NationStates Jolt Archive

And no, I'm not talking about contraceptives.

From the Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/04/AR2007030401321.html) (scroll down to see the article):

During a White House meeting last week, a group of governors asked President Bush and Marine Gen. Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, about their backup plan for Iraq. What would the administration do if its new strategy didn't work?

The conclusion they took away, the governors later said, was that there is no Plan B. "I'm a Marine," Pace told them, "and Marines don't talk about failure. They talk about victory."

Pace had a simple way of summarizing the administration's position, Gov. Phil Bredesen (D-Tenn.) recalled. "Plan B was to make Plan A work."
Any substantive administration planning for other contingencies is occurring at the margins of policy, far from key decision-makers. "Planners plan, but I don't think anyone is saying, 'Let's do the partition,' or 'Let's pull back and let Baghdad burn,' " one Pentagon official said. "That would be a tectonic shift. That would be catastrophic failure."
Pressed to specify U.S. limits, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice promised the Senate Foreign Relations Committee that there would be ample opportunity "to see whether or not in fact the Iraqis are living up to the assurances they gave us."

"And what if they don't?" Sen. John F. Kerry (D-Mass.) asked.

"I don't think you go to Plan B," Rice replied. "You work with Plan A."

Oh, Mr. President, don't worry about contingencies or back-ups. There's no need, no need in the least. After all, as you so sagaciously said yourself:

The war began on my watch -- but it's going to end on your watch.

How are we going to clean up his mess, given the fact that he's not even considering the possibility of failure there?

How are we going to clean up his mess, given the fact that he's not even considering the possibility of failure there?

With GWB, the finest mind of his generation, at the helm how could we possibly fail?

And no, I'm not talking about contraceptives.

From the Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/04/AR2007030401321.html) (scroll down to see the article):





Oh, Mr. President, don't worry about contingencies or back-ups. There's no need, no need in the least. After all, as you so sagaciously said yourself:



How are we going to clean up his mess, given the fact that he's not even considering the possibility of failure there?

Holy shit.

Its not like this has been the first time in history anything like this has happend either.

With the US alone, you have Vietnam.
With Russia you have Afghanistan
With Spain you have the Philippines.
With Britain you have, well, a lot really...

My point being: We should have learned by now that not all fights are worth winning, and cutting and running is sometimes a great idea.

The time for a coup was never greater.

*runs*

I am shocked. Shocked and dismayed.

I think apologising to the world for plan A would be a good first step. It'd probably be the final nail in the coffin of our Labour government, but that's their fault. In particular, Tony's fault. Yeah, let's blame everything on Tony, that'll work.

I am shocked. Shocked and dismayed.

I'm not shocked, nor awed. Being shocked would mean I would have to expect more from the worst leader in American History.

Its not like this has been the first time in history anything like this has happend either.

With the US alone, you have Vietnam.
With Russia you have Afghanistan
With Spain you have the Philippines.
With Britain you have, well, a lot really...

My point being: We should have learned by now that not all fights are worth winning, and cutting and running is sometimes a great idea.

Not sure what you mean there. My own country was stupid enough to want a piece of the Vietnam war.

I'm not shocked, nor awed. Being shocked would mean I would have to expect more from the worst leader in American History.

Without Iraq, he wouldn't be that. He'd just be a corrupt playboy, and you'd probably be giving the gong to Nixon.

Without Iraq, he wouldn't be that. He'd just be a corrupt playboy, and you'd probably be giving the gong to Nixon.

Katrina, Patriot Act, Horrific Budgeting, No Child Left Behind Act (Took money away from public schools in NJ), and his idea for Social Security is retarded at best. If he declares war on Iran then he will make Hoover look like FDR.

No Plan B is a Very Bad Idea.

http://www.workingforchange.com/webgraphics/wfc/TMW10-19-05.jpg

http://www.workingforchange.com/webgraphics/WFC/TMW011707.jpg

I am shocked. Shocked and dismayed.

I am hungry. Hungry and horny. :)

I am hungry. Hungry and horny. :)

The latter goes without saying, and I got a bj, like, two-three hours ago. Libido can be a chore, sometimes.

I am hungry. Hungry and horny. :)
Hearing you say that has made me very frightened - and grateful I'm living several thousand km's away from you.

Not sure what you mean there. My own country was stupid enough to want a piece of the Vietnam war.

I meant as an example alone. I'm well aware that Vietnam was a war that made fools of many countries. France, for example, before the US even entered.

I am hungry. Hungry and horny. :)

*gives LG a donut*

*gives LG a donut*
*shudders at the thought of what a hungry AND horny LG might do with said donut*

*shudders at the thought of what a hungry AND horny LG might do with said donut*

Yeah, perhaps that wasn't the most responsible thing I ever did. Poor LG might hurt himself :eek:

I pronounce this thread spammable. The Washington Post article is pretty thin.

I meant as an example alone. I'm well aware that Vietnam was a war that made fools of many countries. France, for example, before the US even entered.
I wouldn't say Vietnam made fools of France: they got to get out of a losing battle to retain their colonies without losing too much face, while the US took the fall as the imperialist jerks and the idiots who got run off by a bunch ill-dressed peasants.

*shudders at the thought of what a hungry AND horny LG might do with said donut*

It is multi-purpose food. Reminds me of a story I heard about the Deke House--probably urban legend. It involved a sorority getting a bunch of donuts one morning and then a Polaroid the next.

I wouldn't say Vietnam made fools of France: they got to get out of a losing battle to retain their colonies without losing too much face, while the US took the fall as the imperialist jerks and the idiots who got run off by a bunch ill-dressed peasants.

Yeah, I'd say France was much more embarassed by Algeria than Vietnam.

Katrina, Patriot Act, Horrific Budgeting, No Child Left Behind Act (Took money away from public schools in NJ), and his idea for Social Security is retarded at best. If he declares war on Iran then he will make Hoover look like FDR.

Yes, no and sort of.
My reason for saying no to some of those terrible things is that they took Congress's complicity to make them happen. The craziness of cutting taxes when you need to spend big on a war doesn't compare with Reagan's effort, so that's the sort of.

Nixon was a good president, but for using the power of the presidency to try to hide a corrupt act of his own.
GWB is a lesser president, but couldn't have done most of those things without majorities in the houses. Iraq is his Watergate.

Let's see, first, we involve ourselves in a problem that really shouldn't have been poked in the first place.

Then we go and state that we accomplished our objective (mission).

Now we apparently haven't, and so we are augementing our operations to try to deal with that.

We have yet to figure out how to finish.

Should this "not be a victory," since I'm not allowed to use the word "Fai1," we don't have a further "augmentation" to fall back on.

Press release, 2025:

In surprising news this week, the medical examiner's office responsible for performing the autopsy on Former President George Walker Bush discovered that he had lived the later part of his years without a brain. While it was quickly established that the single worst president in U.S. history had lost his brain during the Vietnam War while he was partying, it remains to be seen how a man without an operating cerebrum could actually have survived. Across the nation, the news was greeted by very little surprise. The biggest reaction came from neurosurgeon researchers that have realized the potential that this holds for possible brain transplants in the near future.

Yes, no and sort of.


Maybe it's my utter hatred for Republicans and Conservatives showing.

I forgot Reagen, that man may have been Lucifer himself.

*shudders at the thought of what a hungry AND horny LG might do with said donut*

*also shudders*

Maybe it's my utter hatred for Republicans and Conservatives showing.

I forgot Reagen, that man may have been Lucifer himself.

Why are you sugar-coating it? Tell us how you really feel.

And for all the things I blame Bush for-Iraq, Diplomatic failures, Patriot Act, NCLB...Katrina is not one of them. If anything put the plight of New Orleans in perspective, its that their thinking had been so corroded that they'd put that ineffectual, pompous, and short-sighted weasel Nagin back in office

I wouldn't say Vietnam made fools of France: they got to get out of a losing battle to retain their colonies without losing too much face, while the US took the fall as the imperialist jerks and the idiots who got run off by a bunch ill-dressed peasants.

Contrariwise, Vietnam was a demonstration that sometimes democracy actually works, allowing the country to back away from a Very Bad Idea which seemed a good idea when they first voted for it.
Kings and dictators don't have that option. The loss of face would be fatal.

uhh...what the hell was Plan A?

We are starting to get a taste of why history will judge this misadministration so harshly and fairly.

Contrariwise, Vietnam was a demonstration that sometimes democracy actually works, allowing the country to back away from a Very Bad Idea which seemed a good idea when they first voted for it.
Kings and dictators don't have that option. The loss of face would be fatal.

Vietnam is also good for perspective. As much as we like to make it seem like the woes of our generation are the worst, Iraq has not yet bordered Vietnam in terms of Troop casualties and horrors wrought. (Agent orange still causing problems) and when it seems like the Republicans are the evil incarnate, it is best to remember the inaction of the Democrats on Vietnam. Democrats brought us in and more of them refused to let us out. If you can thank Nixon for nothing else, It was getting us out of there.

Why are you sugar-coating it? Tell us how you really feel.

And for all the things I blame Bush for-Iraq, Diplomatic failures, Patriot Act, NCLB...Katrina is not one of them. If anything put the plight of New Orleans in perspective, its that their thinking had been so corroded that they'd put that ineffectual, pompous, and short-sighted weasel Nagin back in office

I don't blame Bush for Katrina, I am sickened by his response.

During he was on the longest presidential vacation in 40 some years eating cake with McCain and riding his bike. Then the closet he ever gets is flying over the city and saying: "Wow it's bad down there."

Oh but he cut his break a whole two days short, poor thing.

I never thought Nixon was that bad aside from Watergate. Opening relations with China and ending that fumblejuck in Vietnam was a + in my book.

uhh...what the hell was Plan A?

Part 1: Invade based on lies and without enough troops to quell an insurgency in the early days.

Part 2: ??????????

Part 3: Profits!

I don't blame Bush for Katrina, I am sickened by his response.

During he was on the longest presidential vacation in 40 some years eating cake with McCain and riding his bike. Then the closet he ever gets is flying over the city and saying: "Wow it's bad down there."

Oh but he cut his break a whole two days short, poor thing.

I never thought Nixon was that bad aside from Watergate. Opening relations with China and ending that fumblejuck in Vietnam was a + in my book.
It was an administration-wide failure too. Cheney was fishing in Wyoming, and Rice was shoe-shopping and Spamalot-ing in NYC. I think the limo driver was in charge at the White House.

It was an administration-wide failure too. Cheney was fishing in Wyoming, and Rice was shoe-shopping and Spamalot-ing in NYC. I think the limo driver was in charge at the White House.

At least Rice was yelled at by a civilian whom she had trown out. I guess we aren't allowed to critque the administration.

"You spend thousands of dollars on shoes and you don't even send any of that to New Orleans!"

uhh...what the hell was Plan A?

Plan A was "Win a quick war in the Middle East. It increases productivity and bangs up the price of oil, then when we win it goes down. Profit, profit, profit. Oh, and it leaves a real mess for the next guy who gets in! Mmwhahaha!"

Plan B was "Oh, shit, the next guy was me! Who would have guessed? Can we string this out for another four years?"

There is no plan B. :D

Part 1: Invade based on lies and without enough troops to quell an insurgency in the early days.

Part 2: ??????????

Part 3: Profits!

More like Plan A: Win.

Plan B: Who needs it, you already won!

It was an administration-wide failure too. Cheney was fishing in Wyoming, and Rice was shoe-shopping and Spamalot-ing in NYC. I think the limo driver was in charge at the White House.
Not to mention that Michael "heckuva job" Brown was exchanging fashion tips and looking for a dog-sitter.

No, really (http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2005/images/11/03/brown.emails.pdf). PDF file, pages 16-18, 23-26. I especially like the part on page 25 where he says, "I'm trapped now, please rescue me."

The time for a coup was never greater.

*runs*

*chases down, touches with coup stick, carves another notch in coup stick*

Not to mention that Michael "heckuva job" Brown was exchanging fashion tips and looking for a dog-sitter.

No, really (http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2005/images/11/03/brown.emails.pdf). PDF file, pages 16-18, 23-26. I especially like the part on page 25 where he says, "I'm trapped now, please rescue me."
Oh, you don't have to tell me. I had family and friends there. My daughter evacuated to Atlanta and then came to live with me for a year afterward. But bad a Brownie was, the real fuckhead was Chertoff, because he didn't release the necessary resources to let FEMA and the military do their jobs.

Some Presidents prefer the Pyramid method of staff organization, and others prefer the Circular method.

Bush, however, prefers the Hot Air Balloon method of organization. Pretty colors on the outside, but on the inside, his administration is full of hot air, and barely staying afloat.

How are we going to clean up his mess, given the fact that he's not even considering the possibility of failure there?

At this point we do not even have the ability to start to clean up the mess.

We are starting to get a taste of why history will judge this misadministration so harshly and fairly.

Starting? Starting?

I am hungry. Hungry and horny. :)

*nods*
People, please!
We're all frightened and horny, but we can't let some killer dolphins keep us from living and scoring!

uhh...what the hell was Plan A?

I really don't think anyone in the government knows. Near as I can see it's just see how long they can hold out playing the ignorance card.

Vietnam is also good for perspective. As much as we like to make it seem like the woes of our generation are the worst, Iraq has not yet bordered Vietnam in terms of Troop casualties and horrors wrought. (Agent orange still causing problems) and when it seems like the Republicans are the evil incarnate, it is best to remember the inaction of the Democrats on Vietnam. Democrats brought us in and more of them refused to let us out. If you can thank Nixon for nothing else, It was getting us out of there.

Staggered terms in different houses, differing lengths of term, regulating factors like the High Court (Supreme Court to Statesiders), and our respective Constitutions all help to reduce the quite serious risk of democracy going chaotic. (I thought the word for "over-reacting, then over-reacting to that, until the whole thing hits some kind of limit and crashes" was "hysteresis." Wikipedia doesn't bear that out, though. "Fishtailing" perhaps?)

This might offend some Statesiders, since I don't really know much about it, but it seems to me that ever since Nixon, every President has been homely and simplistic, they talk dumb even if they aren't.

Ford (not elected, I know). Just plain dumb.
Carter. Peanuts, Suez canal, end the cold war, back to peanuts. Slipped it in there.
Reagan. Funny and likeable. Turned dumb when the going got tough.
Bush I. Substituted conviction for persuasion. Unexplained pauses between words.
Clinton. A bit smart. Way, way too smart in the pants dept. Luckily that was none of our business.
Bush II. Clinton was a close call. This time we want a real idiot. Dubya's the man!
The Ficus. It's so dumb, you need to water it to keep it from dying. Ficus is our President! 12 more years!

uhh...what the hell was Plan A?
Funny question, that.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/politics/4600344.html

Some lawmakers also accused the FDA of bowing to political pressure from social conservatives when it delayed approval of the Plan B "morning after" contraceptive pill for over-the-counter use after an expert panel had approved it. The drug was ultimately cleared last year for women 18 and older without a prescription after several Democrats threatened to block von Eschenbach's confirmation.

It would appear that the name and concept "Plan B" itself is a bane to the administration.

It was an administration-wide failure too. Cheney was fishing in Wyoming, and Rice was shoe-shopping and Spamalot-ing in NYC. I think the limo driver was in charge at the White House.

Psh, what the hell are you on, We would've had some effective leadership for once if the limo driver was in charge.

Well, to me this article is good news.
It confirms we had a plan A, at least.
I was getting worried for a while there.

"Do you mind if I ask you what you do for a living?" -US soldier, checkpoint in Baghdad. Presumably translated.

"Do you mind if I ask you what you do for a living?" -US soldier, checkpoint in Baghdad. Presumably translated.
Maybe I'm just sleep-deprived, but is that supposed to be a joke? :confused:

Maybe I'm just sleep-deprived, but is that supposed to be a joke? :confused:

I'm not sure. I saw it on the teevee, so it might not be real.
It might be quoted out of context.
NBC Newshour 05 March 2007.

I found it offensive. You may find it funny.

EDIT: BTW, does anyone object to calling citizens of the USA "Statesiders?" It's sort of old-fashioned, but it seems less awkward than "USians" and more accurate than "Americans." There's no way I'm referring to such as "citizens of the USA" -- it's long, and as a phrase rather than a word it's difficult to use in sentences or quotes; plus not everyone who lives there is a citizen, so it's not accurate either.

I know we all like to joke about Bush and his room temperature IQ, but I didn't think that Bush and all his advisers and what not could really be so ridiculously stupid as to think that they don't need a Plan B for Iraq.

You should see the editorial section of the newspaper. Conservatives are fucking stupid.

They think there is only victory, in an undefined war no less, and if we do anything but support all out victory we are "demoralizing our troops," "supporting terrorists," and "not supporting our president in a time of 'war'."

It's unilateral victory in an undefined war against an undefined force or bust.

So the US has a contingency plan for a war with Canada, but not one for a failure in Iraq?

So the US has a contingency plan for a war with Canada, but not one for a failure in Iraq?

Hey there's smart thinking.

Hey there's smart thinking.

One's closer.
:rolleyes:

I know we all like to joke about Bush and his room temperature IQ, but I didn't think that Bush and all his advisers and what not could really be so ridiculously stupid as to think that they don't need a Plan B for Iraq.

I often wonder if they had a Plan A, and here's what I mean by that. Pre 9/11, Dubya and the Neo-cons were toast. They were completely and utterly done politically. Dubya was going down as less competent than his dad by any measure, and without 9/11, might have gotten a primary challenge from McCain. When they started saying "9/11 changed everything," they were right--they learned that continuous war was the key to them staying in power. What they counted on was that military victory would be swift in Iraq, and then they could move on to the next target--Syria, Iran, didn't really matter. Just as long as there was a war, complete with glorious explosions and Playstation effects and talking heads on tv keeping the dissenters cowed by calling them unAmerican.

And it nearly worked. It worked up until 2006, when the shit started smelling so bad that only the hardy few could still stomach the smell.

EDIT: BTW, does anyone object to calling citizens of the USA "Statesiders?" It's sort of old-fashioned, but it seems less awkward than "USians" and more accurate than "Americans." There's no way I'm referring to such as "citizens of the USA" -- it's long, and as a phrase rather than a word it's difficult to use in sentences or quotes; plus not everyone who lives there is a citizen, so it's not accurate either.

Let me put it this way (at least IMO)

Americans
-
-
-
-
Statesiders
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Citizens of the USA
USians

Staggered terms in different houses, differing lengths of term, regulating factors like the High Court (Supreme Court to Statesiders), and our respective Constitutions all help to reduce the quite serious risk of democracy going chaotic. (I thought the word for "over-reacting, then over-reacting to that, until the whole thing hits some kind of limit and crashes" was "hysteresis." Wikipedia doesn't bear that out, though. "Fishtailing" perhaps?)

This might offend some Statesiders, since I don't really know much about it, but it seems to me that ever since Nixon, every President has been homely and simplistic, they talk dumb even if they aren't.

Ford (not elected, I know). Just plain dumb.
Carter. Peanuts, Suez canal, end the cold war, back to peanuts. Slipped it in there.
Reagan. Funny and likeable. Turned dumb when the going got tough.
Bush I. Substituted conviction for persuasion. Unexplained pauses between words.
Clinton. A bit smart. Way, way too smart in the pants dept. Luckily that was none of our business.
Bush II. Clinton was a close call. This time we want a real idiot. Dubya's the man!
The Ficus. It's so dumb, you need to water it to keep it from dying. Ficus is our President! 12 more years!


Makes sense. That just about after the time when TV's were becoming very popular, and before that, you could get away with not being friendly or all that likeable(Body language has a lot to do with this, as well as sound of the the voice, but body language is very important). Before this, all people ever really knew about presidents is what they had said(Either newspaper or radio), or how they looked(Which was often "dolled" up). The Nixon vs. Kennedy election, for instance, was likely influenced greatly by this, leading to Nixon's defeat in the 60's.

With GWB, the finest mind of his generation, at the helm how could we possibly fail?

He's out already.

No, the next president will be stuck with the mess. And get blamed for it, mark ye!

One's closer.
:rolleyes:

Hey, there's even smarter thinking.

Hey, there's even smarter thinking.

Maybe it was an idea of the infantry - we figured the mounties weren't too much of a threat or something.

You know, there's some good oil sands up there just a-ripe for the pickin' ...

Or ... maybe we were afraid of Castro taking Canada at some point, and he'd give it to us from both ends?