NationStates Jolt Archive

my2cents: honesty points for our Generals...
cant say the same for our Politicians.

Top American generals make shock admission as Iraq leader pleads with neighbouring countries to seal off their borders
March 11, 2007

US soldier guards the site of a car bomb attack in Baghdad. Photograph:
The US army is lagging behind Iraq's insurgents tactically in a war that senior officers say is the biggest challenge since Korea 50 years ago.

The gloomy assessment at a conference in America last week came as senior US and Iraqi officials sat down yesterday with officials from Iran, Syria, Jordan and Saudi Arabia in Baghdad to persuade Iraq's neighbors to help seal its borders against fighters, arms and money flowing in. During the conference the US, Iranian and Syrian delegations were reported to have had a 'lively exchange'.

In a bleak analysis, senior officers described the fighters they were facing in Iraq and Afghanistan 'as smart, agile and cunning'.

In Vietnam, the US was eventually defeated by a well-armed, closely directed and highly militarized society that had tanks, armored vehicles and sources of both military production and outside procurement. What is more devastating now is that the world's only superpower is in danger of being driven back by a few tens of thousands of lightly armed irregulars, who have developed tactics capable of destroying multimillion-dollar vehicles and aircraft.

Guardian© News 2007 / OccN©

Stay the course, we can do it.

Stay the course, we can do it.

kill more americans? Yup we certainly can do "it".

At what point do you realize the course is one straight to failure?

Stay the course, we can do it.
What's 'it'? If you mean fulfil the initial objective of the invasion, disarm Saddam Hussein of WMDs, then that failed long ago.

Stay the course, we can do it.
Not according to the West Point graduates.

Stay the course, we can do it.

Testament to the stupidity of this post is that I'm in agreement with new Burmesia.;)

Firstly, if one presupposes "it" to be the objectives of the war, namely, the emmasculation of Iraq, that's impossible, given Saddam never had any WMD's.

Secondly, whatever else "it" may be, except possibly further fucking up that poor nation, you can't do it.

So do all you think that the war is simply lost or do you feel we can still do something to turn it all around?

kill more americans? Yup we certainly can do "it".

At what point do you realize the course is one straight to failure?

when there is no more Americans in Iraq cause they all died?

So do all you think that the war is simply lost or do you feel we can still do something to turn it all around?

The probem is, to "not lose" in this situation means to win. However nobody in the administration has put forward a definitive idea of what victory is.

We can't win if we don't know what winning looks like. It's not so much the question of whether it can be turned arund, but what direction we should turn to?

So do all you think that the war is simply lost or do you feel we can still do something to turn it all around?

I think that we won the war three years ago, and that what we are doing now is standing in the middle of a civil war that we aren't wanted in.

You see, that's the problem. WE won three years ago, not the Iraqi people. We don't necessarily know that the Iraqi people wanted to be "freed". That, I believe, is the reason that Iraq is not going successfully, because the Iraqi people did not instigate the "revolution". They are kind of just...stuck with it I guess is how you could put it.

So do all you think that the war is simply lostYes.. the ground War is lost.


do you feel we can still do something to turn it all around?Yes there is plenty we need to do.
We need to find out Why. Why we were Lied to.

We need to find out Who. Who gave the faulty "Intelligence".
Since there is tons of that fraudulent "intelligence" (from multiple sources).. It will involve a lot of people at Different levels..

we need to send them to Court.. and Jail them.
If the politicians never pay the price.. they are never going to learn.

I think that we won the war three years ago, and that what we are doing now is standing in the middle of a civil war that we aren't wanted in.


Please note; A civil war YOU started.

also, you weren't wanted in the first place. You foisted your belligerence upon the rest of the world, with the good rev. Smiler in tow, and now survey the carnage.

Well duh, we simply haven't recovered from the rebels destroying the Death Star.

Well duh, we simply haven't recovered from the rebels destroying the Death Star.

Which one?

Which one?

My god! He knows about the second one! He must be killed!

Not...to...say...there...is...a...second...one.

:D

when there is no more Americans in Iraq cause they all died?

in 40 or so years then.

Please note; A civil war YOU started.

also, you weren't wanted in the first place. You foisted your belligerence upon the rest of the world, with the good rev. Smiler in tow, and now survey the carnage.

COALITION OF THE WILLING
Members/Invasion Force
USA/250,000
Britain/45,000
South Korea/3,300
Poland/194
Etc Etc Etc

I'm glad we had this talk.

"good rev. Smiler in tow".......

British term for Blair.

Exactly. Equating America with Bush is like equating Britain with Blair.

COALITION OF THE WILLING
Members/Invasion Force
USA/250,000
Britain/45,000
South Korea/3,300
Poland/194
Etc Etc Etc

I'm glad we had this talk.

"good rev. Smiler in tow".......

British term for Blair.

Why post 1/3 of an article, and without any link? I can guess, but it's not worth the argument.

In any case, here's the actual article:

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,2031172,00.html

Please note; A civil war YOU started.

Because the U.S. caused the split between the Shi'a and Sunni, the rise of the Shi'a theocrats, the rise of Sunni nationalism, caused the social strains caused by economic inequity between Shi'a and Sunni groups, the poor nation design of British imperialists too greedy to realize the colonial era was dead, and Saddam Hussein's treatment of Shi'ite and Sunni groups. We are, at worst, the catalysts of a conflict that has been brewing for centuries. Our mismanagement made things infinitely worse, and we deserve all the blame for that, but we did not start the civil war.

also, you weren't wanted in the first place. You foisted your belligerence upon the rest of the world, with the good rev. Smiler in tow, and now survey the carnage.

You'll hardly see me defending the choice to go to war with Iraq. I was 13 when it started, and even then I was a skeptic. I merely mean to imply that we are not wanted there now, and that we should not be where we are not wanted.

Why post 1/3 of an article?because the article is too long.

without any link?I am counting on you to post the link. ;)


http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,2031172,00.html
Thanks.

Let our troops fight the war like this was WWII.

Nobody cried when our troops rained artillery shells on German towns and fire bombed Tokyo (Except for the Germans and Japanese in these cities). Nobody cried over anything they did because our grandfathers and grandmothers understood that war is hell and the troops in this hell are fighting for their very survival. Both sides realized this but today we think we are somehow more civilized and that 'rules' can be followed. A very idealistic, and arrogant at times, view of one of mankinds longest running traditions.

Let our troops fight the war like this was WWII.

Nobody cried when our troops rained artillery shells on German towns and fire bombed Tokyo (Except for the Germans and Japanese in these cities). Nobody cried over anything they did because our grandfathers and grandmothers understood that war is hell and the troops in this hell are fighting for their very survival. Both sides realized this but today we think we are somehow more civilized and that 'rules' can be followed. A very idealistic, and arrogant at times, view of one of mankinds longest running traditions.

I think all wars should be practical joke wars.

Admit it people, you would be a lot more gung ho about war if you read a report of covert ops involving 25,000 U.S. Special Forces troops sneaking into Sadr City in the dark of night, saran-wrapping the toilets and leaving shaving cream bombs in sock drawers. :)

What's next? Will top U.S. scientists announce that fire is hot, or that water is wet?

COALITION OF THE WILLING
Members/Invasion Force
USA/250,000
Britain/45,000
South Korea/3,300
Poland/194
Etc Etc Etc

I'm glad we had this talk.

You forgot Denmark. ;)

Yay for pseudo-Bushisms. :D

I think all wars should be practical joke wars.

Admit it people, you would be a lot more gung ho about war if you read a report of covert ops involving 25,000 U.S. Special Forces troops sneaking into Sadr City in the dark of night, saran-wrapping the toilets and leaving shaving cream bombs in sock drawers. :)

If wars were of that nature, hell, I'd volunteer to fight in such a war! :p

I think all wars should be practical joke wars.

Admit it people, you would be a lot more gung ho about war if you read a report of covert ops involving 25,000 U.S. Special Forces troops sneaking into Sadr City in the dark of night, saran-wrapping the toilets and leaving shaving cream bombs in sock drawers. :)

LOL that would be awesome. I'd have to sign up for that then.

I think all wars should be practical joke wars.

Admit it people, you would be a lot more gung ho about war if you read a report of covert ops involving 25,000 U.S. Special Forces troops sneaking into Sadr City in the dark of night, saran-wrapping the toilets and leaving shaving cream bombs in sock drawers. :)

You just want to use that ICBP (Intercontinental Ballistic Pie) launcher of yours don't you? Crimes against Piemanity. That's what it is.

Yes there is plenty we need to do.
We need to find out Why. Why we were Lied to.

We need to find out Who. Who gave the faulty "Intelligence".
Since there is tons of that fraudulent "intelligence" (from multiple sources).. It will involve a lot of people at Different levels..

we need to send them to Court.. and Jail them.
If the politicians never pay the price.. they are never going to learn.

That's all pretty irrelevent at this point.

Let our troops fight the war like this was WWII.

Nobody cried when our troops rained artillery shells on German towns and fire bombed Tokyo (Except for the Germans and Japanese in these cities). Nobody cried over anything they did because our grandfathers and grandmothers understood that war is hell and the troops in this hell are fighting for their very survival. Both sides realized this but today we think we are somehow more civilized and that 'rules' can be followed. A very idealistic, and arrogant at times, view of one of mankinds longest running traditions.
Problem: Restoring stability and prosperity to Iraq.
Solution: Bomb it [further] to hell!

Yeah... that's not really going to work.

You just want to use that ICBP (Intercontinental Ballistic Pie) launcher of yours don't you? Crimes against Piemanity. That's what it is.

I can neither confirm nor deny the existence of the Intercontinental Ballistic Pie program.

Because the U.S. caused the split between the Shi'a and Sunni, the rise of the Shi'a theocrats, the rise of Sunni nationalism, caused the social strains caused by economic inequity between Shi'a and Sunni groups, the poor nation design of British imperialists too greedy to realize the colonial era was dead, and Saddam Hussein's treatment of Shi'ite and Sunni groups. We are, at worst, the catalysts of a conflict that has been brewing for centuries. Our mismanagement made things infinitely worse, and we deserve all the blame for that, but we did not start the civil war.

Actually, the Invasion did exacerbate inter-sectarian tensions considerably. Whereas pre-2003 whether one was Sunni or Shi'a was not much of an issue, especially outside Iraq, now it can be the difference between life and death.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuEDwcfJPSk

The only way the US can win this war is if they raze everything to the ground.

Otherwise, everytime you kill a rebel some other guy gets his Ak47 and keeps fighting.

I can neither confirm nor deny the existence of the Intercontinental Ballistic Pie program.

Lies, lies! I have the evidence here. Your excuses have holes I could throw pies through (and they'd have to be big cause my aim sucks). I'll expose your past crimes of using cream lemon filling in secret pie programs on harmless pastries to the world.

:p

Let our troops fight the war like this was WWII.

Nobody cried when our troops rained artillery shells on German towns and fire bombed Tokyo (Except for the Germans and Japanese in these cities). Nobody cried over anything they did because our grandfathers and grandmothers understood that war is hell and the troops in this hell are fighting for their very survival. Both sides realized this but today we think we are somehow more civilized and that 'rules' can be followed. A very idealistic, and arrogant at times, view of one of mankinds longest running traditions.
The reasons behind WW 2 and the Iraq War are so dissimilar that I am totally surprised that you would even attempt to compare them.

Also, if there is any "arrogance" on display, that would be yours that is showing. :eek: