the proper way. Mostly eveyone in this nation are persons that came to this nation. Point is we have laws, follow them. Even if they are ugly and mean and painful. Point is, they are there for a reason.

Point is this is OUR nation and we can make the laws to get in legally. Point is these people are breaking laws and only hurting themselves by coming here illegally. I want immagration too, but i want order to it. So i say come here, but come here the correct way. And wait your turn, everyone else did before you.

Says who? Who said it was second hand? You only assume. Next time read the posts. Point is we have laws in this land and we follow by it, if you break one you get punished, the way it should be.
Then explain your knowledge of current immigration (Not my grandfather came over with the Irish). I'm reading your post and you're claiming you know about it so tell me how you know. Elsewise I'd say it's fair to assume you know nothing.

Patriotism isn't just about war. It can be (and mostly is). It can make people want to defend their homeland (From them damn dirty, job stealing Mexicans. And them evil muslims). It can also make people respect the principles that their country is founded on, like in the case of the US freedom of speech and religion (and making Christianity the national religion). It also motivates people to do inconvenient things, like vote or do volunteer work for the benefit of the nation.

Face it DCD, patriotism is a double edged sword, more often turned to bad than good.

Because my family too had to do it the proper way. Mostly eveyone in this nation are persons that came to this nation. Point is we have laws, follow them. Even if they are ugly and mean and painful. Point is, they are there for a reason.
Bullshit, most of those laws are not doing what they were designed for, and many are in place due to xenophobic reactions to whatever peril of the day was going on. BTW, most of the people who proudly state that their family came over properly mean that their grand or great-grandparents came over, back when immigration was a matter of signing their names in the book at Elis Island and getting a medical check-up, nothing like the convoluted process it is not.

Point is this is OUR nation and we can make the laws to get in legally. Point is these people are breaking laws and only hurting themselves by coming here illegally. I want immagration too, but i want order to it. So i say come here, but come here the correct way. And wait your turn, everyone else did before you.
Point is, the system is broke. It doesn't work. It cannot handle the amount of people coming in, it is designed to make sure that no one who is not from a developed country (or very rich) can make it in, it fails all tests of a system for a democratic and immigrant built country. It seriously NEEDS to be reformed.

Tell Mexico to get its shit together.

Earabia, everyone's family immigrated to America. Damn greezy Ities, and dirty mics. It was fine when we did it, but now it's baaaad because the people coming in are brown :eek:

Not to care.

We so openly accept Europeans (these days anyway) and Canadians into our country, but when someone dark skinned comes in it's: "OMFG AIDS AND OUR JOBS WITH TERRORISTS!!!!"


Too bad for you that those nasty white people come from rich nations and don't try to sneak in. FYI, a nice amount of those hispanics are white. Maybe you should look into why Canadians and Europeans don't sneak in and Mexicans and other Hispanics do.

Tell Mexico to get its shit together.

Earabia, everyone's family immigrated to America. Damn greezy Ities, and dirty mics. It was fine when we did it, but now it's baaaad because the people coming in are brown :eek:



That has nothing to do with it and accusing people who are against illegal immigration of racism won't help you.


It was a different time then, the USA can't support the worlds population anymore.


FYI, I am against illegal immigration and am brown skinned, there goes your racism against brown skinned people line.

Too bad for you that those nasty white people come from rich nations and don't try to sneak in. FYI, a nice amount of those hispanics are white. Maybe you should look into why Canadians and Europeans don't sneak in and Mexicans and other Hispanics do.
Given that Europe doesn't share a land border with the US and most are afluent enough to afford the outragious fees...

Ain't it odd that 6% of the US illegal population is Canadian or European in origin? 9% for Asians and 4% for Africans.

Gee, looks like some of them are sneaking in too.
http://pewhispanic.org/files/reports/44.pdf

Given that Europe doesn't share a land border with the US and most are afluent enough to afford the outragious fees...

Ain't it odd that 6% of the US illegal population is Canadian or European in origin? 9% for Asians and 4% for Africans.

Gee, looks like some of them are sneaking in too.
http://pewhispanic.org/files/reports/44.pdf


Nice job ignoring the 81% from south of the border.:rolleyes: Nice work ingoring that even THAT site says 80 to 85% of mexican migration to this country has been undocumented. Nice work not noticing that the numbers were for CANADA AND EUROPE COMBINED! And then as you didn't care to say the numbers were still a small 600k. Hispanics as this site says outnumbers all others 8.4 to 2 million...Which equals 10.4 million and the site claims 10.3....whaaa? Why say 10.3 when your numbers show 10.4? They seem to be off by 100k.


Well, nice try nervun but you fail. All you did was provide proof why illegal immigration from south of the border is a issue. I live in so cal not far from the border, and I can testify that there are hordes of people of hispanic origin standing on the sidewalks holding signs looking for work and selling flowers to passing cars, it wasn't like this 10 years ago. I will go based on my REAL LIFE and PERSONAL experiences rather than the views of some guy who 5,000 miles away.



BTW, I am still looking for all thos nasty canadians running around...I have a friend who lives near the canadian border...I expect to hear stories about all the canadians running across the border into his state. I won't hold my breath on that one.:D

Well, nice try nervun but you fail.
REALLY? YOU said: "Maybe you should look into why Canadians and Europeans don't sneak in and Mexicans and other Hispanics do." I showed that you're full of it and that, yes, they DO sneak in. I didn't fail, I just showed that you have no idea what you're talking about.

I will go based on my REAL LIFE and PERSONAL experiences rather than the views of some guy who 5,000 miles away.
I'm from Nevada, I've been in Japan for 2.7 years now. I believe I have some experience with illegal immigration. Nevada only has all those hotels and casinos after all.

BTW, I am still looking for all thos nasty canadians running around...I have a friend who lives near the canadian border...I expect to hear stories about all the canadians running across the border into his state. I won't hold my breath on that one.:D
Doesn't change the fact that there are Canadians sneaking across. Making gracious claims without backing them up is a great way to get yourself laughed out of the room.

Eh took Er Durbs!

REALLY? YOU said: "Maybe you should look into why Canadians and Europeans don't sneak in and Mexicans and other Hispanics do." I showed that you're full of it and that, yes, they DO sneak in. I didn't fail, I just showed that you have no idea what you're talking about.


Actually I do. Canadians don't sneak in. All that site said was undocumented, we have an open border with Canada..You do the math. Until then you fail.


I'm from Nevada, I've been in Japan for 2.7 years now. I believe I have some experience with illegal immigration. Nevada only has all those hotels and casinos after all.


Thats nice, I have been living in So Cal about 2 hours from the Mexician border for 17 years. Care to keep talking about experience?


Doesn't change the fact that there are Canadians sneaking across. Making gracious claims without backing them up is a great way to get yourself laughed out of the room.



The site was vague and didn't make a hint of how they got here. It said undocumented....Of course that means they were sneaking in. And as I said, its not a gracious claim, but me having a PERSONAL contact with both borders. I know it annoys you, but I have known him for 14 years and more inclined to believe him than you.


FYI, nice job ignoring all of my post and instead ranting. And I am going to get laughed out of the room? You still fail, mostly because your post proved nothing and was more...well you know the word....

Actually I do. You seem more than a tad clueless. Canadians don't sneak in. All that site said was undocumented, which if you had a clue would know that we have an open border with Canada..You do the math. Until then you fail.
Gee, does that mean you don't know how illegal immigration works? I think it does. Does that mean you're clueless on border crossings, I think it does.

Does that mean you're trying to move the goal posts and say that you didn't actually say what you said, yeah, I think it does.

Thats nice, I have been living in So Cal about 2 hours from the Mexician border for 17 years. Care to keep talking about experience?

25 years in Nevada, wanna keep talking?

I am laughing at you. The site was vague and didn't make a hint of how they got here. It said undocumented....Of course that means they were sneaking in. And as I said, its not a gracious claim, but me having a PERSONAL contact with both borders. I know it annoys you, but I have known him for 14 years and more inclined to believe him than you who would rather rant and rave.
You said that there were no illegals coming in from Canada and Europe, I just showed you there were. Keep trying, maybe you'll convince yourself.

FYI, nice job ignoring all of my post and instead ranting. And I am going to get laughed out of the room? You still fail, mostly because your post proved nothing and was more...well you know the word....
That you still try to deny what you have said, yeah, my posts have proved that.

Thats nice, I have been living in So Cal about 2 hours from the Mexician border for 17 years. Care to keep talking about experience?

I'm sorry how does this qualify you as a victim?

Is your eye sight somehow blemished from being forced to watch all these poor people scrounge for work? You better have been raped at one point by an illegal Mexican otherwise your experience is nothing more than stepping over the poor every other morning.

BTW I work in New Jersey in the largest Blueberry producing county in the world, my friend is an illegal who lives on the largest Blueberry farm in the world. I work installing Irrigation so I work with and around these folk who have migrated with their families state to state just trying to make a living. They are not bad people, they're just trying to live because to become a legal is so god damned frustrating it's near impossible.

Canadians don't have to sneak in 90% of their population is amassed within 10 miles of the united states.

I admire hard workers, I despise people like you who think America is "ours" and only ours. Didn't your momma ever teach you to share, or were you too busy trying not to be eaten like the rat you are?

BTW, I am still looking for all thos nasty canadians running around...I have a friend who lives near the canadian border...I expect to hear stories about all the canadians running across the border into his state. I won't hold my breath on that one.:D

i think you misunderstand what 'illegal immigration' is, and how it is done.

did you ever wonder why mexicans hire coyotes to sneak them through the deserts to get here, while if you wanted to go to canada or mexico you'd just drive there on a major highway? it's because of a manifestly racist difference in border policy. guess who needs to come up with $100 to apply for a visa just to cross the border at all?

Another very good idea. That would put unauthorized foot and vehicle traffic to a complete stop! Flling the remote desert of Texas with explosive traps along with properly maintained warning signs in spanish would be quite expensive. But it would be easier to maintain than electric fences or constant helicopter patrols. This idea has some potential imo.

Again, quite like the insurgents in Iraq are doing.

Then explain your knowledge of current immigration (Not my grandfather came over with the Irish). I'm reading your post and you're claiming you know about it so tell me how you know. Elsewise I'd say it's fair to assume you know nothing.

My knowledge is that when you apply for the for that citizenship, its no tthat difficult. The difficult part is waiting your turn to get the go ahead to remain here or come here. The fact that you ahve so many venues to come up here, as a student, as a worker and such. Point is, we dont want to make it so easy a person who has a record can get in here.

Bullshit, most of those laws are not doing what they were designed for, and many are in place due to xenophobic reactions to whatever peril of the day was going on. BTW, most of the people who proudly state that their family came over properly mean that their grand or great-grandparents came over, back when immigration was a matter of signing their names in the book at Elis Island and getting a medical check-up, nothing like the convoluted process it is not.

Doesnt matter, this is now, not a hundred years ago. Times have changed. Why dont you keep up with the now times huh? Point is the laws you are referring to are the ones of the 1930s and 1940s. Do you even realize that those laws have been changed? Didnt think so.


Point is, the system is broke. It doesn't work. It cannot handle the amount of people coming in, it is designed to make sure that no one who is not from a developed country (or very rich) can make it in, it fails all tests of a system for a democratic and immigrant built country. It seriously NEEDS to be reformed.

A lot of different systems have flaws, does that mean we get rid of it? No. Does that mean we should just open our borders to the flood gates? Hardly. Yes we are a immagration nation, but that does not mean we shouldnt have a system of laws and regulations to control that system of entry.

Gee, does that mean you don't know how illegal immigration works? I think it does. Does that mean you're clueless on border crossings, I think it does.

You keep showing your lack of knowledge of this subject. The point is we have a unnamed number of illegal immagrants crossing over when they shouldnt be.

Does that mean you're trying to move the goal posts and say that you didn't actually say what you said, yeah, I think it does.

What is your point?


25 years in Nevada, wanna keep talking?

Ooooh so what? Apparently you keep showing how blind you are to the facts...


You said that there were no illegals coming in from Canada and Europe, I just showed you there were. Keep trying, maybe you'll convince yourself.

that is one thing thathe got wrong, so you do admit that there is a problem and they are breaking the law?

I'm sorry how does this qualify you as a victim?

Is your eye sight somehow blemished from being forced to watch all these poor people scrounge for work? You better have been raped at one point by an illegal Mexican otherwise your experience is nothing more than stepping over the poor every other morning.

BTW I work in New Jersey in the largest Blueberry producing county in the world, my friend is an illegal who lives on the largest Blueberry farm in the world. I work installing Irrigation so I work with and around these folk who have migrated with their families state to state just trying to make a living. They are not bad people, they're just trying to live because to become a legal is so god damned frustrating it's near impossible.

Canadians don't have to sneak in 90% of their population is amassed within 10 miles of the united states.

I admire hard workers, I despise people like you who think America is "ours" and only ours. Didn't your momma ever teach you to share, or were you too busy trying not to be eaten like the rat you are?

I am sorry but i have also had the experience of working with illegals too from south of the border. Yes many of them had families and were overall nice people, but that still doesnt ignore the fact that they broke the law. Its not a matter of sharing Sir, its a matterof not breaking laws to get what you want, its like taking from teh more well off to support the poor who dont try. Sounds like if anyone is greedy its you.

Gee, does that mean you don't know how illegal immigration works? I think it does. Does that mean you're clueless on border crossings, I think it does.


This coming from a person who has yet to respond to me in an intelligent manner? Blantant flaming won't save you. I know more than you because I have SEEN border crossings.

Does that mean you're trying to move the goal posts and say that you didn't actually say what you said, yeah, I think it does.


I think you fail again. You took my comment out of context and attacked without asking for me to clear it up. Keep doing that.


25 years in Nevada, wanna keep talking?


Ever been near the border? Nevada doesn't even border mexico, California does. Oh and BTW, I have lived here for 17 years, I have lived in Cali for about 25 years now. Keep wasting breath.


You said that there were no illegals coming in from Canada and Europe, I just showed you there were. Keep trying, maybe you'll convince yourself.


Take my comment out context. I see people running across borders, digging holes, swimming across lakes.....etc. Learn the difference.

That you still try to deny what you have said, yeah, my posts have proved that.


Keep trying, maybe you'll convince yourself.

i think you misunderstand what 'illegal immigration' is, and how it is done.

did you ever wonder why mexicans hire coyotes to sneak them through the deserts to get here, while if you wanted to go to canada or mexico you'd just drive there on a major highway? it's because of a manifestly racist difference in border policy. guess who needs to come up with $100 to apply for a visa just to cross the border at all?


The difference is not racist, the reason is based on how poor mexico is and how rich canada is. It's stricter because the huge amounts of people trying to get in. If Mexico was rich we wouldn't need this, but it's not.


And there are non-white people in Canada.

I am sorry but i have also had the experience of working with illegals too from south of the border. Yes many of them had families and were overall nice people, but that still doesnt ignore the fact that they broke the law. Its not a matter of sharing Sir, its a matterof not breaking laws to get what you want, its like taking from teh more well off to support the poor who dont try. Sounds like if anyone is greedy its you.

Laws that are broken most frequently are laws that need to be rewritten.

The poor who don't try?

Taking from the more well off = bad?

Sorry but I can imagine where 300 billion dollars would help. No instead we gave it to the more well off while wagging a finger at the lazy poor. A rising tide lifts all boats, except the ones docked in New Orleans.

I'm greedy for wanting to spread the wealth? 10% owns most of the money, and there's nothing wrong with that?

I'm sorry how does this qualify you as a victim?


Funny, never said I was.

Is your eye sight somehow blemished from being forced to watch all these poor people scrounge for work? You better have been raped at one point by an illegal Mexican otherwise your experience is nothing more than stepping over the poor every other morning.



Can your view of this issue be so blinded that you have to degrade yourself by making such comments? Are you so blind that maybe you would think that they shouldn't have to do that? Are you so blind that you can't see the low wages and poor working conditions? I think so.

BTW I work in New Jersey in the largest Blueberry producing county in the world, my friend is an illegal who lives on the largest Blueberry farm in the world. I work installing Irrigation so I work with and around these folk who have migrated with their families state to state just trying to make a living. They are not bad people, they're just trying to live because to become a legal is so god damned frustrating it's near impossible.



And where did I say they were bad? Stop the spin.

Canadians don't have to sneak in 90% of their population is amassed within 10 miles of the united states.


I know that. :rolleyes:

I admire hard workers, I despise people like you who think America is "ours" and only ours. Didn't your momma ever teach you to share, or were you too busy trying not to be eaten like the rat you are?


Nice job spinning my comments out of context and branding me as selfish and a rat for not liking illegal immigration. Nice work spinning the entire issue and proving yourself immature by doing it. Rather than make one intellgent comment you choose to attack me, and as soon as you did you proved one thing. You Lost. People who lose a debate often attack the person due to it.


America is ours? Where did I say that? Thats right nowhere. Where did I say I was anti-immigration in general? Nowhere.

It seems that it's people like you are the rats. It's people like you that make me sick to my stomach! I am a rat because I am anti-illegal immigration? You sir are a waste of my time!

This coming from a person who has yet to respond to me in an intelligent manner? Blantant flaming won't save you. I know more than you because I have SEEN border crossings.

He's the one flaming?


I think you fail again. You took my comment out of context and attacked without asking for me to clear it up. Keep doing that.

What does that have to do with anything?

Ever been near the border? Nevada doesn't even border mexico, California does. Oh and BTW, I have lived here for 17 years, I have lived in Cali for about 25 years now. Keep wasting breath.

Hey moron, you don't need to border Mexico to have illegal immigrants. I live in New Jersey and run into them frequently. And how are you the victim?


Take my comment out context. I see people running across borders, digging holes, swimming across lakes.....etc. Learn the difference.

How the hell does this hurt you?

Keep trying, maybe you'll convince yourself.

Trying, I was convinced you were an idiot the moment you started posting.

He's the one flaming?

That wasn't a flame.




What does that have to do with anything?


That he took my comment out of context? That post wasn't directed at you, why do you care?


Hey moron, you don't need to border Mexico to have illegal immigrants. I live in New Jersey and run into them frequently. And how are you the victim?



:rolleyes:


The majority come from the mexican border. And again, I never said I was a victim.




How the hell does this hurt you?


Try learning about the problem as a whole. I have plenty of reasons for being against illegal immigration. Including the poor work conditions, poor pay and people being lumped up into small houses in 20 and 30's because the pay is so low they can't afford a good house.



Trying, I was convinced you were an idiot the moment you started posting.



Pot, Kettle, Black. Stop flaming.

Let me start off by apologizing.

I'm not sure what triggered it, but at some point my furnace lit and I got all fired up. I'm not even sure why I'm arguing anymore. I guess an all nighter will do that.

If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, it's a duck.


And yet I never said it, you assumed it.:rolleyes:




Poor working conditons that I cannot see? I just said I work right beside them.



Look deeper, look at the fire that killed illegals, I know you are aware of the current raid. They get used.



You sure don't seem to want them into the country, that's for damn sure.


And yet again I never said that. You assumed it. Keep doing that. I have 2 mexican friends, the only two people I talked to in college..I must want them gone to!



Why is it we do not have border patrol with Canada? Wy does Al Queda only sneak across the Mexican border, according to congress.


Because we don't need to. Canada is not a poor country and illegal immigration is not an issue there. Canada needs to monitor who comes into their country.



I attack you because I don't like you. So far you've just been hooting and holalring about living in Southern California for so many years and have to look at illegals all day. After that you're just back stepping repeating the same bullshit: "You're taking what I said out of context!" "You're not smart!"



? Not worth my time. And I don't care if you don't like me. Prove you are smarter than me and stop flaming.





You're a rat because you come off as a Minuteman spewing lengthy posts about nothing whatsoever. You hardly bring up your stance on the matter, and you sure as hell don't back it up with anything other than you live in southern california.



:rolleyes:


Where I live is important because how close I am to the border. And right now all you are doing is frothing at the mouth. Please give me something to work with.

A waste of time? Immpossible, your time is worthless.



:rolleyes:

This coming from a person who has yet to respond to me in an intelligent manner? Blantant flaming won't save you. I know more than you because I have SEEN border crossings.
What flame? I pointed out that you were flat out wrong that Canadians and Europeans don't come in illegally and YOU started attacking me.

I think you fail again. You took my comment out of context and attacked without asking for me to clear it up. Keep doing that.
Oh? What part of not sneaking in did I miss? I pointed out you were wrong, you just don't want to admit that fact. Deal with it.

Ever been near the border? Nevada doesn't even border mexico, California does. Oh and BTW, I have lived here for 17 years, I have lived in Cali for about 25 years now. Keep wasting breath.
Quite often, but the point being that my current residence in Japan does not disqualify me from knowing about the issue. Given that I'm currently trying to get my wife legally into the US, I may know more about how that works than you do.

Take my comment out context. I see people running across borders, digging holes, swimming across lakes.....etc. Learn the difference.
Oh please. Let me spell it out for you. Canadians cannot come to the US to live on a lark. They get 6 months here then have to go home. If they overstay, they are ILLEGAL. About half of the current illegal population are visa overstayers (Bet you didn't know about that, did ya? http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister/news/nationworld/article_1087193.php ). Since only REALLY stupid people declare to Immigration that they plan to illegally overstay their visa, they have sneaked into the country. If you want the Olympics, state what you want. The point is, again, I called you on your error. Your words, NOT mine.

Keep trying, maybe you'll convince yourself.
What's next, saying that the goal is an illegal Canadian who came in hopping on their left leg while singing the Stone's 'Walk This Way?' Yeah, you keep moving the goals.

What flame? I pointed out that you were flat out wrong that Canadians and Europeans don't come in illegally and YOU started attacking me.


Check your post. You have yet to get my comment right.


Oh? What part of not sneaking in did I miss? I pointed out you were wrong, you just don't want to admit that fact. Deal with it.


They get 6 months here then have to go home. If they overstay, they are ILLEGAL.


You answered your own question. I was right. The Canadian would have came here and was documented and overstayed their welcome, they would be illegal..But they didn't SNEAK IN!





Quite often, but the point being that my current residence in Japan does not disqualify me from knowing about the issue. Given that I'm currently trying to get my wife legally into the US, I may know more about how that works than you do.



It does disqualify you because you have been away and do not know about the current situation. It's like me claiming to know a lot about anything involving Japanese politics.



Oh please. Let me spell it out for you. Canadians cannot come to the US to live on a lark. They get 6 months here then have to go home. If they overstay, they are ILLEGAL. About half of the current illegal population are visa overstayers (Bet you didn't know about that, did ya? http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister/news/nationworld/article_1087193.php ). Since only REALLY stupid people declare to Immigration that they plan to illegally overstay their visa, they have sneaked into the country. If you want the Olympics, state what you want. The point is, again, I called you on your error. Your words, NOT mine.


I did know that, you just wish I didn't. I made no error, you did. There is a difference between overstaying your Visa and sneaking into the country without one. Learn the difference. Canadians would not sneak in because they DON'T HAVE TO! Our border is wide open with them, I could walk across it right now.



What's next, saying that the goal is an illegal Canadian who came in hopping on their left leg while singing the Stone's 'Walk This Way?' Yeah, you keep moving the goals.



Your making no sense now. o_0

Keep twisting my words, don't ask me what I meant, that would be pointless.;)

BTW, what degree do you have nervun and what college?



Now, lets get back to the thread topic.

*snip*
Legalise them? Suddenly they aren't 'illegal' anymore :o

Legalise them? Suddenly they aren't 'illegal' anymore :o



But then 10 million more will come across. What do you do about that?

Check your post. You have yet to get my comment right.
Quoted directly from you (You know, copy and paste). So what did I get wrong?

You answered your own question. I was right. The Canadian would have came here and was documented and overstayed their welcome, they would be illegal..But they didn't SNEAK IN!
Yes, they did. They came in under false pretenses. That's called sneaking. Tiptoeing across is just one method of sneaking. Using false credentials, whatever, it's still sneaking in to live in the US without a proper visa.

It does disqualify you because you have been away and do not know about the current situation. It's like me claiming to know a lot about anything involving Japanese politics.
There's a wonderful thing called the modern news media and the Internet. You might want to check up on it.

I did know that, you just wish I didn't. I made no error, you did. There is a difference between overstaying your Visa and sneaking into the country without one. Learn the difference. Canadians would not sneak in because they DON'T HAVE TO! Our border is wide open with them, I could walk across it right now.
Ok, you tell me what the difference is. Please, go right ahead because I would so like to hear this supposed difference.

Your making no sense now. o_0

Keep twisting my words, don't ask me what I meant, that would be pointless.;)
You're the one with the notion that sneaking somehow means digging tunnels. Say what you mean clearly, or else explain yourself. Don't sit there bitching about how "You don't understand me" because I ain't a mind reader bub so I can only use your words.

BTW, what degree do you have nervun and what college?
What does that have to do with anything?