NationStates Jolt Archive

LOLZ OMGZ THOSE DAMN RETARDED FRENCHIES. :mp5:

Hahaha :D

And at Kanabia, too :D

Ok, police chase two youths (and no, their religion isn't even relevant), and the two youths make the fatal mistake of hiding inside of a transformer.

Both are electrocuted, and die. In a side note, thousands of people riot in "protest" of police behavior (gee, I didn't know that police were not supposed to chase potential suspects).

Now, the French have turned the spot where the two teens died into a public monument.

WTF?

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t48/eveonline_bucket/wreath.jpg

Hey! Look at the warning signs all over that thing!

the Frog are nuts

I can just imagine that they put the monument inside the transformer.
Cue hilarity when people try to place flowers.

Right. We should never ever complain about police acting recklessly, after all everything the police does is legal and right by definition.
So the fact that the two policemen in question neglected not only their official responsibilities but also their civic duties which resulted in the death of two innocent citizens should be blamed on the dead youths instead. And let's give the policemen a medal while we're at it.

Right. We should never ever complain about police acting recklessly, after all everything the police does is legal and right by definition.
So the fact that the two policemen in question neglected not only their official responsibilities but also their civic duties which resulted in the death of two innocent citizens should be blamed on the dead youths instead. And let's give the policemen a medal while we're at it.

Whoa.

Uh...are you insinuating that the police forced those two into the transformer? If you are, please show me where that's true. Jumping immediately to EITHER side of a police-related issue always says more about the jumper than the police.

Right. We should never ever complain about police acting recklessly, after all everything the police does is legal and right by definition.
So the fact that the two policemen in question neglected not only their official responsibilities but also their civic duties which resulted in the death of two innocent citizens should be blamed on the dead youths instead. And let's give the policemen a medal while we're at it.

What was reckless about chasing suspects?

And speaking of reckless, if you're going to run from the police, why would you run into the internal mechanism of a transformer?

Whoa.

Uh...are you insinuating that the police forced those two into the transformer? If you are, please show me where that's true. Jumping immediately to EITHER side of a police-related issue always says more about the jumper than the police.

I'm implying no such thing. I'm pointing out the fact that the two policemen in question noticed the two youths in the transformer, and went away without trying to get them out or notifying the electricity company, thus leaving the two in mortal danger.
Even set asside the fact that as policemen, they are required to protect citizens, it would have been their civic duty as French citizens to at least make the phone call to warn the electricity company about the situation. As far as I know, the two policemen are facing charges because of this negligence at the moment.

So not only were they not doing their job, they were actively breaking French law.

What was reckless about chasing suspects?

And speaking of reckless, if you're going to run from the police, why would you run into the internal mechanism of a transformer?

I'm not saying that the two youths were shining examples of foresight and intelligence. But I think you should read up about what happened that day before coming here sounding as uninformed as you do right now.

Now, the French have turned the spot where the two teens died into a public monument.
Do you have (read) an article about that?

I'm implying no such thing. I'm pointing out the fact that the two policemen in question noticed the two youths in the transformer, and went away without trying to get them out or notifying the electricity company, thus leaving the two in mortal danger.
Even set asside the fact that as policemen, they are required to protect citizens, it would have been their civic duty as French citizens to at least make the phone call to warn the electricity company about the situation. As far as I know, the two policemen are facing charges because of this negligence at the moment.

So not only were they not doing their job, they were actively breaking French law.

Well, here in the US, if the police notice you in a transformer, sure, they're going to get you out of it.

But their primary motivation will be to arrest you, which they will do, and add the additional charge of entering the transformer illegally (it's illegal here in the US).

Well, here in the US, if the police notice you in a transformer, sure, they're going to get you out of it.

But their primary motivation will be to arrest you, which they will do, and add the additional charge of entering the transformer illegally (it's illegal here in the US).

It's illegal in France, too, I'm sure.
The fact is that the police didn't seem to be chasing the youths, or at least that's how they trying to make it out in the investigations. They did notice them running, and assumed that the two thought they were being chased.
Once they entered the transformer, the police went on their way, leaving the two in mortal danger. A thing they are not allowed to do as regular citizens, let alone as police officers.

What was reckless about chasing suspects?


:rolleyes:

Considering they ended up dead, I'd've thought you'd know better DK.

Whats a transformer? Some sort of electricy? A power plant?

Whats a transformer? Some sort of electricy? A power plant?

It transforms high-voltage electricity into electricity with houshold-level voltage.
In Europe, those transformers are usually stored in small buldings with a lot of warning signs around them, as the voltage within can reach lethal levels when the transformer is working.

Apparently, the two youths got into the building while the transformed was inactive. It was activated about 15 mins after they entered, while they were still hiding inside.

Whats a transformer? Some sort of electricy? A power plant?

It's a device that steps down voltage from the main transmission lines to the places that actually use the electricity (like buildings).

Whats a transformer? Some sort of electricy? A power plant?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq1_6D9QS9Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-aTbHsZJ9g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-ItfWY3xMQ

*nods*

The whole understanding of this inncident hinges on what you believe the police's responsibilities to be. In the US it seems to me that the primary responsibility of the police is to aprehend suspected criminals. Whereas in Europe the primary responsibility is towards public safety. Thus, in the US police will engage in high speed car chases and ram the suspects car in an attempt to bring the car to a halt. This is opposed to the European police who will tail the suspect so long as they are not endangering the lives of the public. At which point the police will keep a helicopter on the suspects car and cease tailing with police cars so the suspect no longer believes they are being chased and so will drive more safely.

ie.
US police - more aggresive
European police - more defensive

Link? I can't find anything in the news about any alleged "monument" supposedly erected by "the French". (By which you mean... what, anyway? National authorities? Local authorities? A group of private citizens? Surprise, surprise, "the French" are not a homogenous entity.)

As for what happened, as I've explained elsewhere, the police officers involved broke the law by not attempting to have the power cut off from the transformer. It's called "non-assistance à personne en danger."

Also, contrary to the lies spread by some foreign media, the two young men in question had done nothing wrong. They were not guilty of anything. They were not suspect. Nada.

I grow tired of the lies, rubbish and distortion spewed out by some ignorant people on this forum.

They're more than meets the eye. :)

You were too slow on that one. :P

Whats a transformer? Some sort of electricy? A power plant?

They're more than meets the eye. :)

Link? I can't find anything in the news about any alleged "monument" supposedly erected by "the French". (By which you mean... what, anyway? National authorities? Local authorities? A group of private citizens? Surprise, surprise, "the French" are not a homogenous entity.)

As for what happened, as I've explained elsewhere, the police officers involved broke the law by not attempting to have the power cut off from the transformer. It's called "non-assistance à personne en danger."

Also, contrary to the lies spread by some foreign media, the two young men in question had done nothing wrong. They were not guilty of anything. They were not suspect. Nada.

I grow tired of the lies, rubbish and distortion spewed out by some ignorant people on this forum.

I tried to correct some of the incorrect assumptions, but I'm not really sure people bothered to read my explanations. They mostly seem to be happy to just rely on Fox-style news headlines and prejudices...

I grow tired of the lies, rubbish and distortion spewed out by some ignorant people on this forum.

Calm down. It's not lying if you're misinformed. It's merely a mistaken interpretation based on incorrect facts. I too thought the police were chasing them because they were suspects and that the teenagers were simply foolish enough to remain in the transformer. I also thought the transformer activated very soon after they went in so the police could not warn the power company in time. As I can see now, that is incorrect, and the police are thus responsible for the deaths of those teenagers.

And Eve is not Deep Kimchi, everyone. I believe him now when he claims he's not. I suspect we'd have seen the mods refer to him as Deep Kimchi by now if he were anyway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq1_6D9QS9Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-aTbHsZJ9g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-ItfWY3xMQ

*nods*

I love you. :)

You were too slow on that one. :P

:(

*Snip*
Yeah, uh, linky?

Oh, go ahead and believe that the kids were beaten to death by police.

Where does it say that? :confused:

Calm down. It's not lying if you're misinformed. It's merely a mistaken interpretation based on incorrect facts. I too thought the police were chasing them because they were suspects and that the teenagers were simply foolish enough to remain in the transformer. I also thought the transformer activated very soon after they went in so the police could not warn the power company in time. As I can see now, that is incorrect, and the police are thus responsible for the deaths of those teenagers.


Thank you. It's reassuring to see that some people do take facts and reality into account.

To be specific, the police officers were at least partly responsible for their deaths. It remains uncertain whether cutting the electricity off would have saved them, but they did indeed have sufficient time to warn the power company. And the law clearly states that they had a duty to do so. (Not just as police officers; that law applies to everyone.)

Yeah, uh, linky?

Oh, go ahead and believe that the kids were beaten to death by police.

Oh, go ahead and believe that the kids were beaten to death by police.

Hyperbole, much?

I love the first post of this thread. Thank you, Kanabia :)

Ok, police chase two youths (and no, their religion isn't even relevant), and the two youths make the fatal mistake of hiding inside of a transformer.

Both are electrocuted, and die. In a side note, thousands of people riot in "protest" of police behavior (gee, I didn't know that police were not supposed to chase potential suspects).

Now, the French have turned the spot where the two teens died into a public monument.

WTF?

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t48/eveonline_bucket/wreath.jpg

Hey! Look at the warning signs all over that thing!

Amazing. Even on debate boards some Amerikans miss the point and hit the wrong thing entirely........

I love the first post of this thread. Thank you, Kanabia :)

Actually, i'm quite ashamed that my name has been listed as the apparent "creator" of such an inane thread. Sad.

Hyperbole, much?

He evidently doesn't think the kids went into the transformer willingly.

Actually, i'm quite ashamed that my name has been listed as the apparent "creator" of such an inane thread. Sad.No shit. When I read the OP - thinking it was indeed yours and hence not paying attention to the actual poster - I was all confused.

I love you. :)

I know. http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41059000/jpg/_41059763_han.jpg

No shit. When I read the OP - thinking it was indeed yours and hence not paying attention to the actual poster - I was all confused.

Eww. I feel all icky.

Oh, go ahead and believe that the kids were beaten to death by police.
Um, pulling stuff out of your ass again?
He evidently doesn't think the kids went into the transformer willingly.
Quite. You actually ARE pulling stuff out of your ass again. AND you're playing the mind reader, that gives you two points and a bucket of crumbs. :rolleyes:

Let me repeat myself using small words:

We all know this story. There are 500 threads on it. You claim "the French have turned the spot where the two teens died into a public monument" and YOU FAIL TO LINK TO THAT STORY!

Please, before you probe my mind any further (I fear what you might find):

LINK TO BACK UP THE CLAIM ABOUT MAKING A PUBLIC MONUMENT, PLEASE!

Thank you.

And the law clearly states that they had a duty to do so. (Not just as police officers; that law applies to everyone.)

Interesting. British law is different - in many situations it just seems to assume that you will do the right thing. For instance, we have no law to say that drivers have to pull over to let emergency services vehicles overtake. Sadly, I think the French way is more realistic.

Um, pulling stuff out of your ass again?

Quite. You actually ARE pulling stuff out of your ass again. AND you're playing the mind reader, that gives you two points and a bucket of crumbs. :rolleyes:

Let me repeat myself using small words:

We all know this story. There are 500 threads on it. You claim "the French have turned the spot where the two teens died into a public monument" and YOU FAIL TO LINK TO THAT STORY!

Please, before you probe my mind any further (I fear what you might find):

LINK TO BACK UP THE CLAIM ABOUT MAKING A PUBLIC MONUMENT, PLEASE!

Thank you.

I guess the photo wasn't enough for you. Blind, are you?

French Socialist Presidential candidate Segolene Royal, the mother (no name available) of Zyed Benna, Zyed’s father Amor Benna, and relatives of late Bouna Traore, from left, stand at attention during a minute of silence during a wreath laying ceremony in homage to Zyed and Bouna in Clichy-sous-Bois, east of Paris, Tuesday, Feb. 27, 2007. Royal Tuesday visited the troubled neighborhood outside Paris where three weeks of rioting erupted in 2005, a highly symbolic campaign stop in a very tight race. Zyed Benna and Bouna Traore were killed on Oct. 27, 2005 as they hid from police in a power substation in the Paris suburb of Clichy-sous-Bois. (AP Photo/Michel Euler)

Relatives and friends of two French teenagers who were electrocuted as they fled from police a year ago have gathered in Clichy-sous-Bois near Paris. A plaque was unveiled in front of their school, and a wreath-laying ceremony was held at the power sub-station where the teenagers tried to hide.

The deaths of Zyed Benna and Bouna Traore sparked three weeks of violent riots in France’s poor suburbs as the young and unemployed vented their anger over what they saw as lack of opportunity and racial discrimination. The crowd gathered in silent prayer wearing t-shirts with the slogan “Dead for nothing”.

“It’s not by restricting them, or leaving them at home, or stopping them from going out - that’s not a solution,” said Zyed’s father. “The solution is to find them jobs, create training centres.”

And the story that goes with the photo I posted:

Socialist mayor of Clichy-sous-Bois in the northeast Paris suburb, Claude Dilain(C), lays a wreath at the entrance of an electrical sub-station where two teenagers, both of immigrant background, were accidentally electrocuted as they hid from the police a year ago.(AFP/Dominique Faget)

The Yahoo news links are no longer around.

Now, the French have turned the spot where the two teens died into a public monument.



Where does any of the articles you linked or posted indicate a public monument being created at the spot?

I guess the photo wasn't enough for you. Blind, are you?





And the story that goes with the photo I posted:



The Yahoo news links are no longer around.

Nothing you quoted says anything about a national monument. It's about a wreath laying ceremony. You really are pulling it out of your behind, aren't you?

I guess the photo wasn't enough for you. Blind, are you?





And the story that goes with the photo I posted:



The Yahoo news links are no longer around.
Um... shouldn't this have been the point where you say "Meh, okay, there isn't really a monument, I meant they were laying wreaths there, just a bit of hyperbole?" ?

Where do public officials usually have wreath-laying ceremonies (unless it's a funeral of a family member)?
:rolleyes:

Street corners (after massive accidents), private homes (after being burned down by right-wing militants in Germany, before the ruins are pulled down to make room for a new private residence), park gates (after the death of princess Diana), etc.
None of these are public monuments. Some aren't even public.

Where does any of the articles you linked or posted indicate a public monument being created at the spot?

Where do public officials usually have wreath-laying ceremonies (unless it's a funeral of a family member)?
:rolleyes:

By 'monument', I think he means 'pile of flowers'.


The OP is a twat.

I guess the photo wasn't enough for you. Blind, are you?
Oh I'm sorry, I didn't think this was the first thread you had ever made on NSG. Welcome to the internet, sonny.

A pic may say a thousand words, but it doesn't bring a context and it is very easy to manipulate your message using just the pic - which you obviously were trying to do.

And the story that goes with the photo I posted:



The Yahoo news links are no longer around.
Oh, and thanks for the quotes, proving that your OP was complete and utter Bullshit. And you seem to have known it from the get-go, considering how much trouble you made just because I asked for a measly link.
A plaque was unveiled in front of their school
Nothing about making the spot where they died into a public monument.

As such, this thread is utter drivel, and we're done here.

Where do public officials usually have wreath-laying ceremonies (unless it's a funeral of a family member)?
:rolleyes:

Doesn't change the fact that it's a damn far cry from being a national monument.

Doesn't change the fact that it's a damn far cry from being a national monument.

Did I say "national monument"?

More to the point - Gravlen isn't going to address that these teens were so stupid they couldn't read the large warnings on a transformer, and were so dull-witted that their act qualifies as a Darwin Award.

More to the point - Gravlen isn't going to address that these teens were so stupid they couldn't read the large warnings on a transformer, and were so dull-witted that their act qualifies as a Darwin Award.
No, I won't.

Why?

Because it isn't "to the point". Use "Search" and find the numerous other threads if that's what you want to know about. You can find my posts on the subject there.

About your claim that it's being made into a public monument, they've been debunked by yourself, so meh.

Um... shouldn't this have been the point where you say "Meh, okay, there isn't really a monument, I meant they were laying wreaths there, just a bit of hyperbole?" ?
Oh indeed, it should have been. Instead, I have to fight the urge to connect this thread to its title, "monument to stupidity".

Woe is me... :(

Did I say "national monument"?

More to the point - Gravlen isn't going to address that these teens were so stupid they couldn't read the large warnings on a transformer, and were so dull-witted that their act qualifies as a Darwin Award.
How on earth is that "more to the point" when the point for the last two pages has been that you falsely claimed the site was being made into a monument?

How on earth is that "more to the point" when the point for the last two pages has been that you falsely claimed the site was being made into a monument?

It's a public monument.

It's in public.

The people laying wreaths there (public officials) do so for the same reason, in public ceremonies.

It's not an "official" or "conscrated" or "government-built" monument - but it's a public monument.

If you can't understand that, I suggest a supplemental course in the English language.

Where do public officials usually have wreath-laying ceremonies (unless it's a funeral of a family member)?
:rolleyes:

Well, in Europe, its common practice for wreathes to be laid at the spot of an accident........Now it might be different in America, but thats not something I'd be aware of. However, "laying wreathes" does not necessarily involve a monument. There is no monument here, nor was this the unveiling of one therefore your Now, the French have turned the spot where the two teens died into a public monument. is incorrect. Now be a man, take it on the chin, and stop whining. I know its hard for some of your right wing types, but you really can't rant your way out of everything.

Wait? This thread isn't about the Bush Presidential Library?

Damn, just another Freedom Fries rant by Comrade Eve "I'm Swear Not Deep Kimchi" Online.

:rolleyes:

Well, in Europe, its common practice for wreathes to be laid at the spot of an accident........Now it might be different in America, but thats not something I'd be aware of. However, "laying wreathes" does not necessarily involve a monument. There is no monument here, nor was this the unveiling of one therefore your is incorrect. Now be a man, take it on the chin, and stop whining. I know its hard for some of your right wing types, but you really can't rant your way out of everything.
If it is being done by multiple public officials, in ceremonies here in the US, it's a "public monument". Even if temporary and impromptu.

If you can't understand that, I suggest a supplemental course in the English language.A monument, public or otherwise, normally refer to an object erected/created in the memory of an event or person(s).Gravlen isn't going to address that these teens were so stupid they couldn't read the large warnings on a transformer, and were so dull-witted that their act qualifies as a Darwin Award.Because when you're the wrong kind of person, you're innocent & suddenly find yourself chased by the cops for no reason, it's typically a really great idea to let them catch you - if you fancy getting beaten & possibly killed, that is.

Bullshit. If I dump a truckload of daisies on the side of a highway, it doesn't become anything other than a pile of flowers. If a thousand people each drop one daisy in a pile it's exactly the same thing. A pile of flowers.

Not a monument.

Here in the US, if public officials are doing it, it's a monument.

Oh, and no one has challenged the idea that the kids in question were stupid...

If it is being done by multiple public officials, in ceremonies here in the US, it's a "public monument". Even if temporary and impromptu.

Bullshit. If I dump a truckload of daisies on the side of a highway, it doesn't become anything other than a pile of flowers. If a thousand people each drop one daisy in a pile it's exactly the same thing. A pile of flowers.

Not a monument.

I guess the photo wasn't enough for you.

And Saddam is still alive! :eek:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38957000/jpg/_38957921_030314saddam_rumsfeld.jpg

Nothing particularly unusual about that.
I remember back in first or second grade, a kid at my school died. Apparently he was playing on the logs on the beach, got stuck under one and drowned.
The school built a baseball field and named it after him. Even back then I remember thinking that it was rather stupid. Apparently the kids parents were about a dozen yards away and failed to notice.
Of course, this was the early 90's, so the traditional way of remembering somebody who died wasnt a lawsuit.

Here in the US, if public officials are doing it, it's a monument.

...

What utter bollocks.....
mon·u·ment
Pronunciation: \ˈmän-yə-mənt\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin monumentum, literally, memorial, from monēre to remind — more at mind
Date: 13th century
1obsolete : a burial vault : sepulchre
2: a written legal document or record : treatise
3 a (1): a lasting evidence, reminder, or example of someone or something notable or great (2): a distinguished person b: a memorial stone or a building erected in remembrance of a person or event
4archaic : an identifying mark : evidence; also : portent, sign
5obsolete : a carved statue : effigy
6: a boundary or position marker (as a stone)
7: national monument
8: a written tribute
http://209.161.33.50/dictionary/monument

Here in the US, if public officials are doing it, it's a monument.
Well, that's just stupid.
Oh, and no one has challenged the idea that the kids in question were stupid...
I guess you'll just have to satisfy yourself with what everybody else wants to discuss with regards to your thread, then.

Here in the US, if public officials are doing it, it's a monument.

Main Entry:
national monument
Function:
noun
Date:
1879

: a place of historic, scenic, or scientific interest set aside for preservation usually by presidential proclamation

Merriam-Webster (http://www.merriam-webster.com/) disagrees.

Oh, and no one has challenged the idea that the kids in question were stupid...

What does their intelligence have to do with anything?

I'm not saying that the two youths were shining examples of foresight and intelligence. But I think you should read up about what happened that day before coming here sounding as uninformed as you do right now.

Well, if you want to lecture about people being uninformed, post a link to this story. I've been looking and I'm not finding it.

And I think regardless of what the cops were doing, it should be common sense not to try to hide in a transformer. If you ask me the kids were asking for it.

Well, if you want to lecture about people being uninformed, post a link to this story. I've been looking and I'm not finding it.

And I think regardless of what the cops were doing, it should be common sense not to try to hide in a transformer. If you ask me the kids were asking for it.

Ask most kids what a transformer is and they'll ask "You mean Autobot or Decepticon?" Plus when you're in an adrenalin rush as kids running from police would likely be, you're more for reacting than thinking.

Well, if you want to lecture about people being uninformed, post a link to this story. I've been looking and I'm not finding it.

And I think regardless of what the cops were doing, it should be common sense not to try to hide in a transformer. If you ask me the kids were asking for it.

The kids making the rather large mistake of hiding from the police in a transformer building doesn't alleviate the responsibility of the police to try and help them in such a situation.

Well, if you want to lecture about people being uninformed, post a link to this story. I've been looking and I'm not finding it.


Try the first page, thats usually where the "start" is. Not being able to find the start of a thread on your own, rather undermines your credibility when commenting on the relative intelligence of others.

I must correct that, as its not actually there. I might point out that an inability to use google, leading me to be wrong, and agreeing with Peeve-online rather undermine your credibility when commenting on the relative intelligence of others.

Try the first page, thats usually where the "start" is. Not being able to find the start of a thread on your own, rather undermines your credibility when commenting on the relative intelligence of others.

I find this hilarious, as the original op(before Kanabia stole it) doesn't have a link to the story. Not reading the OP rather undermines your credibility :p

I find this hilarious, as the original op(before Kanabia stole it) doesn't have a link to the story. Not reading the OP rather undermines your credibility :p

I'm quite well aware of that, which is why I referred laughing boy there to the first page, rather than the usual 'first post'.

I'm quite well aware of that, which is why I referred laughing boy there to the first page, rather than the usual 'first post'.

If you're trying to direct him to an article on this story you might want to send him to google, I don't think this thread has one.

You are in fact correct. I thought Muslim-bash online had posted one below that picture, for some reason.

You are in fact correct. I thought Muslim-bash online had posted one below that picture, for some reason.

By the way, where did that picture come from EO? Cos you have it uploaded to your photobucket account.

It's a public monument.

It's in public.

The people laying wreaths there (public officials) do so for the same reason, in public ceremonies.

It's not an "official" or "conscrated" or "government-built" monument - but it's a public monument.

If you can't understand that, I suggest a supplemental course in the English language.Why, that's exactly what I need! We could even take it together so you could study up on those pesky verbs like "consecrated"! :fluffle:

It's a public monument.

It's in public.

The people laying wreaths there (public officials) do so for the same reason, in public ceremonies.

It's not an "official" or "conscrated" or "government-built" monument - but it's a public monument.

If you can't understand that, I suggest a supplemental course in the English language.
I think you're the one in need of an education. Not that there's anything wrong with it, lots of people don't understand what they themself are talking about :)

Simply put: Yes, it's in public. No, it's not a monument. At least, you have not posted anything at all to support your claim that the french intends it to be a monument. Placing flowers at the place of someone's death does not spontaneously create a monument either, even if it's done by government officials.
Here in the US, if public officials are doing it, it's a monument.
That's simply not correct.

Oh, and no one has challenged the idea that the kids in question were stupid...
Because your thread and your OP has made that an irrelevant question. Well done.
And Saddam is still alive! :eek:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38957000/jpg/_38957921_030314saddam_rumsfeld.jpg
:eek: :D :fluffle: :fluffle:

Made me laugh :D
Well, if you want to lecture about people being uninformed, post a link to this story. I've been looking and I'm not finding it.

And I think regardless of what the cops were doing, it should be common sense not to try to hide in a transformer. If you ask me the kids were asking for it.
Click here (http://www.justfuckinggoogleit.com/)

Ok, police chase two youths (and no, their religion isn't even relevant), and the two youths make the fatal mistake of hiding inside of a transformer.

Both are electrocuted, and die. In a side note, thousands of people riot in "protest" of police behavior (gee, I didn't know that police were not supposed to chase potential suspects).

Now, the French have turned the spot where the two teens died into a public monument.

WTF?

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t48/eveonline_bucket/wreath.jpg

Hey! Look at the warning signs all over that thing!
Heh, sounds old
LOLZ OMGZ THOSE DAMN RETARDED FRENCHIES. :mp5:
I thought this was some genius spam thread for a moment...

Ok, police chase two youths (and no, their religion isn't even relevant), and the two youths make the fatal mistake of hiding inside of a transformer.

Both are electrocuted, and die. In a side note, thousands of people riot in "protest" of police behavior (gee, I didn't know that police were not supposed to chase potential suspects).

Now, the French have turned the spot where the two teens died into a public monument.

WTF?

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t48/eveonline_bucket/wreath.jpg

Hey! Look at the warning signs all over that thing!

This reminds of the cover of High Voltage (AC/DC debut album, the Australian verson) The album art contained a picture of a dog pissing on a transformer.

This is old. There was a thread on this like 3 weeks ago. Apparently, the authorities didn't alert the electrical company about the kids being inside the transformer. They didn't die right after going in; the police could've called the electrical company and told them to shut the transformer off and they could've been saved. On that note, it was said in the article that the boys might have only assumed that the police were chasing them. Its not known yet if they were or not.

Anyway, it was the duty of the police to call the electrical company... but for the good of the human race, we got rid of a couple of weak links. :p

The whole understanding of this inncident hinges on what you believe the police's responsibilities to be. In the US it seems to me that the primary responsibility of the police is to aprehend suspected criminals. Whereas in Europe the primary responsibility is towards public safety. Thus, in the US police will engage in high speed car chases and ram the suspects car in an attempt to bring the car to a halt. This is opposed to the European police who will tail the suspect so long as they are not endangering the lives of the public. At which point the police will keep a helicopter on the suspects car and cease tailing with police cars so the suspect no longer believes they are being chased and so will drive more safely.

ie.
US police - more aggresive
European police - more defensive

Except that US police were not involved, so what does their "aggressiveness" have to do with this --

And US police generally don't try to ram people's cars -- they try roadblocks. Ironically, the best chase I saw the end to *was* in the UK and DID use the tactic you just described, where British police had slowly set up obstacles to narrow a road a suspect was on, and pushed the suspect's car into a guard rail without hurting anyone.

Oh. My. Mod.

This reminds of the cover of High Voltage (AC/DC debut album, the Australian verson) The album art contained a picture of a dog pissing on a transformer.
wouldn't that electrocute the dog?

wouldn't that electrocute the dog?

Nah, the stream isn't solid enough, it's really just an arc of droplets. The air between them acts as an insulator.

This is old. There was a thread on this like 3 weeks ago. Apparently, the authorities didn't alert the electrical company about the kids being inside the transformer. They didn't die right after going in; the police could've called the electrical company and told them to shut the transformer off and they could've been saved. On that note, it was said in the article that the boys might have only assumed that the police were chasing them. Its not known yet if they were or not.It is known. An investigation revealed that contrary to the police's claims, the youths were being chased. Perhaps the scum should've destroyed the evidence, but then again.. Nobody cares that the police lies their asses off & in that particular district are well known for hunting down & hurting immigrant kids for sport.Anyway, it was the duty of the police to call the electrical company... but for the good of the human race, we got rid of a couple of weak links. :pAs far as I know, nobody executed the coppers. I assume that's the weak links you're talking about, right? I mean, it'd be monstrous of me to assume you meant innocent kids fleeing armed thugs. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/08/AR2007020802218.html?nav=hcmodule)

Nah, the stream isn't solid enough, it's really just an arc of droplets. The air between them acts as an insulator.

i don't know what YOUR pee looks like, but mine's a stream :)

anyways, the voltage from a transformer must be great enough to jump the block. you still get shocked without touching a surface, and lightning passes through air.

surely mythbusters have done this?

i don't know what YOUR pee looks like, but mine's a stream :)

anyways, the voltage from a transformer must be great enough to jump the block. you still get shocked without touching a surface, and lightning passes through air.

surely mythbusters have done this?

They have, and you don't get electrocuted.

Thought it was a live rail that the piss was aimed at, not a transformer....

They have, and you don't get electrocuted.

Thought it was a live rail that the piss was aimed at, not a transformer....

also the urine was gravity fed out of a bag, not forced out by a bladder.

but all the foricing would do is keep the coersion of the stream longer.

the stream forms droplets near the end of the fall. that's why it won't arch.

the stream forms droplets near the end of the fall. that's why it won't arch.

Unless the voltage is high, which it is in a transformer. Also, the dog could have been pissing on a protective wall or a fence.

UPDATE:http://www.rockul.info/photo/ACDC/album_High-Voltage.jpg
Nevermind.

I agree that the police should have done something to decrease the danger for the two suspects, they were derelict in that regard. I just won't believe there is anything "innocent" about those particular civilians.

There seems to be much debatte about that in France right now. I personally stick with "innocent until proven guilty".

Right. We should never ever complain about police acting recklessly, after all everything the police does is legal and right by definition.
So the fact that the two policemen in question neglected not only their official responsibilities but also their civic duties which resulted in the death of two innocent citizens should be blamed on the dead youths instead. And let's give the policemen a medal while we're at it.

I agree that the police should have done something to decrease the danger for the two suspects, they were derelict in that regard. I just won't believe there is anything "innocent" about those particular civilians.

Unless the voltage is high, which it is in a transformer. Also, the dog could have been pissing on a protective wall or a fence.

UPDATE:http://www.rockul.info/photo/ACDC/album_High-Voltage.jpg
Nevermind.

err... yeah... and on Mythbusters, they found that for the Third Rail myth, the person's tool had to be about that close as well.

There seems to be much debatte about that in France right now. I personally stick with "innocent until proven guilty".

either way, it doesn't warrent a "monument" to those two.

unless France also puts up such monuments for anyone who loses their life... including any police officers.

unless France also puts up such monuments for anyone who loses their life... including any police officers.

I'm fairly sure France has a monument for fallen police officers...

either way, it doesn't warrent a "monument" to those two.

unless France also puts up such monuments for anyone who loses their life... including any police officers.

You may want to read the OP again.. even so he's still to provide a link, not even his initial copy&paste stroy mentiones a monument. It only mentions a wreath laying ceremony.

I agree that the police should have done something to decrease the danger for the two suspects, they were derelict in that regard. I just won't believe there is anything "innocent" about those particular civilians.What do you base your opinion on?

What do you base your opinion on?

I admit I don't recall the exact circumstance that led to the chase to begin with but there had to have been a reason. The very fact those two kids ran from the police to begin with is evidence enough to not have any description of "innocent" when describing them.

I'm fairly sure France has a monument for fallen police officers... I'm not sure, which is why I asked.

You may want to read the OP again.. even so he's still to provide a link, not even his initial copy&paste stroy mentiones a monument. It only mentions a wreath laying ceremony. and it's an "offical cerimony" right? done by a Government Offical? question still stands, do they do such ceremony for every loss of life?



The whole understanding of this inncident hinges on what you believe the police's responsibilities to be. In the US it seems to me that the primary responsibility of the police is to aprehend suspected criminals. Whereas in Europe the primary responsibility is towards public safety. Thus, in the US police will engage in high speed car chases and ram the suspects car in an attempt to bring the car to a halt. This is opposed to the European police who will tail the suspect so long as they are not endangering the lives of the public. At which point the police will keep a helicopter on the suspects car and cease tailing with police cars so the suspect no longer believes they are being chased and so will drive more safely.

ie.
US police - more aggresive
European police - more defensiveExcept that US police were not involved, so what does their "aggressiveness" have to do with this --

And US police generally don't try to ram people's cars -- they try roadblocks. Ironically, the best chase I saw the end to *was* in the UK and DID use the tactic you just described, where British police had slowly set up obstacles to narrow a road a suspect was on, and pushed the suspect's car into a guard rail without hurting anyone. US police use a variety of means before the PITT (raming a corner of the car to spin it to a stop.) they employ roadblocks, spike strips, even use their cars to pinch the suspects car to a halt. the PITT is used when the driver shows absolutly no concern for anyone's safety. they also employ the same tactics you say European police use. including following at a safe distance and employing helicopters.

I admit I don't recall the exact circumstance that led to the chase to begin with but there had to have been a reason. The very fact those two kids ran from the police to begin with is evidence enough to not have any description of "innocent" when describing them.
Here's one version:
According to statements by Mr. Altun, who remains hospitalized with injuries, a group of ten or so friends had been playing football on a nearby field and were returning home when they saw the police patrol. They all fled in different directions to avoid the lengthy questioning that youths in the housing projects say they often face from the police. They say they are required to present identity papers and can be held as long as four hours at the police station, and sometimes their parents must come before the police will release them.
"The resentment is huge here, and we were not surprised to see an incident like this spark it off," said Mokded Hannachi, a government official involved in youth affairs who has been acting as a mediator between the police and the youths. "You cannot constantly stop people for no reason to check their papers and not have consequences."
from the New York times (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/07/international/europe/07youths.html/partner/rssnyt?ex=1173070800&en=df0dc05997c1d5b4&ei=5070) (Registration required)

The youngest was 15. I see no evidence that they were not innocent.

I'm not sure, which is why I asked.

and it's an "offical cerimony" right? done by a Government Offical? question still stands, do they do such ceremony for every loss of life?

If said loss od life is probalby cause by negligence of government officials, they damn well better.

But in all honesty, if those to deaths hadn't let to such an outcry all over France and the ensuing riots, I seriously doubt that the boys' families would have gotten so much as a "oops, sorry" from official side. Nothing to do with France in particular, all governemts tend to have this slightly arrogant attitude when someone in their service illegally kills or causes the death of civilian "lowlifes".


US police use a variety of means before the PITT (raming a corner of the car to spin it to a stop.) they employ roadblocks, spike strips, even use their cars to pinch the suspects car to a halt. the PITT is used when the driver shows absolutly no concern for anyone's safety. they also employ the same tactics you say European police use. including following at a safe distance and employing helicopters.

I think what he was trying to point out is more that Europeans regard it as the most important job of the police to protect citizens, including criminals, as far as possible.
USAmericans tend to see the police more in the role of handing out the punishment afterwards.

I'm more apt to believe police then those who run from them. Suspects will always claim they "did nothing" after all.

Seeing that the police claimed that they were not pursuing the two youths in question, I guess we have to agree that they must have been innocent after all then.

The youngest was 15. I see no evidence that they were not innocent.

I'm more apt to believe police then those who run from them. Suspects will always claim they "did nothing" after all.

I'm more apt to believe police then those who run from them. Suspects will always claim they "did nothing" after all.
See what Cabra said above. The police and interior minister Sarkozy claim they weren't pursued. So you may feel free to believe them :)

I admit I don't recall the exact circumstance that led to the chase to begin with but there had to have been a reason. The very fact those two kids ran from the police to begin with is evidence enough to not have any description of "innocent" when describing them.The police decided to do an ID check of a bunch of kids playing footy. There was no cause for it, the coppers were just harassing immigrant kids to kill time, and there's absolutely nothing unusual about that in those parts. Even the coppers own investigation of the events admitted that much.
Consequences of getting caught typically involves being detained for several hours, frequently 'til coppers can be arsed to contact the parents or the parents themselves come to the police. Less frequent is regular beatdowns where bored coppers single out a couple of kids & beat the shit out of them for shits & giggles. People are almost never beaten to death, but it happens.

So these really, really suspect kids who really, really had it comming, did nothing what so ever to attract the attention of the police, had every reason in the world to run for their lives, and were chased to their deaths for no fucking reason at all, courtesy of racist, negligent coppers.

And no, I'm not gonna bother providing you with links. Google is your friend.

Just as a little afterthought; whatever happened to the concept of justice? Since when did it become the job of the police to dish out punishment? I thought even suspected criminals, which these kids weren't, were to be protected from themselves, circumstance & thugs with badges... Guess I was wrong. Fucking fascists.

In this case they were simply idiots who got themselves killed because of their stupidity. They still only have themselves to blame.

Yes, but that still doesn't absolve the police officers of their duty to try to help save them, cops still have to respond to people attempting suicide....

See what Cabra said above. The police and interior minister Sarkozy claim they weren't pursued. So you may feel free to believe them :)

In this case they were simply idiots who got themselves killed because of their stupidity. They still only have themselves to blame.

If said loss od life is probalby cause by negligence of government officials, they damn well better.so only when the loss of life is done by the Negligence of GOVERNMENT Officals, and not when it's a wasteful loss of life. (say a tragic car accident, or someone being gunned/knifed/beaten to death by a thug or something.)

But in all honesty, if those to deaths hadn't let to such an outcry all over France and the ensuing riots, I seriously doubt that the boys' families would have gotten so much as a "oops, sorry" from official side. Nothing to do with France in particular, all governemts tend to have this slightly arrogant attitude when someone in their service illegally kills or causes the death of civilian "lowlifes".that's Frances problem. here in the US, Lawsuits against the officers are one means.

I think what he was trying to point out is more that Europeans regard it as the most important job of the police to protect citizens, including criminals, as far as possible.
USAmericans tend to see the police more in the role of handing out the punishment afterwards.This is opposed to the European police who will tail the suspect so long as they are not endangering the lives of the public. At which point the police will keep a helicopter on the suspects car and cease tailing with police cars so the suspect no longer believes they are being chased and so will drive more safely. nope, sounds more like a jab at the supposed Recklessness of the police officers. it implies that European Police are the only ones who tail suspects at a safe distance when infact, all police in every nation tends to strive to do that, it's only when extenuating circumstances warrant otherwise.

and US officers strive to defend. but they also stive to PROTECT and that also includes proactive action and not just reactive action.

The police and interior minister Sarkozy claim they weren't pursued. So you may feel free to believe them :)Independent investigation later revealed (officially last month) that the coppers were indeed chasing the kids. They were stupid enough to communicate as much to the station, so it's on record. Sarkozy's lying scum.

In this case they were simply idiots who got themselves killed because of their stupidity. They still only have themselves to blame.

So you seriously believe that the two police officers, who knew that the two kids were in mortal danger and did absolutely nothing to get them out of it acted lawfully?

Imagine police came across a road accident, with an apparently incompetent driver who managed to wrap his car around a tree. The driver still alive and stuck in his car, and police notice petrol dripping out of the damaged car. Bits of the cars are burning, and it's highly likely that there will soon be an explosion... and the police drive on without even notifying any emergency service.
France, along with most countries that I know of, has laws against this kind of behaviour. When seeing a person in danger, everybody is obliged to assist as long as that doesn't endager themselves. These two cops didn't, thereby comitting a crime.

so only when the loss of life is done by the Negligence of GOVERNMENT Officals, and not when it's a wasteful loss of life. (say a tragic car accident, or someone being gunned/knifed/beaten to death by a thug or something.)

Government officials act on behalf of governments. If they mess up, it's up to the governments to apologise and try to make amends. In a perfect world, that is.


that's Frances problem. here in the US, Lawsuits against the officers are one means.

Which, in many cases such as the Cavalese "accident" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavalese_cable-car_disaster), end without result whatsoever in the US.
And the two cops currently face charges of negligence.

In this case they were simply idiots who got themselves killed because of their stupidity. They still only have themselves to blame.
Yes and no. They shouldn't have hid in the power station.

Then again, the police shouldn't have broken the law by not intervening and getting them out / notifying the power company. As such, they may share in the responsibility of the death of those kids.
Independent investigation later revealed (officially last month) that the coppers were indeed chasing the kids. They were stupid enough to communicate as much to the station, so it's on record. Sarkozy's lying scum.

The point still remains; whether or not they were chased isn't really relevant. They ran and hid, and there isn't any evidence of any criminal wrongdoing on their part that would warrant a pursuit. And the police messed up, with fatal consequences.

So you seriously believe that the two police officers, who knew that the two kids were in mortal danger and did absolutely nothing to get them out of it acted lawfully?Don't you know people in uniform are always in the right? Don't question authority CW. Especially not authority with a trackrecord of being violent racist thugs. Now be a good little girl, kiss Mein Kampf & say you're sorry.

Here's one version:


from the New York times (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/07/international/europe/07youths.html/partner/rssnyt?ex=1173070800&en=df0dc05997c1d5b4&ei=5070) (Registration required)
The youngest was 15. I see no evidence that they were not innocent.


According to statements by Mr. Altun, who remains hospitalized with injuries, a group of ten or so friends had been playing football on a nearby field and were returning home when they saw the police patrol. They all fled in different directions to avoid the lengthy questioning that youths in the housing projects say they often face from the police. They say they are required to present identity papers and can be held as long as four hours at the police station, and sometimes their parents must come before the police will release them.

Quote:
"The resentment is huge here, and we were not surprised to see an incident like this spark it off," said Mokded Hannachi, a government official involved in youth affairs who has been acting as a mediator between the police and the youths. "You cannot constantly stop people for no reason to check their papers and not have consequences."

So let me get this straight. You as a law enforcement officer, see 10 kids look at you and scatter. not just run, but scatter. and you will not think that those kids are up to something?

How would you know that those kids (whom you probably never got a good look at, being that it was at night) did not do some B&E, or other crime that just hasn't been reported yet, or may have seen something that the officers are investigating?

and did Mr. Altun confirm that they are routinely stopped by officers for no apparent reason?

they are questioned frequently, but are those questions in reguards to any on going investigations?

held for four hours. that is CAN BE held for four hours. which also can indicate that the holding is NOT all the time, nor is it not in relationship to any investigation.

To many holes in the snippet you posted, can you past the entire article Graves?

So you seriously believe that the two police officers, who knew that the two kids were in mortal danger and did absolutely nothing to get them out of it acted lawfully?

Imagine police came across a road accident, with an apparently incompetent driver who managed to wrap his car around a tree. The driver still alive and stuck in his car, and police notice petrol dripping out of the damaged car. Bits of the cars are burning, and it's highly likely that there will soon be an explosion... and the police drive on without even notifying any emergency service.
France, along with most countries that I know of, has laws against this kind of behaviour. When seeing a person in danger, everybody is obliged to assist as long as that doesn't endager themselves. These two cops didn't, thereby comitting a crime.

I said earlier that I agree that the police should have done something to help the kids. Still, the kids couldn't have counted on somebody rescuing them from their own stupidity. They still deserve a large part of the blame for their own actions.

Don't you know people in uniform are always in the right? Don't question authority CW. Especially not authority with a trackrecord of being violent racist thugs. Now be a good little girl, kiss Mein Kampf & say you're sorry.

:rolleyes:

Government officials act on behalf of governments. If they mess up, it's up to the governments to apologise and try to make amends. In a perfect world, that is.so laying a wreath is as good as saying "oops, sorry"?

here we have many "roadside memorials" for any tragic loss of life. including officers. but they are not cerimonalised. they are just quietly done. the officals show their concern through Investigation and improvment where needed.


Which, in many cases such as the Cavalese "accident" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavalese_cable-car_disaster), end without result whatsoever in the US.
And the two cops currently face charges of negligence.
and that is up to their court system, which I am not saying the cops are either guilty or innocent of negligence.

just realise tho. "Innocent till proven Guilty" also has to encompass those officers as well.

so laying a wreath is as good as saying "oops, sorry"?

here we have many "roadside memorials" for any tragic loss of life. including officers. but they are not cerimonalised. they are just quietly done. the officals show their concern through Investigation and improvment where needed.


They are done here as well.


and that is up to their court system, which I am not saying the cops are either guilty or innocent of negligence.

just realise tho. "Innocent till proven Guilty" also has to encompass those officers as well.

True, but right now there seems to be a lot more evidence to support the policemen's negligence than there is or ever was of the guilt of those two kids.

I said earlier that I agree that the police should have done something to help the kids. Still, the kids couldn't have counted on somebody rescuing them from their own stupidity. They still deserve a large part of the blame for their own actions.
And I don't think many people deny that. But still, if the police had done their jobs - heck, just obeyed the law like every Pierre Frenchman (i.e. Random Bob ;) ) is supposed to do - those deaths could have been avoided. And remove the arbitrary ID-checks and the random questionings and detainment also arranged by the police, and this may never have happened in the first place.

That's why it's not enough to simply blame the stupidity of a 15- and a 17-year old for their own deaths, even if the unfortunate event happened mostly due to themselves.

just realise tho. "Innocent till proven Guilty" also has to encompass those officers as well.
And it should also be taken into consideration when speaking of the dead children as well...

To many holes in the snippet you posted, can you past the entire article Graves?
Sure, I only posted what I thought would be relevant. It's not a complete article on this matter :)

Here you go:

Behind the Furor, the Last Moments of Two Youths

By THOMAS CRAMPTON
Published: November 7, 2005

CLICHY-SOUS-BOIS, France, Nov. 6 - In life, they were uncelebrated. In death, Zyed Benna, 17, and Bouna Traore, 15, have inspired more than 10 days of riots that have spread from housing projects in the suburbs of Paris to cities and towns across France.

A chance encounter with the police on a walk back from a soccer game on Oct. 27 ended with the two young men dead and a friend seriously injured in what the authorities have called an accidental electrocution.

The families of the young men in this rundown area of a suburb north of Paris, largely populated with first- and second-generation immigrants, have reacted to the riots and barrage of news media interest by uniting and occasionally responding aggressively to inquiries from outsiders. Their parents refused to be interviewed.

But some of their friends and acquaintances agreed to talk. A friend of Mr. Traore's, Samy Asma, 17, said Saturday that many people admired the soccer skills of the youth, who was of Mauritanian origin.

Patrick Rodrigues, the resident manager of the building where Mr. Benna lived, described the youth, who was of Tunisian origin, as quiet and polite. "I know the good and bad in this building, and he was good, like his family," Mr. Rodrigues said. "I could never imagine Zyed taking part in any of this burning of cars."

During the day, the neighborhood and buildings where the youths lived have little hint of the violent clashes at night. But inside the housing projects, families often live in crowded conditions.

As for the action that apparently led to the deaths - fleeing a police identity inspection - other youths in the housing project empathized.

"I know why they ran away when they saw the police, and I have done the same thing many times myself," said Diadie Camara, 18, a friend of Mr. Traore's, who stood at the bottom of the staircase outside the apartment building where the victim's family lived. "Bouna was just a small guy who wouldn't do anything against anyone."

According to two initial police investigations, the incident began at 5:20 p.m. on Thursday, Oct. 27, when a squad of police officers arrived to investigate a possible break-in at a construction site in Clichy-sous-Bois.

By 5:50 p.m., the police had brought six youths back to the police station at Livry-Gargan for questioning. As they questioned the youths, computer screens in the station blacked out and several areas nearby suffered a power failure.

That blackout, at 6:12 p.m., was caused by what police called the electrocution of the two youths and the injury of their friend Muttin Altun, 17, as they hid in a transformer at an electrical substation.

According to statements by Mr. Altun, who remains hospitalized with injuries, a group of 10 or so friends had been playing soccer on a nearby field and were returning home when they saw the police patrol.

They all fled in different directions to avoid the lengthy questioning that youths in the housing projects say they often face from the police. They say they are required to present identity papers and can be held as long as four hours at the police station, and sometimes their parents must come before the police will release them.

That evening, as news of the deaths spread, youths began to burn cars, break windows and vandalize bus stops in Clichy-sous-Bois. A small fire burned itself out in a school building and a cordon of nearly 50 police officers prevented a group of youths from approaching the town hall.

Anger that started locally has spread quickly through Internet chat rooms, cellphone text messages and online articles, as well as video images like one on Afrik.com that includes what residents of Clichy-sous-Bois say is a home videotape of the police using Flash-Ball guns, which shoot soft balls at high velocity, on rioters. "The resentment is huge here, and we were not surprised to see an incident like this spark it off," said Mokded Hannachi, a government official involved in youth affairs who has been acting as a mediator between the police and the youths. "You cannot constantly stop people for no reason to check their papers and not have consequences."

While the use of weapons such as Flash-Ball guns has discouraged youths from having pitched battles with the police, Mr. Hannachi said the government must become engaged with the youths to calm the situation.

"We now need investigations, condemnations for those who have done things wrong and apologies for mistakes," Mr. Hannachi said. "You can already see what happens when repression tactics are used."

True, but right now there seems to be a lot more evidence to support the policemen's negligence than there is or ever was of the guilt of those two kids.
however, Guilt has to be proven in a Court, not on Television or in any other Media. Also, all the evidence shown is going through a third party at least. so you have the question of "is it tainted" by the writers/newscasters.

And it should also be taken into consideration when speaking of the dead children as well...Let me clarify. I am not saying the kids are guilty of anything. it is possible that this was just a series of tragic events fueled by a mistake or misunderstanding.

Sure, I only posted what I thought would be relevant. It's not a complete article on this matter :)

Here you go:thanks. :)

Let me clarify. I am not saying the kids are guilty of anything. it is possible that this was just a series of tragic events fueled by a mistake or misunderstanding.

thanks. :)
My comment wasn't really directed at you, but those who believe that the kids somehow deserved this due to running from the police and their stupidity when choosing a hiding place. But you're right, it might all be a series of tragic events though the presented evidence at this time is suggesting something else.

Oh, and you're welcome. :)

And I don't think many people deny that. But still, if the police had done their jobs - heck, just obeyed the law like every Pierre Frenchman (i.e. Random Bob ;) ) is supposed to do - those deaths could have been avoided. And remove the arbitrary ID-checks and the random questionings and detainment also arranged by the police, and this may never have happened in the first place.

That's why it's not enough to simply blame the stupidity of a 15- and a 17-year old for their own deaths, even if the unfortunate event happened mostly due to themselves.

All those changes to the police tactics are certainly valid. But I can not ignore personal responsibility of those kids in this case. We will simply have to disagree here.

All those changes to the police tactics are certainly valid. But I can not ignore personal responsibility of those kids in this case. We will simply have to disagree here.

We can do that, as long as you remember that the conduct of the police and the actions of the kids really are two separate questions. ;) Cheers.

ok... some points from the NYT article

Behind the Furor, the Last Moments of Two Youths

By THOMAS CRAMPTON
Published: November 7, 2005

CLICHY-SOUS-BOIS, France, Nov. 6 - In life, they were uncelebrated. In death, Zyed Benna, 17, and Bouna Traore, 15, have inspired more than 10 days of riots that have spread from housing projects in the suburbs of Paris to cities and towns across France.

A chance encounter with the police on a walk back from a soccer game on Oct. 27 ended with the two young men dead and a friend seriously injured in what the authorities have called an accidental electrocution.

The families of the young men in this rundown area of a suburb north of Paris, largely populated with first- and second-generation immigrants, have reacted to the riots and barrage of news media interest by uniting and occasionally responding aggressively to inquiries from outsiders. Their parents refused to be interviewed.

But some of their friends and acquaintances agreed to talk. A friend of Mr. Traore's, Samy Asma, 17, said Saturday that many people admired the soccer skills of the youth, who was of Mauritanian origin.

Patrick Rodrigues, the resident manager of the building where Mr. Benna lived, described the youth, who was of Tunisian origin, as quiet and polite. "I know the good and bad in this building, and he was good, like his family," Mr. Rodrigues said. "I could never imagine Zyed taking part in any of this burning of cars."

During the day, the neighborhood and buildings where the youths lived have little hint of the violent clashes at night. But inside the housing projects, families often live in crowded conditions. Off topic, but is the French Government looking into these conditions... making sure they are not sub standard?

As for the action that apparently led to the deaths - fleeing a police identity inspection - other youths in the housing project empathized.

"I know why they ran away when they saw the police, and I have done the same thing many times myself," said Diadie Camara, 18, a friend of Mr. Traore's, who stood at the bottom of the staircase outside the apartment building where the victim's family lived. "Bouna was just a small guy who wouldn't do anything against anyone."

According to two initial police investigations, the incident began at 5:20 p.m. on Thursday, Oct. 27, when a squad of police officers arrived to investigate a possible break-in at a construction site in Clichy-sous-Bois. So a Break-in was reported. Does anyone know if the Construction site is nearby?

so now the police are looking for a B&E and possibly Theift.

By 5:50 p.m., the police had brought six youths back to the police station at Livry-Gargan for questioning. As they questioned the youths, computer screens in the station blacked out and several areas nearby suffered a power failure.

That blackout, at 6:12 p.m., was caused by what police called the electrocution of the two youths and the injury of their friend Muttin Altun, 17, as they hid in a transformer at an electrical substation.now this has me puzzled. here in the US, or at least Hawaii, Substations are fenced in and secured, some with high brick walls and solid and sealed doors. it's tresspassing to enter the substations. the earlier article (months ago) made it sound like that the substations were open. I'll now argue that the police are not the only one's under suspicion of negligence, but the power Station for not having a secure substation. is this being investigated also?

Edit:
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t48/eveonline_bucket/wreath.jpg
Guess not secured. if people can sit on top of the walls, and the walls don't look that high...

According to statements by Mr. Altun, who remains hospitalized with injuries, a group of 10 or so friends had been playing soccer on a nearby field and were returning home when they saw the police patrol.

They all fled in different directions to avoid the lengthy questioning that youths in the housing projects say they often face from the police. They say they are required to present identity papers and can be held as long as four hours at the police station, and sometimes their parents must come before the police will release them.so imagine you are now the police.

you are searching for suspects or even witnesses to the B&E and you see ten kids scatter and run at the sight of you on patrol. now can you honestly tell me that you won't give chase?

That evening, as news of the deaths spread, youths began to burn cars, break windows and vandalize bus stops in Clichy-sous-Bois. A small fire burned itself out in a school building and a cordon of nearly 50 police officers prevented a group of youths from approaching the town hall.

Anger that started locally has spread quickly through Internet chat rooms, cellphone text messages and online articles, as well as video images like one on Afrik.com that includes what residents of Clichy-sous-Bois say is a home videotape of the police using Flash-Ball guns, which shoot soft balls at high velocity, on rioters. "The resentment is huge here, and we were not surprised to see an incident like this spark it off," said Mokded Hannachi, a government official involved in youth affairs who has been acting as a mediator between the police and the youths. "You cannot constantly stop people for no reason to check their papers and not have consequences."so a B&E is not a reason to stop and question people who scatter and run from the police? sounds like someone wanting votes instead of justice. but that's my opinion.

While the use of weapons such as Flash-Ball guns has discouraged youths from having pitched battles with the police, Mr. Hannachi said the government must become engaged with the youths to calm the situation.

"We now need investigations, condemnations for those who have done things wrong and apologies for mistakes," Mr. Hannachi said. "You can already see what happens when repression tactics are used."

thanks for the full article.

again, I am not saying the officers, or the kids are guilty nor are they not guilty... I'm just looking for facts.

We can do that, as long as you remember that the conduct of the police and the actions of the kids really are two separate questions. ;) Cheers.

The police indeed should have done more than they did in this case but the kids should never have gone in there to begin with. I really don't see how we can seperate the two questions.

wouldn't that electrocute the dog?

No shit, Sherlock.