NationStates Jolt Archive

ZOMG! (http://calitreview.com/Interviews/clegg_8029.htm)

“[Quantum] entanglement is a strange feature of quantum physics, the science of the very small. It’s possible to link together two quantum particles – photons of light or atoms, for example – in a special way that makes them effectively two parts of the same entity. You can then separate them as far as you like, and a change in one is instantly reflected in the other. This odd, faster than light link, is a fundamental aspect of quantum science”

I know this is fairly old hat in the physics community, but I only found out about this brain-melting concept the other day. I thought I’d share my new favourite scientific phenomenon. What’s so fascinating is that the entangled particles react at exactly the same time.


What’s your favourite spiffingly cool scientific concept?

ZOMG! (http://calitreview.com/Interviews/clegg_8029.htm)

“[Quantum] entanglement is a strange feature of quantum physics, the science of the very small. It’s possible to link together two quantum particles – photons of light or atoms, for example – in a special way that makes them effectively two parts of the same entity. You can then separate them as far as you like, and a change in one is instantly reflected in the other. This odd, faster than light link, is a fundamental aspect of quantum science”

I know this is fairly old hat in the physics community, but I only found out about this brain-melting concept the other day. I thought I’d share my new favourite scientific phenomenon. What’s so fascinating is that the entangled particles react at exactly the same time.


What’s your favourite spiffingly cool scientific concept?

Quantum foam. *nod*

Quantum foam. *nod*
Foam that bubbles at two separate places in space, at exactly the same time? You pop a bubble, and one more appears at the other set of foam? :eek:

Now, that’s got some clowning potential!

Higher dimensions. It's so strange to think that there are other directions just as normal and basic as forward and backward, yet as invisible and inconceivable to us as up and down would be to a two-dimensional creature.

What’s your favourite spiffingly cool scientific concept?
If physics give me a headache, I take an aspirin and stop thinking about it. :)

What’s your favourite spiffingly cool scientific concept?

introgression

science speak for inter-species fucking that results in genes from one winding up fixed in the population of the other.

ZOMG! (http://calitreview.com/Interviews/clegg_8029.htm)

“[Quantum] entanglement is a strange feature of quantum physics, the science of the very small. It’s possible to link together two quantum particles – photons of light or atoms, for example – in a special way that makes them effectively two parts of the same entity. You can then separate them as far as you like, and a change in one is instantly reflected in the other. This odd, faster than light link, is a fundamental aspect of quantum science”

I know this is fairly old hat in the physics community, but I only found out about this brain-melting concept the other day. I thought I’d share my new favourite scientific phenomenon. What’s so fascinating is that the entangled particles react at exactly the same time.


What’s your favourite spiffingly cool scientific concept?

Waves and particles. And consequently, Schroedinger's Cat. It's a wave as long as its not observed, a particle once it is...

Quantum foam. *nod*

Quondom phone...makes me roam...

:D

I love Michael Crichton.

Gravitoelectromagnetism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitoelectromagnetism)! :D

introgression

science speak for inter-species fucking that results in genes from one winding up fixed in the population of the other.
I thought the whole definition of a species is that it couldn’t procreate with something outside its species grouping?

*researches*

Waves and particles. And consequently, Schroedinger's Cat. It's a wave as long as its not observed, a particle once it is...

erm, not exactly. It's more appropriate to say that is something that has qualities of both a wave and a particle. Which is to say, that if you test it to be a wave, it's a wave, and if you test it to be a particle, it's a particle.

Shroedinger's cat theory wasn't so much that it's a wave until you observe it, but rather its state was indeterminate.

Quondom phone...makes me roam...

:D

I love Michael Crichton.

freakiest book. Movie sucked though.

I thought the whole definition of a species is that it couldn’t procreate with something outside its species grouping?

*researches*

yeah, the biological species concept has never worked very well. like at all. it runs into problems with asexual reproduction, and it only gets worse from there.

Quantum tunneling seemed pretty interesting. That at one instant an electron could be in proximity to a nucleus, and that the next there was a slim probability that it could be on the other side of the universe.

Apparently it is now believed that the mechanism by which enzymes work could be quantum tunneling.

freakiest book. Movie sucked though.

I think that was the first movie I actually ever fell asleep in. The book was so good, but the movie... blah.

And back to the original topic... its like a quantum voodoo doll. You stick a pin in one atom, the other gets a hole... weird.

Am I the only one who thought FTL communications?

Trans-humanism, the idea that the human body can be improved through the use of technology.

Trans-humanism, the idea that the human body can be improved through the use of technology.
Oooh, Ghost In The Shell style.

Me likey.

Am I the only one who thought FTL communications?

The nature of quantum entanglement forbids that.

Waves and particles. And consequently, Schroedinger's Cat. It's a wave as long as its not observed, a particle once it is...

Not quite.

What you're thinking of is the collision distribution of photons through a pair of double-slits. Basically the bimodal distribution you'd expect from particles going particles going through the slit ends up not happening and you get a fairly "wave-like" distribution of particles, with alternating areas of particle and non-particle.

The physics of it is explained in the particle-wave duality, yes, but not quite in the way that you're thinking. We "observe" photons as both particles and waves in differing circumstances.

However, when look at the double-slit experiment, the quantum mechanics of it dictates that the photon has a wave function associated with it. When the photon goes through the double-slit, it's quantum nature causes it to interfere with its own motion. This interference causes the motion of the particle to change until it hits the surface you're observing, resulting in a collapse of its waveform into the distribution you see. It's true that, were you to attempt to detect the photon earlier in its transition, you would see a standard distribution associated with a particle moving through two slits, but this actually has to do with a premature collapse of its waveform by your observation. Wavelike properties are still observable though.


My favorite physicsy thing is personally the Holographic Principle. Because it's just f-ing mindblowing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_principle

The nature of quantum entanglement forbids that.

Why if the change takes place quicker than the speed of light couldn't they use a type of morse code where doing this would be that letter and doing that would be that letter. Or is the problem that they couldn't be streched that far?

Oh and I second the posthuman statment.

Why if the change takes place quicker than the speed of light couldn't they use a type of morse code where doing this would be that letter and doing that would be that letter. Or is the problem that they couldn't be streched that far?

The "faster than light" effect of quantum entanglement is limited to the quantum objects themselves. As an example, two electrons in the same quantum state around the nucleus of an atom are restricted by the Pauli exclusion principle to be in two different spin states at the time. If one is spin up, the other MUST be spin down. This holds even if the electrons are separated by a significant (within this frame of reference) distance, provided they are still in the same quantum energy state.

This is a major asset in quantum computing if you can make use of the differences in spin to hold "data". By allowing, say, making a spin down a 0 and a spin up a 1, you could process at an IMMENSELY faster speed than our current technology allows us to.

However, the "communication" from quantum entanglement between two same-state objects at significant distances does not allow you to transfer matter or energy, by their very nature. This means that, even if you could affect the state of an atom, photon, or electron at an appreciable distance away, you couldn't actually transmit any information back and forth. So yes, theoretically you could have a "morse code" back and forth of spin ups and spin downs (using my example) but without some method of deciphering them on both sides, it's a useless exercise.

This is a major asset quantum computing if you can make use of the differences in spin to hold "data".
...
This means that, even if you could affect the state of an atom, photon, or electron at an appreciable distance away, you couldn't actually transmit any information back and forth.

how can both these statements be true?

My favorite physicsy thing is personally the Holographic Principle. Because it’s just f-ing mindblowing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_principle
One of my flatmates is obsessed with the holographic paradigm, following on from the holographic principle. Listens to/reads a lot of Terrence McKenna and Robert Anton Wilson, takes a lot of LSD.

One of my flatmates is obsessed with the holographic paradigm, following on from the holographic principle. Listens to/reads a lot of Terrence McKenna and Robert Anton Wilson, takes a lot of LSD.

You people can still get real LSD in Scotland? DAMN. The "acid" we have here is just cheap knockoff crap.

how can both these statements be true?

A single particle can hold data, but two entangled particles cannot transmit information faster than light.

You people can still get real LSD in Scotland? DAMN. The “acid” we have here is just cheap knockoff crap.
Bottle, tab or sugar cube? ;)

I’m sure you’re just not talking to the right people yet.

A single particle can hold data, but two entangled particles cannot transmit information faster than light.
But if whatever happens to one particle, the opposite happens to the entangled particle, surely any ‘data’ held on one particle would show up as ‘opposite data’ on the other, IYSWIM?

Bottle, tab or sugar cube? ;)

I’m sure you’re just not talking to the right people yet.

Sugar cube. And I'd heard from several sources that real LSD wasn't being produced anywhere anymore. That the acid people were using was a knockoff of some sort.

Sugar cube. And I’d heard from several sources that real LSD wasn’t being produced anywhere anymore. That the acid people were using was a knockoff of some sort.
I’m not too sure if LSD-25 is being produced from ergot any more, but it’d be impossible to prove either way. Anyway, as LSD is a semisynthetic drug, there’s more than one way to produce it.

As far as I’m aware, you can still get the real deal.

I’m not too sure if LSD-25 is being produced from ergot any more, but it’d be impossible to prove either way. Anyway, as LSD is a semisynthetic drug, there’s more than one way to produce it.

As far as I’m aware, you can still get the real deal.

Awesome

The nature of quantum entanglement forbids that.

Care to explain?

Care to explain?

I already did. Check my pre-LSD sidetrack posts.

However, the "communication" from quantum entanglement between two same-state objects at significant distances does not allow you to transfer matter or energy, by their very nature. This means that, even if you could affect the state of an atom, photon, or electron at an appreciable distance away, you couldn't actually transmit any information back and forth. So yes, theoretically you could have a "morse code" back and forth of spin ups and spin downs (using my example) but without some method of deciphering them on both sides, it's a useless exercise.

So, FTL communication is possible, but it would require the use of the spin states rather than actually sending electrons like we do via conventional communications. Obviously, the use of spin is better suited to computation than it is to communication, but given the massive amount of computing power that QCs can tap, it's definitely still a very useful tool.

Couldn't we use binary and send information FTL that could be translated by computers in to meaningful data?

So, FTL communication is possible, but it would require the use of the spin states rather than actually sending electrons like we do via conventional communications. Obviously, the use of spin is better suited to computation than it is to communication, but given the massive amount of computing power that QCs can tap, it's definitely still a very useful tool.

Couldn't we use binary and send information FTL that could be translated by computers in to meaningful data?

In a word, yes. If we can get fully operational Quantum Computers, the science of rapid communication between two disparate systems through the use of spin state-binary is more than feasible.

Of course, that's if we can get fully operational QCs.

ZOMG! (http://calitreview.com/Interviews/clegg_8029.htm)

“[Quantum] entanglement is a strange feature of quantum physics, the science of the very small. It’s possible to link together two quantum particles – photons of light or atoms, for example – in a special way that makes them effectively two parts of the same entity. You can then separate them as far as you like, and a change in one is instantly reflected in the other. This odd, faster than light link, is a fundamental aspect of quantum science”

I know this is fairly old hat in the physics community, but I only found out about this brain-melting concept the other day. I thought I’d share my new favourite scientific phenomenon. What’s so fascinating is that the entangled particles react at exactly the same time.


What’s your favourite spiffingly cool scientific concept?

The entanglement is a consequence of the EPR paradox... the problem is, it seems that there is some loss of correlation at long range.
The "change this and the other changes too" isn't quite exact. It is more a "measure this quantity, and you already know what the other particle's value will be".

The physical thingie that puzzles me the most is...
the equivalence between gravitational mass (that is, the "charge" of the gravitation force) and inertial mass (the mass in Newton's law). Why do they have to have the same value? I wonder. Looks like inertia and gravitation are closely linked, but why? Why doesn't this happen with the other 3 fundamental forces (electromagnetism, weak and strong nuclear interaction)?
Afaik, even general relativity somehow fails to explain that.

science won't be cool til i can teleport at will.

The Infinite Hotel makes for all kinds of fun. Apart from the infinite taxes :(

Why if the change takes place quicker than the speed of light couldn't they use a type of morse code where doing this would be that letter and doing that would be that letter. Or is the problem that they couldn't be streched that far?

Oh and I second the posthuman statment.

Because we can't alter the spin, we can only measure it. *nod*

So, FTL communication is possible, but it would require the use of the spin states rather than actually sending electrons like we do via conventional communications. Obviously, the use of spin is better suited to computation than it is to communication, but given the massive amount of computing power that QCs can tap, it's definitely still a very useful tool.

Couldn't we use binary and send information FTL that could be translated by computers in to meaningful data?

No. At least, not without a massive leap forward in understanding.

Think about entanglement like this:

You have two particles that always act identically. If one changes, the other changes. If you try to change them, they change in identical ways and instantaneously. Even at tremendous distances.

However, if separated, and you only try to change one, it won't change. But both particles will still change on their own in an identical fashion, regardless of distance.

Care to explain?

I think observing the particle destroys the entanglement. I can't quite remember.

Not quite.

What you're thinking of is the collision distribution of photons through a pair of double-slits. Basically the bimodal distribution you'd expect from particles going particles going through the slit ends up not happening and you get a fairly "wave-like" distribution of particles, with alternating areas of particle and non-particle.

The physics of it is explained in the particle-wave duality, yes, but not quite in the way that you're thinking. We "observe" photons as both particles and waves in differing circumstances.

However, when look at the double-slit experiment, the quantum mechanics of it dictates that the photon has a wave function associated with it. When the photon goes through the double-slit, it's quantum nature causes it to interfere with its own motion. This interference causes the motion of the particle to change until it hits the surface you're observing, resulting in a collapse of its waveform into the distribution you see. It's true that, were you to attempt to detect the photon earlier in its transition, you would see a standard distribution associated with a particle moving through two slits, but this actually has to do with a premature collapse of its waveform by your observation. Wavelike properties are still observable though.


My favorite physicsy thing is personally the Holographic Principle. Because it's just f-ing mindblowing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_principle

Right. It seems I was oversimplifying the process, but its basically the same idea (you can't observe waves themselves, only wavelike properties).

So, FTL communication is possible, but it would require the use of the spin states rather than actually sending electrons like we do via conventional communications. Obviously, the use of spin is better suited to computation than it is to communication, but given the massive amount of computing power that QCs can tap, it's definitely still a very useful tool.

Couldn't we use binary and send information FTL that could be translated by computers in to meaningful data?

Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, observing an electron to determine it's quantum state would alter it's quantum state.

This is the crux of Shroedinger's Cat, a fun thought experiment.

But if whatever happens to one particle, the opposite happens to the entangled particle, surely any ‘data’ held on one particle would show up as ‘opposite data’ on the other, IYSWIM?

It'd show up, but we could never read it. Observing the particle would change the data. Sup Uncertainty principle.

Right. It seems I was oversimplifying the process, but its basically the same idea (you can't observe waves themselves, only wavelike properties).

You CAN observe waves, though. That's the crux of QM. You can observe light as both a wave and a particle under different circumstances.

Not just the effects.