NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok, so once again I am bothered by the same people who would like to "save" me, but now they've gone after Kay. Why, because she dress differently, she is a goth. So once again, I hear the same crap, saving your soul from damnation, blah blah blah. Of course they also tell Kay this which I take offense to because I don't care if they tell me this crap, I've been around it my whole life, but to tell her that she's going to Hell because she likes to be different and is agnostic is an entirely different matter. Normally I go through my usual rant that is guaranteed to get rid of any Christian fundie, then something interesting happens. He then strikes on homosexuality and tells her that they're going to Hell too. Ahh God, never tell Kay that because well, David was gay, and he was very important to her before he was killed. She went off on a rant herself and I tried very hard not to laugh.

Anyways, the point of this little story is that shortly after this, I start to wonder about Hell and what earns you a ticket to Hell. I mean Christianity doesn't own the market of "follow our faith or burn in Hell!" Islam, Judaism, and several other religion also claim that they are the correct religion and if we do not follow them, then we shall be damned to Hell. Do we even know if there's such thing as the correct way to worship God? Maybe there's not and all the different religion are just different path to God and to Heaven.

I mean why would God, who I believe is kind and loving, would damn 2/3rd of mankind just because they didn't choose Christianity as their religion? I mean sure anyone can read the Bible and say that they are the correct one, but I like to think for myself, and after studying different religion in college, and meeting people from different religion, it just doesn't compute in my mind that God would damn 2/3rd of mankind over something as stupid as the way they worship him! I mean I don't know is Catholicism is the right faith, Hell I may be going to Hell by being Catholic, it sure seems like it from how many times I've been told that. I don't know if Catholicism is the right faith, all I know that it is right for me, and it's not right for everyone. I don't believe in damning people to Hell just because they have a different way to worship God. I don't know, I just think you'd have to do a whole lot of bad stuff/karma to earn the ticket to enteral damnation.

What do you guys think?

A lot of the Christians I know (I'm not one myself) don't believe that. They're pretty accepting of different beliefs and think that religion is meant to be a very personal experience, not a "my way or else" thing.

To the fundies you speak of, one of my favorite responses to the "you're going to hell" thing is:

"Well, I'm relieved to hear that, being damned to suffer forever sure beats spending eternity with people like you."

Ok, so once again I am bothered by the same people who would like to "save" me, but now they've gone after Kay. Why, because she dress differently, she is a goth. So once again, I hear the same crap, saving your soul from damnation, blah blah blah. Of course they also tell Kay this which I take offense to because I don't care if they tell me this crap, I've been around it my whole life, but to tell her that she's going to Hell because she likes to be different and is agnostic is an entirely different matter. Normally I go through my usual rant that is guaranteed to get rid of any Christian fundie, then something interesting happens. He then strikes on homosexuality and tells her that they're going to Hell too. Ahh God, never tell Kay that because well, David was gay, and he was very important to her before he was killed. She went off on a rant herself and I tried very hard not to laugh.

Anyways, the point of this little story is that shortly after this, I start to wonder about Hell and what earns you a ticket to Hell. I mean Christianity doesn't own the market of "follow our faith or burn in Hell!" Islam, Judaism, and several other religion also claim that they are the correct religion and if we do not follow them, then we shall be damned to Hell. Do we even know if there's such thing as the correct way to worship God? Maybe there's not and all the different religion are just different path to God and to Heaven.

I mean why would God, who I believe is kind and loving, would damn 2/3rd of mankind just because they didn't choose Christianity as their religion? I mean sure anyone can read the Bible and say that they are the correct one, but I like to think for myself, and after studying different religion in college, and meeting people from different religion, it just doesn't compute in my mind that God would damn 2/3rd of mankind over something as stupid as the way they worship him! I mean I don't know is Catholicism is the right faith, Hell I may be going to Hell by being Catholic, it sure seems like it from how many times I've been told that. I don't know if Catholicism is the right faith, all I know that it is right for me, and it's not right for everyone. I don't believe in damning people to Hell just because they have a different way to worship God. I don't know, I just think you'd have to do a whole lot of bad stuff/karma to earn the ticket to enteral damnation.

What do you guys think?

Islam is not like that actually. There are several verses in the Qur'an stating Jews and Christians may also go to paradise if they have done good deeds. Getting to paradise(imo) has less to do with faith and more to do with being a righteous person and doing good. Of course however, the surest way to do this is to follow the path Allah swt has given us.

Islam is not like that actually. There are several verses in the Qur'an stating Jews and Christians may also go to paradise if they have done good deeds. Getting to paradise(imo) has less to do with faith and more to do with being a righteous person and doing good. Of course however, the surest way to do this is to follow the path Allah swt has given us.

I agree, I mean to me if you're a good person, and you live by the Golden Rule, and if you treat your fellow man pretty well, you'll go to Heaven. If you're a complete bastard and is the complete opposite, you'll go to Hell.

tell them to go away, or shut up.
people who push issues get what they deserve, wether it be
a tounge lashing, or a trap door directly to their own created "hell"
under the porch...
it makes sense to admit to being agnostic...
as every religion in existance can't fully express what are god qualities, and admit it transcends comprehension.
agnostics are honest about that, privately to themselves, and with others.
wonder at the creation. Why should someone have to "join a religion.
only you know the real answer, every man's path is as infinite in expression
as there are atoms in the universe!!!
And then you tell them to go away...

it just doesn't compute in my mind that God would damn 2/3rd of mankind over something as stupid as the way they worship him!

Indeed so. Round here there seems to be a disproportionate number of evangelical free churches. ('Free' - not affiliated to Church of England or to Baptists, Catholics, URC etc) Many of them seem to have got it into their heads that pretty much anyone outside their congregation is hellbound. They all must think they're really lucky to have picked the one and only right church, seeing as there are so many.

I'm afraid I'm not as nice as I used to be. I used to try not to upset people; these days, I'm not so accomodating.

The last guy who tried this, I told him to shut his fool mouth and stop spreading lies.

I agree, I mean to me if you're a good person, and you live by the Golden Rule, and if you treat your fellow man pretty well, you'll go to Heaven. If you're a complete bastard and is the complete opposite, you'll go to Hell.

One might say that doing good deeds is accepting "God" in your heart, regardless of how you worship.

:D Oh the joys of being an agnost, and seeing all sides of an issue.

However, Scientology, I can guarentee is dead wrong.

One might say that doing good deeds is accepting "God" in your heart, regardless of how you worship.

:D Oh the joys of being an agnost, and seeing all sides of an issue.

However, Scientology, I can guarentee is dead wrong.

Any religion that thinks Tom Cruise is their 'Christ' is wrong. *nods*

Any religion that thinks Tom Cruise is their 'Christ' is wrong. *nods*

I think people of all faiths can agree on that.:p

Well, with regard to Judaism, we do not preach damnation in any form. In fact, there is no hell in Judaism. We say the righteous of every nation and religion go directly to paradise, and those who are unrighteous may have to spend some time in Gehinnom before they can go.

A lot of the Christians I know (I'm not one myself) don't believe that. They're pretty accepting of different beliefs and think that religion is meant to be a very personal experience, not a "my way or else" thing.
However, a core teaching of Christianity based on the supposed words of Yeshua is that no-one can get to god except through adhering to Yeshua himself. That pretty much means "the 'Christian' way or damnation".

One might say that doing good deeds is accepting "God" in your heart, regardless of how you worship.Which god of them? And since when does doing good deed have anything to do with any god? This has more to do with reason, does it not?

What do you guys think?

I don't believe in hell...

...tell them your a Pastafarian. :p

Well, with regard to Judaism, we do not preach damnation in any form. In fact, there is no hell in Judaism. We say the righteous of every nation and religion go directly to paradise, and those who are unrighteous may have to spend some time in Gehinnom before they can go.So how is the slaughter of 450 priests by order of Elijah to be understood? Even if the story might have no historical accuracy, it is the expression of the Jewish view of how things should be.

If I believed in Hell, which I don't, I don't think that a "loving" God would have anything to do with it. Any more than a loving parent would condemn any of his/her children to being punished eternally just because of a disagreement. The whole concept of Hell is an invention of people who just loved the idea of watching people they disapproved of suffer.

If I believed in Hell, which I don't, I don't think that a "loving" God would have anything to do with it. Any more than a loving parent would condemn any of his/her children to being punished eternally just because of a disagreement. The whole concept of Hell is an invention of people who just loved the idea of watching people they disapproved of suffer.

Yea, but what if there's more than one Gods or Goddess?

Yea, but what if there's more than one Gods or Goddess?

One or many, male or female, the outcome is the same. Hell is a human creation, not a divine creation.

I've known 3 groups of Christians.
The first group damn you to Hell for being gay, wearing a condom, not being Christian, being non-white, being a woman, being pregnant, having sex out of marriage, disagreeing with the pope, or any other large group of things. These are the "radicals", and are also White Supremecist neo-nazi skinhead... "people"... that I personally despise entirely.

The second group are the non-loathsome ones. They're the ones that worship because they believe. As far as they can be called, they're the "good Christians". Always trying to help other people no matter what, and always there for you. Good people.

The third and final group is my family. They see every action I do as wrong, and no matter what I do I'm going to Hell. I slept in and didn't take a shower? I'm going to Hell. I was caught looking at a nice hiney? I'm going to Hell. I even went to far as to dissent with organized religion and announce my self to be athiest because of their contrived hypocritic ways? Well... I'm going to Hell.

Hmm......
I doubt religion has much to do with people outside of how they justify their actions or what they cite as the reason. A good athiest could do it because it "feels" right. A good Christian would do it because "it's what God would want". Along those same lines a "bad" Christian could kill an infant because he believed it to be gay, and a "bad" athiest could go on a slaughter-happy rampage because life has no meaning.

Everyone is a person. Religion just falls into the empty spaces.

I've known 3 groups of Christians.
The first group damn you to Hell for being gay, wearing a condom, not being Christian, being non-white, being a woman, being pregnant, having sex out of marriage, disagreeing with the pope, or any other large group of things. These are the "radicals", and are also White Supremecist neo-nazi skinhead... "people"... that I personally despise entirely.

The second group are the non-loathsome ones. They're the ones that worship because they believe. As far as they can be called, they're the "good Christians". Always trying to help other people no matter what, and always there for you. Good people.

The third and final group is my family. They see every action I do as wrong, and no matter what I do I'm going to Hell. I slept in and didn't take a shower? I'm going to Hell. I was caught looking at a nice hiney? I'm going to Hell. I even went to far as to dissent with organized religion and announce my self to be athiest because of their contrived hypocritic ways? Well... I'm going to Hell.

Hmm......
I doubt religion has much to do with people outside of how they justify their actions or what they cite as the reason. A good athiest could do it because it "feels" right. A good Christian would do it because "it's what God would want". Along those same lines a "bad" Christian could kill an infant because he believed it to be gay, and a "bad" athiest could go on a slaughter-happy rampage because life has no meaning.

Everyone is a person. Religion just falls into the empty spaces.

Yea, I have encounters with much of the first outside of the Roman Catholic denomination. The only Catholics that I've seen that fit into the first cat. are the elderly people that are not priest.

To the fundies you speak of, one of my favorite responses to the "you're going to hell" thing is:

"Well, I'm relieved to hear that, being damned to suffer forever sure beats spending eternity with people like you."

Hmmm...a choice between eternity in Hell or eternity with THEM...
I for one choose the less torturous one.

What do you guys think?

Who's Kay?

Hell is reserved for those who believe in it. The lowest and foulest part of hell isreserved for those who think their beliefs will save them from it.

I agree, I mean to me if you're a good person, and you live by the Golden Rule, and if you treat your fellow man pretty well, you'll go to Heaven. If you're a complete bastard and is the complete opposite, you'll go to Hell.

How about this--if you live by the Golden Rule and treat your fellow humans well, you'll make a heaven of this life, while if you're a complete bastard and treat others shittily, you'll make your life a hell. This life is the only one you're absolutely sure you're going to get to live, so you ought to make the most of it and let what comes afterward, if anything, take care of itself. I think Jesus was talking about living this life, not the next one, when he came up with the Golden Rule.

Who's Kay?

My Girlfriend.

Ok, so once again I am bothered by the same people who would like to "save" me, but now they've gone after Kay. Why, because she dress differently, she is a goth. So once again, I hear the same crap, saving your soul from damnation, blah blah blah. Of course they also tell Kay this which I take offense to because I don't care if they tell me this crap, I've been around it my whole life, but to tell her that she's going to Hell because she likes to be different and is agnostic is an entirely different matter. Normally I go through my usual rant that is guaranteed to get rid of any Christian fundie, then something interesting happens. He then strikes on homosexuality and tells her that they're going to Hell too. Ahh God, never tell Kay that because well, David was gay, and he was very important to her before he was killed. She went off on a rant herself and I tried very hard not to laugh.

Anyways, the point of this little story is that shortly after this, I start to wonder about Hell and what earns you a ticket to Hell. I mean Christianity doesn't own the market of "follow our faith or burn in Hell!" Islam, Judaism, and several other religion also claim that they are the correct religion and if we do not follow them, then we shall be damned to Hell. Do we even know if there's such thing as the correct way to worship God? Maybe there's not and all the different religion are just different path to God and to Heaven.

I mean why would God, who I believe is kind and loving, would damn 2/3rd of mankind just because they didn't choose Christianity as their religion? I mean sure anyone can read the Bible and say that they are the correct one, but I like to think for myself, and after studying different religion in college, and meeting people from different religion, it just doesn't compute in my mind that God would damn 2/3rd of mankind over something as stupid as the way they worship him! I mean I don't know is Catholicism is the right faith, Hell I may be going to Hell by being Catholic, it sure seems like it from how many times I've been told that. I don't know if Catholicism is the right faith, all I know that it is right for me, and it's not right for everyone. I don't believe in damning people to Hell just because they have a different way to worship God. I don't know, I just think you'd have to do a whole lot of bad stuff/karma to earn the ticket to enteral damnation.

What do you guys think?

If there is a god, he is now banging his head slowly against a wall.

If there is a god, he is now banging his head slowly against a wall.

As is Jesus, Krishna, Allah, and EVERY other God in existence right now: :headbang:

Kay-who?
And which David are we talking about? The one in my bio class or from P.E.?

Kay is my girlfriend and David was her first true love who was gay and killed by his boyfriend, and the fundie says that even though David was a wonderful person he would still go to Hell because he was gay.

There.

Kay-who?
And which David are we talking about? The one in my bio class or from P.E.? The guy with the brown hair?

Kay is my girlfriend and David was her first true love who was gay and killed by his boyfriend, and the fundie says that even though David was a wonderful person he would still go to Hell because he was gay.

There.

Killed by his boyfriend? Ouch. My condolences to your girlfriend, however long ago this may have been.

Killed by his boyfriend? Ouch. My condolences to your girlfriend, however long ago this may have been.

Yea, and when the fundie told her that he was in Hell because he was gay, well Kay just let him have it. I love her! :D

I don't believe in hell...

...tell them your a Pastafarian. :p

Pastafarian damnation...really really REALLY bad sauce...:p

There's actually a scientific experiment you can do to test the power of faith in different religions. Here's how to conduct it:

Take 2 religions, and select 100 people from each one. Take them all up to the top of a very tall building, and tell them to pray for God to save them, and then jump off.
Whichever religion has the most survivors wins.

If they both tie at zero, then pick another two religions and start again.

Inhumane, I know, but the results could be interesting!

Yea, and when the fundie told her that he was in Hell because he was gay, well Kay just let him have it. I love her! :D

I'm curious as to what she said. I generally enjoy adding new material to my repertoire of thing to say to fundies.

I'm curious as to what she said. I generally enjoy adding new material to my repertoire of thing to say to fundies.

A friend of a friend received a housecall from the Jehovah's Witnesses, who showed him a picture of Jesus. Head and shouders pic - long hair, wise looking - you know the kind of thing.
He told them: 'Wait here a second,' and disappeared into the house.
He came back with a book of art by William Blake, including a picture of the painting 'The Ancient of Days.'

[I've just found it online, have a look]
http://www.b-link.co.uk/ckn/famouspaintings/blake/ancient2.jpg

He showed them the picture: 'Look, you've brought a picture of Jesus for me, here's a picture of God for you.'
Then he added: 'You can see the family resemblance, can't you?'

In truth, we are not subject to many fundies here in England. The odd fruit-loop in majo conurbations, but beyond that, nothing. However, Jehova's Witnesses who call at obscenely early hours, and claim my hangover is evidence of my being sinful have a special place in my well of hatred.

In truth, we are not subject to many fundies here in England. The odd fruit-loop in majo conurbations, but beyond that, nothing. However, Jehova's Witnesses who call at obscenely early hours, and claim my hangover is evidence of my being sinful have a special place in my well of hatred.

We do have Winner or (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Howard_%28preacher%29)Sinner guy (http://www.b3ta.com/interview/winnerorsinner/) though.

To the fundies you speak of, one of my favorite responses to the "you're going to hell" thing is:

"Well, I'm relieved to hear that, being damned to suffer forever sure beats spending eternity with people like you."

My usual answer is somewhere along the lines of, "At least I'm humble enough to recognize God decides that -- not you."

There's actually a scientific experiment you can do to test the power of faith in different religions. Here's how to conduct it:

Take 2 religions, and select 100 people from each one. Take them all up to the top of a very tall building, and tell them to pray for God to save them, and then jump off.
Whichever religion has the most survivors wins.

If they both tie at zero, then pick another two religions and start again.

Inhumane, I know, but the results could be interesting!

{5} Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. {6} "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written: "'He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'" {7} Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"

:p

I think life would be so much easier without religion.

I think life would be so much easier without religion.

It would but life isn't meant to be easy now is it? :(

It would but life isn't meant to be easy now is it? :(

Are you saying that your God has created life, just to fuck with us? *twitch*

Are you saying that your God has created life, just to fuck with us? *twitch*

Didn't God tell Adam that he was going to make his life difficult? So it seems He created us then wiped his hands on everything after. Figures, eh?

Didn't God tell Adam that he was going to make his life difficult? So it seems He created us then wiped his hands on everything after. Figures, eh?

God sucks. :mad:

Ok, so once again I am bothered by the same people who would like to "save" me, but now they've gone after Kay. Why, because she dress differently, she is a goth. So once again, I hear the same crap, saving your soul from damnation, blah blah blah. Of course they also tell Kay this which I take offense to because I don't care if they tell me this crap, I've been around it my whole life, but to tell her that she's going to Hell because she likes to be different and is agnostic is an entirely different matter. Normally I go through my usual rant that is guaranteed to get rid of any Christian fundie, then something interesting happens. He then strikes on homosexuality and tells her that they're going to Hell too. Ahh God, never tell Kay that because well, David was gay, and he was very important to her before he was killed. She went off on a rant herself and I tried very hard not to laugh.

Anyways, the point of this little story is that shortly after this, I start to wonder about Hell and what earns you a ticket to Hell. I mean Christianity doesn't own the market of "follow our faith or burn in Hell!" Islam, Judaism, and several other religion also claim that they are the correct religion and if we do not follow them, then we shall be damned to Hell. Do we even know if there's such thing as the correct way to worship God? Maybe there's not and all the different religion are just different path to God and to Heaven.

I mean why would God, who I believe is kind and loving, would damn 2/3rd of mankind just because they didn't choose Christianity as their religion? I mean sure anyone can read the Bible and say that they are the correct one, but I like to think for myself, and after studying different religion in college, and meeting people from different religion, it just doesn't compute in my mind that God would damn 2/3rd of mankind over something as stupid as the way they worship him! I mean I don't know is Catholicism is the right faith, Hell I may be going to Hell by being Catholic, it sure seems like it from how many times I've been told that. I don't know if Catholicism is the right faith, all I know that it is right for me, and it's not right for everyone. I don't believe in damning people to Hell just because they have a different way to worship God. I don't know, I just think you'd have to do a whole lot of bad stuff/karma to earn the ticket to enteral damnation.

What do you guys think?

God gave man the truth, man misinterpreted and had different views on the truth and began fighting each other because of it. Just whole-heartedly ask God for guidance and He will give it to you.

God sucks. :mad:

Easier to believe he doesn't exist.

Or you could take comfort in the knowledge that everything that occurs is part of his grand plan. :)

Easier to believe he doesn't exist.

Or you could take comfort in the knowledge that everything that occurs is part of his grand plan. :)

*considers*

Hmm..

There really is no God!

Ok, so once again I am bothered by the same people who would like to "save" me, but now they've gone after Kay. Why, because she dress differently, she is a goth. So once again, I hear the same crap, saving your soul from damnation, blah blah blah. Of course they also tell Kay this which I take offense to because I don't care if they tell me this crap, I've been around it my whole life, but to tell her that she's going to Hell because she likes to be different and is agnostic is an entirely different matter. Normally I go through my usual rant that is guaranteed to get rid of any Christian fundie, then something interesting happens. He then strikes on homosexuality and tells her that they're going to Hell too. Ahh God, never tell Kay that because well, David was gay, and he was very important to her before he was killed. She went off on a rant herself and I tried very hard not to laugh.

Anyways, the point of this little story is that shortly after this, I start to wonder about Hell and what earns you a ticket to Hell. I mean Christianity doesn't own the market of "follow our faith or burn in Hell!" Islam, Judaism, and several other religion also claim that they are the correct religion and if we do not follow them, then we shall be damned to Hell. Do we even know if there's such thing as the correct way to worship God? Maybe there's not and all the different religion are just different path to God and to Heaven.

I mean why would God, who I believe is kind and loving, would damn 2/3rd of mankind just because they didn't choose Christianity as their religion? I mean sure anyone can read the Bible and say that they are the correct one, but I like to think for myself, and after studying different religion in college, and meeting people from different religion, it just doesn't compute in my mind that God would damn 2/3rd of mankind over something as stupid as the way they worship him! I mean I don't know is Catholicism is the right faith, Hell I may be going to Hell by being Catholic, it sure seems like it from how many times I've been told that. I don't know if Catholicism is the right faith, all I know that it is right for me, and it's not right for everyone. I don't believe in damning people to Hell just because they have a different way to worship God. I don't know, I just think you'd have to do a whole lot of bad stuff/karma to earn the ticket to enteral damnation.

What do you guys think?

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Ok, so once again I am bothered by the same people who would like to "save" me, but now they've gone after Kay. Why, because she dress differently, she is a goth. So once again, I hear the same crap, saving your soul from damnation, blah blah blah. Of course they also tell Kay this which I take offense to because I don't care if they tell me this crap, I've been around it my whole life, but to tell her that she's going to Hell because she likes to be different and is agnostic is an entirely different matter. Normally I go through my usual rant that is guaranteed to get rid of any Christian fundie, then something interesting happens. He then strikes on homosexuality and tells her that they're going to Hell too. Ahh God, never tell Kay that because well, David was gay, and he was very important to her before he was killed. She went off on a rant herself and I tried very hard not to laugh.
it's best to ask people like that to pray for you......they will either do so and leave you alone, or they will get offended and leave you alone.

Anyways, the point of this little story is that shortly after this, I start to wonder about Hell and what earns you a ticket to Hell. I mean Christianity doesn't own the market of "follow our faith or burn in Hell!" Islam, Judaism, and several other religion also claim that they are the correct religion and if we do not follow them, then we shall be damned to Hell. Do we even know if there's such thing as the correct way to worship God? Maybe there's not and all the different religion are just different path to God and to Heaven.

nobody knows, you just gotta go with what you believe.

I mean why would God, who I believe is kind and loving, would damn 2/3rd of mankind just because they didn't choose Christianity as their religion? I mean sure anyone can read the Bible and say that they are the correct one, but I like to think for myself, and after studying different religion in college, and meeting people from different religion, it just doesn't compute in my mind that God would damn 2/3rd of mankind over something as stupid as the way they worship him!
we don't understand because we can't understand.



I mean I don't know is Catholicism is the right faith, Hell I may be going to Hell by being Catholic, it sure seems like it from how many times I've been told that. I don't know if Catholicism is the right faith, all I know that it is right for me, and it's not right for everyone. I don't believe in damning people to Hell just because they have a different way to worship God. I don't know, I just think you'd have to do a whole lot of bad stuff/karma to earn the ticket to enteral damnation.
which isn't exactly the Catholic line, maybe you should convert to something else.

What do you guys think?
that you aren't going to get much help from NS General because most of them don't care, and the ones who feign interest are just screwing with you (except for me of course, I do care, but I can't answer your questions)

Islam, Judaism, and several other religion also claim that they are the correct religion and if we do not follow them, then we shall be damned to Hell.

How about you learn about judaism before talking about it? Because you know what? You just came across every bit as ignorant as the person you're attacking.

Kay is my girlfriend and David was her first true love who was gay and killed by his boyfriend, and the fundie says that even though David was a wonderful person he would still go to Hell because he was gay.

There.

Put this question to him then. If you believe in all that crap he spouts, and then proceed to pluck his eyes out, stab his groin, will you still go to heaven?

How about you learn about judaism before talking about it? Because you know what? You just came across every bit as ignorant as the person you're attacking.

in fact, to expand on my own idea. Christianity does often have the belief of "believe what we believe or burn in hell" so of course christianity makes great efforts to convert people to christianity. Judaism doesn't.

Christianity has missionaries sent all over the world. Judaism doesn't.

Christianity encourages conversion. Judaism discourages it.

Christianity will often welcome any "saved soul" into their flock. Judaism thanks you for your interest, but would really rather you didn't.

Judaism discourages it.

Christianity will often welcome any "saved soul" into their flock. Judaism thanks you for your interest, but would really rather you didn't.
why?

why?
It's generally assumed in Judaism that any potential convert would rather have a copy of the seven noahide laws (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Noahide_Laws), just because they're easier and achieve more-or-less the same goal.

Also, Judaism generally likes to keep to itself.

we don't want converts unless they're really REALLY serious about their conversion. Traditionally anyone seeking conversion is turned away at least once.

HAH! Hinduism has you beat. You CAN'T convert to Hinduism. Period. End of story. Goodbye and try some other religion, and thank yuh sir. :cool:

why?

Judaism generally does not want people to convert unless they really REALLY want to. Traditionally anyone seeking conversion is first turned away, to determine if they are serious.

Jews generally look at conversion disfavorably and assume that people seeking conversion are not truly serious about joining the faith. Someone must first demonstrate they have a jewish "neshama" (a jewish soul) before being allowed.

The idea is, we don't want anyone who simply wants to become jewish. We only want those who believe that deep down they are jewish already, but just born into the wrong faith.

How about you learn about judaism before talking about it? Because you know what? You just came across every bit as ignorant as the person you're attacking.

Sorry for any insult that I have my caused, and I was corrected about page 2. Sorry about that. *red faced of embarrassment*

It's generally assumed in Judaism that any potential convert would rather have a copy of the seven noahide laws (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Noahide_Laws), just because they're easier and achieve more-or-less the same goal.

Also, Judaism generally likes to keep to itself.
interesting. I think I may have broken a few of those laws. :(

Judaism generally does not want people to convert unless they really REALLY want to. Traditionally anyone seeking conversion is first turned away, to determine if they are serious.

Jews generally look at conversion disfavorably and assume that people seeking conversion are not truly serious about joining the faith. Someone must first demonstrate they have a jewish "neshama" (a jewish soul) before being allowed.

The idea is, we don't want anyone who simply wants to become jewish. We only want those who believe that deep down they are jewish already, but just born into the wrong faith.

wow, that's totally something new, thanks for informing me! I feel more knowledgeable. :)

God gave man the truth, man misinterpreted and had different views on the truth and began fighting each other because of it. Just whole-heartedly ask God for guidance and He will give it to you.

You should do stand up comedy, genuinely, you'd be a riotous hit.

How did God give us the truth, unless you make allusion to the sense of empathy and conscience inherent to all humans, which, I daresay, you don't.

I think, despite their wierdness, annoyingness and occassional unpleasantness, the Jo Ho's have got that whole heaven/hell thing right. What with the no hell and the perfected humanity thing.

Trilby63;12388651']I think, despite their wierdness, annoyingness and occassional unpleasantness, the Jo Ho's have got that whole heaven/hell thing right. What with the no hell and the perfected humanity thing.

What the heck is a Jo Ho?

What the heck is a Jo Ho?

Hmm? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephine_Ho)

we don't understand because we can't understand. yes, small minds tend to think that :rolleyes:

in the unlikely even that there IS a supreme being, one might want to assess his impact on the entirety of humanity, not just christians.

are you really willing to believe that god only intended salvation for a small group of humans known as "jews" who were his "chosen people" for millennia and then were precipitously dumped when they refused to believe in a messiah who, unlike what they were told by their prophets, turned out to be the son of god made man?

are you really willing to believe that the vast majority of humans are willingly left unenlightened by god? that they received NO contact from this supreme being but were left in the dark to live and die in religious ignorance unless some intrepid missionary should manage to come to them and tell them the "good news" in a manner that was meaningful to them?

i would suggest that one should reject those notions as being too ethnocentric for the creator of all humanity to hold. that one might be better served to look at the commonalities in all religions. perhaps instead of needing to slavishly follow some set of rules that may or may not represent the will of god, we need to be kind to each other, to have some self discipline, to acknowlege the spiritual side of our nature and to encourage others do to the same. maybe for you that its best done by being a catholic; maybe for others its best done by being a hindu.

if god had strict rules for the way he wanted people to worship him, wouldnt he have spelled it out to all people in all times so that we wouldnt be left to guess what is right?

What the heck is a Jo Ho?

Sorry. Jehova's Witness.

in the unlikely even that there IS a supreme being, one might want to assess his impact on the entirety of humanity, not just christians.

are you really willing to believe that god only intended salvation for a small group of humans known as "jews" who were his "chosen people" for millennia and then were precipitously dumped when they refused to believe in a messiah who, unlike what they were told by their prophets, turned out to be the son of god made man?

are you really willing to believe that the vast majority of humans are willingly left unenlightened by god? that they received NO contact from this supreme being but were left in the dark to live and die in religious ignorance unless some intrepid missionary should manage to come to them and tell them the "good news" in a manner that was meaningful to them?

i would suggest that one should reject those notions as being too ethnocentric for the creator of all humanity to hold. that one might be better served to look at the commonalities in all religions. perhaps instead of needing to slavishly follow some set of rules that may or may not represent the will of god, we need to be kind to each other, to have some self discipline, to acknowlege the spiritual side of our nature and to encourage others do to the same. maybe for you that its best done by being a catholic; maybe for others its best done by being a hindu.

if god had strict rules for the way he wanted people to worship him, wouldnt he have spelled it out to all people in all times so that we wouldnt be left to guess what is right?

I don't normally do this, but...:fluffle:

Trilby63;12389508']Sorry. Jehova's Witness.

Well then you're wrong. The entire concept of Heaven to Jehovah's Witnesses is an exclusive club where only a specific number (144,000) get into the "VIP" area of Heaven, and everyone else gets resurrected on earth.

However, when I say everyone else, I mean Other Jehovah's Witnesses. Meaning that the real Everyone Else ends up being cast into oblivion (in this sense, never resurrected.) Which in my opinion IS Hell, if one exists.

Well then you're wrong. The entire concept of Heaven to Jehovah's Witnesses is an exclusive club where only a specific number (144,000) get into the "VIP" area of Heaven, and everyone else gets resurrected on earth.

However, when I say everyone else, I mean Other Jehovah's Witnesses. Meaning that the real Everyone Else ends up being cast into oblivion (in this sense, never resurrected.) Which in my opinion IS Hell, if one exists.

Really? I consider eternal life to be hell.

Trilby63;12389543']Really? I consider eternal life to be hell.

One man's Heaven can be another man's Hell.

in the unlikely even that there IS a supreme being, one might want to assess his impact on the entirety of humanity, not just christians.

are you really willing to believe that god only intended salvation for a small group of humans known as "jews" who were his "chosen people" for millennia and then were precipitously dumped when they refused to believe in a messiah who, unlike what they were told by their prophets, turned out to be the son of god made man?

are you really willing to believe that the vast majority of humans are willingly left unenlightened by god? that they received NO contact from this supreme being but were left in the dark to live and die in religious ignorance unless some intrepid missionary should manage to come to them and tell them the "good news" in a manner that was meaningful to them?

i would suggest that one should reject those notions as being too ethnocentric for the creator of all humanity to hold. that one might be better served to look at the commonalities in all religions. perhaps instead of needing to slavishly follow some set of rules that may or may not represent the will of god, we need to be kind to each other, to have some self discipline, to acknowlege the spiritual side of our nature and to encourage others do to the same. maybe for you that its best done by being a catholic; maybe for others its best done by being a hindu.

if god had strict rules for the way he wanted people to worship him, wouldnt he have spelled it out to all people in all times so that we wouldnt be left to guess what is right?

You win the thread. No buts.

I think life would be so much easier without religion.
wouldn't life lose its meaning and purpose then? What would be the point of working, going through stressful things, etc. if there's no point?
Are you saying that your God has created life, just to fuck with us? *twitch*

we were created to worship Allah swt, he didnt do it to mess with us.

wouldn't life lose its meaning and purpose then? What would be the point of working, going through stressful things, etc. if there's no point?


we were created to worship Allah swt, he didnt do it to mess with us.

We were created for the purpose of worshipping the entity who created us? Doesn't that make God a HUGE Narcissist?

wouldn't life lose its meaning and purpose then? What would be the point of working, going through stressful things, etc. if there's no point?


we were created to worship Allah swt, he didnt do it to mess with us.

Created to worship? What's the point in that?

One man's Heaven can be another man's Hell.

I'm quite looking forward to oblivion. It'll be like a big sleep only without the waking up which is the worse part of sleep. They'll be no dreams either which is cool since I have a recurring dream that I'm Jeremy Clarkson. It's not pleasant.

wouldn't life lose its meaning and purpose then? What would be the point of working, going through stressful things, etc. if there's no point?

Because work allows me to get nice shiny things to play with and amuse myself with.

What else?

Because work allows me to get nice shiny things to play with and amuse myself with.

What else?

I love shiny things.

Trilby63;12389878']I'm quite looking forward to oblivion. It'll be like a big sleep only without the waking up which is the worse part of sleep. They'll be no dreams either which is cool since I have a recurring dream that I'm Jeremy Clarkson. It's not pleasant.

It's a complete loss of identity and the self-hood I've spent a lifetime (albeit a presently fairly short lifetime) building.

I'd honestly rather burn for etenity.

We were created for the purpose of worshipping the entity who created us? Doesn't that make God a HUGE Narcissist?

Not only to worship but to enjoy the things in this world Allah has made halaal.

Not only to worship but to enjoy the things this world Allah has made halaal.

Ok, I can see that.

wouldn't life lose its meaning and purpose then? What would be the point of working, going through stressful things, etc. if there's no point?


we were created to worship Allah swt, he didnt do it to mess with us.
Sorry, Soviestan if this sounds insulting to you, I do not mean it, but this argument lets me wonder what kind of light that puts on Him. what kind of being would create beings just so they worship it/him/her?

I am very interested in the different religions and their beliefs, so please enlighten me.

yes, small minds tend to think that :rolleyes:

closed minds tend to insult other people's intelligence when presented with an idea they can't seem to force themselves to consider.

Not only to worship but to enjoy the things in this world Allah has made halaal.

Bah! Your God hates both bikinis and sodomy! I ask you, what left is there to enjoy!?

closed minds tend to insult other people's intelligence when presented with an idea they can't seem to force themselves to consider.Oh, I once considered it but discarded it a long time ago when I looked deeper into the subject. My mind is indeed closed to empty concepts, such as faith in a deity that was invented by fanatics. The idea you refer to is just that. An idea. A false creation having proceeded from the brains of those who so desperately wanted and still want to be important. I have every reason to question the supposed intelligence of those adhering to biblical teachings.

I don't normally do this, but...:fluffle:

You win the thread. No buts.

thank you!

thank you!

No problem.

thank you!

No problem at all.

This does not compute: an unbeliever who actually worries what Christians believe.

This does not compute: an unbeliever who actually worries what Christians believe.

I worry what Christians believe, largely because I to keep tabs on how quickly the "day I leave the US a day or two ahead of the Christian Right Inquisition" is approaching.

I worry what Christians believe, largely because I to keep tabs on how quickly the "day I leave the US a day or two ahead of the Christian Right Inquisition" is approaching.

Or when I can lead the ensuing revolution.

This is a selection from Gotthold Ephraim Lessings drama Nathan der Weise, commonly referred to as the Three Ring Parable. It is considered to be very representative of a key piece of enlightenment era thought, and I rather enjoy it, and agree with the message.

An uneasy peace ruled in Jerusalem. Saladin's victory against the Crusaders had cost the Muslims dearly, both in the loss of troops and in the depletion of the royal treasury. Saladin was resolved to rule with civilized humanity as far as possible. But it was an uneasy peace, with Jews, Christians, and the newly victorious Muslims all suspicious of one another.

Thus when Saladin requested an audience with Nathan, a leading Jewish merchant, the latter was very apprehensive about the Sultan's motivation. Nathan was known far and wide not only for his successes in commerce, but also for his skills in diplomacy and negotiation. Jews, Christians, and Muslims alike called him Nathan the Wise.

Nathan's suspicions were well founded, for Saladin was indeed looking to replenish his exhausted coffers with a loan or a gift from his wealthy Jewish subject. Too civil to openly demand such a tribute from the peace-loving Nathan, the Sultan instead masked his request in the form of a theological question.

"Your reputation for wisdom is great," said the Sultan. "You must have studied the great religions. Tell me, which is the best, Judaism, Islam, or Christianity?"

"Sultan, I am a Jew," replied Nathan.

"And I a Muslim," interrupted Saladin, "and between us stands the Christian. But the three faiths contradict one another. They cannot all be true. Tell me the results of your own wise deliberations. Which religion is best?"

Nathan recognized the trap at once. Any answer except "Islam" would offend Saladin the Muslim, whereas any answer except "Judaism" would place his own integrity under question. Thus, instead of giving a direct answer, Nathan responded by relating a parable to Saladin:

In the Orient in ancient times there lived a man who possessed a ring of inestimable worth. Its stone was an opal that emitted a hundred colors, but its real value lay in its ability to make its wearer beloved of God and man. The ring passed from father to most favored son for many generations, until finally its owner was a father with three sons, all equally deserving. Unable to decide which of the three sons was most worthy, the father commissioned a master artisan to make two exact copies of the ring, then gave each son a ring, and each son believed that he alone had inherited the original and true ring.

But instead of harmony, the father's plan brought only discord to his heirs. Shortly after the father died, each of the sons claimed to be the sole ruler of the father's house, each basing his claim to authority on the ring given to him by the father. The discord grew even stronger and more hateful when a close examination of the rings failed to disclose any differences.

"But wait," interrupted Saladin, "surely you do not mean to tell me that there are no differences between Islam, Judaism, and Christianity!"

"You are right, Sultan," replied Nathan. "Their teachings and practices differ in ways that can be seen by all. However, in each case, the teachings and practices are based on beliefs and faith, beliefs and faith that at their roots are the same. Which of us can prove that our beliefs and our faith are more reliable than those of others?"

"I understand," said Saladin. "Now continue with your tale."

"The story is nearly at its end," replied Nathan.

The dispute among the brothers grew until their case was finally brought before a judge. After hearing the history of the original ring and its miraculous powers, the judge pronounced his conclusion: "The authentic ring," he said, "had the power to make its owner beloved of God and man, but each of your rings has brought only hatred and strife. None of you is loved by others; each loves only himself. Therefore I must conclude that none of you has the original ring. Your father must have lost it, then attempted to hide his loss by having three counterfeit rings made, and these are the rings that cause you so much grief."

The judge continued: "Or it may be that your father, weary of the tyranny of a single ring, made duplicates, which he gave to you. Let each of you demonstrate his belief in the power of his ring by conducting his life in such a manner that he fully merits -- as anciently promised -- the love of God and man.

"Marvelous! Marvelous!" exclaimed Saladin. "Your tale has set my mind at rest. You may go."

"Sultan, was there nothing else you wished from me?" asked Nathan.

"No. Nothing."

"Then may I take the liberty to make a request of you. My trade of late has brought me unexpected wealth, and in these uncertain times I need a secure repository. Would you be willing to accept my recent earnings as loan or deposit?"

The Sultan gladly acceded to Nathan's wish.

And thus Saladin gained from his wise Jewish subject both material and spiritual benefit, and Nathan the Wise found a safe haven for his wealth and earned the respect of the Islamic Sultan.