NationStates Jolt Archive

Since there seems to be a few threads out there about how schools or other public facilities are banning words such as vagina, faggot, and so on, I thought I'd give my two cents on it.

1) It is ridiculous that they ban such words, as its against the 1st amendment, but acting out against in purposeful defiance does nothing for it. Go seek legal counseling.
2) Stop blowing these situations up. People and the media blow these things way up, and cause all this publicity, and that puts in the minds of twerps all across the nation that doing similar things will get them 15 mins of fame. That's what I believe all of this amounts too, getting name recognition.

And that's about it really.

Vagina is a perfectly valid medical term. What are doctors going to do now? Call it a... ehm... that thing, between your thighs?

Bah, people can't learn to control their language and people can't learn to not be control freaks. Put the two together and you get bannings!

Since there seems to be a few threads out there about how schools or other public facilities are banning words such as vagina, faggot, and so on, I thought I'd give my two cents on it.

1) It is ridiculous that they ban such words, as its against the 1st amendment, but acting out against in purposeful defiance does nothing for it. Go seek legal counseling.
2) Stop blowing these situations up. People and the media blow these things way up, and cause all this publicity, and that puts in the minds of twerps all across the nation that doing similar things will get them 15 mins of fame. That's what I believe all of this amounts too, getting name recognition.

And that's about it really.

Bah banning censorship, whats that about anyway?

Vagina is a perfectly valid medical term. What are doctors going to do now? Call it a... ehm... that thing, between your thighs?

Bah, people can't learn to control their language and people can't learn to not be control freaks. Put the two together and you get bannings!

The incident happened in a school, it had nothing to do with a medical facility. The doctors can still say vagina if they choose so. The point is that the girls openly disobeyed school officials in school. Thats means for punishment. What if I stood up and called the principal a C#ck sucking F@ggot Mother F*cker? Should I, or shouldn't I be punished?

The incident happened in a school, it had nothing to do with a medical facility. The doctors can still say vagina if they choose so. The point is that the girls openly disobeyed school officials in school. Thats means for punishment. What if I stood up and called the principal a C#ck sucking F@ggot Mother F*cker? Should I, or shouldn't I be punished?


Naaa the point is how stupid is it to ban the proper term for something?

What next you can't say metatersil?

What next you can't say metatersil?

No, you can't say that. Were you trying to write "metatarsal"?

No, you can't say that. Were you trying to write "metatarsal"?

Exactly and thanks:D

The incident happened in a school, it had nothing to do with a medical facility. The doctors can still say vagina if they choose so. The point is that the girls openly disobeyed school officials in school. Thats means for punishment. What if I stood up and called the principal a C#ck sucking F@ggot Mother F*cker? Should I, or shouldn't I be punished?

I know it happened in a school.

But imagine if it became, you know, actually widespread.

It does seem to be doing exactly that with a great number of words, where the states are beginning to consider banning words. Heck, New York city is banning words.

So, since it's the new fad, and since states and large cities are doing it, then I wouldn't be surprised if it began to spread. I wouldn't bet on it though, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Since there seems to be a few threads out there about how schools or other public facilities are banning words such as vagina, faggot, and so on, I thought I'd give my two cents on it.

1) It is ridiculous that they ban such words, as its against the 1st amendment, but acting out against in purposeful defiance does nothing for it. Go seek legal counseling.
2) Stop blowing these situations up. People and the media blow these things way up, and cause all this publicity, and that puts in the minds of twerps all across the nation that doing similar things will get them 15 mins of fame. That's what I believe all of this amounts too, getting name recognition.

And that's about it really.
Oh boy. Pay attention.

1) Nobody wanted to ban "faggot". You got that one confused with "that's so gay", which spawned the respective thread but was also not banned. The school in question merely reprimanded the girl who said it for saying it because they considered it offensive (which it is) and against school rules (which it was).

2) I'm with you on suspending the girls mentioned in the other thread for using "vagina". That's ridiculous and censorship.

3) You're doing nobody a favour in mixing the two together. One is an insult, one is a neutral word. One is what political pundits can happily say on national TV, the other is what kids get suspended for reading from a play. Logical, isn't it?

4) "Stop blowing things up"? So you mean nobody should have said anything about that school suspending those girls? About Coulter calling Edwards a "faggot"?

Naaa the point is how stupid is it to ban the proper term for something?

What next you can't say metatersil?

Whether or not the rule is stupid or not is irrelevant. the point is that there is a rule, and its to be obeyed. What if I believe that stopping at a stop sign is ridiculously idiotic? Should I just blaze right through it?

Oh boy. Pay attention.

1) Nobody wanted to ban "faggot". You got that one confused with "that's so gay", which spawned the respective thread but was also not banned. The school in question merely reprimanded the girl who said it for saying it because they considered it offensive (which it is) and against school rules (which it was).

2) I'm with you on suspending the girls mentioned in the other thread for using "vagina". That's ridiculous and censorship.

3) You're doing nobody a favour in mixing the two together. One is an insult, one is a neutral word. One is what political pundits can happily say on national TV, the other is what kids get suspended for reading from a play. Logical, isn't it?

4) "Stop blowing things up"? So you mean nobody should have said anything about that school suspending those girls? About Coulter calling Edwards a "faggot"?


Umm your first point.

What is so bad about insulting somebody? If somebody said 'That's gay' perhaps it was meant as an insult?

It's like calling somebody an arsehole.

Yes I guess it may be seen as derogertory to some gay people to call somebody gay as an insult, but should people ot be free to think, what they like and say what they like?

Oh boy. Pay attention.

1) Nobody wanted to ban "faggot". You got that one confused with "that's so gay", which spawned the respective thread but was also not banned. The school in question merely reprimanded the girl who said it for saying it because they considered it offensive (which it is) and against school rules (which it was).

2) I'm with you on suspending the girls mentioned in the other thread for using "vagina". That's ridiculous and censorship.

3) You're doing nobody a favour in mixing the two together. One is an insult, one is a neutral word. One is what political pundits can happily say on national TV, the other is what kids get suspended for reading from a play. Logical, isn't it?

4) "Stop blowing things up"? So you mean nobody should have said anything about that school suspending those girls? About Coulter calling Edwards a "faggot"?

My bad on the the first part. and i guess I agree with point 3, but number 4 is where I disagree. So what if Ann Coulter calling John Edwards a fag? Does that impact my life directly at all? Does it even impact your life? But once again it shows that the media blows everything up, and consequently people are catching on to it, and thus they are continuing to do more and more "shocking things"

The incident happened in a school, it had nothing to do with a medical facility. The doctors can still say vagina if they choose so. The point is that the girls openly disobeyed school officials in school. Thats means for punishment. What if I stood up and called the principal a C#ck sucking F@ggot Mother F*cker? Should I, or shouldn't I be punished?

You agree that they were rightfully punished for saying "vagina"?

And now you're saying it's right up there with calling someone a "cock sucking faggot mother fucker"?

Whether or not the rule is stupid or not is irrelevant. the point is that there is a rule, and its to be obeyed. What if I believe that stopping at a stop sign is ridiculously idiotic? Should I just blaze right through it?
So if your friendly neighborhood library decides to ban Harry Potter, Judy Blume books or The Catcher in the Rye, as many esp. in the bible belt have done, you just sit and nod because it's their rules?

The incident happened in a school, it had nothing to do with a medical facility. The doctors can still say vagina if they choose so. The point is that the girls openly disobeyed school officials in school. Thats means for punishment. What if I stood up and called the principal a C#ck sucking F@ggot Mother F*cker? Should I, or shouldn't I be punished?

Wouldn't the real issue be if you called the principal an "oral sex-receiving homosexual engaging in intercourse with his mother"?

Whether or not the rule is stupid or not is irrelevant. the point is that there is a rule, and its to be obeyed. What if I believe that stopping at a stop sign is ridiculously idiotic? Should I just blaze right through it?

Nope the point is that stupid rules should be broken to show their stupidity. And Censorship is such a rule.

Stoping at a stop sign is not however a stupid rule. Any form of censorship is.

Vagina is a perfectly valid medical term. What are doctors going to do now? Call it a... ehm... that thing, between your thighs?

Front bum!

--

The "faggot" thing I do find amusing, because using the word as an insulting term for homosexual seems to be an American invention, and isn't really common here. To me, they're usually a foodstuff (or an archaic term for a bunch of sticks). I like Mr. Brain's Faggots. They're tasty.

Front bum!

--

The "faggot" thing I do find amusing, because using the word as an insulting term for homosexual seems to be an American invention, and isn't really common here. To me, they're usually a foodstuff (or an archaic term for a bunch of sticks). I like Mr. Brain's Faggots. They're tasty.

Ummm pork and liver rolled up into balls and covered with gravey! Yummy!

So if your friendly neighborhood library decides to ban Harry Potter, Judy Blume books or The Catcher in the Rye, as many esp. in the bible belt have done, you just sit and nod because it's their rules?

Their library, their rules essentially. If you don't like it there's a democratic process there for you to use to get it changed. If the majority of people don't want it changed then welcome to democracy.

Nope the point is that stupid rules should be broken to show their stupidity. And Censorship is such a rule.

Stoping at a stop sign is not however a stupid rule. Any form of censorship is.
You should try and use official channels to change them first. Civil disobedience is the last step, not the first. And you can't have students deciding what rules to follow, inmates running the asylum etc.

Is censorship stupid: Yes, absolutely. But you can't have each student arbitrarily deciding which rules are stupid etc. Especially if they've ignored the channels to try and change it.

I know it happened in a school.

But imagine if it became, you know, actually widespread.

It does seem to be doing exactly that with a great number of words, where the states are beginning to consider banning words. Heck, New York city is banning words.

So, since it's the new fad, and since states and large cities are doing it, then I wouldn't be surprised if it began to spread. I wouldn't bet on it though, but I wouldn't be surprised.

You actually proved my second point in a way. "Its the new fad", well why is it the new fad? because everyone is making a big deal about it. If you just ignore the arseholes making stupid rules, then these stupid ideas will fad away.

I'll give you an example of what I mean. There was this bully on my school bus when I was like 10 or so, and with my last name being Pigg, I got tons of hell from him. You see, he didn't like me at all. I was the quiet, but smart kid that liked to correct people. Well this kid hated me for that. He always was trying to get me to fight him, because he knew that he could probably kick my arse, as he was twice my size, and like 3 years older than me(I guess he was in my grade because he was held back?) Well, he'd always call me names in order to try and get a response out of me. But since I just ignored him, he eventually stopped altogether. So what I am saying is that these people are making outrageous decisions so that they can get people riled up, and get publicity, but if we ignore them, then they will be like that jerk off on my bus and eventually stop.

What if I stood up and called the principal a C#ck sucking F@ggot Mother F*cker? Should I, or shouldn't I be punished?
So you are equating using bastardized words designed to be offensive in order to insult one to using the medical, and correct, terminology for a body part? You fail at life. Go get sterilized so you can't pass on such ridiculous bullshit to the future generations.

Ummm pork and liver rolled up into balls and covered with gravey! Yummy!

Yep :D

Their library, their rules essentially. If you don't like it there's a democratic process there for you to use to get it changed. If the majority of people don't want it changed then welcome to democracy.

Tyranny by the majority is still tyranny, especially when it is used to enforce something that is wrong.

Whether or not the rule is stupid or not is irrelevant. the point is that there is a rule, and its to be obeyed. What if I believe that stopping at a stop sign is ridiculously idiotic? Should I just blaze right through it?

Whether or not a rule is stupid is always relevant. Too many people try to make too many rules for other people (no one ever seems to want rules for controlling themselves :rolleyes: ). The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

Is censorship stupid: Yes, absolutely. But you can't have each student arbitrarily deciding which rules are stupid etc. Especially if they've ignored the channels to try and change it.

Ahhhh there I'm afriad we'll have to disagree. Look back in history about civil disabediance, I say cut out the wasted years and get right down to the thing we know works.:D

As for students, sheesh show me one that has never pushed against the system?

Umm your first point.

What is so bad about insulting somebody? If somebody said 'That's gay' perhaps it was meant as an insult?

It's like calling somebody an arsehole.

Yes I guess it may be seen as derogertory to some gay people to call somebody gay as an insult, but should people ot be free to think, what they like and say what they like?

Here's a quote from the article (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17388702/) on the event that started all the discussion here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=519489): But school officials say they took a strict stand against the putdown after two boys were paid to beat up a gay student the year before.

"The district has a statutory duty to protect gay students from harassment," the district's lawyers argued in a legal brief. "In furtherance of this goal, prohibition of the phrase 'That's so gay' ... was a reasonable regulation."
People can think what they want, there's no thought police, but no, people can most certainly not say what they want without having to deal with the consequences.
If I insult you, you're free to drag me before court and sue. If I insult you while in school, university or the work place, and in such a manner that the school, university or work place consider "hate speech" or at least endangerment to specific groups of students/workers because of the message it carries, then the school, university or work place can reprimand me as they see fit.


My bad on the the first part. and i guess I agree with point 3, but number 4 is where I disagree. So what if Ann Coulter calling John Edwards a fag? Does that impact my life directly at all? Does it even impact your life? But once again it shows that the media blows everything up, and consequently people are catching on to it, and thus they are continuing to do more and more "shocking things"Wow. So I can't speak out against anything that does not impact my life directly?

Death penalty? Drunk driving? Abortion? The war in Iraq? Drug policy? Religion? I could spend hours making a list of things I apparently can't comment on because they don't impact my life directly.

Surely that can't be what you mean.

So if your friendly neighborhood library decides to ban Harry Potter, Judy Blume books or The Catcher in the Rye, as many esp. in the bible belt have done, you just sit and nod because it's their rules?

Thats what the legal system is for. Take it to court or talk to your representative. I think thats the way we should go about things, instead of out right defiance, unless as I said in the other thread its a rule that is causing bodily harm to people. Banning a book, while bad and against the constitution, is not going to cause the world to fall apart.

Tyranny by the majority is still tyranny, especially when it is used to enforce something that is wrong.


Aahahh yep but that is democracy, as somebody once said you can't make all of the people happy, all of the time(perhaps)

For every democratic ruleing here will be those that oppose it, but what in your opinion is a better way?

Their library, their rules essentially. If you don't like it there's a democratic process there for you to use to get it changed. If the majority of people don't want it changed then welcome to democracy.
Exactly.

Which is why I'm asking Zilam if he would not, considering the money for public libraries comes from his own taxpayer's pocket, want to get these rules changed.

just ban talking and writing that would fix it all
:rolleyes: that side of the world going nuts

So you are equating using bastardized words designed to be offensive in order to insult one to using the medical, and correct, terminology for a body part? You fail at life. Go get sterilized so you can't pass on such ridiculous bullshit to the future generations.

The point was to show that I was breaking the rules of the school. If I had said those words, and they weren't against the rules, then everything is ok. But since they are against the rules, I deserved to be punished accordingly.

If I insult you, you're free to drag me before court and sue. If I insult you while in school, university or the work place, and in such a manner that the school, university or work place consider "hate speech" or at least endangerment to specific groups of students/workers because of the message it carries, then the school, university or work place can reprimand me as they see fit.

Wow people can actulay sue people for being insulted? Shit that's it, please stop the world I want to get off now.

That is absolute madness.

Do you know what I do when some bodyinsults me?

One of two things, first it's a word, what actual harm can that do me, so enveriably 'I choose to take no offense' and let them get on with it.

Or,

I just call them a ****!

Remember if you don't want to be insulted, just choose not to be, it's that easy, insult is never given, it can only be taken.

Aahahh yep but that is democracy, as somebody once said you can't make all of the people happy, all of the time(perhaps)

For every democratic ruleing here will be those that oppose it, but what in your opinion is a better way?

It depends on how the democracy is set up. I kind of like Robert Heinlein's take from The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. Two legislative bodies. In one, they make laws, requiring a 2/3 majority. In the other, they unmake laws, requiring a 1/3 minority. Nice idea, probably never happen :(

Exactly.

Which is why I'm asking Zilam if he would not, considering the money for public libraries comes from his own taxpayer's pocket, want to get these rules changed.

And I said, you want a rule changed, go through the system. Thats what it is there for. You want to have a certain book in the library, and they ban it, then you go to them first. If they refuse, then talk to your rep. or talk to a lawyer.

Thats what the legal system is for. Take it to court or talk to your representative. I think thats the way we should go about things, instead of out right defiance, unless as I said in the other thread its a rule that is causing bodily harm to people. Banning a book, while bad and against the constitution, is not going to cause the world to fall apart.
And I said, you want a rule changed, go through the system. Thats what it is there for. You want to have a certain book in the library, and they ban it, then you go to them first. If they refuse, then talk to your rep. or talk to a lawyer.

So the NY girls should have sat there and stayed mum and then took the school to court or written their representative?

They were willing to take the punishment and they did it to draw attention to the fact they were being censored by the school. This is not a case where the rules of the school were making any sense to begin with.

So say your university came up with a policy tomorrow to, say, ban people from mentioning religion on campus, at all.

Would you shut up, start writing to your representative and prepare the lawsuit? Or would you proudly keep professing your faith and organize a protest rallye?

Please tell me it's the latter.

And I said, you want a rule changed, go through the system. Thats what it is there for. You want to have a certain book in the library, and they ban it, then you go to them first. If they refuse, then talk to your rep. or talk to a lawyer.

Unfortunately, there is no "system" for students to remove a misguided principal, at least not in any timeframe that would make a difference for them. In this particular case, I applaud them for their defiance, and support them in their search for mitigation of their punishment. There are no general answers. Everything is in the particular.

The point was to show that I was breaking the rules of the school.
You see this orange? It's orange, it's round, and it grows on a tree. It's a duck. A duck, not a fucking orange, dumbass.

That was the relevancy of your argument. Defying common decency and breaking an arbitrary rule devised by puritan dumbasses are two different things entirely.

So the NY girls should have sat there and stayed mum and then took the school to court or written their representative?

They were willing to take the punishment and they did it to draw attention to the fact they were being censored by the school. This is not a case where the rules of the school were making any sense to begin with.

So say your university came up with a policy tomorrow to, say, ban people from mentioning religion on campus, at all.

Would you shut up, start writing to your representative and prepare the lawsuit? Or would you proudly keep professing your faith and organize a protest rallye?

Please tell me it's the latter.

Well, honestly, I'd be pretty peeved. And really, i'd prolly be outraged to the point where i'd speak up. In what way, I don't know. It hasn't happened to me so I can't tell you how I'd react. I'd like to be civilised about it, and all, but I don't know.

So the NY girls should have sat there and stayed mum and then took the school to court or written their representative?

They were willing to take the punishment and they did it to draw attention to the fact they were being censored by the school. This is not a case where the rules of the school were making any sense to begin with.

So say your university came up with a policy tomorrow to, say, ban people from mentioning religion on campus, at all.

Would you shut up, start writing to your representative and prepare the lawsuit? Or would you proudly keep professing your faith and organize a protest rallye?

Please tell me it's the latter.

Well if it is a rule, he should follow it, right? You have a TG.

Well, honestly, I'd be pretty peeved. And really, i'd prolly be outraged to the point where i'd speak up. In what way, I don't know. It hasn't happened to me so I can't tell you how I'd react. I'd like to be civilised about it, and all, but I don't know.
See?

And the point is that there *is* no intrinsic value in shutting up about it. You *should* be speaking up.

You see this orange? It's orange, it's round, and it grows on a tree. It's a duck. A duck, not a fucking orange, dumbass.

That was the relevancy of your argument. Defying common decency and breaking an arbitrary rule devised by puritan dumbasses are two different things entirely.


You didn't have to call me a dumbass :(

The incident happened in a school, it had nothing to do with a medical facility. The doctors can still say vagina if they choose so. The point is that the girls openly disobeyed school officials in school. Thats means for punishment. What if I stood up and called the principal a C#ck sucking F@ggot Mother F*cker? Should I, or shouldn't I be punished?

Name-calling is rather different from reading a poem at an open-mic reading, don't you think?

Whether or not the rule is stupid or not is irrelevant. the point is that there is a rule, and its to be obeyed.

Interesting. So any rule should be followed, simply by virtue of it being a rule? Guess those blacks should have just shut up and dealt with segregation. After all, it was the rules!

You didn't have to call me a dumbass :(

I wasn't calling you a dumbass, it was part of the skit.

I did, however, call the school administration dumbasses.

And I said, you want a rule changed, go through the system. Thats what it is there for. You want to have a certain book in the library, and they ban it, then you go to them first. If they refuse, then talk to your rep. or talk to a lawyer.

Just how much power do you think a student has to change or even challenge the rules at a school? The answer, quite simply put, is none. They can bitch and moan and whine if they so choose, but nothing they do will change the rules.

If, on the other hand, they make the stupidity of the rule obvious, then those who do have the power to make change will likely speak up.

It's, in a way, much like the civil rights movement. People broke the rules there, too. They organized sit-ins and such. And they got beat up for it, taken to jail, fined, etc. And the rest of the world looked at that and though, "Damn, they're getting punished for that? They're just sitting there being peaceable!" And change was begun....

I wasn't calling you a dumbass, it was part of the skit.

I did, however, call the school administration dumbasses.

Oh. Its not like I cared either way. I mean, I wasn't going to go run and tattle on you :p


Just how much power do you think a student has to change or even challenge the rules at a school? The answer, quite simply put, is none. They can bitch and moan and whine if they so choose, but nothing they do will change the rules.

If, on the other hand, they make the stupidity of the rule obvious, then those who do have the power to make change will likely speak up.

It's, in a way, much like the civil rights movement. People broke the rules there, too. They organized sit-ins and such. And they got beat up for it, taken to jail, fined, etc. And the rest of the world looked at that and though, "Damn, they're getting punished for that? They're just sitting there being peaceable!" And change was begun....

I agree with part of your statement. And I think I made it clear from the get go that if its something thats stopping people from living a normal, or better life, or if it causes harm, then people should fight the law. However, it was in school, didn't harm anyone, and so forth.

Oh and things can get changed at school. We had a ban on gum and hats that we had lifted after all the students signed a petition to the school board. It wasn't too hard to change the rules.

Damn it, first they ban hate speech, next it's love speech, soon they'll be after "the" and "and".
It's the deaf-mutes behind this conspiracy, mark my words.

Damn it, first they ban hate speech, next it's love speech, soon they'll be after "the" and "and".
It's the deaf-mutes behind this conspiracy, mark my words.

No, it's deaf-mute zionists! They start by banning anti-semetic language. Today's is taking away the word vagina, tomorrow the world! :p

Forsakia, so much of what you have said is ignorant and incorrect that I need to deal with it bit by bit, so here goes.

Their library, their rules essentially. If you don't like it there's a democratic process there for you to use to get it changed. If the majority of people don't want it changed then welcome to democracy.
No, welcome to bureaucracy. If a bureaucrat doesn't want something to succeed, it won't. It's like despotism except legal-looking.

You should try and use official channels to change them first. Civil disobedience is the last step, not the first. And you can't have students deciding what rules to follow, inmates running the asylum etc.
Your analogy is incorrect. Students are lucid, and sometimes even more lucid than some US senators.

Is censorship stupid: Yes, absolutely. But you can't have each student arbitrarily deciding which rules are stupid etc. Especially if they've ignored the channels to try and change it.
Like several of the people above have noted, there ARE no channels to change it. Bureaucracy, bureaucracy!

I would love to see what all these people who say "follow the rules because they're rules" would say if there was all of the sudden a "rule" that said they needed to be castrated for their own good... How many would simply say "Gladly sir! If you say it's a rule for my own good!"?

I agree with part of your statement. And I think I made it clear from the get go that if its something thats stopping people from living a normal, or better life, or if it causes harm, then people should fight the law. However, it was in school, didn't harm anyone, and so forth.

Didn't harm anyone? Of course it harmed someone. The school was perpetuating exactly the type of harmful attitude that The Vagina Monologues are supposed to combat. These girls stood up against that harmful attitude and demonstrated just how stupid it really is.

Oh and things can get changed at school. We had a ban on gum and hats that we had lifted after all the students signed a petition to the school board. It wasn't too hard to change the rules.

Yes, your petition really changed the rules. :rolleyes:

Students around the country sign petitions every day. As a general rule, they do jack-shit. It sounds more like these were rules that the administration didn't really care about in the first place, so they pacified you by changing them.