NationStates Jolt Archive

This is a pretty heated discussion in our area. With a lack of natural snowfall, the Arizona Snowbowl wants to use reclaimed sewer water to make snow for its ski slopes.

Now the tribes are protesting this, claiming the mountains are sacred to them and they would be defiled. Yesterday, the 9th District Court of Appeals agreed. The owners of Snowbowl will go to the Supreme Court for another appeal, and if that fails, they will use groundwater.

Article Here. (http://www.azdailysun.com/articles/2007/03/13/news/20070313_news_12.txt)

My question is this: Do you object to manufactured snow?
Would you use a facility with manufactured snow from reclaimed water?
Do you think the tribes have a valid claim?

If any native american ever took a piss on the side of that mountain, then no. They have no case. :p

On a purely personal level, I object to snow of any kind, natural or man-made. :D That said, I have to assume that the reclaimed water they want to use has been processed sufficiently to allow it to make snow that people would want to ski on. Put it this way, I doubt the ski area's owners are planning to cover the mountain with yellow snow. So, yeah, if I were into strapping little boards to my feet in order to careen down a mountain side, sure, I'd not object to the snow being made from reclaimed sewage. I'd prefer not to know, perhaps.

As for the tribes, are they objecting to the use of reclaimed water or to snow-making? That wasn't completely clear. If the former, I'm sure it can demonstrated to them that the water is perfectly good. If to the latter, while I do try to be respectful of people's religious sensitivities, if they don't own the mountain, they don't have a lot of standing. Of course, if they owned it, this probably wouldn't be a question. I'm tempted to side with the ski area owner on this one.


Basically, Grade A reclaimed water is safe for anything except potability. And it's probably safe for that, people are just paranoid over drinking former sewage. :p

On a purely personal level, I object to snow of any kind, natural or man-made. :D That said, I have to assume that the reclaimed water they want to use has been processed sufficiently to allow it to make snow that people would want to ski on. Put it this way, I doubt the ski area's owners are planning to cover the mountain with yellow snow. So, yeah, if I were into strapping little boards to my feet in order to careen down a mountain side, sure, I'd not object to the snow being made from reclaimed sewage. I'd prefer not to know, perhaps.

As for the tribes, are they objecting to the use of reclaimed water or to snow-making? That wasn't completely clear. If the former, I'm sure it can demonstrated to them that the water is perfectly good. If to the latter, while I do try to be respectful of people's religious sensitivities, if they don't own the mountain, they don't have a lot of standing. Of course, if they owned it, this probably wouldn't be a question. I'm tempted to side with the ski area owner on this one.

I'm not sure. I think it actually may be both...

"An Arizona ski resort's plan to use treated sewage to make snow on a mountain sacred to several Native American tribes violates religious freedom laws, a U.S federal appeals court ruled Monday. "

“We are unwilling to hold that authorizing the use of artificial snow at an already functioning commercial ski area in order to expand and improve its facilities, as well as to extend its ski season in dry years, is a governmental
interest 'of the highest order.”

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/nation/20070312-1046-environment-navajos.html

Now I wouldn't go so far as to call it "genocide" like the Nation President. But one of the judges on the Circuit had compared putting reclaimed water on the mountain to putting it in holy water... (heard that one on the local NPR station).

*sigh*

It seems people would complain about anything and everything...

Yeah. I don't know why anybody would find poopy snow objectionable.

*sigh*

It seems people would complain about anything and everything...

I'm not sure. I think it actually may be both...

"An Arizona ski resort's plan to use treated sewage to make snow on a mountain sacred to several Native American tribes violates religious freedom laws, a U.S federal appeals court ruled Monday. "

“We are unwilling to hold that authorizing the use of artificial snow at an already functioning commercial ski area in order to expand and improve its facilities, as well as to extend its ski season in dry years, is a governmental
interest 'of the highest order.”

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/nation/20070312-1046-environment-navajos.html

Now I wouldn't go so far as to call it "genocide" like the Nation President. But one of the judges on the Circuit had compared putting reclaimed water on the mountain to putting it in holy water... (heard that one on the local NPR station).

I'd be interested to see the specific religious freedom laws the appeals court thinks are violated by the use of reclaimed water in making snow. I doubt there is one that says that a person's or group's religious sensibilities shall not be hurt by the use of possibly distasteful reclaimed water, or anything remotely close.

The court claimed it was a violation of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFRA)

"Governments should not substantially burden religious exercise without compelling justification."

At least, I think that's what they were trying to get at.

Yeah. I don't know why anybody would find poopy snow objectionable.

I am sure that the water would be purified before being used by the public. :p

The court claimed it was a violation of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFRA)

"Governments should not substantially burden religious exercise without compelling justification."

At least, I think that's what they were trying to get at.

Hmm ... certainly if the tribes maintain an active religious presence (they regularly engage in religious exercise) on the mountain, and the snow-making, with or without reclaimed water, is going to interfere with that, that's a different story. If it's just "we think that mountain is sacred" then I don't know.

Ugh.



Why would I want to go to the bathroom in water people have ski'd in?

I am sure that the water would be purified before being used by the public. :p

This is exactly the type of thing where we must talk in certainties.

Ugh.



Why would I want to go to the bathroom in water people have ski'd in?

I know, who knows where those skis have been!? :eek:

Don't Eat Yellow Snow!

Don't Eat Yellow Snow!

You should see all the bumper stickers around town to that effect. :P

This is exactly the type of thing where we must talk in certainties.

Well I have to be certain, I can't fathom how this water would be allowed to be used if it wasn't safe. I mean what happens to water after it goes through a sewage treatment plant anyway? I doubt they just dump it.

You should see all the bumper stickers around town to that effect. :P

You wouldn't happen to be anywhere near Tombstone, would you?

You wouldn't happen to be anywhere near Tombstone, would you?

No, quite a bit more north than that. ;)

Tombstone? Really? I didn't know that.

I lived in Tucson for a while. One day it snowed, and when I say "snowed," I mean a couple of flakes fell in one part of town. The city went into panic mode, businesses and schools shut down...it was absolutely nuts.

Are you from AZ?

No, quite a bit more north than that. ;)

Ah. Well, it still snows in that area. :p

Tombstone? Really? I didn't know that.

I lived in Tucson for a while. One day it snowed, and when I say "snowed," I mean a couple of flakes fell in one part of town. The city went into panic mode, businesses and schools shut down...it was absolutely nuts.

Are you from AZ?

No, but I've been through most of the state, save for the northeast extremity.

And Tucson, eh? It's a shame that they've scrapped most of those abandoned aircraft just outside the city. There were literally hundreds of P-47 Thunderbolts resting there, and now they're gone.

I'm pretty sure it snows in Tombstone... The O.K. Corral incident occurred in almost a foot of snow, anyway. Maybe it was a one-time thing?

I'll bet there is a lot more to the objections than some religious objection. I have a feeling that is the excuse and available law that is being used in order to get to another goal. And, I have a feeling that other goal is somehow economic.

The whole idea that Native Americans were in 1492 somehow ecologically aware is a rather new concept. The fact is before 1492 they killed and ate whatever they could catch with their technology. (The very reason there were no large game animals in N America after the arrival of the Natives) They also farmed land in such a way that it eroded and destroyed the fertility of the land. They didn't have the technology to break sod for agriculture so the land that is farmed today remained fertile despite the Natives rather than because they protected it. Within the limits of their technology they controlled which plants and animals lived almost as much as we do today. The large evergreen forests of today didn't exist because an evergreen was of no value to them. They controlled the evergreens so that nut trees (which had food value) dominated the forests of N America. What we see today as "native" culture is really a myth.

It had better be really purified. The way I ski, I probably eat about a quart of snow by accident every day I'm on the slopes, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

It had better be really purified. The way I ski, I probably eat about a quart of snow by accident every day I'm on the slopes, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

A lot of the government buildings around town use reclaimed water for their lawns and gardens. They have purple signs saying "Do not drink!"

Now I don't remember ever seeing anyone drinking out of the court house sprinklers, but if it's unhealthy for people to drink, it's probably not very good to get a faceful while falling down on the slopes. Assuming it's the same treatment system.

A lot of the government buildings around town use reclaimed water for their lawns and gardens. They have purple signs saying "Do not drink!"

Now I don't remember ever seeing anyone drinking out of the court house sprinklers, but if it's unhealthy for people to drink, it's probably not very good to get a faceful while falling down on the slopes. Assuming it's the same treatment system.

Ah. If that's the case, I vote no. There's no way I'm going to ski less recklessly just because I happen to be at a place that's using reclaimed water.

No, but I've been through most of the state, save for the northeast extremity.

And Tucson, eh? It's a shame that they've scrapped most of those abandoned aircraft just outside the city. There were literally hundreds of P-47 Thunderbolts resting there, and now they're gone.

I'm pretty sure it snows in Tombstone... The O.K. Corral incident occurred in almost a foot of snow, anyway. Maybe it was a one-time thing?

tombstone is in far southern arizona. it doesnt snow very often or very much. im amazed that there ever was a day with a foot of snow there and that that much snow would persist until 2 pm.

Well I have to be certain, I can't fathom how this water would be allowed to be used if it wasn't safe. I mean what happens to water after it goes through a sewage treatment plant anyway? I doubt they just dump it.

You would hope... but if I were in charge, the hilarity that would ensue would be too much for me. The time in jail would be worth it.

tombstone is in far southern arizona. it doesnt snow very often or very much. im amazed that there ever was a day with a foot of snow there and that that much snow would persist until 2 pm.

Maybe it wasn't that kind of "snow" ... :eek:

Just think how many sewer systems the water in New Orleans goes through. Every city on the Mississippi and Missouri rivers takes their water from the river and dumps the end product back in for the next town to pump out.

The real question about this thread is: Why would people worried about ecology want to use ground water for snow? Surface water is renewed each year. Ground water is a fossil that has taken millions of years to gather and will take millions more to renew. Using ground water is like using oil. Once it's pumped out it's gone as far as humans are concerned.

I still can't believe there isn't an economic incentive for the protest. And the protesters are just using whatever law is available to reach that incentive. Certainly using groundwater would be more damaging to the mountain than recycled water.