NationStates Jolt Archive

I just purchased and have been reading Lou Dobbs book, War on the Middle Class. I think most of his ideas in this book hit the nail on the head. What are your views?

Here is a Link:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0670037923/sr=1-1/qid=1173458669/ref=cm_cr_dp_pt/103-6712742-4927800?ie=UTF8&n=283155&s=books&qid=1173458669&sr=1-1

does he go off on his "i hate immigrants" kick in it?

Lou Dobbs is an idiot, and seems like a generally unpleasant person. However, he does bring up some good issues (except when he rants about immigration or foreign policy...or China...) about the fact that the middle class is indeed rapidly shrinking in America: the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, and most people in the middle tend to be getting poorer these days.

Edit: Behold my timewarping powers!

"War on the Middle Class: How the Government, Big Business, and Special Interest Groups Are Waging War on the American Dream..."

wow I can tell its bollocks by a few lines in the title:p

Of course he does. Those two issues are his raison d'être for keeping his retarded "news" program on CNN. Well, that and selling his bloody book. :rolleyes: So much for real journalism.

Mises > Lou Dobbs. (http://www.mises.org/story/2407)

Mises > Lou Dobbs. (http://www.mises.org/story/2407)

:eek: one right winger calling another right winger left wing

Can two wrongs make a right? :D

I dont know about the book, but it is true that the middle class is shrinking, not only in the US, but everywhere in the globe.

Which is awfull for the economy, since its the middle class that really runs the economy. Without them, no one pays for services, and the third sector is what really stands in developed countries.

:eek: one right winger calling another right winger left wing

Can two wrongs make a right? :D

No, but three rights make a left.

Ba-dum-ching. :D I'll be here all week. Try the chicken.

No, but three rights make a left.

Ba-dum-ching. :D I'll be here all week. Try the chicken.

*dies*

Well I believe that Nafta was a very big mistake, and that is one thing that is talked about in this book.

Well I believe that Nafta was a very big mistake, and that is one thing that is talked about in this book.

Nafta has been very good for this country. In fact, the post-Nafta economic expansion was one of the strongest in history and strongest since the 1960's in terms of wage and job growth. Our productivity, the main driver of the 90's boom and our current expansion, has direct ties to the increased economic efficiency of the post-NAFTA economy.

The fearongering of protectionists turned out to be utterly false, just like it has throughout history...they're honestly so wrong all the time that it's a shock anyone can adhere to their dead ideas.

If there is a War on the Middle Class then it is purely defencive.

[The] the middle class is shrinking, not only in the US, but everywhere in the globe.

That is completely and utterly untrue.

That is completely and utterly untrue.

Not if you believe asshats like Lou Dobbs. ;)

The devaluation of the US currency is the true problem for the middle class. Wages in my opinion are not keeping up with inflation pressures. Housing and everyday goods are rising faster then hourly/Salaried wages. Consumer debt is also rising to extremely high levels. This has been a problem for many decades that will come to a head at some point in the near future.

Nafta has been very good for this country. In fact, the post-Nafta economic expansion was one of the strongest in history and strongest since the 1960's in terms of wage and job growth. Our productivity, the main driver of the 90's boom and our current expansion, has direct ties to the increased economic efficiency of the post-NAFTA economy.

The fearongering of protectionists turned out to be utterly false, just like it has throughout history...they're honestly so wrong all the time that it's a shock anyone can adhere to their dead ideas.While I believe that NAFTA has been benifitial, it isn't the reason for the growth in the 90s. That would be the tech boom.

Not if you believe asshats like Lou Dobbs. ;)

I don't know if it's a global phenomenon--I suspect it isn't--but it is absolutely the case in the US that the middle class is shrinking, and has been for about the last 30 years.

I just purchased and have been reading Lou Dobbs book, War on the Middle Class. I think most of his ideas in this book hit the nail on the head. What are your views?

Some major problems with that book.

1. The "middle class" doesn't exist in anything but an arbitrarily defined manner. "Middle class" is just a way that the working class is divided against itself.

2. He avoids answering the root of problem (obviously, 'cuz he's just a hack). Issues of outsourcing jobs are meaningless unless we understand what exactly causes that. And what causes that is two fold. First, general economic competition by extremely wealthy corporations seeks to find lowest wages possible. Secondly, it deflates labor struggles in the home country, which bolsters social control and improves profits.

Nafta has been very good for this country. In fact, the post-Nafta economic expansion was one of the strongest in history and strongest since the 1960's in terms of wage and job growth. Our productivity, the main driver of the 90's boom and our current expansion, has direct ties to the increased economic efficiency of the post-NAFTA economy.

The fearongering of protectionists turned out to be utterly false, just like it has throughout history...they're honestly so wrong all the time that it's a shock anyone can adhere to their dead ideas.

Too bad it hasn't been as good for Mexico since it left the US with a number of protectionist instruments to restrain trade.

Nafta has been very good for this country. In fact, the post-Nafta economic expansion was one of the strongest in history and strongest since the 1960's in terms of wage and job growth. Our productivity, the main driver of the 90's boom and our current expansion, has direct ties to the increased economic efficiency of the post-NAFTA economy.

The fearongering of protectionists turned out to be utterly false, just like it has throughout history...they're honestly so wrong all the time that it's a shock anyone can adhere to their dead ideas.

Right, tell that to the Americans of the 19th century. If it wasn't for protectionism, the US would have never industrialized.

NAFTA has jepordized American soverignity and laid the groundwork of the NAU, period, end of story.

Right, tell that to the Americans of the 19th century. If it wasn't for protectionism, the US would have never industrialized.
The US industrialized because the abolition of slavery made the earlier textile/slave based economy that the nation had been built on defunct. Admittedly, the growth of the Military-Industrial complex to fuel the Northern war effort helped somewhat as well.

I don't know if it's a global phenomenon--I suspect it isn't--but it is absolutely the case in the US that the middle class is shrinking, and has been for about the last 30 years.

Only because people define "middle class" however it suits their particular rhetoric. Easier to say it's shrinking if you can define it so it appears to make your point.

Isn't there a war on every class nowadays?

*checks his supply of weapons*

Having a country with a large middle class is like having a country full of "third lieutenants - a rank as necessary as feet on a fish, wedged into the hairline between fleet sergeants and real officers...Your commission reads 'third lieutenant,'...but your pay stays the same, you continue to be addressed as 'Mister,' the only change in uniform is a shoulder pip even smaller than cadet insignia."

You either give orders or follow them, make total sense or no sense at all, no middle ground.

Bullshit fiction.

The government wants nothing more than to appease the middle class.

I don't support a war on the Middle class. I do, however, fully support a war on my Calculus class.

Bullshit fiction.

The government wants nothing more than to appease the middle class.

They always do when they start planning for elections.

Having a country with a large middle class is like having a country full of "third lieutenants - a rank as necessary as feet on a fish, wedged into the hairline between fleet sergeants and real officers...Your commission reads 'third lieutenant,'...but your pay stays the same, you continue to be addressed as 'Mister,' the only change in uniform is a shoulder pip even smaller than cadet insignia."

You either give orders or follow them, make total sense or no sense at all, no middle ground.

Too bad for you the middle ages are over.

I don't know if it's a global phenomenon--I suspect it isn't--but it is absolutely the case in the US that the middle class is shrinking, and has been for about the last 30 years.


Agreed with you on. If anyone doesn't believe it, then I dare you to come to Illinois, I'll show you how what we consider middle class is considered lower class by country's standards.

Right, tell that to the Americans of the 19th century. If it wasn't for protectionism, the US would have never industrialized.

NAFTA has jepordized American soverignity and laid the groundwork of the NAU, period, end of story.

Well, what's wrong with a NAU?

Bullshit fiction.

The government wants nothing more than to appease the middle class.

Right, because the goverment wants their people to have power, and knowledge and all the good stuff that comes with the middle class, so that way they get to be kept in check and yadda yadda. :rolleyes:

They'd rather appease the rich folk, you know, the one's donating them the millions of bucks a year.

I don't support a war on the Middle class. I do, however, fully support a war on my Calculus class.

-gears up for war-

A much better book on the same subject is "Screwed" by Thom Hartman

http://www.thomhartmann.com/screwed/author.htm

Right, tell that to the Americans of the 19th century. If it wasn't for protectionism, the US would have never industrialized.

You do know that the tariffs of the 19th century was for revenue rather than protecting American industry, right? All we did was place the tax FOB rather than on sales, or corporate profits, or anything else...those tariffs were so low that our products competed freely with others around the world; in fact, tariffs had to be low because the US was an export nation and we had to avoid retaliation from our trade partners.

It wasn't until the protectionist idiocy of the 1930's and 1970's that we ran in to trouble. The first time, they caused the Depression and the second time they destroyed American manufacturing thanks to quota rents...their record is one of complete and utter failure.

NAFTA has jepordized American soverignity and laid the groundwork of the NAU, period, end of story.

I'd rather be allowed to spend my money the way I want than be forced to buy overpriced, inferior quality American products in the name of nationalism. Any American products I buy now I buy because they're the best value and anything else would be a ripoff that hurts my standard of living. Protectionism is economic coercion and nothing more; we would be furious if the government told us what products we could and couldn't buy, but people seem to forget that protectionism is just another variant of that same repression.

I honestly couldn't care less if we had a NAU especially if it meant cheap goods, easy travel, and investment opportunities.

The middle class is a temporary fiction.

Thankfully it will soon go the way of the steam engine.

Except of course China, where the middle class recently exceeded the population of the US.

Yes, but that's the chinese definition of the middle class, not the american definition.

And I would actually question your assertion that the chinese middle class has now exceeded, in number, the entire population of the US.

I dont know about the book, but it is true that the middle class is shrinking, not only in the US, but everywhere in the globe.

Which is awfull for the economy, since its the middle class that really runs the economy. Without them, no one pays for services, and the third sector is what really stands in developed countries.

Except of course China, where the middle class recently exceeded the population of the US.

The middle class will eventually decend into poverty and the rich will continue to grow ultra wealthy and uber powerful. The poor will continue to be abused, cheated, and taken advantage of at the hands of the rich and soon an aristochracy will be in place. Then, then, REVOLUTION! Then masses of the poor simply mob up, ravish the nation the likes have which have never been seen before, and kill everyone. The blood will flow in streams, the rich wont be able to defend themselves- the coup will be long and bloody and it will lead to a short man crowing himself Emporer of America....thats when the fun starts.

Yes, but that's the chinese definition of the middle class, not the american definition.

And I would actually question your assertion that the chinese middle class has now exceeded, in number, the entire population of the US.

You're welcome to do your homework.

I for one will be departing in a few months for the zhongua renmin gonghe guo for probably a year, to come to know personally this next-great-power before I go off to law school.

The middle class will eventually decend into poverty and the rich will continue to grow ultra wealthy and uber powerful. The poor will continue to be abused, cheated, and taken advantage of at the hands of the rich and soon an aristochracy will be in place. Then, then, REVOLUTION! Then masses of the poor simply mob up, ravish the nation the likes have which have never been seen before, and kill everyone. The blood will flow in streams, the rich wont be able to defend themselves- the coup will be long and bloody and it will lead to a short man crowing himself Emporer of America....thats when the fun starts.

How juvenile and sophomoric a prediction...

You're welcome to do your homework.

I for one will be departing in a few months for the zhongua renmin gonghe guo for probably a year, to come to know personally this next-great-power before I go off to law school.

As I will, baak gwai.

I am just suggesting that the traditional anglo definition of the middle class is not applicable to the case in china.

And thank you for becoming a lawyer. Because the world needs another.

As I will, baak gwai.

I am just suggesting that the traditional anglo definition of the middle class is not applicable to the case in china.

And thank you for becoming a lawyer. Because the world needs another.

Where would we be without lawyers? 300 dollars an hour, and I'll tell you where :)

Where would we be without lawyers? 300 dollars an hour, and I'll tell you where :)

I can get that advice from india for $10 an hour.

Global wage arbitrage. The age of the american professional has come to an end.

The middle class will eventually decend into poverty and the rich will continue to grow ultra wealthy and uber powerful. The poor will continue to be abused, cheated, and taken advantage of at the hands of the rich and soon an aristochracy will be in place. Then, then, REVOLUTION! Then masses of the poor simply mob up, ravish the nation the likes have which have never been seen before, and kill everyone. The blood will flow in streams, the rich wont be able to defend themselves- the coup will be long and bloody and it will lead to a short man crowing himself Emporer of America....thats when the fun starts.

No Emperor's of America ... Period

I can get that advice from india for $10 an hour.

Global wage arbitrage. The age of the american professional has come to an end.


Don't worry India will soon raise their prices too :D

I think Class definitions are a very outdated set of destinctions steeped in too much 20th Century Marxist thought to be of any use today.

For example, the traditional definition of the Working Class is that class of people who must Work, or Starve. People do not starve in the industrialised developed nations, no matter how lazy they are, and so it does not really make sense to call anyone in the West 'Working Class'. So what? Are we all Middle Class? Surely its pretty absurd to be labled as being in the middle of something if you actually at the far end?

Of course, the Working Class have not disappeared. They have simply been outsourced. The Asians, and more widely the other peoples of the Developing World, are now the Global Working Class. The reality of Working Class exploitation that Marx observed has been internationalised, creating the rather absurd situation whereby the Middle Class Workers in the Developed World argue that outsourcing their jobs amounts to stealing from the Working Class, which, if you think about it, is a very hypocritical claim!

I find it ironic that China, which has totally abandoned almost all of its Communist convictions, is actually the most dedicated advocate the Working Class has ever had! Not when they politick and grandstand, but with their delicate trade negotiations - they have successfully lifted millions of people out of un/underemployment, and, ultimately, caused a rather large growth in the Global Middle Class.

No Emperor's of America ... Period
Emperor Norton (http://www.zpub.com/sf/history/nort.html) disagrees.

You're welcome to do your homework.

I for one will be departing in a few months for the zhongua renmin gonghe guo for probably a year, to come to know personally this next-great-power before I go off to law school.

It's an interesting place to say the least. I have been to Hong Kong and also crossed over to the mainland for a short time. They like to talk politics so it may be an interesting time for you. My favorite item I received on the mainland was from a child handing me a communist propaganda book. I was wearing a shirt that had a red star on it. The child took that as meaning communist China I think. He kept pointing at it and then he gave me the book. Thought it was strange however I show people the book whenever I talk about traveling there.

It's an interesting place to say the least. I have been to Hong Kong and also crossed over to the mainland for a short time. They like to talk politics so it may be an interesting time for you. My favorite item I received on the mainland was from a child handing me a communist propaganda book. I was wearing a shirt that had a red star on it. The child took that as meaning communist China I think. He kept pointing at it and then he gave me the book. Thought it was strange however I show people the book whenever I talk about traveling there.

I'm really looking forward to it, I'll be teaching english as a job and seeing what I can of the country in my free time.

Looks like I'll be in Guangdong, a few hours from HK, so I will definitely be spending time there.

It seems as though with the world being what it promises to be in the next few decades, with China on the constant ascent, it will be good to know a thing or two first hand about the place and people.

I can get that advice from india for $10 an hour.

Global wage arbitrage. The age of the american professional has come to an end.

Law has some special insulation I think, at least for good lawyers.

While indians or even d-i-y research in the age of the internet can bring down the cost of legal advice, the face-time with a jury that makes up trial law would probably not be so effective with heavily accented indians.

Also, the sort of taboo forces that keep the great majority big firm partners male and white will still be in effect when and if there is an influx of indians passing the bar.

Right, because the goverment wants their people to have power, and knowledge and all the good stuff that comes with the middle class, so that way they get to be kept in check and yadda yadda. :rolleyes:

They'd rather appease the rich folk, you know, the one's donating them the millions of bucks a year.

No, the evil government wants to propagate its global domination plan using its ultra-secret robot monkeys which will be constructed by the slaving working class and therefore they need to appease the middle class by pumping them full of drugs and sex so that they'll be so stoned that they will not be able to protest and then when the evil robot monkeys are ready to attack, the middle class will be destroyed, thus relegating the entire population of the United States into complete subjugation to the upper class capitalist corporations which control the government through their telekinesis.

It's the perfect plan. And we're all falling for it.

I think Class definitions are a very outdated set of destinctions steeped in too much 20th Century Marxist thought to be of any use today.

For example, the traditional definition of the Working Class is that class of people who must Work, or Starve. People do not starve in the industrialised developed nations, no matter how lazy they are, and so it does not really make sense to call anyone in the West 'Working Class'. So what? Are we all Middle Class? Surely its pretty absurd to be labled as being in the middle of something if you actually at the far end?

Of course, the Working Class have not disappeared. They have simply been outsourced. The Asians, and more widely the other peoples of the Developing World, are now the Global Working Class. The reality of Working Class exploitation that Marx observed has been internationalised, creating the rather absurd situation whereby the Middle Class Workers in the Developed World argue that outsourcing their jobs amounts to stealing from the Working Class, which, if you think about it, is a very hypocritical claim!

I find it ironic that China, which has totally abandoned almost all of its Communist convictions, is actually the most dedicated advocate the Working Class has ever had! Not when they politick and grandstand, but with their delicate trade negotiations - they have successfully lifted millions of people out of un/underemployment, and, ultimately, caused a rather large growth in the Global Middle Class.


Only because the american corporations moved their facilities to china, otherwise they would still be in the same shape they were before NAFTA.