NationStates Jolt Archive

(let's face it, that's mostly the point of starting threads like these)

I have previously had discussions with my husband's family about their screwed up views of gender roles, and they tried to comply, but two days ago, I was over at their house and a few of them made very racist comments in front of my kids, I told them that I didn't think that was an acceptable attitude and that they should not say things like that around me or my children. I am now afraid to let my kids see them when I am not around because if they are going to say things like that.......I don't want my kids to have to hear it.

Hubby supports me, but of course his family is all "you need to chill out, you are too feminist/PC" and they think I am being a bitch. I think they are sexist, racist homophobes, and I don't think that I am wrong to try to shelter my kids from that stuff until they are old enough to figure out that people who say things like that are idiots.

In the interest of full disclosure the following statements were made (maybe I am over-reacting, which is why I post the actual comments)

"Girls shouldn't play with cars"
"Girls shouldn't have short hair"
"Boys shouldn't cook"

then, I bought my girls some dolls, they wanted "boy barbies" so I got them some, and they are black.........I didn't think anything of it, other than the white 'boy barbies' had surf shorts on and the black ones had jeans, and I thought the outfit was better.......because I am superficial I guess. Anyway, they said (this was two days ago)

"you need to take those back, before the girls start to think that's natural"

:eek:

I inquired as to what they meant by "think that's natural" and they said "you know blacks and white mixing together"

:mad:

I really really really really really don't ever want to even see these people again, much less have them around my children.....

am I right? should I shelter my kids from this? is it just as bad for me to shelter them from views I don't like, as it is for my in-laws not to want them to play with brown barbies?

I inquired as to what they meant by "think that's natural" and they said "you know blacks and white mixing together"

That's actually pretty shocking (to me at least). It's amazing what a generation difference can do...

You are right, and your in-laws are made of fail. But your kids are probably far too smart to ever believe it's not natural for blacks and whites to mix.

I'd say the primary deciding factor in whether or not you're overreacting is how old your children are. Note: I'm not a parent, I know nothing about parenting, so my advice may be better to discount if it doesn't make sense to you. But I think that if your kids are older than 11-12, they probably hear some of this stupid stuff at school as it is, and it's not as big a deal. Your husband's family is a bunch of racist pricks, but you have to just talk to your kids and tell them that what they say isn't true, and is fairly stupid.

Any younger than that, and I'd say yes, go ahead and shelter them, because they're not mentally or emotionally ready to deal with issues of racism and sexism.

(let's face it, that's mostly the point of starting threads like these)

I have previously had discussions with my husband's family about their screwed up views of gender roles, and they tried to comply, but two days ago, I was over at their house and a few of them made very racist comments in front of my kids, I told them that I didn't think that was an acceptable attitude and that they should not say things like that around me or my children. I am now afraid to let my kids see them when I am not around because if they are going to say things like that.......I don't want my kids to have to hear it.

Hubby supports me, but of course his family is all "you need to chill out, you are too feminist/PC" and they think I am being a bitch. I think they are sexist, racist homophobes, and I don't think that I am wrong to try to shelter my kids from that stuff until they are old enough to figure out that people who say things like that are idiots.

In the interest of full disclosure the following statements were made (maybe I am over-reacting, which is why I post the actual comments)

"Girls shouldn't play with cars"
"Girls shouldn't have short hair"
"Boys shouldn't cook"

then, I bought my girls some dolls, they wanted "boy barbies" so I got them some, and they are black.........I didn't think anything of it, other than the white 'boy barbies' had surf shorts on and the black ones had jeans, and I thought the outfit was better.......because I am superficial I guess. Anyway, they said (this was two days ago)

"you need to take those back, before the girls start to think that's natural"

:eek:

I inquired as to what they meant by "think that's natural" and they said "you know blacks and white mixing together"

:mad:

I really really really really really don't ever want to even see these people again, much less have them around my children.....

am I right? should I shelter my kids from this? is it just as bad for me to shelter them from views I don't like, as it is for my in-laws not to want them to play with brown barbies?

You are both right. You are intitled to what you expose you're children to, but by not showing them that people can be bad, and how this can be countered I fear you do more harm than good. Plus you do really need to chill out a bit.

I'd say the primary deciding factor in whether or not you're overreacting is how old your children are. Note: I'm not a parent, I know nothing about parenting, so my advice may be better to discount if it doesn't make sense to you. But I think that if your kids are older than 11-12, they probably hear some of this stupid stuff at school as it is, and it's not as big a deal. Your husband's family is a bunch of racist pricks, but you have to just talk to your kids and tell them that what they say isn't true, and is fairly stupid.

Any younger than that, and I'd say yes, go ahead and shelter them, because they're not mentally or emotionally ready to deal with issues of racism and sexism.

they are 3 and 5.

they are 3 and 5.

Oh.

Oh yeah, then. Yeah, don't let your kids near those racists.

You are both right. You are intitled to what you expose you're children to, but by not showing them that people can be bad, and how this can be countered I fear you do more harm than good. Plus you do really need to chill out a bit.

is that a lesson they really need to learn from relatives though?

is that a lesson they really need to learn from relatives though?

Heh family you can't choose so, really, they will teach you lessons both good and bad.

You need to laugh at the idiots in a suitably derisive manner.

(let's face it, that's mostly the point of starting threads like these)

I have previously had discussions with my husband's family about their screwed up views of gender roles, and they tried to comply, but two days ago, I was over at their house and a few of them made very racist comments in front of my kids, I told them that I didn't think that was an acceptable attitude and that they should not say things like that around me or my children. I am now afraid to let my kids see them when I am not around because if they are going to say things like that.......I don't want my kids to have to hear it.

Hubby supports me, but of course his family is all "you need to chill out, you are too feminist/PC" and they think I am being a bitch. I think they are sexist, racist homophobes, and I don't think that I am wrong to try to shelter my kids from that stuff until they are old enough to figure out that people who say things like that are idiots.

In the interest of full disclosure the following statements were made (maybe I am over-reacting, which is why I post the actual comments)

"Girls shouldn't play with cars"
"Girls shouldn't have short hair"
"Boys shouldn't cook"

then, I bought my girls some dolls, they wanted "boy barbies" so I got them some, and they are black.........I didn't think anything of it, other than the white 'boy barbies' had surf shorts on and the black ones had jeans, and I thought the outfit was better.......because I am superficial I guess. Anyway, they said (this was two days ago)

"you need to take those back, before the girls start to think that's natural"

:eek:

I inquired as to what they meant by "think that's natural" and they said "you know blacks and white mixing together"

:mad:

I really really really really really don't ever want to even see these people again, much less have them around my children.....

am I right? should I shelter my kids from this? is it just as bad for me to shelter them from views I don't like, as it is for my in-laws not to want them to play with brown barbies?

I think they're the ones that need to grow up. My father cooks for us because my mother hates to cook. And those racist comments are way out of line. Maybe they should say that in the city and see where that leads them. Nowhere good that's for sure.

You have every right to protect your children from malicious, unfounded hatred, homophobia, racism and sexism. Young children are unable to understand the full gravity of the situation (unless it's explained to them) and may wonder why people say those things and mommy and daddy are telling these people not to.

If these people can't respect your wishes when around your children then they shouldn't be around your children. They have shown that they are unable to act in a manner that is positive and nurturing.

Even if your children were older, I would still not think you're overreating. You have a right to keep your family separate from those who spew such hatred. But, at least if the children were older, you could explain it to them, and the children would likely understand your side and would not want to be in the presence of such people.

Blood relations is not an open ticket to be a jackass.

:eek: Holy crap. :mad:

am I right? Of course you are.
should I shelter my kids from this?Yes!
is it just as bad for me to shelter them from views I don't like, as it is for my in-laws not to want them to play with brown barbies?Hell no!

This is not a first amendment debate, this is about your 3 and 5 year old kids growing up among people teaching them to be racist and sexist (no matter if they think about it and do it intentional or if it comes "natural" :rolleyes: - after all, do you want your kids to become people to whom stuff like that comes "naturally"? No? Didn't think so.) They're already exposed to "different ideas and views" in their life and will be for as long as they live, I really don't think that has to include being told now that black and white people can't mix and you can't play with toy cars. :rolleyes:

Here, a fortifying, righteous fluffle. :fluffle:

is that a lesson they really need to learn from relatives though?

Why not? Use it as a teaching opportunity. "Grandma and Grandpa grew up in a different time, when people believed those awful things," etc. The earlier they learn that such views are the result of ignorance, the better.

You're the mother, your husband supports you - you seem fine.

3 and 5 are delightful ages

Wait til they're 14, this is the least of your worries

I think you're perfectly within your rights to keep your kids away from Those People as much as you can. How you'd do that is another question, Smunkee. But yeah, they don't need to hear crap like that. Some of it was humorous, though. Until relatively recently, the most famous chefs were men, Laura Bush has shortish hair (doesn't come to her shoulders) and they never heard of Danica What's-Her-Name? As for brown Barbies, well, you should have seen that one coming.

I'm always reminded of the scene in South Pacific where Nellie Forbush found herself reacting badly to Emile de Becque's half-Polynesian children. She tells Lt. Joe Cable, who's in love with a Polynesian girl himself, that her attitude must just be born in her. He says, no, it's not born in you, it happens after you're born, and goes on to that wonderful song, "You've Got To Be Carefully Taught (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You%27ve_Got_to_Be_Carefully_Taught)." And it's true, kids don't discriminate on their own, but they'll pick up the attitudes of the adults around them in an instant. I'm sure you know, kids naturally want to please adults - more or less - and once they figure out what the adults think about other people, those attitudes become their attitudes.

So, have courage! And keep teaching your children ... oooh, another song reference there, but I'll be good and restrain myself.

I think they're the ones that need to grow up. My father cooks for us because my mother hates to cook. And those racist comments are way out of line. Maybe they should say that in the city and see where that leads them. Nowhere good that's for sure.
my husband cooks for us when I am working, he does laundry, he used to change diapers, and he plays barbies with them........I think that bothers his family.....almost as much as it bothers them that I am the one rebuilding the Jeep.



You have every right to protect your children from malicious, unfounded hatred, homophobia, racism and sexism. Young children are unable to understand the full gravity of the situation (unless it's explained to them) and may wonder why people say those things and mommy and daddy are telling these people not to.

If these people can't respect your wishes when around your children then they shouldn't be around your children. They have shown that they are unable to act in a manner that is positive and nurturing.

Even if your children were older, I would still not think you're overreating. You have a right to keep your family separate from those who spew such hatred. But, at least if the children were older, you could explain it to them, and the children would likely understand your side and would not want to be in the presence of such people.

Blood relations is not an open ticket to be a jackass.

that's what I thought.



This is not a first amendment debate, this is about your 3 and 5 year old kids growing up among people teaching them to be racist and sexist (no matter if they think about it and do it intentional or if it comes "natural" :rolleyes: - after all, do you want your kids to become people to whom stuff like that comes "naturally"? No? Didn't think so.) They're already exposed to "different ideas and views" in their life and will be for as long as they live, I really don't think that has to include being told now that black and white people can't mix and you can't play with toy cars. :rolleyes:

Here, a fortifying, righteous fluffle. :fluffle:

:fluffle:

Your in-laws have no business telling you how to raise your kids, and less business trying to make them stupid. On the other hand your Husband seems to be sensible enough, so maybe the in-laws aren't that influential.

Your in-laws have no business telling you how to raise your kids, and less business trying to make them stupid. On the other hand your Husband seems to be sensible enough, so maybe the in-laws aren't that influential.

Or her husband's the smart one in that family.

Take heart and know that they your children will listen to you and your husband more than they will internalize those attitudes that they run into once in a blue moon. I’d limit time with them, of course, but if they’re family you might not be able to totally eliminate contact. I think it’s wholly appropriate if you need to be around them to call out those attitudes as nonsense – all it takes is a moment to turn to your kids and say “Of course boys can cook – remember that great breakfast you made with daddy? Now go outside and play.” Your children will learn to recognize such rudeness as ignorance really fast.

I don’t think you need to wait until they are a certain age, though. I’ve raised my kids with the attitude that if they’re old enough to ask about something, they’re old enough to (generally speaking) know the answer. Mine are on the cusp of turning 8 and 5 and even they know that there are people out there who say hurtful things based on race or gender, but that those people are simply wrong. When my son was thinking about following his big sister in taking ballet and his friend said “that’s for girls!” he replied “Have you ever seen ballet? Who do you think lifts the girls up into the air!”)

Your in-laws have no business telling you how to raise your kids, and less business trying to make them stupid. On the other hand your Husband seems to be sensible enough, so maybe the in-laws aren't that influential.

he grew up mostly with his dad, this is his mom's side.

His dad would never say such idiotic things.

am I right? should I shelter my kids from this? is it just as bad for me to shelter them from views I don't like, as it is for my in-laws not to want them to play with brown barbies?
It's a tough call. My instinct is to say that sheltering kids in general is a bad idea, because the world is a tough place, and you're certainly not preparing them for it by hiding the badness from them. If you overdo it, they wind up leaving home and discovering that the world would just as soon kick them in the face as anything else, and that's a tough lesson to learn on your own.

That said, I see no reason to seek out that company anymore, as much for your own sanity as your childrens'. It already sounds like your husband is feeling uncomfortable about the relationship between you and them, so you shold probably talk to him about it first. I know from experience that it's hardest dealing with matters of racism and sexism when it's a family member, especially of a partner, because they automatically feel defensive. They say "he's not a bad guy" even when they know he's acting in a racist manner, and they may be right--but it's painful dealing with their racism, and perhaps their own that they've been battling.

Good luck with it.

Wow. I love to hate people like your in-laws.

However, I'm not sure that it's really necessary to try and protect your girls from their attitude. Your girls are pretty clever overall from what you told us about them so far (and I do wonder sometimes if there's anything you haven't told us about them yet ;)), and attitudes like that will most likely just glide off them. At most, it'll infuriate them. Why? Because the logical consequences of applying those attitudes to their own lifes would mean giving up a lot of their very own freedoms and liberties, and kids will ALWAYS defend those with teeth and claws ;)

If I think back to my own childhood, my mother's parents were kind of similar, although not quite as extreme as your people sound. They were staunch Catholics who refused to eat meat on Fridays. I remember thinking that was ridiculous as early as age 4. And not just cause mom told me, but because I saw no logical reason why I should not get my favourite dish when visiting my gran on Fridays.
My grandfather is a convinced conservative, and I hated his guts for his attitudes for as long as I can remember, and that was way before I was even aware what politics meant. He would often get into heated discussions with both of his children, who are both supporters of the Green Party, and both as liberal and social as they come, and I would invariably take their side. Maybe not so much because their side was always right, but simply because they would always have logical reasons to back up their arguments. He rarely had that.

Kids see through idiots easily enough, and who knows? It might be good for your kids to learn to arrange themselves with that sort of small-minded, prejudiced idiocy at an early age.

(let's face it, that's mostly the point of starting threads like these)

I have previously had discussions with my husband's family about their screwed up views of gender roles, and they tried to comply, but two days ago, I was over at their house and a few of them made very racist comments in front of my kids, I told them that I didn't think that was an acceptable attitude and that they should not say things like that around me or my children. I am now afraid to let my kids see them when I am not around because if they are going to say things like that.......I don't want my kids to have to hear it.

Hubby supports me, but of course his family is all "you need to chill out, you are too feminist/PC" and they think I am being a bitch. I think they are sexist, racist homophobes, and I don't think that I am wrong to try to shelter my kids from that stuff until they are old enough to figure out that people who say things like that are idiots.

In the interest of full disclosure the following statements were made (maybe I am over-reacting, which is why I post the actual comments)

"Girls shouldn't play with cars"
"Girls shouldn't have short hair"
"Boys shouldn't cook"

then, I bought my girls some dolls, they wanted "boy barbies" so I got them some, and they are black.........I didn't think anything of it, other than the white 'boy barbies' had surf shorts on and the black ones had jeans, and I thought the outfit was better.......because I am superficial I guess. Anyway, they said (this was two days ago)

"you need to take those back, before the girls start to think that's natural"

:eek:

I inquired as to what they meant by "think that's natural" and they said "you know blacks and white mixing together"

:mad:

I really really really really really don't ever want to even see these people again, much less have them around my children.....

am I right? should I shelter my kids from this? is it just as bad for me to shelter them from views I don't like, as it is for my in-laws not to want them to play with brown barbies?

No, Smunkee, as usual I have to agree with you.

No, Smunkee, as usual I have to agree with you.

Rule #1 of NSG:
You will agree with Smunkee.

Smunk's in-laws are dicks.

What's Rule #2?

I haven't decided yet.

Rule #1 of NSG:
You will agree with Smunkee.

What's Rule #2?

What's Rule #2?

Considering that I broke rule #1 on various occasions, I think rule #2 must be "Doesn't matter if you don't"

such a weird attitude in gender roles. I was taught by my father (who was taught by my grandfather) that men needed to be self-supportive. For that reason, I can cook, sew, do the laundry and a slew of other activities that your in-laws might consider 'girly.'

as for the comment on races mixing...my parents are somewhat more liberal, but i can tell there is still some uneasiness on the subject. in a discussion with my priest one day about the Church taking a long time to change its mind, he made an interesting point. in order for real change to begin, the 'parent' generation will not move from the old form because it was what they were taught. the second generation might make some progress, but since their parents are around, they are influenced by them. the third generation is still affected by their grandparents...the point is, real change doesn't begin to happen for at least 90 years; enough for the 1st generation to die off (i don't mean that in a bad way) and long enough for new views/ideas to be accepted by society.

sorry for such a long post...whew

"Boys shouldn't cook"

"Then why are most chefs in those tvshows male ?"

I inquired as to what they meant by "think that's natural" and they said "you know blacks and white mixing together"

Quite right. You should have included some Asians.
Or.. have them all wear burkhas. All are equal then...

Considering that I broke rule #1 on various occasions, I think rule #2 must be "Doesn't matter if you don't"

i though it was run for your life or was that only for me that one :p

You are right.

But...Well, I don't know your family dynamics, but you cant just tell your children that they're not allowed to see "grandma" until they're old enough to be able to decide these things. I mean, They're your husband's kids too, and I'm glad he's supporting you- but isolating them from an entire segment of the Family?

Your kids really will eventually need experience on how to pleasantly deal with unpleasant people, but I guess 3, 5 are not those ages.

(let's face it, that's mostly the point of starting threads like these)

I have previously had discussions with my husband's family about their screwed up views of gender roles, and they tried to comply, but two days ago, I was over at their house and a few of them made very racist comments in front of my kids, I told them that I didn't think that was an acceptable attitude and that they should not say things like that around me or my children. I am now afraid to let my kids see them when I am not around because if they are going to say things like that.......I don't want my kids to have to hear it.

Hubby supports me, but of course his family is all "you need to chill out, you are too feminist/PC" and they think I am being a bitch. I think they are sexist, racist homophobes, and I don't think that I am wrong to try to shelter my kids from that stuff until they are old enough to figure out that people who say things like that are idiots.

In the interest of full disclosure the following statements were made (maybe I am over-reacting, which is why I post the actual comments)

"Girls shouldn't play with cars"
"Girls shouldn't have short hair"
"Boys shouldn't cook"

then, I bought my girls some dolls, they wanted "boy barbies" so I got them some, and they are black.........I didn't think anything of it, other than the white 'boy barbies' had surf shorts on and the black ones had jeans, and I thought the outfit was better.......because I am superficial I guess. Anyway, they said (this was two days ago)

"you need to take those back, before the girls start to think that's natural"

:eek:

I inquired as to what they meant by "think that's natural" and they said "you know blacks and white mixing together"

:mad:

I really really really really really don't ever want to even see these people again, much less have them around my children.....

am I right? should I shelter my kids from this? is it just as bad for me to shelter them from views I don't like, as it is for my in-laws not to want them to play with brown barbies?

Normally I'd say it's fine because I'm anti-censorship, but in this case, get your kids away from them. Your kids are still far too young to be exposed to that kind of thing: they're still in the stage where they imitate and imprint everything they see and hear into their minds that eventually form into their adult personalities. You need to make sure they're not exposed to racist bullshit or else they'll have at least somewhat of racist feelings that'll be extremely difficult to dislodge once they're older.

So Smunkee, as much as Mr. Smunk might not like it, keep away from your husband's family at all costs.

What's Rule #2?

Rule #2: See Rule #1.

Normally I'd say it's fine because I'm anti-censorship, but in this case, get your kids away from them. Your kids are still far too young to be exposed to that kind of thing: they're still in the stage where they imitate and imprint everything they see and hear into their minds that eventually form into their adult personalities. You need to make sure they're not exposed to racist bullshit or else they'll have at least somewhat of racist feelings that'll be extremely difficult to dislodge once they're older.

So Smunkee, as much as Mr. Smunk might not like it, keep away from your husband's family at all costs.

I think it depends on how much Smunkee's kids really see these people as figures of authority.
I never saw my grandparents as having any authority whatsoever, and more of having completely lost touch with reality, so I never regarded their opinions or way of life as something to be imitated. It was more something to laugh at...

I can tell you that this is only the beginning. There will be school. They'll be exposed to a lot of opinions there that will sometimes apall and astound you, not only from their classmates, but from teachers as well. ...

Smunkee's homeschooling her kids.

Mine are mostly grown now, my youngest is 15. In my own opinion, you are right. Of course.

I can tell you that this is only the beginning. There will be school. They'll be exposed to a lot of opinions there that will sometimes apall and astound you, not only from their classmates, but from teachers as well. And some kids are more susceptible to peer pressure than others, according to their personalities. Two of my own kids were at opposite ends of that spectrum.

There's no way to completely keep kids from being exposed to prejudices and other opinions that are counter to your own, short of keeping them in a box. But you can begin to teach them that things they hear, even from adults they love, aren't always right. Unfortunately, this is a vital thing for any child to learn, because sooner or later, it's going to make a huge difference in their lives.

If it was me in that situation, I would certainly lessen the frequency of any visits, and I'd want to be present whenever those visits occured, so I could try to stem off any problems before they set in by countering those statements afterward.

You are a conscientious mom, and you obviously want to raise your children to be happy, well-adjusted adults. I'm betting that for you, going with your gut on things will be the surest way to achieve that.

I think it depends on how much Smunkee's kids really see these people as figures of authority.
I never saw my grandparents as having any authority whatsoever, and more of having completely lost touch with reality, so I never regarded their opinions or way of life as something to be imitated. It was more something to laugh at...

That's true...I felt the same way about by redneck southern relatives--and still do, I might add--so I never listened to them either, but you never know what kids will pick up. It's more a case of being safe than sorry here.

That said, you don't want to shelter your kids too much. As Nazz said, do that and your kids will be easy prey for the world in general. I'm just saying you need to keep them away from those people right now while they're still easily imprintable so they don't foster the attitudes. Once they're older and can understand why that kind of hate is wrong then they can hear it no problem.

What's Rule #2?

Don't talk about fight club?

Considering that I broke rule #1 on various occasions, I think rule #2 must be "Doesn't matter if you don't"

No, the last rule is:"These rules are just suggestions"

No, the last rule is:"These rules are just suggestions"

"We like to think of them as more of a guideline."

That's true, but I really never got the impression that Smunkee was sheltering her kids too much in any way.

I don't know... I did. But I guess those are very subjective impressions.

That said, you don't want to shelter your kids too much. As Nazz said, do that and your kids will be easy prey for the world in general. That's true, but I really never got the impression that Smunkee was sheltering her kids too much in any way.

:p Well, maybe in regards to sex, but I think that's more an American thing than a Smunkee thing.

*lol I wasn't really referring to that explicitly. I think she's very very carefully picking and choosing the elements of the environment she wants them to grow up in. Starting with homeschooling them, and now considering to keep them seperate from a part of the family she disagrees with.
Ok, they're her kids, she can do what she like to raise them, but I personally would get my kids into contact with the real world a lot more than that. Just my opinion, though.

I don't know... I did. But I guess those are very subjective impressions.:p Well, maybe in regards to sex, but I think that's more an American thing than a Smunkee thing.

I think you are over-reacting.

Why? When my grandmother told my brother that needlework is a girl's thing, I taught him how to knit. He still loves it. :)

I dont think you should keep them away from your relatives, just regularly laugh at those sorts of opinions and at ther relatives at home.
My great uncle mervyn swore in front of us, and had all sorts of opinions of that nature, but cause my parents regularly laughed at him at home, and said how he always gave "advice" mainly cause he hadnt actually done anything with his own life, then we always found him halarious and simply humoured him.
He still tells my sister she is doing a stupid degree and will never get a job.

Looks like it's time to give them a reason to hate you.

"In-laws? Who? Hm? Never heard of them!"

they are in the real world enough....I think. I don't let them around my side of the family because I don't want to be around my side of the family on account of they are abusive. I don't think I shelter them much, I just can't really stand to be around racists, so I probably don't want my kids to be forced to.....I think for the time being I will go with poll option 2 and call my in-laws on their BS.

I think that's the best way to teach your girls how to deal with BS :)

my opinion? Never let them speak in front of your children.

If they do, make sure to inform your children that this is not how civilized people think or behave.

*lol I wasn't really referring to that explicitly. I think she's very very carefully picking and choosing the elements of the environment she wants them to grow up in. Starting with homeschooling them, and now considering to keep them seperate from a part of the family she disagrees with.
Ok, they're her kids, she can do what she like to raise them, but I personally would get my kids into contact with the real world a lot more than that. Just my opinion, though.

they are in the real world enough....I think. I don't let them around my side of the family because I don't want to be around my side of the family on account of they are abusive. I don't think I shelter them much, I just can't really stand to be around racists, so I probably don't want my kids to be forced to.....I think for the time being I will go with poll option 2 and call my in-laws on their BS.

I dont think you should keep them away from your relatives, just regularly laugh at those sorts of opinions and at ther relatives at home.
My great uncle mervyn swore in front of us, and had all sorts of opinions of that nature, but cause my parents regularly laughed at him at home, and said how he always gave "advice" mainly cause he hadnt actually done anything with his own life, then we always found him halarious and simply humoured him.
He still tells my sister she is doing a stupid degree and will never get a job.

Unless she's doing something like paleoanthropology, I don't see how any degree is really that stupid.

I think I voted wrong >.> Are you saying the other people made those idiotic comments like boys shouldn't cook and girls shouldn't play with cars? If they were, I'm sorry and please disregard my vote of "No, you were wrong" and count it as a vote of "yeah, they don't need those types of ideas."

Who the bloody hell cares if a girl wants to play with cars or a boy wants to cook. People are who they are and should be given the chance to try as much as they can to see what fits their interest.

Besides, speaking on a level of the way the world works, I can't speak of most countries but here in American a guy will love a girl who's interested in cars and girls like a guy who can cook.

And the only real difference between black people and white people is skin color. But I think it's been scientifically proven that racists have lower IQ on average than non-racists, proving racists are just idiots who enjoy their ignorance.

Unless she's doing something like paleoanthropology, I don't see how any degree is really that stupid.

She went and did something really exceptionally silly... Ancient History...
"Thats not a science, what kind of job are you going to get with that?"

She went and did something really exceptionally silly... Ancient History...
"Thats not a science, what kind of job are you going to get with that?"

That's not really silly at all. My best friend's doing an American History major and going to Law School afterwards. It depends on what she plans to do with it, really.

That's not really silly at all. My best friend's doing an American History major and going to Law School afterwards. It depends on what she plans to do with it, really.

Sorry, forgot to insert appropriate sarcasm to the concept of sillyness. She has just got a job working with the royal collection in buckingham palace for the summer, so its not silly at all.

Sorry, forgot to insert appropriate sarcasm to the concept of sillyness. She has just got a job working with the royal collection in buckingham palace for the summer, so its not silly at all.

That's pretty cool.

Granted, I'm in a science field, heavy science field, but still, cool.

everyone tell me I am right....
(let's face it, that's mostly the point of starting threads like these) Smunkee-sweetheart, You can count on me to tell you "You are wrong".. If I feel you are wrong.

every Generalite can count on me.
On the other hand.. If some 50 Generalites are already telling you "You are Right" (or "You are wrong").. and I do think alike them.. I wont (usually) add my input.

That is who I am.. and that is what I do.

BTW.. happy Valentines.:) (sorry I am late)

I think you are over-reacting.

I see you did not quote the "black and white mixing is not normal" part.
Accident, on purpose or do you agree ?

Smunkee-sweetheart, You can count on me to tell you "You are wrong".. If I feel you are wrong.

every Generalite can count on me.
On the other hand.. If some 50 Generalites are already telling you "You are Right" (or "You are wrong").. and I do think alike them.. I wont (usually) add my input.

That is who I am.. and that is what I do.

BTW.. happy Valentines.:) (sorry I am late)

What the heck is a Generalite? Is it....wait....NSG...General....Generalite...OMG Neesika wants to screw some of us. (Not me, methinks)

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=12393662#post12393662

My Grandparents (on both sides, but about different peoples) were racist and I suppose sexist (although that wasn't an issue then). My wife's family, (being from southern Missouri) is rather racists.

My mother made a point of saying it was wrong when we weren't with my Grandparents. (It would be wrong to insult those you are to honor.) We made an effort to teach our children when they weren't around my wife's parents. The result has been that my children's best friends are of minority. They realize that their Grandparents, (and I realized my Grandparents) aren't/weren't perfect, but they had many outstanding features like unconditional love for their grandchildren. They had/have a great deal of wisdom that comes with age and experiences. They had/have roots that tell of a struggle to improve life and society. They didn't get to the epitome of social tolerance, but they did improve over the history that they inherited. Those stories are extremely valuable. For instance, my Grandfather came from a country with little freedoms. If anyone would even hint about not voting, he would cuss you out in three languages. From the time they were babies, I would take my children with me to the polls and tell them this story every time. He may have been a racist, but he taught G-Grandchildren to vote that he never lived to meet. He also taught them to keep fighting when you want to quit. Keep fighting when everything around you is designed to destroy you, physically and mentally. I think that lesson was valuable even if he was a racist.

If you are looking to keep your children around perfect people you are deluded. They couldn't even be around you. Someday you will have a son/daughter-in-law that will see your flaws and say "I don't want my children around this flaw that Smunkee has." You will say "What flaw? I raised a good set of children and can help raise grandchildren."

The answer is to tell your children all of the massive amount of good things about your In-laws (they were good enough to raise your spouse after all) and simply tell them that you disagree with some of their beliefs and explain to them why you disagree. You are always talking of how you can reason with your children. Why would this be different?

the problem is that these are your husbands parents and your childrens grandparents.

they should not be kept away from such close relatives. your husband should not be put in a position of in essence disowning his parents.

your kids are able to understand that some people just have wrong opinions. even people that we love. its a good lesson to learn.

so dont cut your inlaws out of your children's lives. children need grandparents. if they are otherwise good grandparents, keep an ear open for stupid comments and make sure that your girls know that you dont agree with what is being said. its even good for them to see you stand up against racism, it behavior that they will take from you and use in their own lives later on.

the problem is that these are your husbands parents and your childrens grandparents.

they should not be kept away from such close relatives. your husband should not be put in a position of in essence disowning his parents.

your kids are able to understand that some people just have wrong opinions. even people that we love. its a good lesson to learn.

so dont cut your inlaws out of your children's lives. children need grandparents. if they are otherwise good grandparents, keep an ear open for stupid comments and make sure that your girls know that you dont agree with what is being said. its even good for them to see you stand up against racism, it behavior that they will take from you and use in their own lives later on.


I find that quite a strange attutude really. You can't choose your family, if they are no good, or you don't get on with them why exactly should you have anything to do with them?

Just beacuse they are family? It makes very little sense to me.

Would you let total strangers teach your kids that kind of BS? Would you choose to send them to a school that taught such ideas?

Then why should you allow relatives to do so?

I happen to think that family members have an even higher level of responsibility toward each other, but at the very least they should be held to a standard that is on par with the conduct you expect from a stranger. If you wouldn't put up with a stranger feeding racism and sexism to your kids, then don't let your relations do it either.

Protecting your children from a particular ideology will only leave them with less ability to resist its appeal later in life. It's like innoculation, but from a political standpoint perspective.

I wouldn't want my (future) kids exposed to that, nor would I, as the kid I used to be, want to be "forced" to be exposed to that (by "forced" I mean that, so long as I can't honestly say "I'd rather not go" and thereby expect to avoid them, it's kinda forced).

That said, I would explain to them exactly how stupid and ignorant your hubby's family are being and why.

Oh, and they obviously haven't considered: What do viking raiders do!? :O Seeing as how they were all male, no women being allowed to follow them, who would cook their food during their journeys? And could they really trust their newly acquired slaves to cook food for them?

No, men should always be able to cook, as should women. It's a very general point of survival.

Hubby supports me, but of course his family is all "you need to chill out, you are too feminist/PC" and they think I am being a bitch. I think they are sexist, racist homophobes, and I don't think that I am wrong to try to shelter my kids from that stuff until they are old enough to figure out that people who say things like that are idiots.


By all means, if you're husband supports you, do what you feel you have to. To my way of thinking, it's them that are in the wrong, not you. You have every right to keep your kids from hearing stuff like that until they're older.

I see you did not quote the "black and white mixing is not normal" part.
Accident, on purpose or do you agree ?

hmmm I must have missed that part.

Why shouldn't boys cook? That one really confuses me. There are only like a billion famous male chefs from throughout history.

Apart from that you are right.

Your kids would probably prefer the show of you calling their bull every time.

Think of the kids.

I know I preferred it when I was a kid. It was one thing that was sure to drag me away from TV, a good old fight around the kitchen table about political and social issues. (My grandfather actually once took that table and threw it out the kitchen door in a fit, when my brother and I announced that we were going to vote for the Green Party in the first elections we had a vote :D Happy days...)

Your kids would probably prefer the show of you calling their bull every time.

Think of the kids.

Why shouldn't boys cook? That one really confuses me. There are only like a billion famous male chefs from throughout history.

Apart from that you are right.

Don't you mean "including that"?

(let's face it, that's mostly the point of starting threads like these)

I have previously had discussions with my husband's family about their screwed up views of gender roles, and they tried to comply, but two days ago, I was over at their house and a few of them made very racist comments in front of my kids, I told them that I didn't think that was an acceptable attitude and that they should not say things like that around me or my children. I am now afraid to let my kids see them when I am not around because if they are going to say things like that.......I don't want my kids to have to hear it.

Hubby supports me, but of course his family is all "you need to chill out, you are too feminist/PC" and they think I am being a bitch. I think they are sexist, racist homophobes, and I don't think that I am wrong to try to shelter my kids from that stuff until they are old enough to figure out that people who say things like that are idiots.

In the interest of full disclosure the following statements were made (maybe I am over-reacting, which is why I post the actual comments)

"Girls shouldn't play with cars"
"Girls shouldn't have short hair"
"Boys shouldn't cook"

then, I bought my girls some dolls, they wanted "boy barbies" so I got them some, and they are black.........I didn't think anything of it, other than the white 'boy barbies' had surf shorts on and the black ones had jeans, and I thought the outfit was better.......because I am superficial I guess. Anyway, they said (this was two days ago)

"you need to take those back, before the girls start to think that's natural"

:eek:

I inquired as to what they meant by "think that's natural" and they said "you know blacks and white mixing together"

:mad:

I really really really really really don't ever want to even see these people again, much less have them around my children.....

am I right? should I shelter my kids from this? is it just as bad for me to shelter them from views I don't like, as it is for my in-laws not to want them to play with brown barbies?

Inbred hicks... (Yeah, I have the right to say that)

As a child-care worker and part time teacher, you've no idea how much raccism and bigotry some kids are filled with from so-called role models.

I voted the "confront them" option. Ideally your kids should have their grand parents around when they grow up, but make sure they (the rugrats) learn to meet racists and bigots with integrity.

My two bits, anyway.

(let's face it, that's mostly the point of starting threads like these)

I have previously had discussions with my husband's family about their screwed up views of gender roles, and they tried to comply, but two days ago, I was over at their house and a few of them made very racist comments in front of my kids, I told them that I didn't think that was an acceptable attitude and that they should not say things like that around me or my children. I am now afraid to let my kids see them when I am not around because if they are going to say things like that.......I don't want my kids to have to hear it.

Hubby supports me, but of course his family is all "you need to chill out, you are too feminist/PC" and they think I am being a bitch. I think they are sexist, racist homophobes, and I don't think that I am wrong to try to shelter my kids from that stuff until they are old enough to figure out that people who say things like that are idiots.
Of course you should protect your children. It's your job as a parent. It's a fact of life that children are impressionable. It's also a fact that children pretty much take the words of adults they trust as gospel. It's vitally important you protect your children against hateful and intolerant thoughts.

In the interest of full disclosure the following statements were made (maybe I am over-reacting, which is why I post the actual comments)

"Girls shouldn't play with cars"
"Girls shouldn't have short hair"
"Boys shouldn't cook"
My grade school gym teacher said girls don't play sports they play with dolls, can't learn how to throw a football properly ect, ect. I can tell you, those comments (not intentionally cruel, just his version of reality) have stuck with me.

then, I bought my girls some dolls, they wanted "boy barbies" so I got them some, and they are black.........I didn't think anything of it, other than the white 'boy barbies' had surf shorts on and the black ones had jeans, and I thought the outfit was better.......because I am superficial I guess. Anyway, they said (this was two days ago)

"you need to take those back, before the girls start to think that's natural"

:eek:

I inquired as to what they meant by "think that's natural" and they said "you know blacks and white mixing together"

:mad:

I really really really really really don't ever want to even see these people again, much less have them around my children.....

am I right? should I shelter my kids from this? is it just as bad for me to shelter them from views I don't like, as it is for my in-laws not to want them to play with brown barbies?
That's horrible. You should not let these people poison your children.

If your children are old enough for it, I think maybe you should take them aside and discuss some of what was said by your husband's parents, why you think it's wrong, and some general stuff about human equality.

But it's also important that you let your children know that your in-laws grew up in a different time, when things like this were widely believed, and that, while the world has changed and we now realize how silly/offensive/wrong these things were, that it can be very difficult to change if you've grown up all your life with a certain set of beliefs.

Basically, you want your children to know about societal norms today, and about acceptance, but not make your in-laws out as bad people, even if they believe some bad things. Whether or not you should let your children visit them anymore depends on the relationship between your children and them, and whether or not you think that your in-laws can keep a lid on the racism, sexism and homophobia while the children are around (from what they said about the black Barbie being unnatural, I think doing that may just cause more problems).

On the other hand, if you're children aren't old enough for this kind of discussion, it may be best that they're kept away from you in-laws until they're a little more mature. It's important for a growing child to be able to explore who they are without feeling like what they're doing is wrong (so long as it's not hurting someone else), as that could lead to repression and a very unhappy adolescence.

am I right? should I shelter my kids from this? is it just as bad for me to shelter them from views I don't like, as it is for my in-laws not to want them to play with brown barbies?

I'm only 16, and I haven't had kids myself yet, so it's not really my place to give advice on raising them. However, I don't think you should shelter them from it, as long as you teach them that it's wrong. The sooner they learn that there are people like this in the world, the better.

You should throw things at them *nod*

If sheltering them from "views you don't like" means 'sheltering' them from overtly sexist, racist homophobes, fuck the homophobes. All we need is more kids growing up to join the vicious circle of racist horse shit.

Your in-laws phail. I wonder what they would say if they knew me and knew that I once dated a black guy.

Yeah, keep your kids away from them....

Smunkee, I know we disagree on many things but I've been there. There are no perfect in-laws---not even your husbands.

DO NOT force your husband to choose between you and his parents as many have suggested. He may choose you but it will cause a hole in your relationship. You may live with that hole but it will always be there. And that hole will spread to the relationship between your family and your parents. Your parents may not have this problem, but I guarantee they have some idiosyncrasy that burns your husband that he keeps under cover out of respect for them and out of love for you. If you start a war against your husband's family, the dirt will sooner or later come out. Both you and your husband will have resentment after all of the S____ hits the wall. It will be hard to forget the attacks on your parents.

You have plenty of time to teach your children. Their grandparents only have a limited time. I think you are strong enough to guide your children around this problem. The Bible says to honor your father and mother. It doesn't say they are always correct. But starting a war is not honoring them. Tell your children the good things about their Grandparents. Downplay the bad. Don't ignore it, downplay it.

If you decide you need to discuss this with his parents. (Something I highly discourage) DO NOT say a word. Allow him to handle this, with just him and them. You should not be present. You do not need in-law problems.

This is not like they are beating the children or otherwise abusing them. I'm sure they love them deeply. And the children love them. Do you really want to add a hate into that equation? Their hate for you, your hate for them. That would force the children as well as your husband to give up a source of love.

Think deeply before you act. Your decision will effect your children 80 years from now.

I think you are right

*hell freezes over*

I will talk to him about it tonight and work on keeping my mouth shut when it's better left unsaid........although I will explain to my kids that I don't judge people on the amount of melanin in their skin......and I would hope people don't judge me that way either because I don't have much......LOL

Whitey.

I'm sorry, I couldn't resist.

Smunkee, I know we disagree on many things but I've been there. There are no perfect in-laws---not even your husbands.

DO NOT force your husband to choose between you and his parents as many have suggested. He may choose you but it will cause a hole in your relationship. You may live with that hole but it will always be there. And that hole will spread to the relationship between your family and your parents. Your parents may not have this problem, but I guarantee they have some idiosyncrasy that burns your husband that he keeps under cover out of respect for them and out of love for you. If you start a war against your husband's family, the dirt will sooner or later come out. Both you and your husband will have resentment after all of the S____ hits the wall. It will be hard to forget the attacks on your parents.

You have plenty of time to teach your children. Their grandparents only have a limited time. I think you are strong enough to guide your children around this problem. The Bible says to honor your father and mother. It doesn't say they are always correct. But starting a war is not honoring them. Tell your children the good things about their Grandparents. Downplay the bad. Don't ignore it, downplay it.

If you decide you need to discuss this with his parents. (Something I highly discourage) DO NOT say a word. Allow him to handle this, with just him and them. You should not be present. You do not need in-law problems.

This is not like they are beating the children or otherwise abusing them. I'm sure they love them deeply. And the children love them. Do you really want to add a hate into that equation? Their hate for you, your hate for them. That would force the children as well as your husband to give up a source of love.

Think deeply before you act. Your decision will effect your children 80 years from now.

I think you are right

*hell freezes over*

I will talk to him about it tonight and work on keeping my mouth shut when it's better left unsaid........although I will explain to my kids that I don't judge people on the amount of melanin in their skin......and I would hope people don't judge me that way either because I don't have much......LOL

"you need to take those back, before the girls start to think that's natural"

:eek:

I inquired as to what they meant by "think that's natural" and they said "you know blacks and white mixing together"

:mad:


I'm crying and laughing and vomitting it is a mess!

I am rather pale. ;) when I was in Mexico they called me fantasma although it started to bother me so they switched to blanca, which is even worse. :p

You should switch your name to Blanche :D

I'm a brownie, so it's all good.

Whitey.

I'm sorry, I couldn't resist.

I am rather pale. ;) when I was in Mexico they called me fantasma although it started to bother me so they switched to blanca, which is even worse. :p

I actually cracked up at the barbie comment. While I do understand your concern, I think you shouldnt cut your children from your husband's family. It'll take a long time for them until they can figure out things for themselves and by that time there will be lots of things which may effect them, ranging from tv's to friends etc...Try not to shelter your kids too much. And instead of preaching PCness to your kids ( dont be sexist, dont be racist, etc... ), teach them to be good people. There are much worse things to do than say "Girls shouldn't play with cars".

"Don't be racist," and "Don't be sexist," are not PCness.

PCness is "Don't say anything racist," and "Don't say anything sexist."

Teaching a child that being a racist is wrong is a perfectly reasonable thing to do for anyone who isn't, actually, a racist.

(let's face it, that's mostly the point of starting threads like these)

I have previously had discussions with my husband's family about their screwed up views of gender roles, and they tried to comply, but two days ago, I was over at their house and a few of them made very racist comments in front of my kids, I told them that I didn't think that was an acceptable attitude and that they should not say things like that around me or my children. I am now afraid to let my kids see them when I am not around because if they are going to say things like that.......I don't want my kids to have to hear it.

Hubby supports me, but of course his family is all "you need to chill out, you are too feminist/PC" and they think I am being a bitch. I think they are sexist, racist homophobes, and I don't think that I am wrong to try to shelter my kids from that stuff until they are old enough to figure out that people who say things like that are idiots.

In the interest of full disclosure the following statements were made (maybe I am over-reacting, which is why I post the actual comments)

"Girls shouldn't play with cars"
"Girls shouldn't have short hair"
"Boys shouldn't cook"

then, I bought my girls some dolls, they wanted "boy barbies" so I got them some, and they are black.........I didn't think anything of it, other than the white 'boy barbies' had surf shorts on and the black ones had jeans, and I thought the outfit was better.......because I am superficial I guess. Anyway, they said (this was two days ago)

"you need to take those back, before the girls start to think that's natural"

:eek:

I inquired as to what they meant by "think that's natural" and they said "you know blacks and white mixing together"

:mad:

I really really really really really don't ever want to even see these people again, much less have them around my children.....

am I right? should I shelter my kids from this? is it just as bad for me to shelter them from views I don't like, as it is for my in-laws not to want them to play with brown barbies?

I actually cracked up at the barbie comment. While I do understand your concern, I think you shouldnt cut your children from your husband's family. It'll take a long time for them until they can figure out things for themselves and by that time there will be lots of things which may effect them, ranging from tv's to friends etc...Try not to shelter your kids too much. And instead of preaching PCness to your kids ( dont be sexist, dont be racist, etc... ), teach them to be good people. There are much worse things to do than say "Girls shouldn't play with cars".

I have a friend who is half black and half Chinese, her skin is so beautiful, I would die for some pigment, I am so white that I have to wear sunblock year round. :(

Ouch. A friend of mine is like that. She used to be a ...crap what're they called. The people who sit around at pools and make sure no one drowns.

Well anyway, she did that for a summer and came back, and she'd literally gone from being pale, pale white to being partially charred, because the sunblock wore off and she burned in the sun.

You should switch your name to Blanche :D

I'm a brownie, so it's all good.

I have a friend who is half black and half Chinese, her skin is so beautiful, I would die for some pigment, I am so white that I have to wear sunblock year round. :(

Can only speak from the kids' perspective really.
My dad's parents are very rightwing and a little racist too, not like your in-laws by the sound of it though. My dad is politically ambivalent, a bit of a pandering centrist. My mum's mum and her dad when he was alive were/are fairly apolitical though very moral. My mum's a lefty.
I grew up mostly with my mother's values, and I believe that within a traditional two-parents-of-different-sexes setup that the mother tends to be the one who shapes the kids' opinions and beliefs the most. My grandparents, despite regular contact, had no real influence over me.
I speak for my sister as well; she also shares my mother's beliefs. Grandparents count for nothing in comparison to the mother.

Edit: and the dad's parents tend to have less influence than the mum's, I believe that there are biological reasons for this.

am I right? should I shelter my kids from this? is it just as bad for me to shelter them from views I don't like, as it is for my in-laws not to want them to play with brown barbies?
it's tough.

on one hand, yes, you want to shelter them from such views until a point when they can make such decisions on their own.

but on the other hand, they need to know that such views exist and that it can be as close as their Uncles, Aunts, and Cousins.

You don't want to isolate them from the world, but neither do you want to expose them to undesireable viewpoints before they're ready.

the only thing I can suggest is keep the dialouge between you, your husband, and your kids open. they need to be able to feel that they can talk to you or your hubby no matter what the situation.

Do they have cousins from his side of the family? I wonder what their reactions are to hear that viewpoint mimic'ed though their cousin's mouths.

I have a friend who is half black and half Chinese, her skin is so beautiful, I would die for some pigment, I am so white that I have to wear sunblock year round. :(

I'm a geeky nerd... I bet I'm whiter than you. :p

Smunkee, if your 4 year old daughter was smart enough to build a sonic based dog pacifier out of old computer parts, I think all your kids are smart enough not to be suckered by idiot in-laws.

Fixed.

I'm a geeky nerd... I bet I'm whiter than you. :p

I doubt it.

am I right? should I shelter my kids from this? is it just as bad for me to shelter them from views I don't like, as it is for my in-laws not to want them to play with brown barbies?

Smunkee, if your daughter at 4 years was smart enough to build a sonic based dog pacifier out of old computer parts, I think all your kids are smart enough to not be suckered by idiot in-laws.

They are right about one thing:
"Girls should not have short hair."

If a girl has her hair cut above her shoulder, with a little leeway, it makes her extremely ugly and unappealing. Having hair that short should be a felony and said girl should have to wear a headscarf until the hair returns to optimum length. :)

I would keep my kids as far away as possible from those bastards.

Oh, and I'd bawl those scumbags out and insult them enough to give them nightmares for years. But that's just me.

They are right about one thing:
"Girls should not have short hair."

If a girl has her hair cut above her shoulder, with a little leeway, it makes her extremely ugly and unappealing. Having hair that short should be a felony and said girl should have to wear a headscarf until the hair returns to optimum length. :)

I find that one of the best clues as to whether a woman is married or not is the length of her hair. Long if single, short if married. Doesn't work every time, but is a good rule of thumb.

They are right about one thing:
"Girls should not have short hair."

If a girl has her hair cut above her shoulder, with a little leeway, it makes her extremely ugly and unappealing. Having hair that short should be a felony and said girl should have to wear a headscarf until the hair returns to optimum length. :)

:( my hair is cut above my shoulder........I am neither ugly nor unappealing. I like my haircut.

:( my hair is cut above my shoulder........I am neither ugly nor unappealing. I like my haircut.

Aside from the paleness. J/k :)

I find that one of the best clues as to whether a woman is married or not is the length of her hair. Long if single, short if married. Doesn't work every time, but is a good rule of thumb.

That's odd, as most of the married women I've known (either personally or by proxy) and seen have had long hair...

Eh. Everyone in my family like that joined the army. And they're all dead. A few people in my family were temporarily disowned, but it's all blown over.

Eh. Every in my family like that joined the army. And they're all dead. A few people in my family were temporarily disowned, but it's all blown over.

Heh, my dad disowned my sister for saying "What's your problem!?" during a phone conversation... In which my dad was accusing her of something she'd never do.

He's ten kinds of psychotic, and ten kinds after that.

Heh, my dad disowned my sister for saying "What's your problem!?" during a phone conversation... In which my dad was accusing her of something she'd never do.

He's ten kinds of psychotic, and ten kinds after that.

What was the something?