NationStates Jolt Archive

That's right, President Chen Shui-bian of Taiwan/Republic of China has decided to piss of his big ass motherfucker neighbour in such a way that absolutely nobody (i.e. the USA) won't give it any support.

China has hit out at Taiwan's President Chen Shui-bian after he made a strongly pro-independence speech on Sunday.
Mr Chen said Taiwan should pursue independence, write a new constitution and change its official name from "Republic of China" to Taiwan.

...

Mr Chen, in a speech to a pro-independence group on Sunday, said: "Taiwan should be independent".

"Taiwan is a country whose sovereignty lies outside the People's Republic of China," he added, referring to China by its formal name.

He spoke of a "four wants" policy - namely independence, a new constitution, further development and a change to the country's officially designated name.

...

Opposition leaders accused him of being irresponsible and putting Taiwan at risk of a possible war with China.

China sees Taiwan as part of its territory and has threatened to use force if the island ever moved to declare formal independence.

The United States is committed to supplying Taiwan with defensive weapons, but opposes any Taiwanese provocation of China.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/6418561.stm

I mean really, if you are going to piss of over one billion people, you really should make sure that the USA (or your own people, for that matter) is going to back you up first. Otherwise, Taiwan gets shredded in a pancake.

Of course, I can understand why Taiwan would want to be independent from China (they don't want their organs harvested) but this seems really, really unnecessarily stupid.

Any thoughts?

That's right, President Chen Shui-bian of Taiwan/Republic of China has decided to piss of his big ass motherfucker neighbour in such a way that absolutely nobody (i.e. the USA) won't give it any support.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/6418561.stm

I mean really, if you are going to piss of over one billion people, you really should make sure that the USA (or your own people, for that matter) is going to back you up first. Otherwise, Taiwan gets shredded in a pancake.

Of course, I can understand why Taiwan would want to be independent from China (they don't want their organs harvested) but this seems really, really unnecessarily stupid.

Any thoughts?

Good for them! I'm convinced that the day that the PRC gets really angry at Taiwan and attempts to invade or attack or something along those lines is the day that World War III begins. The USA can't let Taiwan go under; no matter how annoyed they get with the Taiwanese I'm certain they won't abandon them.
I'm just going to sit back and watch the fireworks. Once the USA and the PRC have pounded one another to dust there's always the possiblity that they won't have used nuclear weapons and then the UK will be dominant (I wish); if they use nukes, of course, we're all dead.
War? If it has to happen, let it happen soon and have it done with!

Ilaer

tiwon schmiwon. there's an island underneath 'taiwan'. it used to be called formosa. there were people already living there. they were called formosans. they still are.

i aggree "taiwon" souldn't be called or have anything to do with PRC or any other incarnation of china. it "should" be called and given back to the indiginous FORMOSANS the right wing loonies fleeing the pseudo-left wing loonies ripped it off from in the first place.

if you want to talk about should.

as for reality. PRC china is kind of big. kind of gonna park it's but pretty much where it feels like. just like the us. and a couple of centuries ago most of the now relatively tame little countries in europe used to have a tendency of doing.

yah korea "should" be one country and not part of china. as should tibet.

as should hawaii and puertorico not be part of the u.s. and should the island of png be one coutry, not beholdin to anyone else, as should hati/d.r., as should cyprus, and maybe even crete.

and the list goes on and on. alaska "should' be part of canada or a new nation carved out of america's pacific northwest and canadas pacific coastal provences of yukon and b.c.

and those are just the ones i can think of off the top of my head.
and that's not mentioning the mess history has made of africa and the middle east.

=^^=
.../\...

tiwon schmiwon. there's an island underneath 'taiwan'. it used to be called formosa. there were people already living there. they were called formosans. they still are.


No...sorry...Formosa was a name given by the Portuguese. The vast majority of the population is of Chinese descent and that has been the case for several hundred years.

I don't see why Taiwan shouldn't be independent if they want to.

No...sorry...Formosa was a name given by the Portuguese. The vast majority of the population is of Chinese descent and that has been the case for several hundred years.

i can't dispute the origen of the "f" name, because i don't have data to back either of us up either way. i suppose formosa COULD be a potugese name. they were over there screwing everybody before most of the rest of europe and elsewhere, but as for being of chinese descent for several hundred years, that part i kind of seriously doubt, unless in the sense of the indigious formosians being perhapse somehow related to other indiginous cultures on what is now mainland china before china was one united place. which, if i'm not mistaken, hasn't always been the case for a number of centuries, if not millinea either.

at any rate, america's bit of calling taiwan "china" throughout most of the 50's,60's,and 70's, just because it had a paranoid hard on against anything even remotely identified with marxism, was pretty damd off the wall.

and THERE WERE people already living there, whatever their origen, who did not invite themselves to be taken over by anyone.

=^^=
.../\...

The Republic of China (Taiwan) is a state is at the Zenith of it's relative power to the People's Republic of China (Mainland). It currently maintains a sufficient Navy and Air Force to hold the island against PRC troop movements, and maintains close (albeit non-official) ties with the United States. Furthermore, the PRC has benefited from large quantities of ROC capital investment.

Furthermore, while Taiwan does have a large minority of ethnic Chinese, the majority of the people are indigenous Taiwanese, a group whom Chen Shui-Bian has been elected to represent. They have long favored increased levels of independence from the Mainland of China, or any other imperial power.

Who the hell cares? Do you want to give Tasmania back to the Tasmanians (who aren't around, but meh)? Or England back to the Picts? Or the Sudetenland back to the Germans (since they used to live there at one point)?

This type of "hey-my-people-owned-this-land-at-some-point-or-another" stuff is ridiculous really.

Who the hell cares? Do you want to give Tasmania back to the Tasmanians (who aren't around, but meh)? Or England back to the Picts? Or the Sudetenland back to the Germans (since they used to live there at one point)?

This type of "hey-my-people-owned-this-land-at-some-point-or-another" stuff is ridiculous really.

Except, in this instance, indigenous Taiwanese make up a majority of the population of the Island, and routinely elect governments friendly to their pro-independence leanings.

tiwon schmiwon. there's an island underneath 'taiwan'. it used to be called formosa. there were people already living there. they were called formosans. they still are.

i aggree "taiwon" souldn't be called or have anything to do with PRC or any other incarnation of china. it "should" be called and given back to the indiginous FORMOSANS the right wing loonies fleeing the pseudo-left wing loonies ripped it off from in the first place.

if you want to talk about should.

as for reality. PRC china is kind of big. kind of gonna park it's but pretty much where it feels like. just like the us. and a couple of centuries ago most of the now relatively tame little countries in europe used to have a tendency of doing.

yah korea "should" be one country and not part of china. as should tibet.

as should hawaii and puertorico not be part of the u.s. and should the island of png be one coutry, not beholdin to anyone else, as should hati/d.r., as should cyprus, and maybe even crete.

and the list goes on and on. alaska "should' be part of canada or a new nation carved out of america's pacific northwest and canadas pacific coastal provences of yukon and b.c.

and those are just the ones i can think of off the top of my head.
and that's not mentioning the mess history has made of africa and the middle east.

=^^=
.../\...

Some of your inaccuracies have already been pointed out; for the record, neither of the Korean states are part of the PRC. North Korea has traditionally had fairly goof relations with the Chinese but after the nuclear debacle is not so much in their good books anymore, and South Korea is most emphatically nothing to do with China.
Although Tibet was unfairly invaded by China; that you have right. I wish Tibet were independent again...

Ilaer

i can't dispute the origen of the "f" name, because i don't have data to back either of us up either way. i suppose formosa COULD be a potugese name.

http://www.princeton.edu/~tasa/taiwan.htm

Ilha Formosa..

but as for being of chinese descent for several hundred years, that part i kind of seriously doubt, unless in the sense of the indigious formosians being perhapse somehow related to other indiginous cultures on what is now mainland china before china was one united place.
The Qing annexed taiwan in the late 17th century. I'll admit I was untoward, I don't have any idea of the ethnic makeup of the population back then, but the history of Chinese rule dates back until then.


and THERE WERE people already living there, whatever their origen, who did not invite themselves to be taken over by anyone.

=^^=
.../\...

Yes, well, unfortunate as it may be, that applies to pretty much every nationstate in existence today.

The way it is now, most Taiwanese are of Han Chinese ancestry.

[
Yes, well, unfortunate as it may be, that applies to pretty much every nationstate in existence today.


well yes, that IS one of several reasons "pretty much every nationstate in existence today" is pretty thoroughly "buggered"!

=^^=
.../\...

I should clarify my statement earlier. A majority of the population of Taiwan is pre-Kuomintang Han, and I have classified them differently from what most others would do.

Except, in this instance, indigenous Taiwanese make up a majority of the population of the Island, and routinely elect governments friendly to their pro-independence leanings.

IGNORE THE TINY DETAILS!

Seriously, here's the point:

Why should China own Taiwan if Taiwan's people don't want it to?

I don't think Taiwan has much choice in the matter they have to keep quite or the world goes down the toilet a very precarious situation really

Also I for one do not wish to risk the world for 23,036,087 peoples right to self rule especially if defending them would involve vaporising them

Why should China own Taiwan if Taiwan's people don't want it to?

cus they have more guns

IGNORE THE TINY DETAILS!

Seriously, here's the point:

Why should China own Taiwan if Taiwan's people don't want it to?

I honestly doubt that the PRC will ever make an aggressive move towards Taiwan, as, it currently provides the PRC government with an awfully convenient foreign threat, in the classical mold. If they can keep railing about the "Bandit Island", the people of mainland China will remain fearful, and obedient to the authoritarian central government.

I personally want Taiwan to have de jure independence, in a strictly normative sense.

cus they have more guns

Actually, they have more rifles and missiles, less or lower quality ships and airplanes.

Actually, they have more rifles and missiles, less or lower quality ships and airplanes.

and the missiles tend to tip the scales on this one well that and the ability to cripple the world economy

yah korea "should" be one country and not part of china. as should tibet.
wtf?
news to me. And several million Koreans.

How dare Taiwan - a country with it's own (admittedly corrupt, but far less corrupt than the PRC) government, laws, and customs declare that it wishes to be viewed as independent of a country it has little in common with, save language.

Next we'll no doubt have ppl saying the US shouldn't have declared independence from England.

That's right, President Chen Shui-bian of Taiwan/Republic of China has decided to piss of his big ass motherfucker neighbour in such a way that absolutely nobody (i.e. the USA) won't give it any support.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/6418561.stm

I mean really, if you are going to piss of over one billion people, you really should make sure that the USA (or your own people, for that matter) is going to back you up first. Otherwise, Taiwan gets shredded in a pancake.

Of course, I can understand why Taiwan would want to be independent from China (they don't want their organs harvested) but this seems really, really unnecessarily stupid.

Any thoughts?

You realize that we are obligated to come to Taiwan's aide if China attacks them right? Even Japan has too as well thanks to an agreemnt signed between the US and Japan.

Good for them! I'm convinced that the day that the PRC gets really angry at Taiwan and attempts to invade or attack or something along those lines is the day that World War III begins. The USA can't let Taiwan go under; no matter how annoyed they get with the Taiwanese I'm certain they won't abandon them.
I'm just going to sit back and watch the fireworks. Once the USA and the PRC have pounded one another to dust there's always the possiblity that they won't have used nuclear weapons and then the UK will be dominant (I wish); if they use nukes, of course, we're all dead.
War? If it has to happen, let it happen soon and have it done with!

Ilaer



Why exactly can we not let Taiwan go under? Who cares?

Why exactly can we not let Taiwan go under? Who cares?

Why exactly can we not let the Palestinians go under? Who cares?

Who remembers the Armenians? Ha ha ha ha! - Adolph Hitler

Why exactly can we not let Taiwan go under? Who cares?
You really think China would stop at Taiwan once they see the West (US especially) fold up and scurry home?

You really think China would stop at Taiwan once they see the West (US especially) fold up and scurry home?

You think that the US is going to let China walk over Taiwan?

You think that the US is going to let China walk over Taiwan?
Not me, the poster I was addressing.

You think that the US is going to let China walk over Taiwan?
If Taiwan unilaterally declares independence from China, then yes.

If Taiwan unilaterally declares independence from China, then yes.
Let's face it: There's not a lot the US could do right now, short of nukes - and even Bush, inc aren't that stupid.
Faced the two options of a long drawn-out and bloody war in Taiwan that could ultimately sink the US economy, along with China fucking with the US economy or letting China in, making vague threats and then getting on with life I reckon they'd go for the latter.

Let's face it: There's not a lot the US could do right now, short of nukes - and even Bush, inc aren't that stupid.
Faced the two options of a long drawn-out and bloody war in Taiwan that could ultimately sink the US economy, along with China fucking with the US economy or letting China in, making vague threats and then getting on with life I reckon they'd go for the latter.

Note the recent stock problems.

Which began in China.

If anyone so much as breathes hard on China's economy, the whole world economy will go into the toilet.

If there's any kind of worldwide conflict, it will be even worse.

Let's face it: There's not a lot the US could do right now, short of nukes - and even Bush, inc aren't that stupid.
Faced the two options of a long drawn-out and bloody war in Taiwan that could ultimately sink the US economy, along with China fucking with the US economy or letting China in, making vague threats and then getting on with life I reckon they'd go for the latter.
Almost undoubtedly.

If Taiwan unilaterally declares independence from China, then yes.

*dies of laughter*

Note the recent stock problems.

Which began in China.

If anyone so much as breathes hard on China's economy, the whole world economy will go into the toilet.

If there's any kind of worldwide conflict, it will be even worse.

Indeed.

*dies of laughter*
US policy is against unilateral Taiwanese independence as well as Chinese belligerence.
"In his welcome speech on the White House's South Lawn, President Bush reiterated the US commitment to peace across the Taiwan Strait. [B]the US would uphold its `one China' policy based on the three Sino-US communiques and the Taiwan Relations Act, remained opposed to any side unilaterally changing the status quo, and that Taiwan's future must be resolved peacefully," the Foreign Ministry said in a statement.
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2006/04/22/2003303964

And even the State department:
Mr. Chairman, the United States has a vital interest in the peaceful resolution of differences across the Taiwan Strait. The President told Premier Wen Jiabao on December 9, 2003 that we do not support Taiwan independence and we oppose unilateral attempts by either China or Taiwan to alter the cross-Strait status quo. That set of commitments is anchored in the Taiwan Relations Act and our three Joint Communiques, which remain the bedrock of our policy.
http://www.state.gov/p/eap/rls/rm/2005/53266.htm

US policy is against unilateral Taiwanese independence as well as Chinese belligerence.

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2006/04/22/2003303964

And even the State department:

http://www.state.gov/p/eap/rls/rm/2005/53266.htm

You do realize that it is what we love to call it politics.

You do realize that it is what we love to call it politics.
That it may be, but it is still policy.

Why exactly can we not let Taiwan go under? Who cares?

The USA as a whole cares. The nation has spent a considerable amount on supporting Taiwan's development and military; I do believe that it also has permanent forces at the ready to defend Taiwan if need be.
Taiwan is a valuable ally to the Americans in face of the opposing political ideologies that are inherent in China and the USA's structures. It's a bit like the Cold War in a way.

Ilaer

That is what we are stating publicly. You are right that is what we are saying publicly however, if China attacks Taiwan, we are obligated, by treaty, to defend Taiwan. Japan is the same way.

You are quite correct.

Ilaer

That it may be, but it is still policy.

Evidently not enough to stop us from selling weapons to Taiwan, and not China.

That it may be, but it is still policy.

That is what we are stating publicly. You are right that is what we are saying publicly however, if China attacks Taiwan, we are obligated, by treaty, to defend Taiwan. Japan is the same way.

Evidently not enough to stop us from selling weapons to Taiwan, and not China.

Yep. why would we sell them wepons if we did not support them?

Yep. why would we sell them wepons if we did not support them?

We sold weapons to lots of mid-east countries right before we considered them a threat.

Why exactly can we not let Taiwan go under? Who cares?

They're in a supremely strategic spot, a position from which we could dominate vast swaths of the coastline of mainland China, and when taken in context with Japan, the ROK, the Philipines and Guam, you can see an effective Air-Sea containment ring that could be placed around the PRC in the Pacific.

We sold weapons to lots of mid-east countries right before we considered them a threat.

And when we did, we stopped theoreticly.

We do support Taiwan in an UNofficial capacity though I still think we should recognize Taiwan as a free country as a couple dozen nations have done.

You are quite correct.

Ilaer

*bows head humbly*

You really think China would stop at Taiwan once they see the West (US especially) fold up and scurry home?

China would never go to war with us, we're too big a market. Wake up and smell the capitalism.

China would never go to war with us, we're too big a market. Wake up and smell the capitalism.

I mentioned that before in the thread, but it was ignored.

Note the recent market crash, initiated in China.

No one can afford a global war now.