NationStates Jolt Archive

Thought brought in Constantine that I thought would be a good discussion that I have never seen around here before

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6204995.stm

Is it right for the catholic church to deny funeral rites because of suicide? and more specifically in the cases like above where it is euthanasia for a terminally ill and paralyzed patient

(poll coming) (edit watch poll wording and title wording could cause confusion, the title is in the negative poll options in the positive so watch it)

Ok with two misunderstandings so far to further clarify I am not saying they should not have the right to decide if they want to allow it or not, rather how do you morally feel about their decision and what would you allow

It's not like anything else in the dogma makes any particular sense, so why should this be any different?

Their rites, their buisness.

No, it is not right, and it never will be.
Many churches are assholish at best when it comes to things like this.

An example - Jewish graveyards:
If in life you were an asshole, a bigomist, and a rapist, you can still be buried in a jewish graveyard. However, if you got even the smallest tattoo... they would refuse to bury you.

If you're terminally ill however, I don't think you should opt for euthanasia. If you know you're going to die I believe you should sign wavers to let them use your living body for scientific research. If you're going to die anyhow, you should do the honorable thing and spend your final days finding a cure for whatever it is killing you, or to help find a way to treat a serious disease.

If ever I am terminally ill with no chance to survive, I will sign off my rights and become a research monkey for the scientists. Please note that although human experimentation is "illegal", you can choose willingly to have uncertified, unregulated drugs administered to you as a "test" to see how they affect you. This basically means you can choose freely to be a test subject for drug research.

That's what I plan to do if I near death.
And if I ever become brain-dead I'm leaving it in my living will: My brain is worthless, but my body isn't. Use it for science.

Their rites, their buisness.

Where did I say they did not have the right to decide their "rite"? just because it is their choice does not mean we can not think it is right or wrong in our own experiences

Oh wait, nevermind >_>

I forgive him, My sympathies are/were with him and his family, my heart goes out to the pain and suffering he must have been enduring...

He was an Italian Catholic? Then he and his family know the rules, it's not like they could have been surprised by them. Their rules, their game, you break the rules, they kick you out of the game... nothing wrong with that either.

Note: I do NOT think God is going to hold this against the man, if this is the only sin he ever committed (sin by catholic church standards) than he is likely forgiven and all is well between him and the Lord. However, the man that requested death when there was no immediate threat of spiteful vengeance and the intentional inducement of pain designed to harm him through hate (I.e., torture etc.,) then he was likely wrong to request death before it happens on its own. He has no idea how many people might have been influenced for good via his continued existence on this planet. Who is he to say they (the people that would have been helped by his continued existence) should not receive the encouragement to continue their personal existence, help that he could have provided them had he not allowed himself to die before it needed to occur?

Thought brought in Constantine that I thought would be a good discussion that I have never seen around here before

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6204995.stm

Is it right for the catholic church to deny funeral rites because of suicide? and more specifically in the cases like above where it is euthanasia for a terminally ill and paralyzed patient

(poll coming) (edit watch poll wording and title wording could cause confusion, the title is in the negative poll options in the positive so watch it)

Ok with two misunderstandings so far to further clarify I am not saying they should not have the right to decide if they want to allow it or not, rather how do you morally feel about their decision and what would you allow

for God sake! Are they seriously saying that they are denying rights to someone for not dying the slow and horrible way?

Yes.

Suicide because of depression is a serious (fatal) medical condition and disease, and should be regarded universally as such. Also, it is good to remember that any person driven to kill himself must have endured unspeakable suffering.

Suicide because of honor- say, a businessman or politician having some scheme found out - is the maximally honorable thing to do, and while it doesn't warrant any special acclaim in burial, does at minimum cause a sort of tabula rasa.

Ugh. That's patently ridiculous.

for God sake! Are they seriously saying that they are denying rights to someone for not dying the slow and horrible way?
It appears so

While the Church still considers suicide to be a mortal sin, it's modified it's stance somewhat. If a person wasn't in his or her "right mind" when he or she committed suicide, then the act wasn't a sin, because you can only sin if you're sane. Since a suicide is obviously not sane at the time, they didn't sin. At least this is what a Dominican priest once told me.

While the Church still considers suicide to be a mortal sin, it's modified it's stance somewhat. If a person wasn't in his or her "right mind" when he or she committed suicide, then the act wasn't a sin, because you can only sin if you're sane. Since a suicide is obviously not sane at the time, they didn't sin. At least this is what a Dominican priest once told me.
And to be fair in the states it seems like decision making falls on the shoulders of the bishops rather then any sort of blanket stance, but it does happen.

In the case of my neighbor recently stabbed his GF and Himself to death and they allowed the funeral (he was bi-poler and fell off the meds while at college and no one noticed in time)

Of course they should be allowed a funeral and such things, but under no circumstance should suicide be memorialized. People who commit suicide are not deserving notation on there exploits. Why? because to kill yourself is the ultimate cry of selfishness. The point where you are going to hurt to the max everyone else around you. The point where you are going to cause the greatest of pains to your freinds and family. Suicide is stupid. In its modern sense. There is difference between killing yourself in todays world because of stress and depression than like taking a bullet for someone. Or risking your life to save anothers. That should be memorialized as an example to follow. And the that is the ultimate cry selflessness is something that we should all strive for. You should be willing to die to save another persons life- I'm getting off topic...but yeah.

I think they have every right to do so.

I think they have every right to do so.

I pointed out fairly clearly the discussion is not about the right to do such but the moral quality of their decision and what your decision would be.

As such I would deffinatly like to get a Muslim perspective on it.

While the Church still considers suicide to be a mortal sin, it's modified it's stance somewhat. If a person wasn't in his or her "right mind" when he or she committed suicide, then the act wasn't a sin, because you can only sin if you're sane. Since a suicide is obviously not sane at the time, they didn't sin. At least this is what a Dominican priest once told me.

There are many circumstances in which a suicide to me seems the rational thing to do. Like being terminally ill and having the choice between a quick painless death or an agonising couple of months. Or being trapped with no hope of rescue in a place where you will soon be burned alive. Being 80 years old and believing one has lived long enough.
Hell - it can even be heroic, like a fireman choosing certain death to save a child. Or Jesus allowing others to nail him to the cross to save mankind.

Do you per chance know what the Churches stance is on those suicides ?

[QUOTE=New Granada;12397627]Yes.

Suicide because of depression is a serious (fatal) medical condition and disease, and should be regarded universally as such. Also, it is good to remember that any person driven to kill himself must have endured unspeakable suffering.

[QUOTE]

No. I know a man who went threw very very much more suffering when he was captured by the VietCong and spent several years as their guest. He suffered more than anything you can imagen. Mentally- Physically. He suffered more than any person thats killed themselves because of depression or stress. He could've killed himself many times. But he swallowed himself and he survived, and he's lived with it for his whole life. I dont care what someone thinks about pain in their everyday life. Theres other ways out than suicide and they should strive to defeat they're own inner problems.


they should be allowed to have funerals though- but memorializing suicide or glorifying it is an absolutley horrible lesson.

There are many circumstances in which a suicide to me seems the rational thing to do. Like being terminally ill and having the choice between a quick painless death or an agonising couple of months. Or being trapped with no hope of rescue in a place where you will soon be burned alive. Being 80 years old and believing one has lived long enough.
Hell - it can even be heroic, like a fireman choosing certain death to save a child. Or Jesus allowing others to nail him to the cross to save mankind.

Do you per chance know what the Churches stance is on those suicides ?

I would venture a guess that the Church would not consider individual motives, but would make the blanket statement that suicide is the act of a person not in his or her right mind (except for acts of self-sacrifice which would be considered the acts of saints and heroes and, hence, exempt from the concept of sin). But that's only a guess.

I dont care what someone thinks about pain in their everyday life. Theres other ways out than suicide and they should strive to defeat they're own inner problems.

What exactly gives you the right to decide what other people should or should not do with their own life ?

When you're dealing with Catholic rituals and rites, then you have to deal with their traditions and rules.

My brain is worthlessZombie think brain no worthless, but since you do I shall take it since you have no use of it then.

*Bites Head*

I pointed out fairly clearly the discussion is not about the right to do such but the moral quality of their decision and what your decision would be.

As such I would deffinatly like to get a Muslim perspective on it.

In that case, suicide is not allowed in Islam. They do get a funeral though as punishment for such a sin, they may not be prayed for by top officials or important people. Though personally, I think the Catholic chruch is morally justified in their decision.

I would venture a guess that the Church would not consider individual motives, but would make the blanket statement that suicide is the act of a person not in his or her right mind (except for acts of self-sacrifice which would be considered the acts of saints and heroes and, hence, exempt from the concept of sin). But that's only a guess.

self-sacrifice... what a good blanket term..
If I killed myself, but then rationalized that I was doing it for the benefit of others, as I was helping to lower the surplus population, would that be self-sacrifice? Or I could feel like everyone hated me and kill myself, rationalizing that they would be happier with me dead. After all, I would be sacrificing my life for their happiness.

Hmm... This raises yet ANOTHER question -
Isn't God kind of an asshole for expecting his son to be murdered at the hands of the very people he was trying to save, after being betrayed by one of the people he took in as his friend? Seems to me like God doesn't give a shit about his own son. But then again.. Since Jesus WAS literally God... did God really sacrifice anything? I mean... Jesus was him. Did God commit suicide? So many literal and figurative questions about the nature of God, Jesus, Crucifiction, Suicide, and all those other yummy arguments.

Zombie think brain no worthless, but since you do I shall take it since you have no use of it then.

*Bites Head*

GAHHH *drools all over himself and dies*

a bigomistWith most of the other things you are saying you state a person has the right to chose to live, but now how they live.

Marrying multiple persons seems quite alright with me in private as it is their own private business, but you are throwing them in rapists which can be basied bigomy is on the same level as rape.

Thefore since you support right to chose to live or die, but does not give people their choice to live and marry mulitple persons which therefore gives your arugment less strength.

What exactly gives you the right to decide what other people should or should not do with their own life ?

Because suicide is the ultimate act pure selfishness, and is doing nothing but hurting everyone around that person. I dont really give a shit about the statement "no-one knows me or loves me" because everyone has someone that does.

I would venture a guess that the Church would not consider individual motives, but would make the blanket statement that suicide is the act of a person not in his or her right mind (except for acts of self-sacrifice which would be considered the acts of saints and heroes and, hence, exempt from the concept of sin). But that's only a guess.To note most of the more well know saints and martyrs died when they refused to give up their faith. So it can be said from my own prespective as a Catholic that they refused to give up their faith and were therefore killed as a result as the real as they would rather die then relinquish their beliefs. As well, these acts can be easily said to be on par with people dying for other beliefs which is commonly, by secular groups, that self-sacrafice for a faith is not even related to suicide as they are not dying by their own hand and have the desire to live, but their belief for what they believe in drives them.

If you kill yourself and you're catholic, of course you should expect to not receive the burial rites. As always though heres the catch do you believe in god? If you said yes then you would still be going to hell, killing yourself is a mortal sin and god's a bastard that he said hey Jesus you're gonna die, trying to save assholes. But you will be going to heaven, but jesus was god, so did he allow himself to be killed even though he could've avoided it completely. Couldn't he have started over after the great flood, or was god just a lazy bastard? Anyway good question. And another note. God will not acquit you if you take his name in vain.:headbang:

With most of the other things you are saying you state a person has the right to chose to live, but now how they live.

Marrying multiple persons seems quite alright with me in private as it is their own private business, but you are throwing them in rapists which can be basied bigomy is on the same level as rape.

Thefore since you support right to chose to live or die, but does not give people their choice to live and marry mulitple persons which therefore gives your arugment less strength.

Actually, if you'll read again, my "argument" was actually just me stating a fact. I didn't lump in bigomists with rapists. I merely stated that as a Hebrew, you can be a bigomist or a rapist and still be buried in sacred ground, BUT getting a single tattoo denies you the right to such.

I don't give a damn if you marry 30 women, as long as you can deal with the skull splitting migraine that many women will give you. Rape is a disgusting thing that should be punished with the man having his cock burned with a blowtorch before having his eyes cut out and rammed into said phalic area.

If you kill yourself and you're catholic, of course you should expect to not receive the burial rites. As always though heres the catch do you believe in god? If you said yes then you would still be going to hell, killing yourself is a mortal sin and god's a bastard that he said hey Jesus you're gonna die, trying to save assholes. But you will be going to heaven, but jesus was god, so did he allow himself to be killed even though he could've avoided it completely. Couldn't he have started over after the great flood, or was god just a lazy bastard? Anyway good question. And another note. God will not acquit you if you take his name in vain.:headbang:
God will send me to Hell if I use his name in vain?
Fucking God dammit now I'm damned to fucking Hell. GOD DAMN IT TO HELL!

Like that?

God will send me to Hell if I use his name in vain?
Fucking God dammit now I'm damned to fucking Hell. GOD DAMN IT TO HELL!

Like that?*A bunch of ugly orange men come to your door and start to sing Wlly Wonka parodies*

Actually, if you'll read again, my "argument" was actually just me stating a fact. I didn't lump in bigomists with rapists. I merely stated that as a Hebrew, you can be a bigomist or a rapist and still be buried in sacred ground, BUT getting a single tattoo denies you the right to such.

I don't give a damn if you marry 30 women, as long as you can deal with the skull splitting migraine that many women will give you. Rape is a disgusting thing that should be punished with the man having his cock burned with a blowtorch before having his eyes cut out and rammed into said phalic area.Sorry, I am very argumentative and like to pick fights with people, Vikings, and Gaint Killer Monkeys.

Sorry, I am very argumentative and like to pick fights with people, Vikings, and Gaint Killer Monkeys.

Just don't pick fights with giant killer viking monkey people, or you're in for a Hell of a fight.

Just don't pick fights with giant killer viking monkey people, or you're in for a Hell of a fight.Never though of that.

*Grabs an axe and goes to the mountain jungles full of Gaint Killer Viking Monkey People and is not heard again of for two more as he been busy killing all of those folk*

Bury him for the sake of the family. They probably didn't do anything wrong. Why punish them?

Then again the proclivity of the Church claiming the moral high ground is very questionable....

Bury him for the sake of the family. They probably didn't do anything wrong. Why punish them?

Then again the proclivity of the Church claiming the moral high ground is very questionable....

What with the anal-raping priests and nuns being caught pleasuring each other...
Tsk Tsk Tsk... The church is a breeding ground for pent-up sexual desire. If only they were allowed to make sweet love to other people they wouldn't have these deeply compelling feelings leading them to anally raping an altar boy or experimenting with lesbianism....

A local church lost about half of it's regular.. err... "worshippers" (lol) after they found out he may have been touching one or more of the boys. I must say, none of my siblings ever went to a church "lockup" after that.

Of course they should be allowed a funeral and such things, but under no circumstance should suicide be memorialized. People who commit suicide are not deserving notation on there exploits.Funerals have nothing to do with the dead, and everything to do with the living. If the friends and family of a suicide want a grand funeral for the deceased then that is there right. This is all because funerals form an important part in the grieving process in society - at least the society I know.

If the Roman Catholic Church want to be jerks have withhold rites because of some arbitarty dogma then that is there perogative. If half the Roman Catholic Church want to split into an almost indentical church that gives rites to suicides then that is there perogative too.

As for me I'll continue in my immoral, corrupt, misguided and evil humanist ways.

Funerals have nothing to do with the dead, and everything to do with the living. If the friends and family of a suicide want a grand funeral for the deceased then that is there right. This is all because funerals form an important part in the grieving process in society - at least the society I know.

Actually funerals were originally intended to allow the spirit/soul of the dead to continue on to the afterlife, because they believed that without a proper funeral that person would forever remain on Earth, tormented by their own demons until someone set them free. In essence, a burial is like a banishment of a spirit from our world.

Also, dead bodies left unburied begin to rot and attract disease. Originally people thought this way due to the evil spirits causing harm to everyone around them as penance for not burying them. After a while people clued in to fester meat = disease.

I voted the "other" option.

Generally, I think that:

A catholic should accept the dogma. The catholic church says that suicide is a sin, so the suicide dies without repenting of it by confessing. No point arguing with a dogma: if you're catholic, you have to accept it - if you don't, you aren't catholic. So, no catholic funeral.

A christian (but not necessarily catholic) could say that the church has the mission of representing Christ on Earth, so, because of the love of God for humans etc christian funerals should be held for any christian independently of their sin status - we're all sinners after all, the ultimate judge is Christ, not any human, judge not lest thee be judged yourself...

I'm atheist and I actually think that the only purpose of a funeral is to lessen the suffering of the relatives of the loved one. So, do whatever you want with my corpse after I'm dead, and try to cheer up. Death is normal. Weep for yourself if you feel like it, but not for me, because when I die, I do not exist anymore.

I think they're pricks for it but I think they should have the right to decide who they bury in their grounds.

It's not as though the people concerned by this were forced to remain catholic (or in other examples mentioned, jewish with tatoos) - they were free to choose a religion more suited to them.

Well, it's their cemetary, they've got the right to refuse based on whatever they want.

Do I think it's stupid, arrogant and presumptious to do so? You bet. But I think that about a good few "Christian" practices and teachings, so it's nothing new really.

The catholic church (as with all religions) makes up its own rules. so they can decide whether or not to give him a religious funeral.

however, by being on a life support machine, surely this to can be argued that this is acting against gods will, as he is interferring in gods will - (i.e. he shoulda already be dead if it wasn't for the machine).

Refusing to perform a funeral because of suicide is no more ridiculous than some of the other rules of catholicism. Compare that to refusing to marry someone who has been divorced, or refusing to marry someone to a protestant. Prettu stupid stuff, but it's their religion.

Thought brought in Constantine that I thought would be a good discussion that I have never seen around here before

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6204995.stm

Is it right for the catholic church to deny funeral rites because of suicide? and more specifically in the cases like above where it is euthanasia for a terminally ill and paralyzed patient

(poll coming) (edit watch poll wording and title wording could cause confusion, the title is in the negative poll options in the positive so watch it)

Ok with two misunderstandings so far to further clarify I am not saying they should not have the right to decide if they want to allow it or not, rather how do you morally feel about their decision and what would you allow

The Catholic church does a lot of things that I find morally wrong. I really don't expect them to change, I want them to, but I don't expect they will.

As far as the suicide thing....I don't think that how you die determines your destiny, if you think about it, most martyrs are on suicide missions, it seems they get all kinds of reverence in the Catholic Church.

Although I don't like the law about suicide within Catholicism. I think its backward. But thats what they believe and if they don't want to perform the rites nobody should be able to make them.

Funerals aren't about the dead. The dead don't care. Either they're in heaven, hell, or have "embraced the void". Funerals are for the living, and the living committed no acts against the Catholic church. Therefore, the church should bury people who commit suicide. Their families suffer enough without the church making it worse.

Churches are as free as anyone else to do as they like. Most of them suck :eek:

Thought brought in Constantine that I thought would be a good discussion that I have never seen around here before

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6204995.stm

Is it right for the catholic church to deny funeral rites because of suicide? and more specifically in the cases like above where it is euthanasia for a terminally ill and paralyzed patient

(poll coming) (edit watch poll wording and title wording could cause confusion, the title is in the negative poll options in the positive so watch it)

Ok with two misunderstandings so far to further clarify I am not saying they should not have the right to decide if they want to allow it or not, rather how do you morally feel about their decision and what would you allow
I think the Catholic Church should stick to their guns and refuse to perform rights following a suicide. Of course, this is because I find Catholic services depressing and insulting, so I encourage the Church to decline to perform services whenever possible.

It's like how I strongly support the Church's efforts to exclude gays, women, people who use contraception, liberals, and anybody else they can think of...the more people they treat like crap, the less work I have to do to convince people to ditch them.

If you know you're going to die I believe you should sign wavers to let them use your living body for scientific research. If you're going to die anyhow, you should do the honorable thing and spend your final days finding a cure for whatever it is killing you, or to help find a way to treat a serious disease.

The tests really have to be done on a subject who is not under the influence of any other treatments, including painkillers. My (thankfully quite limited) experience of terminally ill people is that they are usually on enough morphine to kill a hippo, and they are still in pain.

Is it right for the catholic church to deny funeral rites because of suicide? and more specifically in the cases like above where it is euthanasia for a terminally ill and paralyzed patient



They can deny funeral rites for whatever reason they like. It's a religious ceremony, not a bloody human right.

I think the Catholic Church should stick to their guns and refuse to perform rights following a suicide. Of course, this is because I find Catholic services depressing and insulting, so I encourage the Church to decline to perform services whenever possible.

It's like how I strongly support the Church's efforts to exclude gays, women, people who use contraception, liberals, and anybody else they can think of...the more people they treat like crap, the less work I have to do to convince people to ditch them.

speaking of the bolded phrase.......you have a TG.

The Catholic church does a lot of things that I find morally wrong. I really don't expect them to change, I want them to, but I don't expect they will.

As far as the suicide thing....I don't think that how you die determines your destiny, if you think about it, most martyrs are on suicide missions, it seems they get all kinds of reverence in the Catholic Church.

Yeah never got that (specially when I was on the local fire department)
I find it an awsome thing that some people are willing to put their lives on the line but there are a few select people who went beyond that to almost having a death wish ...

There is a fine line between helping someone and throwing your life away at a lost cause, but because of how society views them all the sudden it is less of a suicide just because it had the potential of maybe helping someone

Always made me wonder if a person died skydiving if they would get a funeral ... the guy might as well have committed suicide, he was doing a crazy worthless dangerous activity that he knew damn right could get him killed for no good reason, yet does it anyways ... (when i say worthless I dont necessarily mean the bad connotations I have done it myself I just mean there is no achievement by it other then for the fun of it)

They can deny funeral rites for whatever reason they like. It's a religious ceremony, not a bloody human right.

Who said it was?

Hell in my OP I specifically say It is not about their right to do so but if it is by your standards morally right or wrong that they do so

Skip that part?

Much like a decent proportion of Christian philosophy, the suggestion that suicide warrants damnation is misguided. Firstly, if God fixes our time of death, his omnipotence would preclude our breaking it through suicide. Secondly, what is actually wrong with suicide? It was accepted in the ancient world as honourable, and I fail to see why not so at present.

When you embrace a religion you commit to live and die by it's rules. If you do something that denies you the right to a funeral in that faith, quit complaining. In the case of suicide if the family of the deceased is going to follow a religion they should follow the whole religion, not just pick and choose the parts that they like. If they're offended that their loved one can't get a funeral they should change religions.

I believe it is the Church's right to deny funeral rites in the case of euthanasia and suicide. This is not because I have any particular moral objection to suicide on some "ZOMG SINFUL" level, though suicide is a sad, deplorable road for someone to take out of this life.
The reason I think it's the Church's right to do so is because, well, it's their Church. It's their doctrine that says suicide is a sin for which burial rites can be denied, and they should be allowed to keep that policy. Until a major reform comes about such that suicide (any form of suicide) is no longer grounds for denial of burial rites, I don't find their decision not to grant them wrong.

speaking of the bolded phrase.......you have a TG.
Word. :D

Actually funerals were originally intended to allow the spirit/soul of the dead to continue on to the afterlife, because they believed that without a proper funeral that person would forever remain on Earth, tormented by their own demons until someone set them free. In essence, a burial is like a banishment of a spirit from our world.

Also, dead bodies left unburied begin to rot and attract disease. Originally people thought this way due to the evil spirits causing harm to everyone around them as penance for not burying them. After a while people clued in to fester meat = disease.You can't prove one way or another what happens after death. However, a funeral which is supposed to enable a spirit to pass on the next world is of more tangible benefit to the relatives as it puts their minds at rest as they do not believe their relative is being tormented on earth. The same logic is just as easily applied to the burial of rotting bodies as well.

How a practice develops is of less concern to me than to how people react to the same practice in the present. As it stands funerals are an integeral part of the grieving process for many people in societies around the world today.

I do not believe it is especially useful to tell a grieving person that a close friend or relative who has commited suicide is now burning in hell, and will do so for all eternity.

You can't prove one way or another what happens after death. However, a funeral which is supposed to enable a spirit to pass on the next world is of more tangible benefit to the relatives as it puts their minds at rest as they do not believe their relative is being tormented on earth. The same logic is just as easily applied to the burial of rotting bodies as well.

How a practice develops is of less concern to me than to how people react to the same practice in the present. As it stands funerals are an integeral part of the grieving process for many people in societies around the world today.

I do not believe it is especially useful to tell a grieving person that a close friend or relative who has commited suicide is now burning in hell, and will do so for all eternity.

While it's true that, were someone to tell that to a grieving person, they would be the biggest assholes in the world, that still doesn't make it necessary for the Catholic Church to perform funerals rites for their loved one if he/she committed suicide.

While it's true that, were someone to tell that to a grieving person, they would be the biggest assholes in the world, that still doesn't make it necessary for the Catholic Church to perform funerals rites for their loved one if he/she committed suicide.Necessary is an odd word to use. My viewpoint is that the Catholic Church should offer funeral rites to those who have commited suicide, but I do not believe it is the state's business to force the Catholic Church to do so. If there is to be a change it needs to come from within the Catholic Church.

It's right if you follow some interpretations of the natural law doctorine, which is what the Catholic Church is based on. I'm going to be pro forcing the catholic church to change it's fundamental doctorine.

Let's be honest here. A funeral isn't about the person being buried/cremated/etc. It's about the friends and family who need a chance to mourn that person and feel that they carried out the wishes of that person. The Catholic Church puts a bunch of pomp and ceremony on it, but that's really what it amounts to in the end. What we do after someone's death isn't going to change the relationship that person had with God.

As such, while I certainly wouldn't claim that they can't do it, I do think the Church is doing the wrong thing here. All they are doing is causing further suffering to a family that has already suffered enough.

Meanwhile, this man didn't commit suicide. He didn't even have euthanasia performed. All he did is refuse treatment. He decided that he would no longer accept the treatment of being on machines that would keep him alive. Is the Catholic Church going to deny Last Rites to the next cancer patient who refuses chemotherapy and decides, instead, to die quietly in their bed at home?

Let's be honest here. A funeral isn't about the person being buried/cremated/etc. It's about the friends and family who need a chance to mourn that person and feel that they carried out the wishes of that person. The Catholic Church puts a bunch of pomp and ceremony on it, but that's really what it amounts to in the end. What we do after someone's death isn't going to change the relationship that person had with God.

As such, while I certainly wouldn't claim that they can't do it, I do think the Church is doing the wrong thing here. All they are doing is causing further suffering to a family that has already suffered enough.

Meanwhile, this man didn't commit suicide. He didn't even have euthanasia performed. All he did is refuse treatment. He decided that he would no longer accept the treatment of being on machines that would keep him alive. Is the Catholic Church going to deny Last Rites to the next cancer patient who refuses chemotherapy and decides, instead, to die quietly in their bed at home?

Agreed across the board :fluffle: (been months sense I have used a fluffle ... back in the day I was fluffle king)

It's not like anything else in the dogma makes any particular sense, so why should this be any different?

What? Chris Rock was brilliant and I thought the entire script made perfect sense.

What? Chris Rock was brilliant and I thought the entire script made perfect sense.

*groan*

The Catholic Church's position on suicide is fairly high on the list of reasons that I am no longer a Catholic.

The Catholic Church's position on suicide is fairly high on the list of reasons that I am no longer a Catholic.

One of my reasons as well

I say the same for any religious institution that I said in the Cherokee thread: They are there own organization and have the right to make these kind of decisions as they see fit. The only reason the state interfered in the gay marriage issue is that the state had issued the marriage licenses. In this matter, the state has no jurisdiction and should not interfere.

I say the same for any religious institution that I said in the Cherokee thread: They are there own organization and have the right to make these kind of decisions as they see fit. The only reason the state interfered in the gay marriage issue is that the state had issued the marriage licenses. In this matter, the state has no jurisdiction and should not interfere.

The OP states that this is not about their "Right" to decide their religious practices but if you think they are morally right. Stated very clearly.

The OP states that this is not about their "Right" to decide their religious practices but if you think they are morally right. Stated very clearly.

I realize that, I just don't usually draw moral distinctions about things involving churches. If I were to say the action was right or wrong I would be slapping two different moral codes together and judging theres by mine.

I do not see the point in that, and any moral question posed to me will follow that pattern.

I can understand the Catholics' point, even though I don't agree with it: suicide is one of the worst sins, and therefore should incur some sort of disciplinary action.

I just don't think they've thought this thing through. All other sinners will get the burial rites. Just because suiciders tend to die in the process of committing their sin, it shouldn't make a difference. Whether the person has any business trying to get into Heaven, is entirely between him and God, and there is no point in punishing his dead corpse here on Earth anymore.

I can understand the Catholics' point, even though I don't agree with it: suicide is one of the worst sins, and therefore should incur some sort of disciplinary action.
why do you say suicide is one of the worst sins?

why do you say suicide is one of the worst sins?Isn't suicide usually considered a capital sin? And if you die having not repented commiting a mortal sin then you cannot enter heaven. That's my understanding.

Ugh. That's patently ridiculous.

If I understand it correctly, you can be buried -- just not in a Catholic burial ground.

It goes back to suicide being murder -- a mortal sin, and one you cannot ever repent of.

why do you say suicide is one of the worst sins?

I remember hearing that Catholics consider it the worst possible sin, because unlike other sins, you cannot regret suicide afterwards, and getting into Heaven doesn't depend on what sins you have committed, but on whether you regret them.

(I don't personally agree with it, sorry if I gave that impression.)

If I understand it correctly, you can be buried -- just not in a Catholic burial ground.

It goes back to suicide being murder -- a mortal sin, and one you cannot ever repent of.Woah... that's contrary to my understanding. I understand it as either that you are only able to repent mortal sin once, after that you repentance is no accepted as sincere. OR that you can commit as much mortal sin as you want and repent it all later and then have to work off your sin in purgatory. If you die in sin you cannot enter heaven. However, if you died in venal sin you can earn forgiveness in purgatory, but not if you died in mortal sin.

why do you say suicide is one of the worst sins?

Isnt it supposed to be God's gift, and you are taking that gift for yourself?

I think they should give the funeral, but I believe that if it was straight suicide, they have some right to deny a funeral. It seems like they were doing passive euthanasia, which I think is a different story. That is not ending your life directly, and the Church is fuzzy on its acceptance.

Short answer: No

Long answer: Noo

Thought brought in Constantine that I thought would be a good discussion that I have never seen around here before

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6204995.stm

Is it right for the catholic church to deny funeral rites because of suicide? and more specifically in the cases like above where it is euthanasia for a terminally ill and paralyzed patient

(poll coming) (edit watch poll wording and title wording could cause confusion, the title is in the negative poll options in the positive so watch it)

Ok with two misunderstandings so far to further clarify I am not saying they should not have the right to decide if they want to allow it or not, rather how do you morally feel about their decision and what would you allow

It's not good, and I'd allow it.

Short answer: No

Long answer: NooAre you going to dignify that answer with any form of reasoning?

No, as the catholic church doesn't seem to operate by reason either.Heh :p

... wait, what do actually mean? Are you siding with the Catholic Church or with the Euthansia-and-funeral-rites group?

Are you going to dignify that answer with any form of reasoning?

No, as the catholic church doesn't seem to operate by reason either.

Heh :p

... wait, what do actually mean? Are you siding with the Catholic Church or with the Euthansia-and-funeral-rites group?

I'm pro-suicide.

It's confusing because the quiz question is opposite of the damn thread title :p

Aw crap. I should have read the OP before voting.

I'm pro-suicide.

It's confusing because the quiz question is opposite of the damn thread title :pOooh, I misunderstood you then.

Yes, very confusing.

Funeral rites should be available to all. We do not know all the circumstances around why the person acted the way they did, mental state etc and it is a human judgement to say they can not have funeral rites. In my mind it is better to allow all to have funeral rites, God can then judge, not man.

Also funeral rites help the grieving Family

Because suicide is the ultimate act pure selfishness, and is doing nothing but hurting everyone around that person. I dont really give a shit about the statement "no-one knows me or loves me" because everyone has someone that does.

So let me get this straight...

Not wishing to live on in misery and possibly great pain is selfish.

Forcing someone else to live on against their will in misery and great pain because that someones death would hurt you is... not selfish ?

Right.

Isn't suicide usually considered a capital sin? And if you die having not repented commiting a mortal sin then you cannot enter heaven. That's my understanding.
I don't believe in "mortal" sins, so it always confuses me for a second before I remember that other people do.






Isnt it supposed to be God's gift, and you are taking that gift for yourself?
life is God's gift?

I think they should give the funeral, but I believe that if it was straight suicide, they have some right to deny a funeral. It seems like they were doing passive euthanasia, which I think is a different story. That is not ending your life directly, and the Church is fuzzy on its acceptance.
what's the difference in your mind between "straight suicide", euthanasia, and martyrs?

I remember hearing that Catholics consider it the worst possible sin, because unlike other sins, you cannot regret suicide afterwards, and getting into Heaven doesn't depend on what sins you have committed, but on whether you regret them.

(I don't personally agree with it, sorry if I gave that impression.)

Well the part about suicide being the worst possible sin is pretty close to correct. However, recently the Church has been more forgiving towards suicide because they realize that most people committing suicide are very mentally unstable, robbing them of the complete consent of their will which is one of the requirements for a sin, venial or mortal. As to regret being enough to get you into Heaven, that's not exactly correct. If you have committed a mortal sin, there are several ways to be forgiven, but 3 that are most common: 1) Go to confession and receive absolution; 2) Have perfect contrition for your sins (sort of like regret) However, perfect contrition requires the sinner to be truly sorry for their sins because they offend God, not only because if they don't repent they will go to Hell (which is imperfect contrition, all that is required for a confession.) Perfect contrition also requires the person to intend on going to confession if possible, but if someone was in a carcrash or something else that gives them not much time to live, perfect contrition is enough 3) The person is unconscious or otherwise unable to make a confession, and a priest gives them Annointing of the Sick (formerly called the Last Rites of Extreme Unction.) Because a someone who murders himself cannot meet any of these three requirements, they cannot be forgiven of their mortal sin, and so they would go to Hell. However, as I mentioned before, the vast majority of suicide victims are mentally unstable which prevents them from being fully in control of their will which is a requirement for a sin. Therefore most suicides are not sins because a madman cannot sin unless he truly knows and understands what he is doing. Euthanasia can more often be sinful, but most of the sin is on the part of the doctor or whoever else actually kills the victim, and if the pain the person suffers is so great it may only be a venial sin which does not prevent people from going to Heaven, but requires that they be cleansed in Purgatory. (Almost everyone must go to Purgatory for at least some time, because no one is completely free from sin, exceptions are people who received Annointing of the Sick and the Viaticum soon before death, or people who frequently received the Eucharist and indulgences.)

Note: I tried to explain the Church's position on suicide, you don't have to believe it, but please don't attack my statements, I'm just trying to help people better understand what the Church teaches, not get into an arguement. Also, I voted maybe on the poll because as I said, most suicides are not actually sins.

Well the part about suicide being the worst possible sin is pretty close to correct. However, recently the Church has been more forgiving towards suicide because they realize that most people committing suicide are very mentally unstable, robbing them of the complete consent of their will which is one of the requirements for a sin, venial or mortal. As to regret being enough to get you into Heaven, that's not exactly correct. If you have committed a mortal sin, there are several ways to be forgiven, but 3 that are most common: 1) Go to confession and receive absolution; 2) Have perfect contrition for your sins (sort of like regret) However, perfect contrition requires the sinner to be truly sorry for their sins because they offend God, not only because if they don't repent they will go to Hell (which is imperfect contrition, all that is required for a confession.) Perfect contrition also requires the person to intend on going to confession if possible, but if someone was in a carcrash or something else that gives them not much time to live, perfect contrition is enough 3) The person is unconscious or otherwise unable to make a confession, and a priest gives them Annointing of the Sick (formerly called the Last Rites of Extreme Unction.) Because a someone who murders himself cannot meet any of these three requirements, they cannot be forgiven of their mortal sin, and so they would go to Hell. However, as I mentioned before, the vast majority of suicide victims are mentally unstable which prevents them from being fully in control of their will which is a requirement for a sin. Therefore most suicides are not sins because a madman cannot sin unless he truly knows and understands what he is doing. Euthanasia can more often be sinful, but most of the sin is on the part of the doctor or whoever else actually kills the victim, and if the pain the person suffers is so great it may only be a venial sin which does not prevent people from going to Heaven, but requires that they be cleansed in Purgatory. (Almost everyone must go to Purgatory for at least some time, because no one is completely free from sin, exceptions are people who received Annointing of the Sick and the Viaticum soon before death, or people who frequently received the Eucharist and indulgences.)

Note: I tried to explain the Church's position on suicide, you don't have to believe it, but please don't attack my statements, I'm just trying to help people better understand what the Church teaches, not get into an arguement. Also, I voted maybe on the poll because as I said, most suicides are not actually sins.

Thanks for clearing that out. I have no desire to attack your statements, and I'm very curious about how other sects do things. We Lutherans have no Confession or Annointing of the Sick, so for us, it mostly comes down to regret. I really should finish reading the Bible to get a clearer picture of these things; I started at confirmation school ten years ago, but didn't get further than halfway through the Old Testament.

But it just further proves my point that the church hasn't really thought this through. Since they can never know for sure how sane the person was at the time, they'd be better off burying everyone according to the rites, and letting God sort them out.

Simply reading the OP and no other posts,

Yes, the Church, whatever church, can do what it likes, just as my newly formed Church of the Latter Day Mojitos will not perform funeral rites to anyone who hasn't died after drinking too many mojitos towards the latter part of the day - harsh but rules are rules

But it just further proves my point that the church hasn't really thought this through. Since they can never know for sure how sane the person was at the time, they'd be better off burying everyone according to the rites, and letting God sort them out.

I personally believe that suicide victims will eventually be allowed to receive funeral rites and be buried. Funeral rites and Christian burial were once witheld from matadors killed while bullfighting because it was considered very reckless and risking death for no good reason. That is no longer the case, and whether all suicide victims are allowed funeral rites, my guess is that some will by the end of the decade.

This is one instance where I think the body of the suicide should be thrown in the dump. What a shitty piece of work this guy was.

http://news.aol.com/topnews/articles/_a/pilot-called-ex-wife-before-fatal-crash/20070306022309990001?cid=2359

I'm pro-suicide.

It's confusing because the quiz question is opposite of the damn thread title :p

Im sorry and I realized that after creating them which is why the OP has the warning ...

Whoops!Voted for the wrong one,didnt read it correctly first.
The Church should NOT grant funeral rights to suicides.They are sinful,extremely so.It may seem mean,but its based upon the belief that suicide is wrong and should be treated not the same as natural death.

Whoops!Voted for the wrong one,didnt read it correctly first.
The Church should NOT grant funeral rights to suicides.They are sinful,extremely so.It may seem mean,but its based upon the belief that suicide is wrong and should be treated not the same as natural death.

Yeah deprive a family of comfort because the guy fucked up ...

A death is a death no matter how one looks at it. Yeah the guy wanted to get out easy but that dosent mean that they can't at least have some sort of dignity or at least for the family to let them have some sort of closure from all that has gone on.

A death is a death no matter how one looks at it. Yeah the guy wanted to get out easy but that dosent mean that they can't at least have some sort of dignity or at least for the family to let them have some sort of closure from all that has gone on.

Yeah cause suffering from a debilitating humiliating painful deasese till you think it would be better dead is the "easy" way

This guy had no life left, not really

If he wanted to stick it out till the very end I would deffinatly support that but in that situation ... I don't begrudge him a thing

Their rites, their buisness.

I second this motion.

I second this motion.

But that is not the question asked by the OP.
The question is: "do you agree with them".

Thought brought in Constantine that I thought would be a good discussion that I have never seen around here before

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6204995.stm

Is it right for the catholic church to deny funeral rites because of suicide? and more specifically in the cases like above where it is euthanasia for a terminally ill and paralyzed patient

(poll coming) (edit watch poll wording and title wording could cause confusion, the title is in the negative poll options in the positive so watch it)

Ok with two misunderstandings so far to further clarify I am not saying they should not have the right to decide if they want to allow it or not, rather how do you morally feel about their decision and what would you allow

It's fine with me. If you are a Catholic, you already know this in advance of your suicide.

If you want rites, belong to another church.

It's fine with me. If you are a Catholic, you already know this in advance of your suicide.

If you want rites, belong to another church.

But your family doesn't get to make that choice. They don't know in advance that you'll commit suicide and the Catholic Church is denying something to the families by denying funeral rites. You're dead. This isn't a matter of what decisions you made but of the fact that the family is revictimized by not being able to inter their loved one properly.

But your family doesn't get to make that choice. They don't know in advance that you'll commit suicide and the Catholic Church is denying something to the families by denying funeral rites. You're dead. This isn't a matter of what decisions you made but of the fact that the family is revictimized by not being able to inter their loved one properly.

Your family knows the rules too. It's the person who commits the suicide who is screwing up everything - not the Church. It's not like the Church is changing its rules at the last minute.

Your family knows the rules too. It's the person who commits the suicide who is screwing up everything - not the Church. It's not like the Church is changing its rules at the last minute.

They are in some cases ... as is the Catholic church leaves funeral rites up to the bishop of the area if they determine the person was in their right mind. So right now they CAN "Change the rules"
Edit: Example my neighbor like I said before was bi-poler stabed his GF to death then stabbed himself to death , in that case the churth DID allow the burial, though about 7 years ago when one of the kids raped by the local priest blew his head of with a shot gun he was NOT allowed a burial

And in the case of many many many suicides the person is no where near in the right state of mind to make any decision, so yeah he fucks up but the church does not have to compound his error

Your family knows the rules too. It's the person who commits the suicide who is screwing up everything - not the Church. It's not like the Church is changing its rules at the last minute.

But the Church is punishing your family for your sin. That's the point. Yes the suicidal person made the first transgression against the family, but the church is exasperating their pain and suffering. The Church should do everything in their power to do the exact opposite.