NationStates Jolt Archive

Here (http://www.thelocal.se/6645/20070309/)
Deputy prime minister Maud Olofsson has added a new twist to Sweden's divisive surveillance debate. The Centre Party leader claims that defence minister Mikael Odenberg's proposed legislation would merely codify practices that have already been in operation for decades.

Previously, at a time when all telecommunications were state-operated, Sweden's National Defence Radio Establishment (Försvarets Radioanstalt - FRA) regularly tapped telephone lines in and out of the country, says Olofsson.

It was only when Telia became a registered company that the need for legislation arose, she says.

"Sweden has always listened in as a means of ensuring that we have had the information necessary to protect national security. I don't think that is a secret," said Olofsson at a press conference on Friday.

Interesting how this will pan out....

Isn't there already a thread about this? And wasn't that one started by the same OP as this one?Not anymore there isn't. And it was by Zarakon.

Isn't there already a thread about this? And wasn't that one started by the same OP as this one?

Not anymore there isn't. And it was by Zarakon.

My mistake.

Here (http://www.thelocal.se/6645/20070309/)


Interesting how this will pan out....


Bush's fault...

oh wait...

it's socialists doing it, never mind.

I kinda hope the Centre Party is wrong. I always had this secret hope that Sweden was that mythical bird, a socialist government that actually respected it's citizens' rights.

Another secret hope dashed...

I kinda hope the Centre Party is wrong. I always had this secret hope that Sweden was that mythical bird, a socialist government that actually respected it's citizens' rights.

Another secret hope dashed...

We all grow up and realize our mistakes eventually..... :D

why is there another thread on this? i thought the last one was pretty well sewn up before the lock or whatever happened to it.

Bush's fault...

oh wait...

it's socialists doing it, never mind.

...Hillary's fault?

*goes on mic*

Who do we blame for socialists' mistakes?

why is there another thread on this? i thought the last one was pretty well sewn up before the lock or whatever happened to it.
This thread at least appears to discuss the topic, rather than a thinly veiled flamebait directed at Fass.

All governments spy on their people, its nothing new

and in other news apparently the earth is not flat. More on that story when we get it

...Hillary's fault?

*goes on mic*

Who do we blame for socialists' mistakes?

Ruffy.

This thread at least appears to discuss the topic, rather than a thinly veiled flamebait directed at Fass.

that's true. ah well i already debated the topic with jUNii in the last thread. can't be bothered again.

[Defense minister] Mikael Odenberg could not say with any certainty whether Olofsson was correct in her assumptions about FRA in the pre-Telia era.
According to security expert Wilhelm Agrell, there is no general consensus as to whether FRA has been tapping phones for decades.
Per Kjellnäs, former head of FRA, says that his organization did in fact listen in on telecommunications, but never over the cable network.

"It must be some kind of misunderstanding. We were able to listen in on satellite communications. I don't want to reveal the extent to which FRA did so, but the legal possibility was available to us.

"In the 1970s, 80s and 90s, a lot more telecommunications took place in the ether. Previously FRA was not allowed to listen to anything over a wire, we only had access to the ether," said Kjellnäs.

Sounds damning indeed. :rolleyes:

So, it looks like pretty soon the Fass pot will be pointing out the American kettle has an interesting hue.

Good for Sweden.

So, it looks like pretty soon the Fass pot will be pointing out the American kettle has an interesting hue.

And if you for even just a second manage to ignore your Nailing Fass-obsession, can you honestly tell me that you don't see the difference between the US wiretapping program and the Swedish SIGINT program? Even disregarding the fact that the deputy prime ministers assertions has yet to be corroborated?

It'd be nice to have more observation, provided it applies equally across all social classes or unequally, with the people in power being observed the most.

So, the thread has lost any point it might have held? Just want to know...

This thread at least appears to discuss the topic, rather than a thinly veiled flamebait directed at Fass.

So, it looks like pretty soon the Fass pot will be pointing out the American kettle has an interesting hue.
Looks like I spoke too soon.

Bush's fault...

oh wait...
it's socialists doing it, never mind.
Sweden isn't socialist. Why not use an actual example of socialists spying on their people, such as the USSR?

Here (http://www.thelocal.se/6645/20070309/)


Interesting how this will pan out....

It's ok if the Swedes do it. It's only evil if the US does it (or more precisely, if the Republicans do it).

Do what, again?

Fill in the blank. In this case, "wiretap your own citizens".

But you can fill anything in the blank.

Even if you said, "provide universal health care", it would be evil if Republicans do it. You know, like the prescription drug coverage for seniors. Obviously an evil plot.

It's ok if the Swedes do it. It's only evil if the US does it (or more precisely, if the Republicans do it).

Do what, again?

and in other news apparently the earth is not flat. More on that story when we get it

:eek:

I want updates on this story, as soon as possible!

Fill in the blank. In this case, "wiretap your own citizens".
Ah, you mean the uncorroberated statement? About the agency which is like the NSA, but the article does not say wiretapped without obtaining warrants or acceptance from proper authorities in charge of oversight?

But you can fill anything in the blank.

Even if you said, "provide universal health care", it would be evil if Republicans do it. You know, like the prescription drug coverage for seniors. Obviously an evil plot.
Feeling a bit paranoid, are we?

Ah, you mean the uncorroberated statement? About the agency which is like the NSA, but the article does not say wiretapped without obtaining warrants or acceptance from proper authorities in charge of oversight?

Feeling a bit paranoid, are we?

Ah, like the initial NYT reports, that people automatically took to be true...

and called for major investigations...

and called for impeachment...

Ah, like the initial NYT reports, that people automatically took to be true...

and called for major investigations...

and called for impeachment...

No, not like the initial NYT report. This was a government official. It's like if Dick Cheney had come out and said "We've wiretapped people for years."

Except of course that it's not clear if Olofsson misspoke or not. Or if she meant that the wiretaps targeted swedish civilians...
"In April 1948 the government reached a secret agreement to make telegraph traffic available to FRA on a limited basis. This concerned telegraphs to and from foreign missions in Sweden. That agreement has been made public, so it is somewhat difficult to deny it," said Agrell.

"We don't know if this permission was successively extended. But it is not in any way unthinkable that they actually had access to more traffic than they have cared to admit," he added.
Or if such wiretaps would be illegal under the current Swedish law.

The fact that the general public - and the swedish media - doesn't seem particularly outraged at these revalations, lead me to believe that there is indeed a huge difference between the stories.

First of all:

Sweden isn't socialist. Why not use an actual example of socialists spying on their people, such as the USSR?

USSR is communist. Sweden is socialist. USSR = Communist, Sweden = Socialist.

Learn the difference.

Now, on to the issue at hand:

They bring this up because, gasp, they want to limit it/make laws about it! Isn't that a, you know, good thing?

Oh, and laws will always create bureaucracy of some sort which, in turn, limits use.

Sweden = Socialist.


Hardly.

Hardly.

Using the popular definition of socialism, Sweden is socialist with regards to social matters.

Mayhaps not socialist economically, but that's all for the better, as both free market and planned economies have been shown to be made of fail.

I blame it on the fever, but I read "We've been wiping our asses for decades".

And I thought...um, okay, well good for you then?

I blame it on the fever, but I read "We've been wiping our asses for decades".

And I thought...um, okay, well good for you then?

Meh, it feels like it wouldn't make a difference to the thread if you had been right :p