NationStates Jolt Archive

why is lashes anymore barbaric than locking someone up for 23 hours a day in a 6x6 windowless room with bad food for at times years? At least once the lashes are over, your punishment is done.

Only a civilization has the resources necessary to build and maintain a building whose only purpose is to detain people who serve no productive purpose. Barbarians, even if they had a choice, would have to use corporal punishment because they don't have the resources to feed forced indigents. They pretty much just have to beat him and put him back to work.

Of course, Saudi Arabia has something like a 70% unemployment rate, so they are civilized. Sadistic self-righteous amoral bastards, but civilized ones.

The barbaric thing here is that essentially, this woman is being punished for being raped.

You can be loving and merciful while still carrying out punishment which is just.

I, speaking in the name of Allah, state that the punishment she received was not just.

I, speaking in the name of Allah, state that the punishment she received was not just.

Hear Hear.

Why, when someone disobeys the words of Allah swt and is punished for it, is that not justice?

It might be, if you showed me any point at all in the Quran that forbits women to meet men.

I, speaking in the name of Allah, state that the punishment she received was not just.

Why, when someone disobeys the words of Allah swt and is punished for it, is that not justice?

Why, when someone disobeys the words of Allah swt and is punished for it, is that not justice?

You don't know that she did. According to you the benefit of the doubt must be given. So much so that for a man to prosecuted for rape four pious men must have seen the penetration. Justice would have women with the same presumption of innocence. Justice would not create a situation that makes women fearful to report rape.

Justice is not seen anywhere in the treatment of this human being.

The barbaric thing here is that essentially, this woman is being punished for being raped.

Not really. The bad thing here is that the woman is being punished solely for being alone with a man she's not related to.

The barbaric thing here is that essentially, this woman is being punished for being raped.

How is she being punished for being raped?

If you shoplift, and then are assaulted by a stranger...should you avoid being punished for shoplifting because you have been made a victim?

She is not getting the lashes because she was raped. She is getting the lashes because she was alone with a male not related to her. Crazy, yes. Unreasonable, yes. Punishment for rape? No.

Why, when someone disobeys the words of Allah swt and is punished for it, is that not justice?
If he were so interested that the laws are obeyed, wouldn't he enforce them himself?

How is she being punished for being raped?

If you shoplift, and then are assaulted by a stranger...should you avoid being punished for shoplifting because you have been made a victim?

She is not getting the lashes because she was raped. She is getting the lashes because she was alone with a male not related to her. Crazy, yes. Unreasonable, yes. Punishment for rape? No.

Then, in fact, she was punished for being blackmailed, because this was why she was in the car with the male not related to her.

Some guys break in to your house where you're alone. They rape you.

Ah, you were alone with some guys who were not your relatives. 90 lashes for you.

Nice twist. That appears in fact to NOT be the case here. The woman was not charged for being alone with her rapists. She was charged for being alone with the man who was not one of her rapists. Hence, she is not being punished for being raped.

Try again.

How is she being punished for being raped?

If you shoplift, and then are assaulted by a stranger...should you avoid being punished for shoplifting because you have been made a victim?

She is not getting the lashes because she was raped. She is getting the lashes because she was alone with a male not related to her. Crazy, yes. Unreasonable, yes. Punishment for rape? No.

Some guys break in to your house where you're alone. They rape you.

Ah, you were alone with some guys who were not your relatives. 90 lashes for you.

Some guys break in to your house where you're alone. They rape you.

Ah, you were alone with some guys who were not your relatives. 90 lashes for you.

That's a mischaracterization. You clearly aren't paying attention. The rapists were not who she was alone with. She was already alone with a male not related to her when the rapists captured them. Doesn't make it right, but it didn't in any way related to your analogy.

That's happened in other cases. And you know that's what they would do.

Link.

Some guys break in to your house where you're alone. They rape you.

Ah, you were alone with some guys who were not your relatives. 90 lashes for you.

thats not at all what happened in this case, get your facts straight.

thats not at all what happened in this case, get your facts straight.

That's happened in other cases. And you know that's what they would do.

thats funny, because we aren't talking about other cases, try to stick to this one.

This case hardly stands alone. In this one, we KNOW this woman was ONLY alone with the male because she was being blackmailed. We KNOW that. We have no knowledge of whether she committed any crimes ever, but we do know that in this instance she was coerced illegally. We KNOW that.

We also KNOW that some of her rapists received no punishment at all.

In THIS case, there was no semblance of justice. Doesn't that just make you proud?

That's happened in other cases. And you know that's what they would do.

thats funny, because we aren't talking about other cases, try to stick to this one.

thats funny, because we aren't talking about other cases, try to stick to this one.
Gotta love rules that punish a woman for this.

Heard an NPR show yesterday, where someone said that in countries with Sharia, a woman can't be alone without a male relative.

If her husband dies, and she doesn't have any living male relatives, she can't leave the house, and starves to death - or, if she's willing to risk going outside, is reduced to beggary, and being beaten by the religious police.

Nice.

Then, in fact, she was punished for being blackmailed, because this was why she was in the car with the male not related to her.

She was punished for being alone with the male not related to her.

The fact of the blackmail should be a defence. And appears to form her appeal. This case has been extremely controversial in Saudi Arabia, from media reports, so clearly the public at large has some serious issues with both her sentence, and the sentences of her rapists.

Bottom line is...she is not being punished for being raped. We can discuss how out of whack it can be to punish someone for being with a person of the opposite sex not related to you (as the man in this situation has been sentenced in exactly the same way), but pretending that this is 'oh those evil Muslims punish rape victims' by pointing to this case is false. (because you'll likely be unclear on this, I'm pointing that finger at Eve Online et al, not you)

And again, those people crowing about how Saudi Arabia is sooooooo far behind us in terms of justice, need to look at recent cases of female victimisation in their own countries, and realise that we aren't really all that far ahead. Which is frankly, pretty scary.

That's happened in other cases. And you know that's what they would do.

Provide links, where rape victims in Saudi Arabia have been punished for their rape. We can then go through the evolution of the law in this regard in Saudi Arabia, and then do a comparison of the evolution of the law in the US and Canada.

But thank you for finally admitting that the facts of this case do not in any way support your assertion that a woman is being punished for being raped.

We know that one of her rapists is still being investigated.

We also know her brother beat the crap out of her and is not up for charges. Another problem.

Such a nice place to live.:rolleyes:

I know! I'm moving to Saudi Arabia!

We also KNOW that some of her rapists received no punishment at all.


We know that one of her rapists is still being investigated.

We also know her brother beat the crap out of her and is not up for charges. Another problem.

Sharia law in action, Neesika.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2006/07/09/MNGFPJS8O21.DTL&type=politics

include a clause stating that to prove rape, a woman must have at least four male witnesses. If the woman fails to provide proof, she herself faces the charge of adultery.

So, if she reports it, and any of the men aren't found guilty, she's convicted of adultery.

Gee, that's sweet. So if there aren't enough witnesses (four in both Pakistan and Saudi, because that's Sharia), or if the witnesses aren't enough to convict every rapist who raped you, you're literally and legally fucked.

She was punished for being alone with the male not related to her.

The fact of the blackmail should be a defence. And appears to form her appeal. This case has been extremely controversial in Saudi Arabia, from media reports, so clearly the public at large has some serious issues with both her sentence, and the sentences of her rapists.

Bottom line is...she is not being punished for being raped. We can discuss how out of whack it can be to punish someone for being with a person of the opposite sex not related to you (as the man in this situation has been sentenced in exactly the same way), but pretending that this is 'oh those evil Muslims punish rape victims' by pointing to this case is false. (because you'll likely be unclear on this, I'm pointing that finger at Eve Online et al, not you)

And again, those people crowing about how Saudi Arabia is sooooooo far behind us in terms of justice, need to look at recent cases of female victimisation in their own countries, and realise that we aren't really all that far ahead. Which is frankly, pretty scary.

Yes, I don't consider this an endictment of the Saudi people, in general.

It's clear that all evidence we have, the available articles, indicate that she was being blackmailed. The blackmailer forced her to be in a car alone with him. She no more violated the law than a woman being raped is an adultress.

Such a nice place to live.:rolleyes:

I know! I'm moving to Saudi Arabia!

Sorry, did I post a brochure somewhere advocating relocation to Saudi Arabia based on this case?

There is only ONE poster in this thread supporting this. Everyone else is either:

a) completely mischaracterising the case in order to support assertions of cultural superiority, or
b) making valid comments on the harshness of the actual punishment

Sharia law in action, Neesika.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2006/07/09/MNGFPJS8O21.DTL&type=politics



So, if she reports it, and any of the men aren't found guilty, she's convicted of adultery.

Gee, that's sweet. So if there aren't enough witnesses (four in both Pakistan and Saudi, because that's Sharia), or if the witnesses aren't enough to convict every rapist who raped you, you're literally and legally fucked.

Hi Eve, let me redirect you to my request. We are discussing Saudi Arabia. Yes? Good, that's clear. I asked you to provide links to cases of women being punished for being raped, in Saudi Arabia? Got that? Okay. You provide links to Pakistan and say, 'It must be so in Saudi Arabia because they both have Sharia law'.

Guess what! This is going to BLOW your mind. Sharia law is not uniform! Just like English common law is not uniform...hence different laws in the US than in Canada than in England than in Australia...despite the similarities that may also exist.

So get back to the topic, and find me some links for rape victims being punished for their rape in Saudi Arabia. Thanks.

Oh, and also thank you for that link, which highlights how social change within a society is important, and how people in Pakistan are pushing to make serious changes to these unjust laws. Just like women's rights groups in Canada and the US fought for decades to have courts accept that 'no means no'. Good on those in Pakistan fighting for women's rights.

Sharia law in action, Neesika.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2006/07/09/MNGFPJS8O21.DTL&type=politics



So, if she reports it, and any of the men aren't found guilty, she's convicted of adultery.

Gee, that's sweet. So if there aren't enough witnesses (four in both Pakistan and Saudi, because that's Sharia), or if the witnesses aren't enough to convict every rapist who raped you, you're literally and legally fucked.

No longer the case in Pakistan, as of december 2006.

No longer the case in Pakistan, as of december 2006.

Yes, under international pressure. When is Saudi, and nations like it going to catch up?

Probably when they are as poor as Pakistan, and dependent upon other nations like Pakistan, which is unlikely any time soon.

Sorry, did I post a brochure somewhere advocating relocation to Saudi Arabia based on this case?

There is only ONE poster in this thread supporting this. Everyone else is either:

a) completely mischaracterising the case in order to support assertions of cultural superiority, or
b) making valid comments on the harshness of the actual punishment
I wasn't refuting your post. I was merely adding on to your post.

Yes, under international pressure. When is Saudi, and nations like it going to catch up? You've yet to prove this is in fact the case in Saudi Arabia.

And you do the people within Pakistan a serious injustice when you make it seem as though change only came from without.

Boy, you're assertions keep getting knocked down huh?

1) she was punished for being raped!
No, no, she wasn't .

Oh.

2) Well in Pakistan they...
No, no they don't.

Oh.

What's next?

I wasn't refuting your post. I was merely adding on to your post.

Mmm.

http://india_resource.tripod.com/grpakistan.html

Rape victims dropping charges because they're afraid of going to prison for zina.

There can be only one answer to that. (http://www.islamcomicbook.com/lyrics1.htm)

OK, maybe two. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia#Women.27s_rights)

Still no links about Saudi Law?

He tends to abandon his arguments like so much trash on the side of a road, and then move on to something new and shiny until it too becomes tarnished. Don't expect him to retrieve what he's thrown away.

Yes, under international pressure. When is Saudi, and nations like it going to catch up?

Probably when they are as poor as Pakistan, and dependent upon other nations like Pakistan, which is unlikely any time soon.

Still no links about Saudi Law?

Yes, under international pressure. When is Saudi, and nations like it going to catch up?
:D You're silly.

And you do the Pakistanis a disservice. Sure, there were some international pressure (Mind you, it was noticably lacking on governmental levels, especially from one of their closest and most powerful western allies) but it would not have come about if not for a lot of work and pressure by the Pakistanis themselves.

Please don't marginalise the women who have suffered to make this bill a reality.
You've yet to prove this is in fact the case in Saudi Arabia.

And you do the people within Pakistan a serious injustice when you make it seem as though change only came from without.

Boy, you're assertions keep getting knocked down huh?

1) she was punished for being raped!
No, no, she wasn't .

Oh.

2) Well in Pakistan they...
No, no they don't.

Oh.

What's next?
:p

He wasn't going to tell the authorities because they both would have been punished, he was going to tell her family. What she should have done was not meet him and call him on his lie, then only he would have been punished.

I am going to make an assumption here. I am going to assume that the Saudi authorities would be far more willing to believe the man when he said she was lying than they would be willing to believe her when she is telling the truth. If she had chosen that path, she would probably be lashed for trying to disparage his honour. I am basing this assumption on stories like the one of Rania al-Baz or the fact that women can not vote in Saudi elections.

You don't know that she did not have consenual relations with him, the facts aren't in yet but it appears that she in fact did. Thus, she did not follow Allah and thus justice would be to punish her accordingly.

Since she was blackmailed into consorting with him, I think I can safely assume that any contact or relation was not concensual. If you can show any indication as to why I should presume her guilty before any facts are known, please do so.

she wasn't force to do anything. She made the choice herself.

Do you know what blackmail means? Do you realise that she had no other options that were safer or better. Her brother apparently beat her over all of this. Do you think this supports your theory that she should have told her family and all would have gone well?

You can be loving and merciful while still carrying out punishment which is just.

But this verdict has neither love, mercy, nor justice.

Absolutely, Gift o' God. The thing we need to face up to here though, is that these people defending SA (expecially Greater Trostia; OMG) are dickwads. They are probably sexually-confused men who believe all this Shariah crap.

And I am not saying America or Russia or others are not guilty of foul play. The Americans have Chapter 322, and the Russians shoot innocent Chechen two-year olds. Btw, I left Israel out of that for one reason; they are SURROUNDED by enemies. Of course they have to do things one might say are not exactly honourable, since half the Muslim wants the Jews and the Israeli nation "...wiped off the face of the Earth." as Armadinejhaad put it. May I stress I am not Jewish, nor capitalist, no. I am just fair. (And a Trotskyist ;) .)

Basically, Saudi Arabia is a backwards country. End of.

I am going to make an assumption here. I am going to assume that the Saudi authorities would be far more willing to believe the man when he said she was lying than they would be willing to believe her when she is telling the truth. If she had chosen that path, she would probably be lashed for trying to disparage his honour. I am basing this assumption on stories like the one of Rania al-Baz or the fact that women can not vote in Saudi elections.


Man you tread gently...;)

There is no assumption required. The Sharia itself considers that the word of woman is only half of that of a man's. That is why two female witnesses are required to counter a male witness.

Shes lucky shes not being stoned to death. Some crimes in SA will merit that.

How about you guys respect the sovereignty of Saudi Arabia.

How about you guys respect the sovereignty of Saudi Arabia.

I'm hoping that's a joke. Since when is criticizing a government not respecting their sovereignty?

How about you guys respect the sovereignty of Saudi Arabia.

I didn't see anyone here advocating an invasion or regime change.

How about you guys respect the sovereignty of Saudi Arabia.

We are. If criticizing the government of Saudi Arabia is disrespecting the soveriegnty of said country, then that means no one here has the right to criticize the Government of the United States.

Why does it seem extreme? They plan to flog a rape victim. Perhaps if this were your daughter or sister or mother you would think differently?

Brutal, violent savages like this are not protected by "self determination" - there are higher ethical imperatives than that.

It is correct to shoot nazi camp executioners in the face, it is correct to shoot rape-victim-floggers in the face.

Right and wrong are not meaningless.

It sounded like u thought all saudi's were evil, but I don't understand things well :(

We are. If criticizing the government of Saudi Arabia is disrespecting the soveriegnty of said country, then that means no one here has the right to criticize the Government of the United States.

Hey, I'm all for criticizing Saudi Arabia. Then again guess what country is not putting pressure on it? That's right, the United States- one of its biggest customers, partner in the "War on Terror" and Your Dear Leader is best friends with them, Corny.

Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are both being condoned by the United States, so the next time you all want to whine about another 3b1l |\/|0zl3|\/| country oppressing its citizens, look at what's letting them get away with that shit.

Hey, I'm all for criticizing Saudi Arabia. Then again guess what country is not putting pressure on it? That's right, the United States- one of its biggest customers, partner in the "War on Terror" and Your Dear Leader is best friends with them, Corny.

Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are both being condoned by the United States, so the next time you all want to whine about another 3b1l |\/|0zl3|\/| country oppressing its citizens, look at what's letting them get away with that shit.

shhhhhh...do as we say...not as we do.

Since when is a theocratic culture that punishes rape victims, i.e. Saudi Arabia, equal to one of the freest cultures on the face of the earth, which actually grants fair trials and doesn't require repentant male witnesses for rape convictions, and doesn't provide for public stoning, or the removal of the hands of pickpockets, and doesn't illegalize movie theaters and bars, and doesn't trust its people to defend themselves?

Let's look at the birdcage dichotomy, since America and Saudi Arabia chose different options. The birdcage dichotomy is this: a bird in a cage is safe, but it is not free. America chose free. Saudi Arabia chose the other. Now let's look at what happened to them:

Safe(Saudi Arabia):
Theocratic
Autocratic
Fatally dependent upon oil; it lacks any other industry of any kind
Alcohol and movie theaters illegal (why anyone would illegalize either i cannot fathom)
Executes first-time, nonviolent drug offenders
Public whippings of rape victims

The first two by themselves take the cake; the others are supplementary.

Free(USA):
Clear Separation of church and state
elected government
Diverse industry, the world's largest economic power
freest country on earth; citizens are trusted with arms
heavy sentences, but the death penalty is administered gingerly
public corporal punishment outlawed

Now tell me which you'd rather live in. Now tell me the two are equal. I want to see someone do that with a straight face, just once.

Saudi Arabistan?

This is why Geography needs to be on the fucking SATs. Because of stupid shit like this.

LOL. Shit, I cant use the excuse of dyslexia here, can I? Oh well, at least your comment wasnt perfect neither. No SATs here in Canada...

Since when is a theocratic culture that punishes rape victims, i.e. Saudi Arabia, equal to one of the freest cultures on the face of the earth, which actually grants fair trials and doesn't require repentant male witnesses for rape convictions, and doesn't provide for public stoning, or the removal of the hands of pickpockets, and doesn't illegalize movie theaters and bars, and doesn't trust its people to defend themselves?

Let's look at the birdcage dichotomy, since America and Saudi Arabia chose different options. The birdcage dichotomy is this: a bird in a cage is safe, but it is not free. America chose free. Saudi Arabia chose the other. Now let's look at what happened to them:

Safe(Saudi Arabia):
Theocratic
Autocratic
Fatally dependent upon oil; it lacks any other industry of any kind
Alcohol and movie theaters illegal (why anyone would illegalize either i cannot fathom)
Executes first-time, nonviolent drug offenders
Public whippings of rape victims

The first two by themselves take the cake; the others are supplementary.

Free(USA):
Clear Separation of church and state
elected government
Diverse industry, the world's largest economic power
freest country on earth; citizens are trusted with arms
heavy sentences, but the death penalty is administered gingerly
public corporal punishment outlawed

Now tell me which you'd rather live in. Now tell me the two are equal. I want to see someone do that with a straight face, just once.

Of course they arent equal, but it's kinda mean to remind them of their primitive culture, since it's so obvious.

LOL. Shit, I cant use the excuse of dyslexia here, can I? Oh well, at least your comment wasnt perfect neither. No SATs here in Canada...

You mean it wasn't perfect either. Careful of your double negatives :p . And yes, I didn't realize you were from Canada. But from what I can see you made a legitimate mistake, as opposed to trying to make some sort of weird linguistic jab at SA, which is what I'd thought you were doing. So it's all good.

Of course they arent equal, but it's kinda mean to remind them of their primitive culture, since it's so obvious.

The problem isn't primitivity, it's who's in charge. The dynasty that is in charge of Saudi Arabia helped form Saudia Arabia in 1744. It's been the unquested ruler pretty much since. It's a totalitarian state that uses the thin veil of theocracy to keep the clerics happy, who in turn keep the popular mollified, if not actually happy and content.

Stop calling them primitive. Stop calling them savages. These are PEOPLE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. HUMAN FUCKING BEINGS.

...who act like savages. Call a spade a spade. If your country lashes a woman for commiting the nefarious "crime" of being raped, then you live in a savage and backward society. That's just how it is.

No, you live in a society with different laws than our own that we consider to be regressive and lacking in women's rights. They look at us and consider us lacking in proper decency. So are we savages too?

Less value judgement. More rationality.

Stop calling them primitive. Stop calling them savages. These are PEOPLE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. HUMAN FUCKING BEINGS.

...who act like savages. Call a spade a spade. If your country lashes a woman for commiting the nefarious "crime" of being raped, then you live in a savage and backward society. That's just how it is.

...who act like savages. Call a spade a spade. If your country lashes a woman for commiting the nefarious "crime" of being raped, then you live in a savage and backward society. That's just how it is.
Since people clearly don't read the thread or the articles, I'll repeat this again.

She wasn't sentenced to lashing for being raped. She was sentenced to lashing for being alone with a man not her relative.

The man was sentenced to the same.

Since people clearly don't read the thread or the articles, I'll repeat this again.

She wasn't sentenced to lashing for being raped. She was sentenced to lashing for being alone with a man not her relative.

The man was sentenced to the same.

Then I rest my case. This is indeed a strange land, this Saudi Arabia.

The problem isn't primitivity, it's who's in charge. The dynasty that is in charge of Saudi Arabia helped form Saudia Arabia in 1744. It's been the unquested ruler pretty much since. It's a totalitarian state that uses the thin veil of theocracy to keep the clerics happy, who in turn keep the popular mollified, if not actually happy and content.

Stop calling them primitive. Stop calling them savages. These are PEOPLE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. HUMAN FUCKING BEINGS.

If you had read the post above mine, you would have seen that "they" in my post referred to "cultures", not to people.
And while the dynasty may have an impact, I believe it's rather unrealistic and simplistic to blame them for EVERYTHING.

Then I rest my case. This is indeed a strange land, this Saudi Arabia.

Rest your case? That the human beings in Saudi Arabia are savages? You might need a bit more support. What percentage of SA was involved? Seems like a small percentage. Doesn't seem like it supports the point you made.

What percentage of SA supports these events? Again, doesn't seem like it supports the point you made.

Seems to me, you'd make your case prior to resting it. Well, unless you don't actually care to actually having anyone accept your claims.

Batshit insane sentences for minor crimes, and pathetically lenient sentences for major crimes are a problem in ALL nations. Including yours.

Yeah, New Jersey sucks. A lot. I spent 2 years in Philadelphia and discovered just how much ballsuck New Jersey sucked on a daily basis.

If you had read the post above mine, you would have seen that "they" in my post referred to "cultures", not to people.
And while the dynasty may have an impact, I believe it's rather unrealistic and simplistic to blame them for EVERYTHING.

Much like it's rather unrealistic and simplistic to blame the culture that is completely and entirely subject to the to will of the government is to blame. Yet, you were happy to do so.

Then I rest my case. This is indeed a strange land, this Saudi Arabia.

Batshit insane sentences for minor crimes, and pathetically lenient sentences for major crimes are a problem in ALL nations. Including yours.

No, you live in a society with different laws than our own that we consider to be regressive and lacking in women's rights. They look at us and consider us lacking in proper decency. So are we savages too?

Less value judgement. More rationality.

Ahh..moral relativism. So hypocritical.

There are absolute truths and fundamental rights that every human being is deserving of by virtue of simply being human. The right to religion, free speech, right to be with who ever you choose and not get lashed for it.

If a society doesn't abide by these simple codes, and treats its women the way Islamic societies such as Saudi Arabia do, then it is savage. No other word for it.

Whatever our faults, their opinion of us has no validity because of the massive human rights violations that occur in their own countries, that they are accepting of.

We're lacking decency? Please, naked women on TV is nothing compared to hacking off thieves' hands.

Batshit insane sentences for minor crimes, and pathetically lenient sentences for major crimes are a problem in ALL nations. Including yours.

Please, you're not seriously comparing the death penalty for murdering other people to treating women like garbage and government killing of homosexuals?

Much like it's rather unrealistic and simplistic to blame the culture that is completely and entirely subject to the to will of the government is to blame. Yet, you were happy to do so.

If it's all about the government, then that's really weird. There are authoritarian governments in many places on Earth, Myanmar being one of the strictest. Yet only in muslim countries, this type of punishing raped women (stoning in Iran) seems to happen, along with other severe women's right violations.

Ahh..moral relativism. So hypocritical.

There are absolute truths and fundamental rights that every human being is deserving of by virtue of simply being human. The right to religion, free speech, right to be with who ever you choose and not get lashed for it.

If a society doesn't abide by these simple codes, and treats its women the way Islamic societies such as Saudi Arabia do, then it is savage. No other word for it.

Whatever our faults, their opinion of us has no validity because of the massive human rights violations that occur in their own countries, that they are accepting of.

We're lacking decency? Please, naked women on TV is nothing compared to hacking off thieves' hands.
I think that calling human beings savages is a very uncivilized thing to do

I wont make any comments about this.



Why Is There So Much Hate Inside Us?
Abdullah Al-Mutairi • Al-Watan


In the shop next to my house, there is a home delivery service which is run by an Indian. He is a good man, hardworking and devoted to his job. I talk to him whenever he delivers something to my house and he talks to me about the time he spent working in Abu Dhabi and of his dream to live in London.

Last week I asked him to deliver a newspaper to my house. When he delivered it to me, he asked me whether I wrote in it. I told him that I did and he asked me to write about why young Saudis hate foreign workers, particularly Indians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis. He asked, “Why do they throw rocks at us when they see us in the street?” He said that in India they were taught to love others because that is the teaching of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). I was moved by his words and promised him that I would write on the subject.

I took his question to my students and started a discussion in class. The students agreed that they had harassed foreigners, particularly South Asians, in the street. One said that seeing a worker in the street was a perfect chance for them to beat him up and then run away. Some admitted searching for foreign workers to beat up, throw eggs at and generally abuse. I asked my students why they behaved in this way, what was the reason. Some said it was just fun, nothing more or less. Some said it was because those people were weak and unable to fight back. Some said that their favorite pastime was to catch cats, kill them and skin them. I was shocked and disturbed by all this violence and wondered what was causing it.

The classroom discussion ended but my questions would not go away. Is this violence only committed by children or can we see it at other levels in other forms? How do older people deal with foreign workers? Do the workers feel that we respect them? Sadly, the rude and sarcastic way we often refer to them sprang to my mind. Can such relationships be called humane? Are they based on equality? Are they in keeping with the tenets of Islam?

Do we adult Saudis who sponsor and employ foreigners fulfill the conditions of their contracts — which both we and they have signed? How many housemaids never get a day off?

I remember a worker in the school where I work who was on the job every day and who had not been paid for six months. I remember another unpaid worker who asked humbly and politely for his dues and received nothing but curses and insults. It seems to me that our children’s violent behavior has its origins and roots in the behavior and attitudes of adults. My Indian friend’s question should have thus been directed toward all ages and not just at the young.

Are these things related to education? Can we blame this shameful behavior on a lack of education? The answer came all too quickly to my head. I remembered one of my colleagues, a teacher who belongs to a certain tribe. He believes that a student lacking a tribal name is a man with no roots and hence of no importance. Then I remembered a preacher who visited the school after 9/11 and warned the students against dealing with non-Muslims. I also remember a sheikh in a mosque who would not allow a foreigner to pray next to him — simply because the man was not Saudi.

It is not difficult to come up with examples of our relations with people in our country who belong to different religions and cultures. And I will not discuss our own relations with other Saudis. Many of us will not allow our daughters to marry someone just because he is from a certain place or because, for some reason, we look down on him. Behind all these examples are beliefs and thoughts toward “others” which glorify us and our egos and degrade them and theirs. Such a situation is fertile ground for the idea of hate and infertile ground for the idea of love.

Those brought up to love people will not throw rocks at them and curse them. Those brought up to love people will not degrade those who are different from them? Where is love in our lives? Has it given way to hate? What answer can I give my Indian friend? Is he going to understand that it will take a long time to change this culture of hate? I do not think that it will be easy since so many of us do not want to and so many believe they are unique and the best in the world. I remember when I was in England last summer, arriving at the front door of the house where I was staying. I saw a little girl standing outside the house next to mine. I wondered if she would curse me or throw stones at me or whether she would just look away in disgust. Instead, she carried on watering the flowers in the small garden; then she looked up and waved at me, with a big smile on her face. Could that have happened here?


http://www.arabnews.com/?page=13&section=0&article=79830&d=27&m=3&y=2006

Rest your case? That the human beings in Saudi Arabia are savages? You might need a bit more support. What percentage of SA was involved? Seems like a small percentage. Doesn't seem like it supports the point you made.

What percentage of SA supports these events? Again, doesn't seem like it supports the point you made.

Seems to me, you'd make your case prior to resting it. Well, unless you don't actually care to actually having anyone accept your claims.

I'll wager that the majority of the people support this. Some because they want to oppress others, some because this is all they know.

You may say that it's only the government that does this, not the people, but ask yourself this: what is the government made of? The people!

This is their culture. Accept it. I will until they don't.

Ahh..moral relativism. So hypocritical.

There are absolute truths and fundamental rights that every human being is deserving of by virtue of simply being human. The right to religion, free speech, right to be with who ever you choose and not get lashed for it.

If a society doesn't abide by these simple codes, and treats its women the way Islamic societies such as Saudi Arabia do, then it is savage. No other word for it.

Whatever our faults, their opinion of us has no validity because of the massive human rights violations that occur in their own countries, that they are accepting of.

We're lacking decency? Please, naked women on TV is nothing compared to hacking off thieves' hands.

Seriously, do we AGAIN have to list the amazing abuses that go on in our "civilized" country? Are you really this blind? Sin has repeatedly pointed out that a boy had his life ruined and was incarcerated for consenting oral sex with his girlfriend. Not 90 lashes. Permanent destruction of his life.

Incarceration without trial. Long term. Years.

Illegal search and seizure.

Military agression.

All by our government and all of these things are things we claim to think are wrong. We're not even civilized by our own standards or the standards of our own laws.

Moral relativism is pretending like this one action makes them primatives while our collective acts say nothing about us. It's hypocritical and silly.

She wasn't sentenced to lashing for being raped. She was sentenced to lashing for being alone with a man not her relative.
And she was only in that situation because the man blackmailed her into going. So we still have a woman forced into an action by a man who victimized here, and then the governmen punished her.
Stop calling them primitive. Stop calling them savages. These are PEOPLE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. HUMAN FUCKING BEINGS.
It is because they are human beings that they're expected to achieve some minimum standards, if they were just animals it would be only expected. An animal doesn't owe a human being anything, but one human should respect the rights of another to at least not to be lashed for being victimized by another.

I'll wager that the majority of the people support this. Some because they want to oppress others, some because this is all they know.

You may say that it's only the government that does this, not the people, but ask yourself this: what is the government made of? The people!

This is their culture. Accept it. I will until they don't.

Wager? You mean you don't know and you're just making crap up.

And to add to your ignorance, you claim the government is made of the people. Do you know what a royal family is? SA is not a democratic country. Most people have no say in the government.

Your argument is not founded in reality.

I think that calling human beings savages is a very uncivilized thing to do

If they behave savage it's the only thing to do.

Unless you're a moral relativist. In which case, anything flies.

Keep in mind that I'm calling the judge and the perpetrators of this crime savage, not the victim. Unfortunately, her backwards and yes, savage, society condones this kind of treatment.

If it's all about the government, then that's really weird. There are authoritarian governments in many places on Earth, Myanmar being one of the strictest. Yet only in muslim countries, this type of punishing raped women (stoning in Iran) seems to happen, along with other severe women's right violations.

Hmmmm... I think I've seen a few American acts that were comparable. More than a few. But, hey, why let reality get in the way of your tirade?

How about beating homosexuals to death? How abou cheering the death of soldiers because they might be homosexual? How about dragging people through the streets because of their race? How about locking people in prison for years with no trial? How about an increased likelihood of the death penalty, innocent or not, based on race? How about an increased likelihood of incarceration based on race? How about the fact that the highest office in the land has only allowed white males in?

Do we need to keep going?

If they behave savage it's the only thing to do.

Unless you're a moral relativist. In which case, anything flies.

Keep in mind that I'm calling the judge and the perpetrators of this crime savage, not the victim. Unfortunately, her backwards and yes, savage, society condones this kind of treatment.

When someone asks you if they are fat do you call them fat? Or do you say "Lets start excercising together". One is rude and the other one is more constructive.

Wager? You mean you don't know and you're just making crap up.

And to add to your ignorance, you claim the government is made of the people. Do you know what a royal family is? SA is not a democratic country. Most people have no say in the government.

Your argument is not founded in reality.

Even autocratic government in history didn't condone this. The Soviets didn't do it. The Chinese don't do it.

For that matter, how do you know that most Saudis don't support this? You're accusing me of "making crap up", but it seems like you're guilty of the same crime, no?

And she was only in that situation because the man blackmailed her into going. So we still have a woman forced into an action by a man who victimized here, and then the governmen punished her. Yes. Exactly true. And that should be the focus of this discussion.

Instead, it has been phrased in an inaccurate way, deliberately I believe.

Her case is being appealed.

It has created a great deal of controversy.

Hopefully that controversy will create a dialogue that leads to an increased respect for human rights.

But 'woman gets punished for being coerced into the presence of a man not her relative' is much less 'sexy' than, 'rape victim punished for being raped'.

Yeah, New Jersey sucks. A lot. I spent 2 years in Philadelphia and discovered just how much ballsuck New Jersey sucked on a daily basis.

THat's why we want to blow up New Jersey and let PA have beach front property. Or that we use New Jersey as a Tsunami break :D

Even autocratic government in history didn't condone this. The Soviets didn't do it. The Chinese don't do it.

For that matter, how do you know that most Saudis don't support this? You're accusing me of "making crap up", but it seems like you're guilty of the same crime, no?

What exactly did I make up? That the government is not made up of the people? Nope. That's a fact. That this decision is very controversial even in the SA? Nope. That's a fact to. What did I make up? Quote me.

Meanwhile, you continue to just keep ignoring that all of your arguments are unsupported and as each one is destroyed, you simply move on to make other absurd claims.

Hmmmm... I think I've seen a few American acts that were comparable. More than a few. But, hey, why let reality get in the way of your tirade?

How about beating homosexuals to death? How abou cheering the death of soldiers because they might be homosexual? How about dragging people through the streets because of their race? How about locking people in prison for years with no trial? How about an increased likelihood of the death penalty, innocent or not, based on race? How about an increased likelihood of incarceration based on race? How about the fact that the highest office in the land has only allowed white males in?

Do we need to keep going?

Uhh...we're not in the 50s anymore. Most of the things you described happened decades ago.

The homosexual violence and the death of soldiers stuff is perpetrated by fringe groups that everyone condemns. Not the government.

Let's examine Saudi Arabia, shall we?

Cutting off people's hands for stealing
Not allowing females to be alone with a male not in her family
Not allowing Non-Muslims into the country
Government killing of homosexuals
Forget about free speech

Do we need to keep going?

Hmmmm... I think I've seen a few American acts that were comparable. More than a few. But, hey, why let reality get in the way of your tirade?

How about beating homosexuals to death? How abou cheering the death of soldiers because they might be homosexual? How about dragging people through the streets because of their race? How about locking people in prison for years with no trial? How about an increased likelihood of the death penalty, innocent or not, based on race? How about an increased likelihood of incarceration based on race? How about the fact that the highest office in the land has only allowed white males in?

Do we need to keep going?

Are these legal?? And racism is a big no no in today's world. It's certainly being worked on, sometimes too much (ie: affermative action)

And the equivalent of Saudi girl to your example would be lashing a racism victim who was dragged in the streets. Now, would that happen in USA?

And while homphobia, or other horrible acts exist, they are rare, in the general population. BUT MOST WOMEN IN SAUDI ARABIA ARE REPRESSED. There is no such equivalent of this in USA, certainly not in Saudi rate.

Uhh...we're not in the 50s anymore. Most of the things you described happened decades ago.Actually no, most of those things still happen.

At best. At BEST, the US and Canada are scant decades ahead of Saudi Arabia in terms of justice.

That's not nearly far enough to be crowing about it.

What exactly did I make up? That the government is not made up of the people? Nope. That's a fact. That this decision is very controversial even in the SA? Nope. That's a fact to. What did I make up? Quote me.

Meanwhile, you continue to just keep ignoring that all of your arguments are unsupported and as each one is destroyed, you simply move on to make other absurd claims.

So who makes up the government? Robot drones? So far, this woman's case hasn't been reversed.

You still claim that most Saudis are against this. I have yet to see you produce any evidence of this. Give me some polls.

Your ego tells you that "destroy" my arguments, but the fact it, every single one still stands. That is, that Saudi Arabia is a savage civilization that treats its women like garbage, and it is the height of moral hypocrisy to even compare the USA to Saudi Arabia.

Let me ask you a very simple question: Would you move to Saudi Arabia? Even if their economy was better than ours, and they were willing to let you in despite you not being a Muslim, assuming you aren't one?

Actually no, most of those things still happen.

At best. At BEST, the US and Canada are scant decades ahead of Saudi Arabia in terms of justice.

That's not nearly far enough to be crowing about it.

Is that so?

Could you please provide a link to a story where government agents are lynching people of color, prescribing lashes to women, and murdering homosexuals?

Canada and the US are centuries ahead of Saudi Arabia. We're talking about the adherents of a puritized version of a 7th century religion.

Is that so?

Could you please provide a link to a story where government agents are lynching people of color, prescribing lashes to women, and murdering homosexuals?

Canada and the US are centuries ahead of Saudi Arabia. We're talking about the adherents of a puritized version of a 7th century religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detainment_camp

Oh, the place where they keep some of the most vicious killers on this planet? Who get three square meals a day, prayer time, free healthcare, and are treated better than most US soldiers in Iraq?

Give me a break.

Great. I'll stick you in a cage, feed you three times a day, and even give you a bible and some privacy for an hour out of that day. In exchange I'll hold you against your will for four years. Hell I'll even treat you if you're sick, to sweeten the pot.

Sound good to you?

Actually no, most of those things still happen.

At best. At BEST, the US and Canada are scant decades ahead of Saudi Arabia in terms of justice.

That's not nearly far enough to be crowing about it.

Isnt homosexuality punishable by death in SA while homosexual marriages are legal here? In fact, two guys were flirting in the elevator I took two hours ago. Would that be possible in Saudi Arabia? "Scant decades" sound too much of an understatement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detainment_camp

Oh, the place where they keep some of the most vicious killers on this planet? Who get three square meals a day, prayer time, free healthcare, and are treated better than most US soldiers in Iraq?

Give me a break.

So what? USA is ahead of SA and Canada is ahead of USA. :D

Sounds about right. If they ever reinstitute the draft, I'm moving up there with the y'all, eh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detainment_camp

So what? USA is ahead of SA and Canada is ahead of USA. :D

Even if they don't have womans rights. Do woman's rights groups go "OMG those disgusting savages!" or do they look for the root of a problem and think of ways to improve lives. There is really no excuse for calling people names. Its unnecessary.

No, you live in a society with different laws than our own that we consider to be regressive and lacking in women's rights. They look at us and consider us lacking in proper decency. So are we savages too?

Less value judgement. More rationality.
So, Phelps looks upon the majority of the USA and considers it lacking in proper decency - should he too be exempt of criticism now? I suppose he's no longer just a religious nutjob then, but a person will viable concerns? The problem is the Saudi justification for all these practices is nonsensical. Oppressing fellow human beings because supposedly some god said it is okay to do so?

Perhaps savages is an awfully inappropriate term - that does not mean they oughtn't be criticised for their blatant stupidity.

So, Phelps looks upon the majority of the USA and considers it lacking in proper decency - should he too be exempt of criticism now? I suppose he's no longer just a religious nutjob then, but a person will viable concerns? The problem is the Saudi justification for all these practices is nonsensical. Oppressing fellow human beings because supposedly some god said it is okay to do so?

Perhaps savages is an awfully inappropriate term - that does not mean they oughtn't be criticised for their blatant stupidity.

I never said he should be exempt from criticism.

I never said Saudi Arabia should be exempt from criticism.

I said that calling another group of people savages was an unnecessary moral judgement that added nothing to do this discussion. I believe I am correct, but if you disagree feel free to debate the actual point.

If I was trying to kill the people of your country, you would be fully justified in doing so.

Well we wont know if you were or not, as you haven't had a trial yet, and it looks like you wont for a long time.

Enjoy your stay.

Great. I'll stick you in a cage, feed you three times a day, and even give you a bible and some privacy for an hour out of that day. In exchange I'll hold you against your will for four years. Hell I'll even treat you if you're sick, to sweeten the pot.

Sound good to you?

If I was trying to kill the people of your country, you would be fully justified in doing so.

I said that calling another group of people savages was an unnecessary moral judgement that added nothing to do this discussion. I believe I am correct, but if you disagree feel free to debate the actual point.
Calling Saudis in general savages would be an extreme, yes - referring to the individuals enforcing these laws as such, on the other hand, would be most apposite. They're extremists in the same fashion as Phelps, only the latter (fortunately) enjoys no political power. So tyrannical savages in this case serves well in describing them.

Calling Saudis in general savages would be an extreme, yes - referring to the individuals enforcing these laws as such, on the other hand, would be most apposite. They're extremists in the same fashion as Phelps, only the latter (fortunately) enjoys no political power. So tyrannical savages in this case does do a good job in describing them.

I can agree with you there. But a lot of the people here are blatantly dismissing Saudi Arabians in general as "Those Savage Mohameddins."

Note to everyone else: Yes, I know. This isn't a direct quote from anyone. So before you pounce and go "Those weren't my exact words, you're wrong hur hur," I'm well aware that I'm merely paraphrasing your viewpoints on this.

THat's why we want to blow up New Jersey and let PA have beach front property. Or that we use New Jersey as a Tsunami break :D

Yeah, New Jersey sucks. A lot. I spent 2 years in Philadelphia and discovered just how much ballsuck New Jersey sucked on a daily basis.

Jealous. :rolleyes:

Also, that's one of the most poorly worded insults I've ever heard, Deus Malum. We suck ballsuck? What, exactly, is a ballsuck? :p

Jealous. :rolleyes:

Also, that's one of the most poorly worded insults I've ever heard, Deus Malum. We suck ballsuck? What, exactly, is a ballsuck? :p

Graaaa ballzack. You know what I meant.

I still hate Jersey. :(

Saudi culture is inferior. Sure, they've got some level of civilization, but they act like savages when they punish women who've been raped in order to appease their invisible man in the sky.


well its simply a horrid misnomer of muslim culture, corrupted of course by religious fanaticism and wealth. much like WWII germany

Graaaa ballzack. You know what I meant.

I still hate Jersey. :(

Jersey hates you, too. :D

And, really, we rock. Just compare the Devils and Flyers.

Then weep. :p

Snape kills Dumbledoor

So who makes up the government? Robot drones? So far, this woman's case hasn't been reversed.

A small minority of the people who do not get to decide the laws, but simply enforce them.


You still claim that most Saudis are against this. I have yet to see you produce any evidence of this. Give me some polls.

Ah, yes, shifting the burden of evidence. Yours is the positive claim, that they're all savages. You claimed you'd bet that the majority supports it. Support it or admit you can't.


Your ego tells you that "destroy" my arguments, but the fact it, every single one still stands. That is, that Saudi Arabia is a savage civilization that treats its women like garbage, and it is the height of moral hypocrisy to even compare the USA to Saudi Arabia.

Again, not only have you presented no evidence, but you were provably wrong about your government of the people and about her being flogged for the rape. But, hey, keep pretending like you're supported a single argument. Like we can't see the difference.



Let me ask you a very simple question: Would you move to Saudi Arabia? Even if their economy was better than ours, and they were willing to let you in despite you not being a Muslim, assuming you aren't one?

Would I live with Saudis? Sure. Would I want to be subject to their government? Nope. Many of them wouldn't either. YOu aren't criticizing their government. You're criticizing them. Incidentally, our government is probably the biggest supporter of the Saudi government ever. Much more so than an Saudi group.

Your ego tells you that "destroy" my arguments, but the fact it, every single one still stands. That is, that Saudi Arabia is a savage civilization that treats its women like garbage, and it is the height of moral hypocrisy to even compare the USA to Saudi Arabia.

You scream out that it's hypocrisy to compare the US to Saudi Arabia, but don't so much as bat an eyelash at the fact that the United States continues to buy oil from Saudi Arabia and Your Dear Leader considers the House of Saud to be personal friends as well as allies in "The War on Terror" despite the staggering number of 9-11 hijackers being Saudi nationals?

Maybe you need to re-examine what hypocrisy really is.

I honestly believe that the Saudi Arabian government is the nearly perect government for a country that owns Mecca. That being said, this is one stupid legal decision. Their laws need a little work.

Before people get all hot and bothered about this, I should point out that every judicial system in every country occasionally drops the ball. I would not be too quick to condemn Saudi Arabia too much.

In fact, if the King mitigates or pardons her this would be an example of the legal system working to achieve justice. This is preceisely why the executive needs a pardon or mitigation power.

I honestly believe that the Saudi Arabian government is the nearly perect government for a country that owns Mecca. That being said, this is one stupid legal decision. Their laws need a little work.

Before people get all hot and bothered about this, I should point out that every judicial system in every country occasionally drops the ball. I would not be too quick to condemn Saudi Arabia too much.

In fact, if the King mitigates or pardons her this would be an example of the legal system working to achieve justice. This is preceisely why the executive needs a pardon or mitigation power.

I honestly believe that the Saudi Arabian government is the nearly perect government for a country that owns Mecca. That being said, this is one stupid legal decision. Their laws need a little work.

Before people get all hot and bothered about this, I should point out that every judicial system in every country occasionally drops the ball. I would not be too quick to condemn Saudi Arabia too much.

In fact, if the King mitigates or pardons her this would be an example of the legal system working to achieve justice. This is preceisely why the executive needs a pardon or mitigation power.

I honestly believe that the Saudi Arabian government is the nearly perect government for a country that owns Mecca. That being said, this is one stupid legal decision. Their laws need a little work.

Before people get all hot and bothered about this, I should point out that every judicial system in every country occasionally drops the ball. I would not be too quick to condemn Saudi Arabia too much.

In fact, if the King mitigates or pardons her this would be an example of the legal system working to achieve justice. This is preceisely why the executive needs a pardon or mitigation power.

I honestly believe that the Saudi Arabian government is the nearly perect government for a country that owns Mecca. That being said, this is one stupid legal decision. Their laws need a little work.

Before people get all hot and bothered about this, I should point out that every judicial system in every country occasionally drops the ball. I would not be too quick to condemn Saudi Arabia too much.

In fact, if the King mitigates or pardons her this would be an example of the legal system working to achieve justice. This is preceisely why the executive needs a pardon or mitigation power.

Penta-post!! :eek:

Penta-post!! :eek:

I resisted the urge to post something, because I found it too god damned funny.

I resisted the urge to post something, because I found it too god damned funny.

I couldn't make out if he was serious or sarcastic.

Snape kills Dumbledoor

I agree wholeheartedly! Not to mention he dresses a damn sight cooler too!:p

I honestly believe that the Saudi Arabian government is the nearly perect government for a country that owns Mecca. That being said, this is one stupid legal decision. Their laws need a little work.

Before people get all hot and bothered about this, I should point out that every judicial system in every country occasionally drops the ball. I would not be too quick to condemn Saudi Arabia too much.

In fact, if the King mitigates or pardons her this would be an example of the legal system working to achieve justice. This is preceisely why the executive needs a pardon or mitigation power.

You know, posting the exact same thing 4 times in a row does not make it any more or any less correct. It only makes it annoying

Seriously, do we AGAIN have to list the amazing abuses that go on in our "civilized" country? Are you really this blind? Sin has repeatedly pointed out that a boy had his life ruined and was incarcerated for consenting oral sex with his girlfriend. Not 90 lashes. Permanent destruction of his life. Please tell me what instance you are referring to? It happens all the time will not suffice. When, where and who?

Incarceration without trial. Long term. Years. Again what individual was incarcerated for years sans trial? Please be specific, anonomys sources do not count.

Illegal search and seizure.Results in both being illegal under the judcial system therefore inadmissable and those responsible are typically punished.

Military agression.Military aggression is a point of view. The USSR did not consider invading Afghanistan such simply because it was there, yet most think it was. Militaries are by the very nature of what they are aggressive. Not long ago Saudi Arabia was beseeching the world for aid from an aggresive military, namely Iraq's. If the US military were truly aggresive in the way you are putting it, we would have invaded half the cou8ntries in the world by now. Without a militay that is ready to fight, a country will very quickly find itself occupied by another country.

All by our government and all of these things are things we claim to think are wrong. We're not even civilized by our own standards or the standards of our own laws.

Moral relativism is pretending like this one action makes them primatives while our collective acts say nothing about us. It's hypocritical and silly.

I am not saying that Saudi Arabia is primative or otherwise, however we DO NOT brutaly (and yes some forms of execution aremuch more brutal then others) execute a woman because she is the victim of a crime. Naturally there will always be occasions where our system fails, nothing is perfect. However stoning a woman to death because she was raped!? Yes that is most assuredly UNCIVILIZED and BARBARIC.

I honestly believe that the Saudi Arabian government is the nearly perect government for a country that owns Mecca. That being said, this is one stupid legal decision. Their laws need a little work.

Before people get all hot and bothered about this, I should point out that every judicial system in every country occasionally drops the ball. I would not be too quick to condemn Saudi Arabia too much.

I'm sorry but condeming the VICTIM of a crime to death is more then dropping the ball, its dropping the A-Bomb. You say that ppl should not be so quick to slam the Saudi legal system for this, why not!? In NYC when 4 undercocer Narc cops shot and killed a suspect because he failed to comply and acted ina suspicius mannner(I am not even going to get into that debate,other then a point it has no bearing on this) Hiliry Clinton wanted the four officers severly punished even thoguh the coroners inquest ruled no murder gad been commited. So yes I belive the world should condemn the Saudis and quickly after all they are EXECUTING this woman! If action is not taken quickly she will ne HORRIBLY dead. The Saudis deserve a strong censure for thier callous act

In fact, if the King mitigates or pardons her this would be an example of the legal system working to achieve justice. This is preceisely why the executive needs a pardon or mitigation power.
First if they are so civi.ized they would not have such a barbaric law. Secondly while the king does indeed have such a power, has he done so?????? Actions or the lack of them speak far louder then words

Until I see a source besides Fox News, I remain skeptical.

Fox is supplied by Reuters like most everyone else including CNN and MSNBC. Tell me simply because the story came out on s pro-right newsgroup,that means you will ignore it? If the issue is veracity, I have seen CNN report many half-truths and outright lies. Not to mention, obviously you have access to the net corraverate the story yourself. Unless you simply wish to disbelive it becausew FOX reports it. However I think I am :headbang: