NationStates Jolt Archive

For those who aren't familiar with him, Morgan Tsvangirai is a moderate politician and trade union leader who has spent years working for democratic change in Zimbabwe through non-violent methods. He is a founder of - and the current leader of - the Movement for Democratic Change party, and has been charged with treason many times.

If only South Africa would stop dicking around, cease their support of Mugabe, and throw their support behind Tsvangirai.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6439013.stm

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/3482/mugabeyj4.png

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/2476/mugabemp5.png

You win the thread. :D

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/3482/mugabeyj4.png

This thread should be closed since nothing any of us say can top that.:D

You win the thread. :D

This thread should be closed since nothing any of us say can top that.:D
Thank Uncyclopedia (http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Africa#Government) for that gem. :D I wrote most of that article, but the Mugabe graphic was pre-existing.

For those who aren't familiar with him, Morgan Tsvangirai is a moderate politician and trade union leader who has spent years working for democratic change in Zimbabwe through non-violent methods. He is a founder of - and the current leader of - the Movement for Democratic Change party, and has been charged with treason many times.

If only South Africa would stop dicking around, cease their support of Mugabe, and throw their support behind Tsvangirai.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6439013.stm

He needs to become more radical, violent and selfish. This selfless integrity is the kind of behavior that gets people shot, imprisoned or nailed to crosses. :p

This thread should be closed since nothing any of us say can top that.:D

I challenge that assumption. :)

He needs to become more radical, violent and selfish. This selfless integrity is the kind of behavior that gets people shot, imprisoned or nailed to crosses. :p

LOL :D

For those who aren't familiar with him, Morgan Tsvangirai is a moderate politician and trade union leader who has spent years working for democratic change in Zimbabwe through non-violent methods. He is a founder of - and the current leader of - the Movement for Democratic Change party, and has been charged with treason many times.

If only South Africa would stop dicking around, cease their support of Mugabe, and throw their support behind Tsvangirai.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6439013.stm

Why is Tsvangirai not getting more international support? Well, let's see:

1. Mugabe helped turn Rhodesia into Zimbabwe. This earns him a life-time pass from those who would otherwise protest.

2. Mugabe is anti-capitalist, as are many international protestors.

3. Tsvangirai seems actually to be interested in establishing a democratic, even :eek: free-market, society, and non-violently at that, and thus doesn't fit the "liberation" mold so dear to the international protestors.

4. Tsvangirai isn't struggling against (a) a white power structure, (b) Israel, or (c) the United States.

I'm sure there are other reasons, but I'd bet these are near the top of the list.

Why is Tsvangirai not getting more international support? Well, let's see:

1. Mugabe helped turn Rhodesia into Zimbabwe. This earns him a life-time pass from those who would otherwise protest.

2. Mugabe is anti-capitalist, as are many international protestors.

3. Tsvangirai seems actually to be interested in establishing a democratic, even :eek: free-market, society, and non-violently at that, and thus doesn't fit the "liberation" mold so dear to the international protestors.

4. Tsvangirai isn't struggling against (a) a white power structure, (b) Israel, or (c) the United States.

I'm sure there are other reasons, but I'd bet these are near the top of the list.

Precisely, Mugabe could have had all white farmers and their black counterparts who didn't support him shot, their families hanged, their neighbours starved, and the international socialists would still cheer him if he says "I hatez Bush". For a significant minority of socialist types, hating Bush is more important than democracy, liberty, equality and all that. Who cares about poor people in Africa when the leaders there profess to hate Bush?

Precisely, Mugabe could have had all white farmers and their black counterparts who didn't support him shot, their families hanged, their neighbours starved, and the international socialists would still cheer him if he says "I hatez Bush". For a significant minority of socialist types, hating Bush is more important than democracy, liberty, equality and all that. Who cares about poor people in Africa when the leaders there profess to hate Bush?

What utter rot. I'd love for you to provide evidence for this little strawman.

Precisely, Mugabe could have had all white farmers and their black counterparts who didn't support him shot, their families hanged, their neighbours starved, and the international socialists would still cheer him if he says "I hatez Bush". For a significant minority of socialist types, hating Bush is more important than democracy, liberty, equality and all that. Who cares about poor people in Africa when the leaders there profess to hate Bush?

Why is Tsvangirai not getting more international support? Well, let's see:

1. Mugabe helped turn Rhodesia into Zimbabwe. This earns him a life-time pass from those who would otherwise protest.

2. Mugabe is anti-capitalist, as are many international protestors.

3. Tsvangirai seems actually to be interested in establishing a democratic, even :eek: free-market, society, and non-violently at that, and thus doesn't fit the "liberation" mold so dear to the international protestors.

4. Tsvangirai isn't struggling against (a) a white power structure, (b) Israel, or (c) the United States.

I'm sure there are other reasons, but I'd bet these are near the top of the list.

http://home.twmi.rr.com/mymaria/bullshit.jpg

Even by NM's standards, this is vitriolic crap of the highest order.

Reportedly, (http://www.france24.com/france24Public/en/news/world/20070312-zimbabwe-opposition-arrest.html) Mr. Tsvangirai has been badly beaten in detention.

For fuck's sake, someone, kill Mugabe. Just kill him, now. :mad:

For fuck's sake, someone, kill Mugabe. Just kill him, now. :mad:

Hmmm.

Because that's a case for bringing about a better government...bloody revolution to bring about fair, free democratic change? Give examples...

Mugabe is an evil man who deserves to be tried for his crimes against his own people, be they black, white, gay, socialist, capitalist or whatever...do you actually think he should die for his crimes?

Or are you playing the OTT angry man?

Because that's a case for bringing about a better government...bloody revolution to bring about fair, free democratic change? Give examples...

Show me how else Zimbabweans can gain their freedom. Answer: They can't. Their only option is to overthrow this mother fucker and put him to death like the rabid animal he is.

Show me how else Zimbabweans can gain their freedom. Answer: They can't. Their only option is to overthrow this mother fucker and put him to death like the rabid animal he is.

Seriously? Not going to happen mate. Yes he needs to go. Yes there has to be changes else the county will be plunged further and further into starvation and economic crisis. Do I think that they should kill him? No. Do I think John Smith should have been put to death for being just as bad as Mugabe? No I don't...under no circumstances should an eye for an eye be upheld.

Should the Zimbabwean people attempt an uprising I see it being quashed by power-hungry 'veterans' and friends of Mugabe...to me the only answer is for the international community to make a stand and actually tell the c*nt to fuck off...but NOT to kill him. That proves nothing. He should be tried and made to rot in jail for his crimes against humanity.

Do I think John Smith should have been put to death for being just as bad as Mugabe?

John Smith? :confused:

Seriously? Not going to happen mate. Yes he needs to go. Yes there has to be changes else the county will be plunged further and further into starvation and economic crisis. Do I think that they should kill him? No. Do I think John Smith should have been put to death for being just as bad as Mugabe? No I don't...under no circumstances should an eye for an eye be upheld.

Should the Zimbabwean people attempt an uprising I see it being quashed by power-hungry 'veterans' and friends of Mugabe...to me the only answer is for the international community to make a stand and actually tell the c*nt to fuck off...but NOT to kill him. That proves nothing. He should be tried and made to rot in jail for his crimes against humanity.

I don't think Mugabe gives a rat's ass what the international community thinks. And pressure from the international community rarely leads to genuine change in Africa. Many pro-Western dictatorships were pressured to "democratize" following the fall of the U.S.S.R., but few did; sure, many legalized opposition parties for the first time, but the basic character of the regimes remained unchanged; for example, "multi-partyism" in Zaire was commonly derided as "multi-Mobutuism." Dictators may adopt a few cosmetic reforms, but even then, they will only undergo minimal ones to appease their creditors, and will certainly not pursue reforms that lead to an usurping of their own power.

John Smith? :confused:

Woops. I meant Ian of course. *deeply ashamed* John Smith = dead leader of the Labour Party.......Ian Smith = wanker.

I don't think Mugabe gives a rat's ass what the international community thinks. And pressure from the international community rarely leads to genuine change in Africa. Many pro-Western dictatorships were pressured to "democratize" following the fall of the U.S.S.R., but few did; sure, many legalized opposition parties for the first time, but the basic character of the regimes remained unchanged; for example, "multi-partyism" in Zaire was commonly derided as "multi-Mobutuism." Dictators may adopt a few cosmetic reforms, but even then, they will only undergo minimal ones to appease their creditors, and will certainly not pursue reforms that lead to an usurping of their own power.

Of course Mugabe doesn't give a rat's ass what the international community thinks but if France and the rest of the international community keep on supporting him then they aren't even trying...you constantly talk about cutting aid to dictatorial governments in Africa and yet when there is actually an opportunity to make a difference in this way you would rather encourage a bloody coup?

Incidentally did you read about China's recent donations/trade with Mugabe (http://crybelovedzimbabwe.blogspot.com/2007/02/french-foreign-policy-aid-and-africa.html)?

In addition China has also provided a radio jamming device to Zimbabwe that allows Mugabe's regime to block broadcasts of independent news sources like SW Radio Africa from a military base outside Harare. China also donated the blue tiles that decorate the roof of Mugabe's house.

Woops. I meant Ian of course. *deeply ashamed* John Smith = dead leader of the Labour Party.......Ian Smith = wanker.

Ian Smith wasn't that bad. He was just too damn parochial and stubborn. He should have accepted majority rule, much, much sooner, but even so, he was right about Nkomo and Mugabe, and we should have tried to work with him to bring about a gradual transition to majority rule, rather than forcing it on Rhodesia/Zimbabwe and giving them a dictatorship.

Of course Mugabe doesn't give a rat's ass what the international community thinks but if France and the rest of the international community keep on supporting him then they aren't even trying...you constantly talk about cutting aid to dictatorial governments in Africa and yet when there is actually an opportunity to make a difference in this way you would rather encourage a bloody coup?

France (like the U.S.) has a long, sad, sordid history of cozy relationships with African dictatorships: Zaire, Togo, Central African "Empire," Republic of the Congo, Gabon, etc.

I have no problem with aiding African countries (dictatorial or not), IF the aid goes to those it's intended to help, which it usually does not.

Incidentally did you read about China's recent donations/trade with Mugabe (http://crybelovedzimbabwe.blogspot.com/2007/02/french-foreign-policy-aid-and-africa.html)?

I did indeed.

Ian Smith wasn't that bad. He was just too damn parochial and stubborn. He should have accepted majority rule, much, much sooner, but even so, he was right about Nkomo and Mugabe, and we should have tried to work with him to bring about a gradual transition to majority rule, rather than forcing it on Rhodesia/Zimbabwe and giving them a dictatorship.

Oh come on. Read either of the guys books and you can see that he would never have helped toward a gradual transition. Mugabe is an evil, murderous tyrant; Smith was an antiquated relic that kept Zimbabwe back even further than the other belated moves from colonial to majority rule countries. Even Mozambique is better off at the moment in terms of political freedoms...the poorest country in the world...I blame Mugabe as much as you do but UDI did not help by clinging onto the shirt tails of the Afrikaners to the South.

My opinions on the matter anyway.

I have no problem with aiding African countries (dictatorial or not), IF the aid goes to those it's intended to help, which it usually does not.



I seem to recall you championing a reduction of all aid to "corrupt" African governments. Am I wrong?

As to Aid to African countries; my best friend went to the World Social Forum in Kenya in January and came back despairing for the entire continent. He claims even donations to NGOs are hollow at the moment. Nothing is helping and nothing will help until the West wipe the debt...thoughts?

Oh come on. Read either of the guys books

Did that.

I seem to recall you championing a reduction of all aid to "corrupt" African governments. Am I wrong?

No, you're not wrong.

As to Aid to African countries; my best friend went to the World Social Forum in Kenya in January and came back despairing for the entire continent. He claims even donations to NGOs are hollow at the moment. Nothing is helping and nothing will help until the West wipe the debt...thoughts?

Debt relief and an end to unfair trade policies (i.e., forcing them to remove their trade barriers while refusing to the same) would be a great start.

I don't think Mugabe gives a rat's ass what the international community thinks. And pressure from the international community rarely leads to genuine change in Africa. Many pro-Western dictatorships were pressured to "democratize" following the fall of the U.S.S.R., but few did; sure, many legalized opposition parties for the first time, but the basic character of the regimes remained unchanged; for example, "multi-partyism" in Zaire was commonly derided as "multi-Mobutuism." Dictators may adopt a few cosmetic reforms, but even then, they will only undergo minimal ones to appease their creditors, and will certainly not pursue reforms that lead to an usurping of their own power.

If they had enough oil, well...

*shrugs*

If they had enough oil, well...

*shrugs*

Some of them do. Gabon and Angola do. Interestingly, Angola, once a Soviet satellite, is now very pro-U.S. It was a member of the "Coalition of the Willing" (it didn't participate in the Iraq War, but did support it).

Because that's a case for bringing about a better government...bloody revolution to bring about fair, free democratic change? Give examples...

The American Revolution.

The American Revolution.

Worked out great for the rest of the world......actually I'm not going to try and fight that and just say yes.

Some of them do. Gabon and Angola do. Interestingly, Angola, once a Soviet satellite, is now very pro-U.S. It was a member of the "Coalition of the Willing" (it didn't participate in the Iraq War, but did support it).

But Zimbabwe, not so much. No oil, that is. It's funny, I can remember three years back on the forums - lotsa neocon posters, lotta Bush boosters and a whole whack o' garden-variety dullards swept up in the blood fever - and they were saying "it's not the oil, it's not the oil, lalalalalalalala" with their thumbs wedged immovably past their eardrums. The assertion then was that as the self-appointed 'Policemen of the World', any strongman or dictator or fill-in-the-blank out there was due for some sort of 21st-century, star-spangled comeuppance - that the government of Iraq was just the first of many wrongs against Humanity their golden-boy the Shrub wuz gonna put to rights.

It is to laugh. To laugh uncontrollably. It is to laugh uncontrollably 'til one passes out from anoxia. And even then, you'd still wake up with all your muscles in spasm from the laughter - and maybe a fractured rib or two, to boot.

But Zimbabwe, not so much. No oil, that is. It's funny, I can remember three years back on the forums - lotsa neocon posters, lotta Bush boosters and a whole whack o' garden-variety dullards swept up in the blood fever - and they were saying "it's not the oil, it's not the oil, lalalalalalalala" with their thumbs wedged immovably past their eardrums. The assertion then was that as the self-appointed 'Policemen of the World', any strongman or dictator or fill-in-the-blank out there was due for some sort of 21st-century, star-spangled comeuppance - that the government of Iraq was just the first of many wrongs against Humanity their golden-boy the Shrub wuz gonna put to rights.

It is to laugh. To laugh uncontrollably. It is to laugh uncontrollably 'til one passes out from anoxia. And even then, you'd still wake up with all your muscles in spasm from the laughter - and maybe a fractured rib or two, to boot.

Of course, if you don't have oil, you can abuse human rights to your heart's content, and the U.S. won't give a damn.

Of course, if you don't have oil, you can abuse human rights to your heart's content, and the U.S. won't give a damn.

Zigzackly.

Zigzackly.

Of course, if Mugabe's name were "Saddam," then maybe Bush would care a bit more. :p

As I recall, every time Ian Smith thought he had an agreement about transition, the UK and the USA, and at the end the RSA, pulled the rug out from under him. In addition the terrorists knew full well that all they had to do was go "Boo Hoo, we want one man, one vote, and we want it NOW" and there goes the rug again...

Now the breadbasket of South Africa is being turned/ has been turned into a waste land.

Oh, and be sure to contribute (no pressure of course) to the Comrade Mugabe birthday fund, holiday fund, etc.

Showing my blissful youth and ignorance I 'spose, but 80% unemployment!?!! WTF!? Annual inflation of 1,729.9 percent! :o

:headbang: gosh it makes me mad thinking about the zimbabwean situation (as a zimbabwean lol) it makes me mad how the people are so powerless.. the successive droughts havent helped.. killing the bastard wouldnt help cos it would jus open the way for another power hungry bastard in his party.. im sure hes already appointed his successor.. i think someone else with more power and resources should intervene.. but i know no1 will as most countries act in their own best interest.. i mean what has zimbabwe got to offer countries like the UK and USA :(

And I should give a crap about this,Why????????????????????

And I should give a crap about this,Why????????????????????

Because he's one of the few voices of democracy in one of the worst dictatorships in the world and he's just barely survived a beating at the hands of the government?

Or does it not matter because it's not the US?

Because he's one of the few voices of democracy in one of the worst dictatorships in the world and he's just barely survived a beating at the hands of the government?

Or does it not matter because it's not got oil/American multinational corporations/US secret prison camps
Fixed for accuracy...

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/3482/mugabeyj4.png
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q100/TheSteveslols/gtfogrowswearybullshitptu8.jpg

But Zimbabwe, not so much. No oil, that is. It's funny, I can remember three years back on the forums - lotsa neocon posters, lotta Bush boosters and a whole whack o' garden-variety dullards swept up in the blood fever - and they were saying "it's not the oil, it's not the oil, lalalalalalalala" with their thumbs wedged immovably past their eardrums. The assertion then was that as the self-appointed 'Policemen of the World', any strongman or dictator or fill-in-the-blank out there was due for some sort of 21st-century, star-spangled comeuppance - that the government of Iraq was just the first of many wrongs against Humanity their golden-boy the Shrub wuz gonna put to rights.

It is to laugh. To laugh uncontrollably. It is to laugh uncontrollably 'til one passes out from anoxia. And even then, you'd still wake up with all your muscles in spasm from the laughter - and maybe a fractured rib or two, to boot.

Invading and occupying a stable nation is a ridiculous way to get a secure supply of oil. The 'War for Oil' spiel may sound good, but it is a complete nonsense.

There is a connection with the Black Gold though, and that is OPEC membership. I would argue that the real reason for the Iraq invasion was to change Iraq's vote in the OPEC Council from an anti-American one to a pro-American one. And, arguably, it has worked. In 2002 there was a serious danger of OPEC voting to abandon the US Dollar as the currency of choice (which would have caused the American economy to pretty much collapse), but after the Iraq invasion, a pro-Washington government has been installed (a government that will remain pro-Washington for as long as it relies on the USA for internal security, nay, its very existance) and the balance of power in OPEC has swung back to a pro-American stance... for now.

Iraq was a solution, but it was a very short-term solution. As soon as Iraq is able to support itself and the Coalition troops leave, the pro-American consensus in OPEC is living on borrowed time. Iraq has empowered anti-Americanism worldwide, give it time and these opinions will sink into the OPEC Council, after that, Venezuela, or Iran, or even Iraq or Saudi Arabia will put forward a proposal to switch all petrochemical exchanges from the USD to the Euro. But this will not be like 2002. America has proved that it will no longer be able to decapitate an anti-American state.

Because he's one of the few voices of democracy in one of the worst dictatorships in the world and he's just barely survived a beating at the hands of the government

Ummm...let me see.....*thinks*....*thinks some more*.......

Nope still not giving a crap and it has nothing whatsoever to do with it not being the U.S....
See Africa is a giant desert riddled with repressive regimes or those teetering on the brink of anarchy. Tons of warring tribes that have been fighting over the same patch of dirt since before Jesus was in diapers.
Any effort to change the status quo in the last 100 years has usually ended miserably.
So yeah still not givin a crap.