NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070227/ap_on_re_us/gore_electric_bill

Here's your answer. The Conservative think tank and Drudge are wrong. You wanted an answer on consumption and green sources and you for them. Now say you're sorry Corny...Oh I'll be waiting for a snowball fight in hell before that happens. Anyhow, it's just gratifying to be on the side of right.

I'm posting this because:

1) It needs to be done to clear a smear that was done in This Thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=519285).

2) It proves to any skeptics that it's entirely possible to have a huge energy bill and support green energy 100%. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that if you use 100% green energy, you're also going to be supporting it more for every single one of their kilowatt you use.

I hope these guys can't ring up my power supplier and broadcast my monthly power useage to the entire world.

The smear did its ugly work, though.
The fact that most of Gore's power is sourced from green(ish) methods of production will of course sail over the heads of most people. That's the media for you. Good job he's not running for President.

Something else to note about Gore's energy usage--apparently, Gore runs two offices out of that house, so it's not like it's just him and Tipper running up that bill. It would be a better comparison if they put him up against a small business's energy usage.

The smear did its ugly work, though.
The fact that most of Gore's power is sourced from green(ish) methods of production will of course sail over the heads of most people. That's the media for you. Good job he's not running for President.

I am working to counter that smear ;) I happen to support the environment, so does this guy, so you know, I'll support him in supporting the environment.

And Nazz, the part about running two offices from that place is interesting. Is the type of office relevant or?

Something else to note about Gore's energy usage--apparently, Gore runs two offices out of that house, so it's not like it's just him and Tipper running up that bill. It would be a better comparison if they put him up against a small business's energy usage.

I was wondering about that. I thought the numbers seemed too high for a household. I suspected it wasn't just them being liberal with their energy usage. I figured it had a right-wing media spin on it. It just reeked of it big time.

The media would get nowhere if it compared the Gore's energy consumption with a small business. The public wouldn't eat it up as quickly because most people don't have a small business they run. Most people understand it as a household cost more than a business cost because the average homeowner has a monthly hydro bill.

come on folks....the guys running the innerwebtubesnet....

Everything the right has accused Gore of doing wrong, lying about, etc., he has been vindicated on. He never claimed to invent the internet (he didn't); he did say that he sponsored a bill that led to the creation of the first internet-style system (he did). The neocon political machine never lets anything inconvenient like the truth get in the way of a good smear. Of course, the same can all to often be said of any political movement anywhere.

Ain't that America.

Instead of tackling the tough question of what our elected officials are doing about this problem, lets attack the man that's bringing this to the public's attention.

I gotta agree with Snafturi. (Kewl...internal rhyme)

I gotta agree with Snafturi. (Kewl...internal rhyme)

:p

You fell into the trap too, you know.

I'm posting this because:

1) It needs to be done to clear a smear that was done in This Thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=519285).

2) It proves to any skeptics that it's entirely possible to have a huge energy bill and support green energy 100%. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that if you use 100% green energy, you're also going to be supporting it more for every single one of their kilowatt you use.

awe, you quotes me how nice. I'm just damn sick and tired of people arguing their point to the point it's beaten time and time again. Then they act like "well what if...?" And what if Monkeys flew out of my ass to quote a stupid fake blonde twit with a fake british accent.

Gore-Obama 2008!!!

I'm posting this because:

1) It needs to be done to clear a smear that was done in This Thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=519285).

2) It proves to any skeptics that it's entirely possible to have a huge energy bill and support green energy 100%. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that if you use 100% green energy, you're also going to be supporting it more for every single one of their kilowatt you use.

??? so you create a thread to cover a topic posted in another thread?

Gore-Obama 2008!!!

why would you want to gore Obama in 2008? :D

why would you want to gore Obama in 2008? :D

so i can eat his heart and thus gain his strength.

I hope these guys can't ring up my power supplier and broadcast my monthly power useage to the entire world.

That's the main flaw they have. Records are not publicly available...or shouldn't be.

http://www.workingforchange.com/webgraphics/WFC/TMW022807.jpg

everybody love Barack, but let's face it, the Obambi quotes are going to catch up to him. Now, an Albert/Barack ticket by the Dems? The GOP will be running scared. And we'll finally start on fixing that Global warming bit that will one day kill us.

might I inquire as to what an "obambi quote" is?

might I inquire as to what an "obambi quote" is?

Any quote featuring "Obambi", or other remarks about how four years a Senator does not a President make.

Any quote featuring "Obambi", or other remarks about how four years a Senator does not a President make.

Sometimes it takes a fresh perspective to get a more objective analysis and set things aright.

Any quote featuring "Obambi", or other remarks about how four years a Senator does not a President make.


I've never heard the Obambi term.

His lack of experience as a Senator is a plus in my book, besides, the only thing that makes a President is votes for the eligible person running for said office.

People love Obama and his message and the more people talk about how little experience he has (because thats ALL they seem to say about him) it seems the more popular he gets because I don't see his numbers sliding downward.

why would you want to gore Obama in 2008? :D
Figurative sense, probably.
He's a catch for the eye. ;)

http://www.workingforchange.com/webgraphics/WFC/TMW022807.jpg

:D

Democrats Fail to Pass Symbolic, Nonbinding Resolution Declaring Earth Not Flat

Sir Bedevere: ...and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped.
Arthur: This new learning amazes me, Sir Bedevere. Explain again how sheep's bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes.

Any quote featuring "Obambi", or other remarks about how four years a Senator does not a President make.

apparently six years of presidential quotes does not a President make either....

why would you want to gore Obama in 2008? :D

I'd rather gore Hilary now.

I'd rather gore Hilary now.

^^^:D ...good one snafturi

I'd rather gore Hilary now.in the same sense as...
Figurative sense, probably.
He's a catch for the eye. ;)?

I've never heard the Obambi term.

His lack of experience as a Senator is a plus in my book, besides, the only thing that makes a President is votes for the eligible person running for said office.

People love Obama and his message and the more people talk about how little experience he has (because thats ALL they seem to say about him) it seems the more popular he gets because I don't see his numbers sliding downward.

It's not the experience or inexperience that matters; after all, Dick Cheney is one of the most experienced and senior politicians the Republicans have, and look what a bang-up job he's done. What matters is the ability to understand how the world works and, when you don't know, find people who can give you a good assessment themselves. On both counts, Obama seems pretty good. Whenever he speaks about policies, he always sounds informed, and from his record he seems able to discern decent argumentation from the crap. I'm withholding judgment thus far, but I don't think Obama should be knocked out of consideration because he's too inexperienced or too young. After all, he's 48, and Blair took over at 43.

Something else to note about Gore's energy usage--apparently, Gore runs two offices out of that house, so it's not like it's just him and Tipper running up that bill. It would be a better comparison if they put him up against a small business's energy usage.

not to rain on the lovefest...but he has 2 other mansions that are equally consumptive..and are rarely used.
akin to me having 3 suv's idling in my drive...while i am in my office.

not to say i am not green or about conserving energy...cause i am,but you guys are backing the wrong horse here..he is,like most if not all pol's,full of shit!
i will post the link when i can find it....gore is no different then bush...he is just telling you what you want to hear,unlike bush.
bush and cheney just straight up tell you they are fucking you..with a bit of a patina on it...hillary and gore...et all on both sides..bullshit everyone.

sad:(

i hope we all realise that politicians public personas/statements rarely coincide with the reality of their lives and attitudes....they are after all,politicians looking to tell us what we want to hear.
for gore...he is going after the green vote and liberal college kids...conversely...bush goes for the neo con vote..kinda predictable what their stances will be.

as much as i dislike bush hole...i will at least give him credit for being more honest then alot of liberal american pol's,at least with the bush crowd..they either straight up tell you that your gona get screwed,or lie so badly that you know.
gore and his ilk...dangle the dream in front of us..with no intention to carry thru..empty words from empty people.

and as an aside...if gore invented the internet..lol...i have no idea if that is true or a conservative smear...he is also responsible for the quadrupling of plastics and chemicals involved in producing the computers we all hold so dear.
not exactly enviromentallly friendly.

but i suppose if he espouses one's values and beliefs(whether he does or not)earns him a pass on his hypocracy.

and as far as global warming...i froze my ass off the last few weeks...so does that discount global warming?
or is the counter argument that weather is cyclical?
if so...then how does that prove global warming...if weather is cyclical,could the warming trend not be a cycle?
i am not a meteorologist..or a scientist...but they cant predict next weeks weather...but i am to believe they can predict the weather 20 years from now?

strikes me as fear mongering,just like the war on terror crap from the other side.

it may be true,but until they can accurately tell me the weather next month...i wont count on their prediction of the weather 20 years from now.
and add in the fact that we had an ice age...what caused that..cavemen farting?
that was an aberration of climate,and had zip to do with us...but it happenned,if this global warming trend is real..why could that not be a aberration?

honest questions for people with open minds.

That's the main flaw they have. Records are not publicly available...or shouldn't be.And apparently weren't either.

It's nice to see they're having slightly less luck disseminating their outright lies in the media this time. I have to admit that when I watched the flick, I almost managed to convince myself there'd be accusations Gore'd claimed he was the first person to measure CO2 in the atmos.

And apparently weren't either.

It's nice to see they're having slightly less luck disseminating their outright lies in the media this time. I have to admit that when I watched the flick, I almost managed to convince myself there'd be accusations Gore'd claimed he was the first person to measure CO2 in the atmos.

We've gotten better at pushing back against the bullshit. If we'd known how bad it could be, and had done this in 2000, he'd have been President Gore. If we'd have even learned by 2004, though we'd made some improvements, we'd have a President Kerry (for better or worse). Now we've got a Democratic Congress. Let's see if we can keep it going in 2008.

We've gotten better at pushing back against the bullshit. If we'd known how bad it could be, and had done this in 2000, he'd have been President Gore. If we'd have even learned by 2004, though we'd made some improvements, we'd have a President Kerry (for better or worse). Now we've got a Democratic Congress. Let's see if we can keep it going in 2008.If that's the case, I'm looking forward to your rebuttal of Secret aj man's last post here. My fuse is too short for that kind of thing.

One of the (many) wee ironies I see with the neo-con mouth-frothers hellbent on attacking Al Gore is that they're now deriding a rich man simply because he's wealthy enough to own a bloody big house. 10000 sq foot house is - what? 8, 10 times the size of the average US house? It's damn near 20 times the size of my flat.

I thought they were all for capitalism, wealth-inequality and ppl making more money than they know what to do with.
Only when it suits them, obviously. and only when that person flaunting their wealth isn't saying things they agree with.

If that's the case, I'm looking forward to your rebuttal of Secret aj man's last post here. My fuse is too short for that kind of thing.

Gladly

not to rain on the lovefest...but he has 2 other mansions that are equally consumptive..and are rarely used.
akin to me having 3 suv's idling in my drive...while i am in my office.

If those mansions are rarely used, how are they consuming? Sure some appliances will use electricity constantly regardless of whether someone is home or not (refrigerator really the only one) but if the houses aren't in used, who exactly is...you know....using the power?

not to say i am not green or about conserving energy...cause i am,but you guys are backing the wrong horse here..he is,like most if not all pol's,full of shit!

Even if he were, this somehow changes his message?

i will post the link when i can find it....

you do that.

they are after all,politicians looking to tell us what we want to hear.
for gore...he is going after the green vote and liberal college kids...conversely...bush goes for the neo con vote..kinda predictable what their stances will be.

Yes shocking that a liberal might actually say things that liberals agree with. He must be just be trying to appease the liberals. It's not possible that he might be dealing with issues important to a lot of liberals because he's....well a fucking liberal, is it?

And by the way...WHAT vote? What fucking vote is gore going for here? He hasn't held office in over 6 years now. He's not running for office as far as we know. He's made no moves towards the presidency or any other office.

He is citizen al gore. Whose fucking votes is he going after?

as much as i dislike bush hole...i will at least give him credit for being more honest then alot of liberal american pol's,at least with the bush crowd..they either straight up tell you that your gona get screwed,or lie so badly that you know.

If you prefer bush over gore because bush's lies to the american public are so bizaare and outlandish that no reasonable person can believe them...you're seriously screwed up.

gore and his ilk...dangle the dream in front of us..with no intention to carry thru..empty words from empty people.

How dare Al gore not fix global warming....by himself, or something. He actually expects us all to work TOGETHER to fix this shit. Bastard

and as an aside...if gore invented the internet..lol...i have no idea if that is true or a conservative smear...he is also responsible for the quadrupling of plastics and chemicals involved in producing the computers we all hold so dear.
not exactly enviromentallly friendly.

This is not even worth responding to. We'll lable it conservative smear.

but i suppose if he espouses one's values and beliefs(whether he does or not)earns him a pass on his hypocracy.

Because he might use a lot of power somehow invalidates global warming?

and as far as global warming...i froze my ass off the last few weeks...so does that discount global warming?

no.


or is the counter argument that weather is cyclical?

no.

if so...then how does that prove global warming...if weather is cyclical,could the warming trend not be a cycle?

that...isn't...the...argument.

i am not a meteorologist..or a scientist...

No shit.

but they cant predict next weeks weather...but i am to believe they can predict the weather 20 years from now?

you know how I know you're not a scientist? Because you don't know the difference between weather and climate.

strikes me as fear mongering,just like the war on terror crap from the other side.

it may be true,but until they can accurately tell me the weather next month...i wont count on their prediction of the weather 20 years from now.


I have no idea what the weather will be like in ontario canada on Tuesday at 2pm. No fucking clue what so ever.

I do know that June in Ontario will be hotter than last month was.

Climate...weather...not the same thing.

that was an aberration of climate,and had zip to do with us...but it happenned,if this global warming trend is real..why could that not be a aberration?

because:

1) we know what gasses our species produces
2) we know what effect those gasses have on the atmosphere.

What the fuck more do you want?

honest questions for people with open minds.[/QUOTE]

Well, you know what they say about 'people with open minds': If it's too open, anything can fall right in - and everything can fall right back out.

My beef with Al Gore is not that he uses to much electricity, but that he has a beef with how much electricity I use.

But I see now I have misunderstood his message: provided I buy some acres upstate and plant trees to offset my emissions, he's cool with whatever I do.

On the other hand he wants poor people to conserve.

Well I have long said that the middle class in the US are far to materialistic and should cut back on their shiny imported toys and cars, so I approve his message.

But I see now I have misunderstood his message: provided I buy some acres upstate and plant trees to offset my emissions, he's cool with whatever I do.

more cool than with what you are doing now.

On the other hand he wants poor people to conserve.

he is conserving too. carbon offsets are a form of conservation. just like sustainable lumber practices are, just like using renewable energy is, just like fucking organic farming is.

he is conserving too. carbon offsets are a form of conservation. just like sustainable lumber practices are, just like using renewable energy is, just like fucking organic farming is.

What's the offset for an acre of forest?

And I disagree that organic farming is conservationist. Farming destroys habitat.

What's the offset for an acre of forest? You can learn more about carbon offsets here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_offsets) For a good long while, I thought this was the rightwing dream come true. Pay the little guy to clean up your mess. Why Republicrats aren't creaming their pants over this concept's beyond me. Personally, I think it's fucking vile. Sadly I'm aware it's as good as it gets.And I disagree that organic farming is conservationist. Farming destroys habitat.And shit kills people. It's the art of being devastatingly vague. Both our assertions are true, but neither's even remotely true universally. People don't die every time you take a shit, and habitats usually aren't destroyed by organic farming.

??? so you create a thread to cover a topic posted in another thread?

Because people are lazy and only read the first post of a thread, thus doing what Johnny B Goode did and reading the first post, assuming Gore's hypocricy and posting "what a hypocrite" with the rebuttal being 8 pages into the thread.

People are lazy, I know this, so a new thread is the only way to bring attention to this.

This is all bullsh*t, every 10.000-100.000 years, there's been a major climate change, so I see this as an opportunity for mr. Gore to make some money.

Stealth bump to keep this on the same page as the anti-Gore stuff.

and habitats usually aren't destroyed by organic farming.

You fail at ecology sir.

One of the (many) wee ironies I see with the neo-con mouth-frothers hellbent on attacking Al Gore is that they're now deriding a rich man simply because he's wealthy enough to own a bloody big house. 10000 sq foot house is - what? 8, 10 times the size of the average US house? It's damn near 20 times the size of my flat.

I thought they were all for capitalism, wealth-inequality and ppl making more money than they know what to do with.
Only when it suits them, obviously. and only when that person flaunting their wealth isn't saying things they agree with.

So a man of inherited wealth like Gore can't afford to practice what he preaches because he doesn't have the intellect to do so? :confused:

That's very sad! :P

But let us take a moment to admire the feudal loyalty of those leftists who do not care that Mr. Gore scorns their doctrine by his example. ;)

So a man of inherited wealth like Gore can't afford to practice what he preaches because he doesn't have the intellect to do so? :confused:

That's very sad! :P

But let us take a moment to admire the feudal loyalty of those leftists who do not care that Mr. Gore scorns their doctrine by his example. ;)
This is even better than I had expected. Not only does Gore buy offsets to allow him guiltless carbon use, but he buys them from himself. From the WSJ OpinionJournal:

But how Gore buys his "carbon offsets," as revealed by The Tennessean (http://tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070227/NEWS01/702270382) raises serious questions. According to the newspaper's report, Gore buys his carbon offsets through Generation Investment Management:

Gore helped found Generation Investment Management, through which he and others pay for offsets. The firm invests the money in solar, wind and other projects that reduce energy consumption around the globe . . .

Gore is chairman of the firm and, presumably, draws an income or will make money as its investments prosper. In other words, he "buys" his "carbon offsets" from himself, through a transaction designed to boost his own investments and return a profit to himself. To be blunt, Gore doesn't buy "carbon offsets" through Generation Investment Management--he buys stocks. . . .

This is even better than I had expected. Not only does Gore buy offsets to allow him guiltless carbon use, but he buys them from himself. From the WSJ OpinionJournal:

omg noes!!!!!1!
rich environmentalist attempts to make money on carbon offsets, makes use of own services to offset carbon emissions! ascii art at 11!!!!!!!

omg noes!!!!!1!
rich environmentalist attempts to make money on carbon offsets, makes use of own services to offset carbon emissions! ascii art at 11!!!!!!!

Not to mention that the Opinion Journal has been caught out more than once playing fast and loose with facts when it comes to Democrats. The Wall Street Journal is one of the best papers out there, but their editorial pages leave a lot to be desired--and they don't do retractions or corrections, even of matters of fact. The only thing they do is allow rebuttals, though often they're printed without context. Believe them at your own risk.

Not to mention that the Opinion Journal has been caught out more than once playing fast and loose with facts when it comes to Democrats. The Wall Street Journal is one of the best papers out there, but their editorial pages leave a lot to be desired--and they don't do retractions or corrections, even of matters of fact. The only thing they do is allow rebuttals, though often they're printed without context. Believe them at your own risk.
This does make Gore look even more disingenuous than if he were just buying credits. I can see why you might want to sidestep the issue by attempting to discredit the Opinion Journal. In this case, however, all that was done was to point out the simple facts that were originally published in the linked Tennessean article. I think the only thing that they got wrong was that this is not a public corporation. Thus, Gore isn't buying stock in his company, he's just paying himself directly.

In fact, this is more than just hypocritical. Don't try to tell me that this doesn't deserve the same sort of disdain you've heaped on the current Administration for awarding contracts to Haliburton.

In fact, this is more than just hypocritical. Don't try to tell me that this doesn't deserve the same sort of disdain you've heaped on the current Administration for awarding contracts to Haliburton.

yes, because al gore is offsetting his carbon emissions by charging billions of dollars to the tax payers, giving that money to himself, and then not actually offsetting any emissions at all...

does anyone know what the "average" 10,000 sq ft house costs in electricity per month?

Thus, Gore isn't buying stock in his company, he's just paying himself directly.

No.

Gore is two people here. The chairman of a company with emission credits to sell, and a purchaser of credits.

So he, private person, is buying credits from the company he is the chairman of.

You make two assumptions:

1) he draws a salary for his position
2) that salary is directly linked to what he pays in

The only way he'd get back what he pays is if he has chairman pays himself that. You have ABSOLUTLY no evidence of that what so ever. You have NOTHING to show that the copnay from which he buys the credits is reimbursing it in the form of salary to its chairman.

In fact the article you quoted says that this company invests in alternative energies. So I could read this as saying that not ONLY is Gore preserving the enviornment by buying credit offsets but he's also ensuring that the money used to purchase those credits is going to invest in alternative energy.

Wait...that actually makes him sound like a good guy, doesn't it?

Fuck, what are ya gonna do now?

Your source is worse than worthless. It presumes he draws a salary, and then presumes that salary is there to pay off his carbon credits and not to...you know...do a fucking job. It makes two major presumptions and offers NOTHING to back that up, and then proceeds to act smug about its reasoning.

Well I presume you raped your mother, so I'm going to call you a rapist.

does anyone know what the "average" 10,000 sq ft house costs in electricity per month?

not a clue, but when I took the carbon footprint quiz, I gained a bit from having 4 people in a 1000 square foot house, apparently we have "too much space" and should either move more people in, or live somewhere smaller.....so I don't know how much staff he has, but it would have to be a lot to make up for that square footage.

not a clue, but when I took the carbon footprint quiz, I gained a bit from having 4 people in a 1000 square foot house, apparently we have "too much space" and should either move more people in, or live somewhere smaller.....so I don't know how much staff he has, but it would have to be a lot to make up for that square footage.

i cant imagine living in a 10,000 sqft house. what do you do with the space?
is he heating, cooling and lighting empty rooms? do they wander from room to room so they can justify having so many? is his living room bigger than my whole house (and why would anyone want a room so big?)

in other words, rich people are a mystery to me.

so your carbon footprint is too big even though you have 250sqft per person?

i cant imagine living in a 10,000 sqft house. what do you do with the space?
is he heating, cooling and lighting empty rooms? do they wander from room to room so they can justify having so many? is his living room bigger than my whole house (and why would anyone want a room so big?)

in other words, rich people are a mystery to me.

the largest house I have been in was 8,000 square feet, but they had 8 adopted children, who each had their own room and their own study. They used every single room in the house almost daily except for the basement that had 2 bowling lanes, because the kids had to earn bowling time by cleaning up after themselves (they had no staff other than the landscapers)

so your carbon footprint is too big even though you have 250sqft per person?
yep, some of it was from my car, but a lot of it was from the size of my house.

yep, some of it was from my car, but a lot of it was from the size of my house.

that just doesnt seem right to me. did you feel guilty that you were using so much more than your allotted resources? too bad you arent rich like al gore, you could have a huge house and justify it all by spending more money than you need to on your electric bill.

that just doesnt seem right to me. did you feel guilty that you were using so much more than your allotted resources? too bad you arent rich like al gore, you could have a huge house and justify it all by spending more money than you need to on your electric bill.

yeah, I don't feel too bad. I like having my 250 square feet, it's much better than when I lived in my car. ;)

My new house will be more energy efficient than this one, so I figure I will make up for my sins then.

yeah, I don't feel too bad. I like having my 250 square feet, it's much better than when I lived in my car. ;)

My new house will be more energy efficient than this one, so I figure I will make up for my sins then.So was your carbon footprint based more on the size of the home, or on the inefficiencies of it? Seems to me that while size is certainly a factor, there are ways to mitigate that.

So was your carbon footprint based more on the size of the home, or on the inefficiencies of it? Seems to me that while size is certainly a factor, there are ways to mitigate that.

it's poorly insulated, so high energy bills, plus size.

You guys are missing the real threat here.

Im talking of course...


About...






ManBearPig. (http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f179/std521/graphics/manbearpig.jpg)

He is a threat too our very existence.... I'm super cereal.

it's poorly insulated, so high energy bills, plus size.
That's my situation--but it's a rental, and I'm in a market where I can't hope to own unless we hit another depression and I manage to keep my job, so...

I mean, I live in south Florida in a south-facing apartment with 3 window units for A/C. We've done what we can to reduce the amount of heat that gets in, but short of completely renovating the joint, we're sort of stuck. We have done the fluorescent light bulb thing and we use the AC as sparingly as possible, but in a month or two it'll be brutal down here every day.

That's my situation--but it's a rental, and I'm in a market where I can't hope to own unless we hit another depression and I manage to keep my job, so...
Then move.

??? so you create a thread to cover a topic posted in another thread?Indeed. One is plenty.