NationStates Jolt Archive

It has to be pretty obvious - like the head is missing.

Or a barely developed lump of foetal tissue drops onto the pavement?

Do you have any idea how tiny and unformed a foetus is at 20 weeks?

I was posting about her being accused of bias regarding this issue and that I've found her bias to be opposite what is being claim. You mentioned an unrelated bias to both this case and the accusations leveled at Bottle.

How do they know to call the coroner? Oh, I know. Because they can recognize death. The reason they call the EMS and the Coroner is because the coroner is responsible for declaring death and the EMS take away the body.

Meanwhile, the EMS was called so this is still irrelevant.

And they have to render aid (unless the body is headless, or in a major state of disassembly) until EMS arrives.

Sorry. You're wrong.

It's as relevant as the stuff you posted about Bottle. Or are you the only person on the forum qualified to post about Bottle?

I was posting about her being accused of bias regarding this issue and that I've found her bias to be opposite what is being claim. You mentioned an unrelated bias to both this case and the accusations leveled at Bottle.


Mmm?

Oh, and as for declaring death - call your local police (assuming you're in the US), and ask them if an ordinary police officer is allowed to declare a person dead in your jurisdiction. Or do they have to call EMS and the coroner for a declaration?

How do they know to call the coroner? Oh, I know. Because they can recognize death. The reason they call the EMS and the Coroner is because the coroner is responsible for declaring death and the EMS take away the body.

Meanwhile, the EMS was called so this is still irrelevant.

It has to be pretty obvious - like the head is missing.

Or the injuries appear to be something no one could sustain. Or it is obvious that there is no breathing and hasn't been for quite some time. Or, or, or....

Besides, this side-conversation is rather irrelevant, as Jocabia is right about qualification. Even someone trained in CPR is unlikely to have the right training to do anything for a severely premature baby. It would actually be rather amazing if the fetus had lungs developed enough to breathe at all, and most people don't exactly have mini-intubation kits lying around. I'm not sure that your regular EMT would even carry a tiny enough kit for a 20-week birth.

Oddly, I have found you a bit harsh toward women as if they embarrass you by virture of being your gender (in cases where they do something you don't like). Not so much as to render your arguments nonsensical, but I've probably mentioned it a time or two.
SEE?! I can't win!! :D

I agree with your assessment, though, in terms of both sides finding examples of bias against them. That's why I don't think my personal bias is really important unless somebody can provide an example of my personal opinion leading me to make inconsistent, hypocritical, unjust, or otherwise bunk statements.

In other words, even if it were possible to prove that I hate penises and anybody who bears one (a notion that my boyfriend finds quite humorous), that still would not be remotely relevant to this topic unless somebody could show how my supposed penis-hatred has led me unto bunk on this topic.

Hehe...not the direction I expected this thread to go in yesterday...

Or the injuries appear to be something no one could sustain. Or it is obvious that there is no breathing and hasn't been for quite some time. Or, or, or....

Besides, this side-conversation is rather irrelevant, as Jocabia is right about qualification. Even someone trained in CPR is unlikely to have the right training to do anything for a severely premature baby. It would actually be rather amazing if the fetus had lungs developed enough to breathe at all, and most people don't exactly have mini-intubation kits lying around. I'm not sure that your regular EMT would even carry a tiny enough kit for a 20-week birth.

I honestly wouldn't doubt that many hospitals don't have the equipment needed for a fetus anywhere near this premature. Honestly, in such cases, specialists and special equipment are a necessity for the fetus to have even a tiny chance of survival.

And seriously, anyone who thinks that a fetus at that stage of the development could have survived after being born on a sidewalk have absolutely no sense of medicine, and likely common sense, whatsoever. To put things in perspective, for instance, a fetus at that stage is smaller than your hand, with very few of the vital organs fully, and many not even partially, developed. How is anyone going to be able to help, at all? Honestly... the fetus was likely dead within seconds(If not stillbirth). If the lungs were not developed, there would be no hope, whatsoever, under ANY circumstances, that it would survive. No "what if's", "hypotheticals", or other such nonsense-the fetus WOULD NOT survive a sidewalk birth at that stage. It's a bloody miracle of a premature birth survives at all, under the best possible circumstances. A sidewalk birth is possibly the worst circumstance a woman can have to give birth, even to a fully developed child. One at 20 weeks? There is a better chance of me cutting my left foot off throwing it into orbit around Jupiter while sipping Chai Tea in Alabama(I like my left foot, I hate Chai Tea, and despise Alabama-so there ya go). In other words, no chance, at all.

[/end rant]

But of course they can't do it so it's important to simply attack you.

Link to where I attacked Bottle.

SEE?! I can't win!! :D

I agree with your assessment, though, in terms of both sides finding examples of bias against them. That's why I don't think my personal bias is really important unless somebody can provide an example of my personal opinion leading me to make inconsistent, hypocritical, unjust, or otherwise bunk statements.

In other words, even if it were possible to prove that I hate penises and anybody who bears one (a notion that my boyfriend finds quite humorous), that still would not be remotely relevant to this topic unless somebody could show how my supposed penis-hatred has led me unto bunk on this topic.

But of course they can't do it so it's important to simply attack you. It's the same reason that reporting spam was caused by the vendetta I wasn't aware of. Because if not, then people will have to rationally assess the situation and accept that perhaps you or I have drawn our conclusion from the evidence at hand. It's not likely coincidence that the post who is claiming that we are both acting on some crazy bias but won't supply evidence is the same poster. It's not everyone's practice to ignore evidence for personal attacks. It's not even always Cluich's practice. I'm not sure why he's so certain that you're just protecting this woman who we have no evidence has committed a crime or why my comment on that fact is born of a crazed personal vendetta. He refuses to tell us.

I honestly wouldn't doubt that many hospitals don't have the equipment needed for a fetus anywhere near this premature. Honestly, in such cases, specialists and special equipment are a necessity for the fetus to have even a tiny chance of survival.

And seriously, anyone who thinks that a fetus at that stage of the development could have survived after being born on a sidewalk have absolutely no sense of medicine, and likely common sense, whatsoever. To put things in perspective, for instance, a fetus at that stage is smaller than your hand, with very few of the vital organs fully, and many not even partially, developed. How is anyone going to be able to help, at all? Honestly... the fetus was likely dead within seconds(If not stillbirth). If the lungs were not developed, there would be no hope, whatsoever, under ANY circumstances, that it would survive. No "what if's", "hypotheticals", or other such nonsense-the fetus WOULD NOT survive a sidewalk birth at that stage. It's a bloody miracle of a premature birth survives at all, under the best possible circumstances. A sidewalk birth is possibly the worst circumstance a woman can have to give birth, even to a fully developed child. One at 20 weeks? There is a better chance of me cutting my left foot off throwing it into orbit around Jupiter while sipping Chai Tea in Alabama(I like my left foot, I hate Chai Tea, and despise Alabama-so there ya go). In other words, no chance, at all.

[/end rant]

But don't you see that you sipping Chia tea and throwing your severed foot in AL is possible so we must treat like it's true over all of the many more logical and likely circumstances? Don't you see? Open your eyes, man.

I was talking about Cluichstan, actually. She was talking about people accusing her of penis-hatred. If you did accuse her of that it would be a personal attack. If you didn't then we weren't talking about you.

So Cluichistan is a "they"?

But don't you see that you sipping Chia tea and throwing your severed foot in AL is possible so we must treat like it's true over all of the many more logical and likely circumstances? Don't you see? Open your eyes, man.

And I do suppose that if I defy the laws of physics, and science itself, I COULD get it into orbit around Jupiter. You have opened my eyes to the way!

Link to where I attacked Bottle.

I was talking about Cluichstan, actually. She was talking about people accusing her of penis-hatred. If you did accuse her of that it would be a personal attack. If you didn't then we weren't talking about you.

But don't you see that you sipping Chia tea and throwing your severed foot in AL is possible so we must treat like it's true over all of the many more logical and likely circumstances? Don't you see? Open your eyes, man.

Indeed ! This theory deserves equal time in schools !
Lets write Kansas !
;)

Cluichistan is now officially a "they". So speaks Jocabia!

Because if not, then people will have to rationally assess the situation and accept that perhaps you or I have drawn our conclusion from the evidence at hand.

Or, just maybe, there is no conclusion yet - because there isn't enough evidence at hand! =)

Indeed ! This theory deserves equal time in schools !
Lets write Kansas !
;)

You have just given me my idea for my pseudo religion.

Leftipodism. Mwa.

Cluichistan is now officially a "they". So speaks Jocabia!

that would save me a lot of trouble. I can't be arsed to spell his name.

Or, just maybe, there is no conclusion yet - because there isn't enough evidence at hand! =)
Exactly.

I actually don't think it's fair to even say that I have "defended" the woman in this situation. I don't know who she is or what she actually did. It is entirely possible that she is a horrible person who did something completely indefensible. My entire point is simply that we don't have enough information either way.

I'm only "defending" her in the sense that I don't think it's remotely appropriate to hand out punishment before you even know what the crime was (or, indeed, if one occurred at all).

Then she should be given help. If, however, she's sane and fully aware of her actions, she should be put to death.

Rather quick with the death penalty for this, aren't you?

Even I'm not calling for something like that.

Then she should be given help. If, however, she's sane and fully aware of her actions, she should be put to death.

A number and three words word:

20 week old fetus.

Unless it was a self-induced miscarriage, I honestly don't see a great deal of fault nor neglect on her part(although morally non-aggreed with her actions to just leaving), as the fetus was likely dead almost instantly. However, I do suspect her to be mentally ill, as this just seems far to odd to happen to a sane person(Her just leaving).

I'm guessing there's more coming with this story, and I'd imagine mental disability plays a significant part in it.

Then she should be given help. If, however, she's sane and fully aware of her actions, she should be put to death.

You must be a real hoot on dates.

[insert obligatory "them is good eating joke"]

Then she should be given help. If, however, she's sane and fully aware of her actions, she should be put to death.

You must be a real hoot on dates.

Unless you said that, why would you assume I was talking about you.

Because when people use "they", they intend to tar others with a brush, and unless called on it, the tar sticks even if it is falsely applied.

A number and three words word:

20 week old fetus.

For some reason I suspect some people here would still consider it a heinous crime if it was a 1 week old fetus. Part of being "pro-life" I guess.

Cluichistan is now officially a "they". So speaks Jocabia!

THEY because I don't know THEIR gender. It's a stupid PC practice I picked. When I notice I try to just guess (for example, I called HER a HE at one point earlier, but I actually don't know either way) but here I apparently wasn't thinking about. However, if I was talking about multiple people we were clearly talking about people who said she was penis-hating. Unless you said that, why would you assume I was talking about you. You actually said her bias leans toward dislike of heterosexuals of all stripes.

Or, just maybe, there is no conclusion yet - because there isn't enough evidence at hand! =)

Well, we can draw certain conclusions from the evidence at hand, like this was a miscarriage based on the relative age of the fetus. It's not 100%, but it's a reasonable conclusion to make given what we know.

Cluichistan is now officially a "they". So speaks Jocabia!

We are amused.

Well, we can draw certain conclusions from the evidence at hand, like this was a miscarriage based on the relative age of the fetus. It's not 100%, but it's a reasonable conclusion to make given what we know.

Indeed, but I was talking about her culpability in the matter. We don't know if the fetus showed any signs of life (even miscarried fetuses can sometimes do so, and depending on how much prenatal care she'd had, she may or may not have known what week she was in). We don't know how much blood loss she sustained and whether or not she was in shock. We don't have any reports that any of the witnesses made a move to help her until she was already up and walking, but we don't know why she didn't answer (my best guess would be that she was in shock, and was disoriented, but I don't really have enough info to say that for sure).

There are way too many "What if?"s to even begin to condemn this woman. Personally, I'd probably have harsher words for the people who saw her out on the sidewalk and made no move to see if she needed assistance until she got up to leave than I would for this woman without much more information.

I honestly don't know your sex and I stupidly do that at times. I can't promise I'll remember but what is your gender?

We are male (but, then, you already knew that).

We are amused.

I honestly don't know your sex and I stupidly do that at times. I can't promise I'll remember but what is your gender?

[insert obligatory "them is good eating joke"]

Okay. Them dates is good eatin'.

(And before you ask, no, I'm not touching the more-obvious choice of foodstuffs with a ten-foot pole)

Indeed, but I was talking about her culpability in the matter. We don't know if the fetus showed any signs of life (even miscarried fetuses can sometimes do so, and depending on how much prenatal care she'd had, she may or may not have known what week she was in). We don't know how much blood loss she sustained and whether or not she was in shock. We don't have any reports that any of the witnesses made a move to help her until she was already up and walking, but we don't know why she didn't answer (my best guess would be that she was in shock, and was disoriented, but I don't really have enough info to say that for sure).

There are way too many "What if?"s to even begin to condemn this woman. Personally, I'd probably have harsher words for the people who saw her out on the sidewalk and made no move to see if she needed assistance until she got up to leave than I would for this woman without much more information.

Yeah, I'd actually say we have less to condemn her with than we do suggesting it, at the very least, wasn't murder. Littering, perhaps.

On the crowd, I'm equally reluctant. We know she claims amnesia. She may have been behaving strangely before the birth. Who knows? It may have happened quickly and she may have frightened them first. You see a seemingly crazy women who suddenly starts screaming and sits down on the sidewalk. And I thought it said she was in jeans. So then the seemingly crazy woman begins to remove her jeans. And at 20 weeks it's not uncommon to not even show. Too many possibilities to condemn the crowd either. We do not the EMS and police arrived rather quickly so it doesn't seem she was ignored.

We are male (but, then, you already knew that).

Did I? And here I thought I didn't. I take it you told me some other time, I'm guessing. Like I said, can't promise I remember. I only know the genders of two handfulls of people, almost all of whom I've spoken to offsite. Unless you're a puppet, you're not one of them. I'll try to remember that you have a penis, and that you think I should know that, from now on. Fair?

Exactly.

I actually don't think it's fair to even say that I have "defended" the woman in this situation. I don't know who she is or what she actually did. It is entirely possible that she is a horrible person who did something completely indefensible. My entire point is simply that we don't have enough information either way.

I'm only "defending" her in the sense that I don't think it's remotely appropriate to hand out punishment before you even know what the crime was (or, indeed, if one occurred at all).

The crime was illegal disposal of medical waste. Duh!

The crime was illegal disposal of medical waste. Duh!

Or put more simply, 'littering'.

Did I? And here I thought I didn't. I take it you told me some other time, I'm guessing. Like I said, can't promise I remember. I only know the genders of two handfulls of people, almost all of whom I've spoken to offsite. Unless you're a puppet, you're not one of them. I'll try to remember that you have a penis, and that you think I should know that, from now on. Fair?

Ooh! Do you remember mine? Hmmm?

I'm only "defending" her in the sense that I don't think it's remotely appropriate to hand out punishment before you even know what the crime was (or, indeed, if one occurred at all).

Absolutely.

The mob calling for blood earlier in this thread left me quite ashamed of NSG - more than usual...

Or put more simply, 'littering'.

Hehe. Beat ya. -
Yeah, I'd actually say we have less to condemn her with than we do suggesting it, at the very least, wasn't murder. Littering, perhaps.

Yeah, I'd actually say we have less to condemn her with than we do suggesting it, at the very least, wasn't murder. Littering, perhaps.

On the crowd, I'm equally reluctant. We know she claims amnesia. She may have been behaving strangely before the birth. Who knows? It may have happened quickly and she may have frightened them first. You see a seemingly crazy women who suddenly starts screaming and sits down on the sidewalk. And I thought it said she was in jeans. So then the seemingly crazy woman begins to remove her jeans. And at 20 weeks it's not uncommon to not even show. Too many possibilities to condemn the crowd either. We do not the EMS and police arrived rather quickly so it doesn't seem she was ignored.

I was thinking more along the lines of this woman:

One of the witnesses was a 56-year-old woman who had stopped at a nearby store to buy cigarettes. She told police that, before going into the store, she saw the woman lying on the pavement on her side in obvious pain. When she left the store, she saw the woman standing up wiping blood off her clothing.

The shopper asked her if she needed help, but the woman walked away without replying, police said. It was then that the shopper saw the newborn on the pavement and called police.
http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/news/politics/16881992.htm

The woman saw someone lying on the the pavement "in obvious pain," but just went on about her business anyways until she came out and saw blood. There might be a good reason for her to go buy her cigarettes before offering assistance (maybe the store was about to close?[/sarcasm), but it does seem a little strange. And it makes me wonder how many more people walked by a woman "lying on the pavement on her side in obvious pain".

It's not enough to start condemning or planning executions, but it's more evidence than we have that the woman herself did anything wrong.

This would be a fun thread. We'd have to do the guesses in white though so as not to ruin it.

For you, I'm thinking I remember female, but male kind of sounds right to me as well. Meh, I'll guess female.

I actually had fun in a thread recently. I guess I've been around long enough that I thought just about everyone already knew my gender. Later in the thread, I was asked point-blank what it was. I was then told that the person had guessed it "before I admitted it" - like it's a crime! LOL

Ooh! Do you remember mine? Hmmm?

This would be a fun thread. We'd have to do the guesses in white though so as not to ruin it.

For you, I'm thinking I remember female, but male kind of sounds right to me as well. Meh, I'll guess female.

I actually had fun in a thread recently. I guess I've been around long enough that I thought just about everyone already knew my gender. Later in the thread, I was asked point-blank what it was. I was then told that the person had guessed it "before I admitted it" - like it's a crime! LOL

Yours I know. Bottle. Sin. Grave. DCD. DK. Kat. I've listed about twenty more here that I wrote and then erased because I'm not entirely sure.

Stop right there. I don't care why she did it. Nor do I give a flying fuck where she was going or what she was doing. The fact is that she left a newborn baby on a sidewalk to die. End of story.
Er, end of spin more like. Of course spin goes in both directions. So far as can be known at this point it's at least as accurate to say "she left a corpse on the sidewalk to go and find medical assistance for the living". So far as the available facts go we dont know whether she left a newborn baby or she left a corpse (although the latter is more likely on the balance of probability), but I do know that it's not unreasonable to leave a corpse in order to priortise getting medical care for the living. In fact if you talk to 'rescue professionals' (fire-fighters, ambulance drivers, police) you'll find this is the standard proceedure where choices have to be made between the living and the dead in an emergency.

I actually had fun in a thread recently. I guess I've been around long enough that I thought just about everyone already knew my gender. Later in the thread, I was asked point-blank what it was. I was then told that the person had guessed it "before I admitted it" - like it's a crime! LOL
I can't count the number of times people have reacted similarly to my gender around here. But the best is when people refuse to believe it. I've had so many people inform me that I'm not really female, that I'm just some 40 year old man in his mother's basement. That's fun. :D

For some reason I suspect some people here would still consider it a heinous crime if it was a 1 week old fetus. Part of being "pro-life" I guess.
Yeah, and we can see evidence of their firm "pro-life" beliefs in their eagerness to execute a woman who has had a miscarriage.

Yeah, and we can see evidence of their firm "pro-life" beliefs in their eagerness to execute a woman who has had a miscarriage.

And, by all appearances, was extremely traumatized by the event.

Yeah, and we can see evidence of their firm "pro-life" beliefs in their eagerness to execute a woman who has had a miscarriage.

Know thy mantra

A Miscarriage is an Abortion
Abortion is bad.

Repeat ad nauseam.

Yeah, and we can see evidence of their firm "pro-life" beliefs in their eagerness to execute a woman who has had a miscarriage.

Yes, it never ceases to amaze me - the excessively martial & authoritarian bent of child posters.

If that were true, every single woman on this planet has performed a self-abortion. Don't something like 66% of fertilized eggs get miscarried?

Don't let facts stand in the way of the holy mantra.

A Miscarriage is an Abortion.
Abortion is bad.
Therefor a woman who has a miscarriage is bad.

Pity some people in this topic actually believe this.

Know thy mantra

A Miscarriage is an Abortion
Abortion is bad.

Repeat ad nauseam.

If that were true, every single woman on this planet has performed a self-abortion. Don't something like 66% of fertilized eggs get miscarried?

Know thy mantra

A Miscarriage is an Abortion
Abortion is bad.

Repeat ad nauseam.

Yes, and a Death Penalty for having the shameless audacity to miscarry is just rewards. I'm ever so happy we aren't governed by the under-twelves.

If that were true, every single woman on this planet has performed a self-abortion. Don't something like 66% of fertilized eggs get miscarried?

In that case, I suppose the more vengeful among us would say we need bigger gallows...

Yes, and a Death Penalty for having the shameless audacity to miscarry is just rewards.

Naturally. What kind of silly human being would pity the woman instead ?

Naturally. What kind of silly human being would pity the woman instead ?

An anti-Christian, fag-loving Islamofascist symp, no doubt. You know - a sub-human.

If that were true, every single woman on this planet has performed a self-abortion. Don't something like 66% of fertilized eggs get miscarried?

Yes and no. Yes if you count the eggs that never implant, no if you don't.

An anti-Christian, fag-loving Islamofascist symp, no doubt.

Well.. two out of three ain't bad I suppose...

Well, she's either a really vile person, or simply retarded (literally). I'm not really sure which is more sad.

Why didn't anybody call 911 though? Hell, Oakland's got several hospitals. Even with the mother's complete negligence, the newborn should not have died. And it's not like no one saw it. This is truly appalling, in multiple ways.

Even with the mother's complete negligence, the newborn should not have died.

...It was a twenty week old fetus. The chances of survival were nil.

Well, she's either a really vile person, or simply retarded (literally). I'm not really sure which is more sad.

Why didn't anybody call 911 though? Hell, Oakland's got several hospitals. Even with the mother's complete negligence, the newborn should not have died. And it's not like no one saw it. This is truly appalling, in multiple ways.

Um, you did read up before you came to that conclusion, no? No. You didn't. Because this was a fetus. She had a miscarriage. Miscarriages happen, as fact would have it, because the fetus is supposed to die. At this stage there was nothing anyone could have done including the mother. What's appalling is all the people jumping to hang this woman and everyone around with relatively little evidence to support the condemnation and much evidence to debunk it.

Um, you did read up before you came to that conclusion, no? No. You didn't. Because this was a fetus. She had a miscarriage. Miscarriages happen, as fact would have it, because the fetus is supposed to die. At this stage there was nothing anyone could have done including the mother. What's appalling is all the people jumping to hang this woman and everyone around with relatively little evidence to support the condemnation and much evidence to debunk it.

I'm not jumping to hang her. The OP shouldn't be misleading. I'm a student, I'm wasting enough time on here as it is without reading 20 pages that are probably mostly people arguing over semantics or flaming each other, which is usually the case with threads this long on here. Sorry for concluding in advance that, given prior experience, it had devolved to such. I did read the KTVU thing, and that's what I based my post on. You'll notice I didn't automatically assume she was evil, since even if it had been a 9 month old pregnancy, she could have been mentally handicapped or something. Nor did I say anything like "she should be put to death in some horribly painful barbaric manner." I don't believe in using cruel and unusual punishment, or the death penalty.

So if I jumped to conclusions, you're just as guilty of doing so.

I'm not jumping to hang her. The OP shouldn't be misleading. I'm a student, I'm wasting enough time on here as it is without reading 20 pages that are probably mostly people arguing over semantics or flaming each other, which is usually the case with threads this long on here. Sorry for concluding in advance that, given prior experience, it had devolved to such. I did read the KTVU thing, and that's what I based my post on. You'll notice I didn't automatically assume she was evil, since even if it had been a 9 month old pregnancy, she could have been mentally handicapped or something. Nor did I say anything like "she should be put to death in some horribly painful barbaric manner." I don't believe in using cruel and unusual punishment, or the death penalty.

So if I jumped to conclusions, you're just as guilty of doing so.

I don't mean hanging literally. I mean you're post is suggesting she's done something wrong even if you excuse her for it later, you're condemining her for something she hasn't done in the first place.

Saying "Well, she's either a really vile person, or simply retarded (literally)" is a condemnation (a hanging) that was undeserved. Is she completely vile or simply retarded because she behaved as if having a sudden miscarriage on the sidewalk was a traumatic event? Because that's pretty much all the information we know. Your post offers no third alternative - that we actually don't know enough, even only reading the OP, to consider her crazy, retarded or vile. The fact that it turned out to be a miscarriage is evidence of this and it doesn't excuse your ignorance of this by claiming you were to lazy to bother finding out enough to support your judgement of this woman.

I'm a student, I'm wasting enough time on here as it is without reading 20 pages that are probably mostly people arguing over semantics or flaming each other, which is usually the case with threads this long on here.

*Resists urge to whip out the old "We're past page 20..." sign, or quote The Rules!*

I don't mean hanging literally. I mean you're post is suggesting she's done something wrong even if you excuse her for it later, you're condemining her for something she hasn't done in the first place.

Saying "Well, she's either a really vile person, or simply retarded (literally)" is a condemnation (a hanging) that was undeserved. Is she completely vile or simply retarded because she behaved as if having a sudden miscarriage on the sidewalk was a traumatic event? Because that's pretty much all the information we know. Your post offers no third alternative - that we actually don't know enough, even only reading the OP, to consider her crazy, retarded or vile. The fact that it turned out to be a miscarriage is evidence of this and it doesn't excuse your ignorance of this by claiming you were to lazy to bother finding out enough to support your judgement of this woman.

It's not my fault that KTVU falsely reported the news. Stop acting like a dick just because I believed the news site's story.

Clearly then, this is not really an issue. The sidewalk seems an odd place for a miscarriage. Do they usually happen all suddenly like that or was she not able to go to a hospital?

*Resists urge to whip out the old "We're past page 20..." sign, or quote The Rules!*

A lot of times threads with more than 10 pages long aren't worth replying to since by that time a bitter argument has started over some tangent that only somewhat relates to the original topic. It's just how it goes. The fact that I usually don't bother with long General threads and am mostly an RPer is why my post count is so low for my nation age.

...It was a twenty week old fetus. The chances of survival were nil.

No. No they weren't. The chance of survival were none. As stated SEVERAL pages back, the earliest survived fetus was 22 weeks, with ample time to prepare for it's birth, machinery, etc, and in a hospital.

This was on a sidewalk, with no medical staff anywhere, and quite frankly nothing anyone could have done. It was likely stillborn, or dead within seconds.

Of course, facts get in the way with some people's views.

No. No they weren't. The chance of survival were none. As stated SEVERAL pages back, the earliest survived fetus was 22 weeks, with ample time to prepare for it's birth, machinery, etc, and in a hospital.

This was on a sidewalk, with no medical staff anywhere, and quite frankly nothing anyone could have done. It was likely stillborn, or dead within seconds.

Of course, facts get in the way with some people's views.

You do realise that is EXACTLY what the person you were replying to was saying don't you?

nil = none, nothing, zero

'nil' is synomonous with 'none'

It's not my fault that KTVU falsely reported the news. Stop acting like a dick just because I believed the news site's story.

Kid, if you still believe what the news tells you, you're in way over your head in this forum. :D

It's not my fault that KTVU falsely reported the news. Stop acting like a dick just because I believed the news site's story.

Clearly then, this is not really an issue. The sidewalk seems an odd place for a miscarriage. Do they usually happen all suddenly like that or was she not able to go to a hospital?

Miscarriages can happen lots of ways depending on the situation. Keep in mind that they are a body's reaction to a pregnancy that it thinks it or the fetus cannot handle. Because of this, like most bodily functions the way it reacts is often in proportion to the problem. High fever for a bad infection, low fever for a mild infection. A little poisoned (flu, food poisoning, etc.), you have mild vomiting and a lot poisoned, projectile. We don't know how long this was going on or how much warning she had. Women who have miscarriage usually don't recognize it as a problem right away because no one expects they are suddenly going to go into labor at 20 weeks. She was only half way to term.

And, yes, it's your fault you believed the story. It's their fault they reported on it without getting the facts, but it's your fault you believed it. Whose fault would it be? The story was vague. You'll notice that most people here when the story was fresh commented on the lack of information and the need to wait to see what develops. You didn't. Learn to be skeptical of such scant news articles that seem to pass judgement. Usually those are the ones where they were rushing to get it out and they didn't take the time to gather info.

You do realise that is EXACTLY what the person you were replying to was saying don't you?

nil = none, nothing, zero

'nil' is synomonous with 'none'

synonymous :D

synonymous :D

You should hear me try to pronounce it...