NationStates Jolt Archive

In fact, I believe every socialist who doesn't support the two are hypocrites. The thing is, Marx said that outsourcing and free trade was bad because it hurt markets in someone's home country. But I do also believe that Marx said that we should not worry only about our country, but about the whole world, and that in fact we should not worry about our country at all. And yet he says that we should protect the domestic markets and jobs of our countries at the cost of the domestic markets and jobs of other countries.

Free Trade: What does it do? Allows countries to trade freely amongst each other, without the need to pay tariffs and the such, which in the end will result in the two countries becoming closer companions, and possibly allies, leading further to international peace. Plus, it allows nations to share much needed goods with each other, sometimes possibly saving nations from starvation, which should obviously lead to more peace between countries.

Outsourcing: What does it do? It says that we trust other countries with the needs of our citizens. It says that other countries trust us with the needs of their citizens. Is there no better way to solidify an alliance, and therefore peace with other countries than trusting the lives (and/or comforts) of our citizens to other countries, and they to us?

If Marx had wanted peace amongst all nations in the world, and hopefully eventually a one-world union, he sure had a funny way of getting around to it.

So yes. If you are a socialist and do not support free trade and outsourcing, that either makes you a national socialist (Not in the Nazi kind of way, in the "Screw the rest of the world! Socialist revolution here and no where else!" kind of way), or it makes you a hypocrite.

Ok, that was rough in more ways than one, but I hope you get the idea.

I too as a socialist support free trade, but not with NAFTA because it compromise Canada's sovereign integrity. There is a particular chapter that gives American companies access to our resources if there is a Canadian company dominating that sector of the market. I disagree with that, but, I still think the spirit of free trade is a good thing.

I would support out-sourcing, except out-sourcing, general, happens because there are nations without decent labour laws where the companies go to find cheap labour. They pay the workers far less than their work is worth. That doesn't help the world because there are workers in countries with high labour standards who aren't getting the work, and those with no labour laws protecting workers, where the workers are exploited because they are desperate.

Well, I'm a ninja and I support hook hands and buried treasure.

Marx doesn't equal God just so you know…

as much as I despise the concepts of tariffs and such the concept that economics should have anything to do with ideology is the bigger of two evils here

as much as I despise the concepts of tariffs and such the concept that economics should have anything to do with ideology is the bigger of two evils here
Don't be silly. Economics merely tells you the 'how'. Which policies will be adopted depend on the end desired, so yes, ideology most certainly enters into the picture. There is such a thing as economics based on bad method though, and Marxian economics tends to fit under that category.

And New Ritlina, why does it seem with every post of yours that you somehow seem to re-invent the proverbial wheel? :rolleyes:

If Marx had wanted peace amongst all nations in the world, and hopefully eventually a one-world union, he sure had a funny way of getting around to it.He did want peace amongst all nations in the world, but not under systems of capitalism.
If you were to have argued that outsourcing and free trade ultimately weaken capitalism, then you might be onto something, but you didn't.

Before you start talking about how wonderful out sourcing is, I need to ask. Do any of you all live in a place where there are no jobs because of out sourcing? I live in SW Virginia, where all the textile and furniture plants are gone. So a bunch of help/call centers moved in. Now they are gone. So everybody sells drugs and steals. If we have no means of making a living what are we supposed to do?

Before you start talking about how wonderful out sourcing is, I need to ask. Do any of you all live in a place where there are no jobs because of out sourcing?

I live in Britain hmmm

I live in SW Virginia, where all the textile and furniture plants are gone. So a bunch of help/call centers moved in. Now they are gone. So everybody sells drugs and steals. If we have no means of making a living what are we supposed to do?

Oh yes its the worlds fault that your local economy went down the toilet because it was based on unskilled labour and it’s the worlds fault again that you can’t get another job oh how I weep :rolleyes:

Before you start talking about how wonderful out sourcing is, I need to ask. Do any of you all live in a place where there are no jobs because of out sourcing? I live in SW Virginia, where all the textile and furniture plants are gone. So a bunch of help/call centers moved in. Now they are gone. So everybody sells drugs and steals. If we have no means of making a living what are we supposed to do?

Wish you'd paid more attention in school?

Wish you'd paid more attention in school?





Why so could defend all of the people in court who are trying to feed their families. Its so bad half of our police force has been arrested for helping the drug dealer.

Wish you'd paid more attention in school?If there are no jobs in the area, the education level is irrelevant.

Why so could defend all of the people in court who are trying to feed their families. Its so bad half of our police force has been arrested for helping the drug dealer.

from what I can make of that sentence no you should of paid attention in school so you could of got a skilled job instead of expecting a textile industry to hold up

But its not like you can’t get the skills needed to get a job right now you must have a library and if all else fails the military offers to teach you real world skills for 3 years of your life

Before you start talking about how wonderful out sourcing is, I need to ask. Do any of you all live in a place where there are no jobs because of out sourcing? I live in SW Virginia, where all the textile and furniture plants are gone. So a bunch of help/call centers moved in. Now they are gone. So everybody sells drugs and steals. If we have no means of making a living what are we supposed to do?

what do you do?....move, re-educate yourself, whatever it takes to get a job...even in a socialist country you're expected to look after yourself and your family...

I'm a socialist and see globalization as normal economic evolution towards parity between nations....

If there are no jobs in the area, the education level is irrelevant.

You're saying there are no jobs in that area that require good qualifications? Or that they are all outsourced too?

Well, I'm a ninja and I support hook hands and buried treasure.

Ninja pirates are the best kind, no matter how contradictory.

You're saying there are no jobs in that area that require good qualifications? Or that they are all outsourced too?The scenario posited was that they were all outsourced. I dunno if this is true or not.

there are always jobs available its just that people are fussy, though I thought I’d never say this sometimes flipping burgers on minimum wage is what you have to doNo, jobs aren't always available. I imagine that they are in reality, but in the scenario posited, they aren't.

If there are no jobs in the area, the education level is irrelevant.

there are always jobs available its just that people are fussy, though I thought I’d never say this sometimes flipping burgers on minimum wage is what you have to do

what do you do?....move, re-educate yourself, whatever it takes to get a job...even in a socialist country you're expected to look after yourself and your family...

I'm a socialist and see globalization as normal economic evolution towards parity between nations....

Re-educate yourself? I seem to remember that when manufacturing jobs were being shipped overseas, the answer was, "Well, learn computers, that's where the new jobs are going to be, in the information sector!"

Guess what? Those are the jobs that are being outsourced now. Half my team is currently in India. Makes discussing a project interesting, we either have to have meetings at dawn, or they have to hang around the office way late, and as for e-mail conversations, forget that, they take days. But hey, those guys only earn a quarter of what we do over here, so it looks great on the Bottom Line, and that's all that matters, isn't it? Feh.

from what I can make of that sentence no you should of paid attention in school so you could of got a skilled job instead of expecting a textile industry to hold up

Well luckily not everyone is a socialist so we can be annoyed without hypocrisy when companies decide to screw American workers by shipping the jobs out to countries that will allow them to pay their employees next to nothing. Then we don't have to blame the American workers for not getting higher educations. But who gives a shit about them, right? They are simply stupid, didn't apply in school so they don't deserve to have employment. Nice attitude.

Re-educate yourself? I seem to remember that when manufacturing jobs were being shipped overseas, the answer was, "Well, learn computers, that's where the new jobs are going to be, in the information sector!"

Guess what? Those are the jobs that are being outsourced now. Half my team is currently in India. Makes discussing a project interesting, we either have to have meetings at dawn, or they have to hang around the office way late, and as for e-mail conversations, forget that, they take days. But hey, those guys only earn a quarter of what we do over here, so it looks great on the Bottom Line, and that's all that matters, isn't it? Feh.

well that's no different then what used to happen on a national scale, companies have always moved to where labour costs are lower, eventually India's standard of living will increase, their wages will increase and companies will find a new labour market in another country...bottom line is always a factor, if the company you work for can't compete and goes under, then you have no job at all...

Well luckily not everyone is a socialist so we can be annoyed without hypocrisy when companies decide to screw American workers by shipping the jobs out to countries that will allow them to pay their employees next to nothing. Then we don't have to blame the American workers for not getting higher educations. But who gives a shit about them, right? They are simply stupid, didn't apply in school so they don't deserve to have employment. Nice attitude.

Of course, anti-outsourcing attitudes are saying that Americans deserve jobs more than Indians, so ...

Before you start talking about how wonderful out sourcing is, I need to ask. Do any of you all live in a place where there are no jobs because of out sourcing? I live in SW Virginia, where all the textile and furniture plants are gone. So a bunch of help/call centers moved in. Now they are gone. So everybody sells drugs and steals. If we have no means of making a living what are we supposed to do?

Simple idea: create your own jobs.

That's how people around here make good use of their seemingly useless educations and it works rather marvelously.

I will elaborate:
You worked with textile and furniture factories, right? So, surely, you learned something about textiles and furniture, right? If not, what were you doing working at those factories?

well that's no different then what used to happen on a national scale, companies have always moved to where labour costs are lower, eventually India's standard of living will increase, their wages will increase and companies will find a new labour market in another country...bottom line is always a factor, if the company you work for can't compete and goes under, then you have no job at all...

Nice dodge. You state the obvious, of course companies will always do what you say. I'm talking about the hypocrisy in telling American workers to look to high-tech jobs, and then yanking the high-tech jobs out from under them. But hey, why am I getting incensed over this? It's been going on for years and it's not about to stop any time soon. And people say the day of the labor union is over. :rolleyes:

Well luckily not everyone is a socialist so we can be annoyed without hypocrisy when companies decide to screw American workers by shipping the jobs out to countries that will allow them to pay their employees next to nothing. Then we don't have to blame the American workers for not getting higher educations. But who gives a shit about them, right? They are simply stupid, didn't apply in school so they don't deserve to have employment. Nice attitude.

that's a contradiction isn't it?.....companies following free market principles of supply and demand and you call them socialists.....even in days before socialism you future depended on education, if want to give yourself the best opportunities in life you acquire the best tools to have at your disposal, your brain being the most important....

Of course, anti-outsourcing attitudes are saying that Americans deserve jobs more than Indians, so ...

Of course Indians deserve jobs. Just not mine. Why is being annoyed that I might lose my livelihood suddenly politically incorrect? You try it, see how you like it.

Of course, anti-outsourcing attitudes are saying that Americans deserve jobs more than Indians, so ...

Indians deserve jobs just as much as anyone else. Why can't they create their own jobs. We did. Everyone else in the world has.

No, jobs aren't always available. I imagine that they are in reality, but in the scenario posited, they aren't.

so what your asking is to debate something which isn't real

SNIP

yeah cus that’s precisely why I stated in my previous posts that there is always the possibility to learn a new trade

And as such I feel no sympathy for workers who can’t get a job especially since so much is available to them

Indians deserve jobs just as much as anyone else. Why can't they create their own jobs. We did. Everyone else in the world has.

Obviously you didn't create your own jobs, because somebody else took them away. That somebody else created your jobs.

so what your asking is to debate something which isn't realI dunno if it's real or not. Do you have information about the job market in SW Virginia?

Indians deserve jobs just as much as anyone else. Why can't they create their own jobs. We did. Everyone else in the world has.

you mean all the jobs from America where created by you and in fact you are 200+ years old :eek:

Simple idea: create your own jobs.

That's how people around here make good use of their seemingly useless educations and it works rather marvelously.

I will elaborate:
You worked with textile and furniture factories, right? So, surely, you learned something about textiles and furniture, right? If not, what were you doing working at those factories?

Factory work usually isn't for skilled works. Most people don't know anything about the plant they are going to work. Thats why they train people. It's almost the last step before flipping burgers and working at convenience stores.

Factory work usually isn't for skilled works. Most people don't know anything about the plant they are going to work. Thats why they train people. It's almost the last step before flipping burgers and working at convenience stores.

Well, you know, you're not stuck.

Oh yeah, I'd like to tell you I'm not trying to be hostile, I probably sound that way anyway.

What I am trying to say is: You got screwed over and there really isn't much you can do about that. You can change your situation though, acquire some skills, maybe find a company who will be willing to train you. If you have an idea, but not the capital, go to a bank.

There are lots of possibilities, but I admit that most possibilities require hard work to achieve. That's why my studies aren't going that brilliantly.

Nice dodge. You state the obvious, of course companies will always do what you say. I'm talking about the hypocrisy in telling American workers to look to high-tech jobs, and then yanking the high-tech jobs out from under them. But hey, why am I getting incensed over this? It's been going on for years and it's not about to stop any time soon. And people say the day of the labor union is over. :rolleyes:

and there are lots of high tech jobs, sometimes it requires moving to get to them...my father moved his entire family across an ocean to find better jobs, I've moved my family across the country to find better opportunities...even as socialist I'm appalled at people who believe the state needs to think for them...

As a last tidbit, you'd be amazed what you can find on the internet.

Though I am confused, Virginia is a state in the US, so why when searching for southwest Virginia do I get the commonwealth of Virginia?

you mean all the jobs from America where created by you and in fact you are 200+ years old :eek:

Oh my god. You missed the point completely. They weren't created by me, but they were created by Americans. It wasn't created by Indians, Chinese, Irish, or the French.

I would say that governments should be concerned with the employment of their own citizens. It is not their responsibility to give people in other countries jobs at the expense of their own people. Which is what outsourcing is. America shouldn't be concerned with giving China or India American jobs but keeping those same jobs in THIS country.

The US government does not control american businesses. Nor should they, in a free market.

Of course, anti-outsourcing attitudes are saying that Americans deserve jobs more than Indians, so ...

I would say that governments should be concerned with the employment of their own citizens. It is not their responsibility to give people in other countries jobs at the expense of their own people. Which is what outsourcing is. America shouldn't be concerned with giving China or India American jobs but keeping those same jobs in THIS country.

Oh my god. You missed the point completely. They weren't created by me, but they were created by Americans. It wasn't created by Indians, Chinese, Irish, or the French.

this gives you some sort of entitlement? (and I think your forgetting foreign investment)

I would say that governments should be concerned with the employment of their own citizens. It is not their responsibility to give people in other countries jobs at the expense of their own people. Which is what outsourcing is. America shouldn't be concerned with giving China or India American jobs but keeping those same jobs in THIS country.

It's not the government doing it though, is it? Private businesses do the outsourcing, don't they?

Something else interesting to note Zepto! (http://zepto.com/Country/Default.aspx)

Now, why are they interesting?

Because they:
1) Realized that assembling a computer is quick and require a certain level of skill in some cases (particularly laptops).

2) Realized that importing computers from elsewhere made them more expensive (I am uncertain of tariffs, but transport costs alone are enough).

So, they now produce computers that are equal to those of Dell, but in Scandinavia. This makes them able to sell computers of the same quality as Dell, but at a lower price. Why won't this ever be outsourced?

Because the time it takes for a worker to assemble a computer is maybe an hour or two. They can buy the bits and pieces from outsourced work and then assemble a computer work between 1000-2000 dollars in an hour or two. Now, even with costs, that's a damn good profit.

So there you have it! If outsourcing of computer components hadn't been done, they would have been more expensive and people would have paid more. Have any jobs been lost? On the contrary! All of a sudden it's very beneficial to import these components and assemble your own, because they have the required skills.

yeah cus that’s precisely why I stated in my previous posts that there is always the possibility to learn a new trade

And as such I feel no sympathy for workers who can’t get a job especially since so much is available to them

Why do you assume that there will even be a new trade to learn? With all the jobs they could possible learn being sent out of the country what are they to do? Get a McJob? Or to somehow get money to go to college? I see no way to guarantee new employment by simply "learning something else", there aren't unlimited employment opportunities after all.

It's not the government doing it though, is it? Private businesses do the outsourcing, don't they?

Government though often supports the practice somehow believing that by sending jobs away from American workers that the economy will improve. I don't see how forcing people to get inferior work is going to help them.

Oh my god. You missed the point completely. They weren't created by me, but they were created by Americans. It wasn't created by Indians, Chinese, Irish, or the French.

so it's ok if those foreigners supply inexpensive goods and resources that give you a comfortable lifestyle but that ends when they strive to share in that lifestyle?....the comfortable and artificial lifestyle Americans are so proud of came at the expense of foreign workers, those foreigners have woken up and are now taking their share....

there aren't unlimited employment opportunities after all.

the entire history of human civilization seems to disagree with you on this

Well, you know, you're not stuck.

Oh yeah, I'd like to tell you I'm not trying to be hostile, I probably sound that way anyway.

What I am trying to say is: You got screwed over and there really isn't much you can do about that. You can change your situation though, acquire some skills, maybe find a company who will be willing to train you. If you have an idea, but not the capital, go to a bank.

There are lots of possibilities, but I admit that most possibilities require hard work to achieve. That's why my studies aren't going that brilliantly.

I'm one of the lucky ones. I got some education and got a job with a company that likes being in America. Your comment wasn't hostile at all. That is the solution, but when people don't have anything how can they get a loan from the bank with no collateral? There are just endless abandoned factories. The only jobs are nursing and countless minimum wage jobs.

Well, you know, you're not stuck.

Oh yeah, I'd like to tell you I'm not trying to be hostile, I probably sound that way anyway.

What I am trying to say is: You got screwed over and there really isn't much you can do about that. You can change your situation though, acquire some skills, maybe find a company who will be willing to train you. If you have an idea, but not the capital, go to a bank.

There are lots of possibilities, but I admit that most possibilities require hard work to achieve. That's why my studies aren't going that brilliantly.

I'm one of the lucky ones. I got some education and got a job with a company that likes being in America. Your comment wasn't hostile at all. That is the solution, but when people don't have anything how can they get a loan from the bank with no collateral? There are just endless abandoned factories. The only jobs are nursing and countless minimum wage jobs.

I'm one of the lucky ones. I got some education and got a job with a company that likes being in America. Your comment wasn't hostile at all. That is the solution, but when people don't have anything how can they get a loan from the bank with no collateral? There are just endless abandoned factories. The only jobs are nursing and countless minimum wage jobs.

Nice to know that I am not coming across as hostile :)

Anyway, you mentioned abandoned factories. This means that there are in fact possibilities. It might be possible to convince the government to tear down the buildings. It might be possible to refit them to perform other services that are not yet outsourced or that would not be worth outsourcing. They could be turned into warehouses, in order to import the goods that are now produced elsewhere.

So this really gives jobs in the construction industry (refitting the industries, demolition, etc...) and transport industry (importing, distributing, etc...).

Could these factories potentially be turned into cheap apartments? They did something similar to a factory near where I lived (and somehow managed to push the price Way above that of apartments in the center city). Banks will typically provide loans if you do have collateral - that could be the factories, that would be bought off the old companies, probably for cheap if you can convince them ;) You don't need an education for this. You need construction workers, good "diplomatic" type people, etc... Also, is there a (cheap affordable) housing problem near where you live? If so, then this might be the solution :p

so it's ok if those foreigners supply inexpensive goods and resources that give you a comfortable lifestyle but that ends when they strive to share in that lifestyle?....the comfortable and artificial lifestyle Americans are so proud of came at the expense of foreign workers, those foreigners have woken up and are now taking their share....

Everybody relies on foreign resources, but entire industries is a completely different story.

the entire history of human civilization seems to disagree with you on this

So anyone who is unemployed and has difficulty finding a new acceptable job has only him/herself to blame? There are no other factors involved?

There are just endless abandoned factories. The only jobs are nursing and countless minimum wage jobs.

so its a bit like if the factories never closed :p

so its a bit like if the factories never closed :p

A lot of those factories paid fairly well. A lot more than working for McDonalds and Walmart.

I'm one of the lucky ones. I got some education and got a job with a company that likes being in America. Your comment wasn't hostile at all. That is the solution, but when people don't have anything how can they get a loan from the bank with no collateral? There are just endless abandoned factories. The only jobs are nursing and countless minimum wage jobs.


well nursing is good paying job....

what to do when your job disappears? adapt....jobs disappear that's a reality of life...there is no longer a demand for wheelwrights or coopers those people had to look for new jobs....when samurai's were outlawed in Japan the armorers lost their customers so they became artisans....the Japanese were at one time the suppliers of inexpensive electronics to world, once their wages went up and they started losing their competitive edge they started outsourcing to China and Korea...eventually the Chinese and Koreans will do the same....this is the way of a free market in shrinking world, so learn to adapt or get left behind...

So anyone who is unemployed and has difficulty finding a new acceptable job has only him/herself to blame? There are no other factors involved?

‘acceptable job’ is the big mistake your making yes working at McDonalds is something nobody wants to do but in the real world you have to get by

A lot of those factories paid fairly well. A lot more than working for McDonalds and Walmart.

then there is a very good reason why they closed and I think the ex-factory workers could possibly of been the best paid factory workers in the world

‘acceptable job’ is the big mistake your making yes working at McDonalds is something nobody wants to do but in the real world you have to get by

Well I don't find it acceptable to take away someones job and send it overseas that pays at least decently, which than forces them to work in fast food for minimum wage. And of course in the real world, a McJob doesn't "get you by" as you can hardly pay the bills on that kind of paycheck. All it is is forcing Americans to accept lower paying jobs so corporations can benefit from paying their new foreign "employees" hardly any wage.

Well I don't find it acceptable to take away someones job and send it overseas that pays at least decently, which than forces them to work in fast food for minimum wage. And of course in the real world, a McJob doesn't "get you by" as you can hardly pay the bills on that kind of paycheck. All it is is forcing Americans to accept lower paying jobs so corporations can benefit from paying their new foreign "employees" hardly any wage.

Then something in that society, be it house prices, food prices, clothing prices, are over the top and need to be brought down, or labour costs are too low and need to be brought up.

and there are lots of high tech jobs, sometimes it requires moving to get to them...my father moved his entire family across an ocean to find better jobs, I've moved my family across the country to find better opportunities...even as socialist I'm appalled at people who believe the state needs to think for them...
Well that's one thing in your favour.

so it's ok if those foreigners supply inexpensive goods and resources that give you a comfortable lifestyle but that ends when they strive to share in that lifestyle?....the comfortable and artificial lifestyle Americans are so proud of came at the expense of foreign workers, those foreigners have woken up and are now taking their share....
It is true that in large part the West's high living standards, apart from being the result of its own ingenuity, did arise from exploiting and colonising weaker peoples. This is not the modern Westerner's fault, but unfortunately certain past actions have future consequences, one of which is the creation of a situation where there are large income disparities between nations. It will take a while before these disappear, and will cause some to suffer, but it is inevitable and cannot be stopped, nor should it be. Still, even the simplest of Ricardian trade models can demonstrate that on the whole both rich and poor countries benefit alike from free trade, not just the latter.

well nursing is good paying job....

what to do when your job disappears? adapt....jobs disappear that's a reality of life...there is no longer a demand for wheelwrights or coopers those people had to look for new jobs....when samurai's were outlawed in Japan the armorers lost their customers so they became artisans....the Japanese were at one time the suppliers of inexpensive electronics to world, once their wages went up and they started losing their competitive edge they started outsourcing to China and Korea...eventually the Chinese and Koreans will do the same....this is the way of a free market in shrinking world, so learn to adapt or get left behind...


But Japan is still the leading manufacturer of electronics. So they haven't given too much of it up.

On a lighter note, when I first saw this thread, I heard it sung to the tune of Monty Python's "Lumberjack Song" ... I'm a socialist and I'm okay ... try it! :D

a McJob doesn't "get you by" as you can hardly pay the bills on that kind of paycheck.

oh look America’s policy on minimum wage is biting it on the arse oh how the immigrants weep

All it is is forcing Americans to accept lower paying jobs so corporations can benefit from paying their new foreign "employees" hardly any wage.

Oh noez you have to compete with people who are willing to work extremely hard (well I would hardly say it’s a competition considering you can read, write and have access to learning resources)

oh look America’s policy on minimum wage is biting it on the arse oh how the immigrants weep

Isn't England trying to pass immigration laws stating only skilled workers can permanently live in England?

But Japan is still the leading manufacturer of electronics. So they haven't given too much of it up.

they outsource...a lot of those electronic products in your home that are stamped "Made in Japan" are in fact made in China or some other country where labour costs are lower...

Isn't England trying to pass immigration laws stating only skilled workers can permanently live in England?

no the British government is trying to pass these laws and not doing too well at it

oh look America’s policy on minimum wage is biting it on the arse oh how the immigrants weep



Oh noez you have to compete with people who are willing to work extremely hard (well I would hardly say it’s a competition considering you can read, write and have access to learning resources)

Oh yes, I forgot. We have to remember how much better we have it than other people in foreign nations. Well this is true. But that doesn't mean we can't still try to be even better. And when minimum wage isn't enough to live off of then you can complain. And when you have a good paying job that is shipped out and you are forced to work at that minimum wage fast food job than I'd say you deserve to be even more pissed. With our wealth I see no problems with expecting better and getting screwed by American companies is not something that should be tolerated.

I suppose you are just an elitist though. But maybe there is something wrong with the poorer classes. So maybe they should be looked down on, being poor is their own fault after all, right?

they outsource...a lot of those electronic products in your home that are stamped "Made in Japan" are in fact made in China or some other country where labour costs are lower...

They might be assembled in China, but they are made in Japan. If it says made in Japan then it is made in Japan. That would be illegal.

Oh my god. You missed the point completely. They weren't created by me, but they were created by Americans. It wasn't created by Indians, Chinese, Irish, or the French.They are not "American jobs". They are corporation x's jobs and they are free to move them wherever they see fit.

Oh yes, I forgot. We have to remember how much better we have it than other people in foreign nations. Well this is true. But that doesn't mean we can't still try to be even better. And when minimum wage isn't enough to live off of then you can complain. And when you have a good paying job that is shipped out and you are forced to work at that minimum wage fast food job than I'd say you deserve to be even more pissed. With our wealth I see no problems with expecting better and getting screwed by American companies is not something that should be tolerated.
If "American" companies do not like the conditions in the US market, they can just relocate, and export goods to the US if they please. Simple. Brilliant too. Now the US has lost a source of revenue. Other countries will appreciate them far more. It is not "our" wealth either. Unless the US is communist/fascist, in which case it should come out and admit it.

I suppose you are just an elitist though. But maybe there is something wrong with the poorer classes. So maybe they should be looked down on, being poor is their own fault after all, right?
Care to offer a real counter-argument?

But Japan is still the leading manufacturer of electronics. So they haven't given too much of it up.I am not so sure of that anymore, in any case the Chinese are catching up. I probably don't own any electronics made in Japan anymore...all China.

They are not "American jobs". They are corporation x's jobs and they are free to move them wherever they see fit.

I love this argument because corporation x lies telling tiy how much you are an integrated part of this company. How can WE make this company better? Tell you, you are this company. Then swoop, gone. Where's the respect for the people who would sweat day in and day out to make the company what it is today?

I love this argument because corporation x lies telling tiy how much you are an integrated part of this company. How can WE make this company better? Tell you, you are this company. Then swoop, gone. Where's the respect for the people who would sweat day in and day out to make the company what it is today?
Once you have offered your services and been rewarded for them and are no longer deemed of use to the company, it has no obligations to you. If, when you were employed you were not given partial ownership of the company, this is the inevitable outcome, and the result of your contract (if any).

And when minimum wage isn't enough to live off of then you can complain.

I do believe it was you who was complaining about this and to be fair its your own damn fault if you only suddenly realise minimum wage is suppose to make sure you have enough to live

With our wealth I see no problems with expecting better and getting screwed by American companies is not something that should be tolerated.

Since when did being in massive debt equal wealth?

I suppose you are just an elitist though.

Cant attack the message so you attack the messenger eh?

And for the record I’m from Northamptonshire I can hardly claim elitism

But maybe there is something wrong with the poorer classes. So maybe they should be looked down on, being poor is their own fault after all, right?

I don't quite know what to say to this other than its an angry rant from someone who has run out of things to say

A disposable workforce. Sad times we live in.
A corporation is just as disposable - if, for some reason, the mass of consumers shifts from one brand of car to another the corporation is in effect disposed of. You see, I can reverse your facile arguments. Why should American consumers buy from abroad and not support the corporations that make their high living standards possible? Imports should be outlawed, and American consumers forced to consume American products.

Change is inevitable. It has nothing to do with the times we live in, so stop trying to seem pseudo-intellectual by lamenting it.

Once you have offered your services and been rewarded for them and are no longer deemed of use to the company, it has no obligations to you. If, when you were employed you were not given partial ownership of the company, this is the inevitable outcome, and the result of your contract (if any).

A disposable workforce. Sad times we live in.

As a last tidbit, you'd be amazed what you can find on the internet.

Though I am confused, Virginia is a state in the US, so why when searching for southwest Virginia do I get the commonwealth of Virginia?

Certain states are officially named "the commonwealth of X". It's a holdover from colonial days. As you discovered, the official, legal name for Virginia is "the Commonwealth of Virginia".

Same with Massachusetts, Pennsylvania and Kentucky.

They might be assembled in China, but they are made in Japan. If it says made in Japan then it is made in Japan. That would be illegal.

I am not so sure of that anymore, in any case the Chinese are catching up. I probably don't own any electronics made in Japan anymore...all China.

what really happens is (and I learnt this from taking apart my mobile phones) Japan will handle the complex parts which are then shipped to China for assembly and the addition of simple to make parts like the cases

what really happens is (and I learnt this from taking apart my mobile phones) Japan will handle the complex parts which are then shipped to China for assembly and the addition of simple to make parts like the cases

It's like Volkswagens. 98% of parts are made in Germany but they are assembled in Mexico. There are still Volkswagen factories in Germany as there are in Mexico.

With our wealth I see no problems with expecting better and getting screwed by American companies is not something that should be tolerated.

I suppose you are just an elitist though. But maybe there is something wrong with the poorer classes. So maybe they should be looked down on, being poor is their own fault after all, right?

the reason you think you are wealthy was because of cheap products from other countries....those foreign workers want the same quality of life you have enjoyed at their expense...that farmer that slaves many hours a day for pennies growing coffee beans also wants a nice home and a car and plasma tv...the reason you can enjoy those things is because he worked cheap, that will change so your cost of living will increase as his profits go up...that makes you the elitist, expecting to continually live a pampered life style on the backs of 3rd world labour...

Panicfools


They might be assembled in China, but they are made in Japan. If it says made in Japan then it is made in Japan. That would be illegal.
Today 5:52 PM

and your point is what?....Japanese are aware of their reputation for quality products, China's not so much....the public looks more favorably on Sony products if they are stamped made in Japan than Made in China....it's a marketing ploy and maybe illegal but so what...

Certain states are officially named "the commonwealth of X". It's a holdover from colonial days. As you discovered, the official, legal name for Virginia is "the Commonwealth of Virginia".

Same with Massachusetts, Pennsylvania and Kentucky.

Awesome, I learned something new today :p

and your point is what?....Japanese are aware of their reputation for quality products, China's not so much....the public looks more favorably on Sony products if they are stamped made in Japan than Made in China....it's a marketing ploy and maybe illegal but so what...

I am positive my Sony PlayStation says "Made in China". If you open it up the components say "Made in Japan". The point is we can help other countries with jobs assembling, or making some of the components. We don't need to ship entire companies overseas. If you can help 2 countries at the same time. Why only help one while you hurt another.

Well everybody... Its been fun, but I have to get out of here. Don't get too mad at each other.

That's nice. I'm a Jew and I support Hitler.

That's nice. I'm a Jew and I support Hitler.

Socialism has nothing to do with outsourcing and free trade. Planned economies have everything to do with outsourcing and free trade. It just so happens that nationalist often oppose outsourcing and opposing outsourcing therefore tends to be a nationalist trait, as opposed to an internationalist trait.

I see no contradiction in being a socialist and internationalist.

So there are not that many jobs in SW WV? What a surprise. Appalachia has always been the most prosperous part of the country. </sarchasm>

I have little sympathy for anyone complaining about how there are no jobs in their neighborhood. If you cannot find work, look elsewhere. Jobs do not always just fall in your lap, sometimes you have to go out and look for them.

I know people who commute into DC from WV every day. There is no shortage of work here, and it is only a couple hours away. Worst case, hang out down at the day labor center in Herndon, VA. It’s a slow time of year, but will be picking up soon. Those of you complaining about how illegals get paid crap, the reality is that they make $12-16 per hour cash. The work is inconsistent and no benefits, but how many of you make $24/hr (the equivalent in taxed income for the same cash)?

Illegal immigrants can find jobs that pay well enough for them to live off of here plus support a large family back home. I have no sympathy for people crying about how all dem foriners done stole all da jobs.

Importing goods drops the cost of living here drastically. We can get goods for a fraction of the cost of making them here. Additionally, a lot of companies thrive here because they import primary or intermediary goods for cheap – which allows them to be profitable and hire a lot of workers.

Outsourcing and importing are a net gain for the country. More jobs are created than lost, firms are more profitable, and the cost of living is reduced. One the plus side, it provides jobs for those workers overseas, helping them out of penury. It’s win-win-win.

The only people who loose out are those who lost a job and don’t put any effort into getting a new one.

When times got tough, you do what you have to do. Starting early in the morning to stock shelves in the supermarket then working late at burger king is not fun, but if that’s what you need to do, then do it. If you still can’t live on that, then you have some serious problems that go beyond just finding a job.

A while ago I was tired of working for someone else and started my own business. I did it in my limited spare time, and was a long time coming because I only used my very limited disposable income to invest in it (business loan would have had an unacceptably high rate), but now am poised to work only when I feel like it.

Put the same energy you use bitching about how all the jobs get outsourced into finding a new job for yourself. It isn’t that hard if you’re willing to actually work. If you’re holding out for a cushy over-paid union job, that’s your own fault.

Ok, I wasn't able to get on much after I posted that, but let me just summarize my debate.

The only reason you can't get any jobs, is because you've been softened up. You've been softened up my American lifestyle to think that the government is going to do everything for you, that they'll find you a nice paying job, that they'll make sure you can stay living the same way you are. And because of that you aren't willing to take a minimum wage job. And yet you complain at the same time that there are no jobs what-so-ever, when there's a McDonalds willing to hire you right next to you. Sure, it's minimum wage, but it's a god damned frackin' start. Don't complain about how it will keep you from having a good lifestyle. Hell, even with minimum wage you'll be having a better lifestyle than the people you claim to be hogging your comforts over in India. So toughen up, and take that minimum wage job, and stop complaining about foreigners taking your jobs, mkay?

Also: Don't forget to look other places. Southwest Virginia isn't the center of all jobs in the world, you know. Even if you have to move to find a job, move!

Have any of the people claiming 'suck it up and get a McJob' actually ever worked at McDonalds? Or are they just spouting platitudes?

I worked at McDonald's for 7.5 years, all through high-school and college and the years in between, and let me tell you, unless you're the store manager, you're not going to make a living off of what they pay. Sorry. For someone who was at one time working in a factory and making a decent living and supporting a family, suddenly having to live off of minimum wage just doesn't work. Crying 'lazy bastard' doesn't help either. Part of the reason those jobs were well-paying in the first place were due to hard-fought battles for a share of the wealth. Now, the benefits of those battles are shipped somewhere where those battles haven't been fought.

Trade is an essential element of any economy. Free Trade isn't. The whole purpose of the nation-state is to organize and promote the general interest of its citizens. How on earth is eliminating a citizen's means of gainful employment in the national interest?

One may argue that our goods are cheaper. So, while maybe we're being paid less on average, the cost of living is less because we are buying cheap goods. This simply isn't true. While specific items may be far less expensive due to mass production, the businesses we work for are constantly at odds to reduce wages in order to be competitive, and worst of all, our capital now ends up outside our local economy.

Folks, we're building an economic system that transcends our legislative ability to help ourselves; we're becoming reliant on foreign businesses who are if not above the law, capable of moving to the place where the law best suits them. And for those who live in the United States, who believe that this current economic boom is to their benefit, wait until you're no longer the dominant market. It won't be long until the countries with billions of people will simply outweigh you in all matters.


Incidentally, I'm arguing from a nationalist perspective, and don't really consider myself a socialist. But without an effective overarching international body of rules for industry to follow, we're simply letting them call all the shots.