NationStates Jolt Archive

Estonians vote Sunday in a parliamentary election, casting paper ballots in polling stations around the Baltic state which earlier this week held the world's first online national election.

More than 30,000 Estonians, or around three percent of the 940,000 eligible voters, cast ballots from a home or office computer during three days of advance voting earlier this week.

[...]

The e-vote underscores Estonia's reputation as a technological ground-breaker.

In the small Baltic country, car parking can be paid for using a mobile phone, almost everyone has an electronic ID card, which can double up as a public transportation ticket.

It was a small Estonian company that developed the free Internet telecommunications software Skype, which has now been bought by eBay.

[...]

"To our knowledge, no other country has a nationwide electronic ID card system like ours, with digital certificates, which enables remote identification of a person," she said.


(Source (http://www.france24.com/france24Public/en/news/europe/20070403-Estonia-first-online-elections.html))

Thoughts?

Call me a grumpy old traditionalist with an irrational wariness of electronics (I don't trust digital cameras), but I prefer to cast my ballot the old-fashioned way.

Except that, for this year's presidential election, that's not going to be possible. They're introducing some sort of voting machines. Damn them.

The one positive side is that it cuts down on wasted paper...

Yeah, seems like the potential for tampering is high.

Yeah, seems like the potential for tampering is high.

If done can be held to an amazingly high level of security, but that would mean clamping down on the standards very specifically, but it could be done

Yeah, seems like the potential for tampering is high.The potential for tampering is high in paper ballot elections as well. In the UK all three major political parties have been found to engaged in electoral fraud either regarding proxy voting or postal voting.

Labour candidates - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/4406575.stm
Conservative candidate - http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/election2005/article1079633.ece
Liberal Democrat candidates - http://www.parliament.uk/commons/lib/research/notes/snpc-03667.pdf

Eh, corruption can happen no matter the medium. If anything, Estonia's use of it will hopefully work out the problems in the technology and make it a viable replacement for traditional paper balloting; of course, there's always going to be a risk of problems, but if we use trials like this to get the technology up and working, we will be able to benefit from electric ballots with a risk no greater than other forms of balloting.

Eh, corruption can happen no matter the medium. If anything, Estonia's use of it will hopefully work out the problems in the technology and make it a viable replacement for traditional paper balloting; of course, there's always going to be a risk of problems, but if we use trials like this to get the technology up and working, we will be able to benefit from electric ballots with a risk no greater than other forms of balloting.

I would say we could even REDUCE the risks if done right, things like full CRC/MD5 checks on every ballot cast and stored on a separate medium which then can be compared against the originals if called into question, your chases of finding a voting pattern would be in the hundreds of trilians just to pass one of them much less a combination of two of the sums

Soviet Jailbait

I would say we could even REDUCE the risks if done right, things like full CRC/MD5 checks on every ballot cast and stored on a separate medium which then can be compared against the originals if called into question, your chases of finding a voting pattern would be in the hundreds of trilians just to pass one of them much less a combination of two of the sums

And if Upward Thrust could tell you that then they're SURE to be safe.

And if Upward Thrust could tell you that then they're SURE to be safe.

I do have a masters in Computer Information security ... (serious)

I do have a masters in Computer Information security ... (serious)

I'm sorry: I wasn't trying to belittle you. I was merely trying to say that they would be sure to hire people as informed and possibly more informed than even you are to safeguard this system, that's all.

I'm sorry: I wasn't trying to belittle you. I was merely trying to say that they would be sure to hire people as informed and possibly more informed than even you are to safeguard this system, that's all.

I know sorry should have added a smily I got your humor :)

And I am sure they do have people around the problem in the end comes down to expense, and ease of use

as a general rule security is ALWAYS fighting with usability and efficiency

The trick is to find a level or type of security that allows for the minimum requirements for usability/efficiency ... not an easy task

I could make the damn things frigging secure, but the devices or the processes may be too expensive or inefficient to warrant a change (whether that be in human man hours moving transporting data or doing checks) or computer time or user time and ease of use

I'm a little skeptical of the whole Internet voting thing. Not only is there the high risk of tampering, I find it kinda funny that a voter could vote one second, and then finish masturbating to scat videos the next.

We'd have to even the two methods out. If we allow e-voting, then we should also make lap dances available at every traditional voting station.

(Perhaps I should run for office?)

Hmm, looks like our beloved little brothers took our project and speeded it up. Not surprising, considering the hectic way they're progressing after decades of Soviet oppression.

I wish them well.

Joona

How big is Estonia? Couldn't they just use tally marks?

Well I suppose it would help voter turnout

Of course now comes the question of do you trust Microsoft with your vote

Of course now comes the question of do you trust Microsoft with your vote

And since when does Microsoft own the internet?

<snip> ...if we use trials like this to get the technology up and working, we will be able to benefit from electric ballots with a risk no greater than other forms of balloting.

Yeah, if it's been tested on Estonia and it works, maybe a real country can follow suit.

Yeah, if it's been tested on Estonia and it works, maybe a real country can follow suit.

:eek: Estonia is NOT a real country???? :confused:

I suspect it's a lot safer than paper votes, although it will be interesting to see when you'll first be able to download a program allowing you to vote in the election of your choice, anywhere in the world.

:eek: Estonia is NOT a real country???? :confused:

Ah, it seems yet again I am having to explain my sense of humour.
If you look at the quote on my previous post, I am responding to another poster who described the Estonian election as a 'test'. I am merely enlarging upon the cultural arrogance implicit in such a statement.
Actually, it wasn't funny at all because the two statements are in no way equivalent, there is a sense in which it is a test. I should delete it really...
... but it's such a hassle...
...nah, can't be arsed.

I'm a bit suspicious to be honest - I just don't like the potential for abuse, either by governments or others interested in 'influencing' elections, just as I don't like mass postal voting either. If all three parties can fiddle with that, as they have, I see no reason why they wouldn't do so online.

Perhaps better politicians and abolishing the 2.5 party dictatorship would do more to get people put to the polling station.

Yeah, seems like the potential for tampering is high.

Tampering? Think what this does to anonymity.

Yeah, if it's been tested on Estonia and it works, maybe a real country can follow suit.

Anyone who wants to mess with our brothers has to mess with us.

:mp5:

Joona

Estonia has interweb tubes?:eek:

Well, at least recounts will be faster that way in Florida.

(Source (http://www.france24.com/france24Public/en/news/europe/20070403-Estonia-first-online-elections.html))

Thoughts?

Call me a grumpy old traditionalist with an irrational wariness of electronics (I don't trust digital cameras), but I prefer to cast my ballot the old-fashioned way.

Except that, for this year's presidential election, that's not going to be possible. They're introducing some sort of voting machines. Damn them.

The one positive side is that it cuts down on wasted paper...

Luddite.

Call me a grumpy old traditionalist with an irrational wariness of electronics (I don't trust digital cameras), but...

You're a grumpy old traditionalist with an irrational wariness of electronics. :p

Somebody had to do it. ;)

Luddite.

Now, that's not entirely fair... I don't intend to smash the voting machines. :p

To be honest, I'd prefer a paper trail.

To be honest, I'd prefer a paper trail.

People always say that but an electronic trail can be a tone more secure

People always say that but an electronic trail can be a tone more secure

Oh I don't doubt that, I just wonder whether it will be.

Oh I don't doubt that, I just wonder whether it will be.

True but you could say that about a faulty implementation of paper balloting we have had PLENTY of failures in that sector in the past...

In the end electronic voting in general has the better potential, though it will take some time and standardizing to get that done

Ah, it seems yet again I am having to explain my sense of humour.
If you look at the quote on my previous post, I am responding to another poster who described the Estonian election as a 'test'. I am merely enlarging upon the cultural arrogance implicit in such a statement.
Actually, it wasn't funny at all because the two statements are in no way equivalent, there is a sense in which it is a test. I should delete it really...
... but it's such a hassle...
...nah, can't be arsed.

Sorry... I am known to be exceptionally thick.

Shame we didn't know about it before so we could put up a Nation States candidate and then fiddle the voting to get them elected.

Tampering? Think what this does to anonymity.Pardon, why would electronic voting be any less anonymous than paper voting?

edit: estonia seems to be heavily reliant on an ID card scheme... makes me shudder. 'Sorry, we can't find you on the database, therefore you must be (a) lying about your identity, or (b) you don't actually exist.