NationStates Jolt Archive

I found this interesting today.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,468655,00.html
Nazi War Criminals as Role Models?

A new book co-written by two former German commando leaders hails a Nazi-era elite unit as a role model for the modern German special forces.

Two former commanders of German special forces have been criticized for praising a World War II commando unit as an inspiration for Germany's modern-day elite soldiers.

Former general Reinhard Günzel, head of Germany's KSK elite forces until 2003, wrote in a recently published book "Secret Warriors": "The commando soldiers know exactly where their roots lie." The missions of the Wehrmacht's Brandenburg division (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburgers) had been "legendary" among his troops, writes Günzel, who was fired in 2003 for praising a speech by a conservative member of parliament who had referred to Jews as a "race of perpetrators."

The book's co-author Ulrich Wegener, who founded Germany's GSG9 anti-terrorism unit in the 1970s, writes that comradeship and esprit de corps "could be learned especially from the Brandenburgers."

The comments were criticised by Hans-Peter Bartels, a member of the German parliament's defence committee. "If the picture of the KSK being painted in the book is true, then some changes need to be made in the army's special forces," he told DER SPIEGEL.

The KSK forces, comparable to the US Delta Force or Britain's SAS, appear to be "full of contempt for the effeminate world of civilians and for the rest of the army," said Bartels.

The Brandenburg commando unit was formed in 1939 as an arm of the intelligence service within the regular Wehrmacht army. It was tasked with covert operations behind enemy lines, such as seizing strategic bridges and tunnels.

Its units operated in almost all fronts and took part in the invasions of Poland, Denmark, the Netherlands, France, Russia and Greece. The Brandenburg division operated outside the Hague Convention on land war -- as did special forces from other countries -- because its soldiers were often disguised as civilians or enemy troops.

Are they right, or aren't they?

The modern German Army makes it very clear that it is not a follow-up organisation of the Wehrmacht. It sees itself as a completely new military, drawing inspiration only from some of the big names of the Prussian military and the conspirators of the 20th of July.

I should also mention two more things:

Firstly, Ulrich Wegener is a bit of a legend in that industry. As it says he founded the GSG-9, there are rumours he took part in Operation Entebbe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Entebbe) and he was a member of the SAS. It's also said that he may well have personally executed the hijackers of the Landshut (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landshut_%28hijacking%29). So in so far that he's got experience in the commando industry, he's not just some random.

And secondly, there have been reports in recent times of KSK operators getting involved in unsavoury activities, particularly with regards to a Mr. Kurnaz (http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,443493,00.html), who was detained in Pakistan and then visited and mistreated by KSK soldiers before being sent to Gitmo.

Can special forces be seen in the same light as normal troops? Do they have to be particularly ruthless and outside the normal conventions? And in which light can the Wehrmacht be seen? Is it acceptable that the Bundeswehr acknowledge that in some respects the Wehrmacht was a very capable sort of organisation? Is it acceptable to see it as a sort of inspiration?

Well, I'd be at least nice if the Germans got their spine back for war and helped us in Afgahnistan. The Germans should be allowed to be patriotic and have a powerful military, without being labeld facists and nazis. However its good that they dont want to relate their new military to the wermacht. But really, they took on all of europe twice, they know what'll happen if they try it again.....however the Germans have always been stubborn.....

Well, I'd be at least nice if the Germans got their spine back for war and helped us in Afgahnistan.

I was under the impression that they already do.
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htun/articles/20050930.aspx


The Germans should be allowed to be patriotic and have a powerful military, without being labeld facists and nazis.

They are allowed. They just know better.

The only thing we are not allowed are submarines big enough for carrying strategic missiles.

However, I agree that KSK shouldn't run around and refer back to that Wehrmacht's special forces, though I have my own views about the Bundeswehr, they really are a complete new military and have nothing to do with the Wehrmacht.

So, yeah, I think a few people should just start thinking before writing or opening their mouths, as men in their position should always do.
*shakes head*

They just know better.No they don't. Polling late last year revealed something like 40% of the population would prefer a strong leader (tm) to their democratic government. And no, it wasn't just southern East Germans, it was a nation wide thing. If my memory isn't completely dead, Der Spiegel ran a major article on it so you can prolly find it there if you search around. Was in October or November.

As for the topic; of course they're right. The allied countries actively sought out & imported Nazis commandos in the aftermath of WWII for the same reason. Sure, counter-terrorism/anti-terrorism is virtually always a euphemism for butchering dissidents & other undesirables, but there's no doubt it's effective & even less doubt the Nazis were masters of it.

The criticism is hypocritical as hell.

The Germans should be allowed to be patriotic and have a powerful military, without being labeld facists and nazis.Do you imply that patriotism has anything to do with military? Patriotism is the love for the country, but not necessarily its government or military strength. I know, that is something Americans have not understood yet.

Do you imply that patriotism has anything to do with military? Patriotism is the love for the country, but not necessarily its government or military strength. I know, that is something Americans have not understood yet.They just don't differetiate between patriotism & jingoism. Not that we do it in practice either. Perhaps it's to the USs credit. However inadvertedly, it's a lot more honest.

No they don't. Polling late last year revealed something like 40% of the population would prefer a strong leader (tm) to their democratic government. And no, it wasn't just southern East Germans, it was a nation wide thing. If my memory isn't completely dead, Der Spiegel ran a major article on it so you can prolly find it there if you search around. Was in October or November.

As for the topic; of course they're right. The allied countries actively sought out & imported Nazis commandos in the aftermath of WWII for the same reason. Sure, counter-terrorism/anti-terrorism is virtually always a euphemism for butchering dissidents & other undesirables, but there's no doubt it's effective & even less doubt the Nazis were masters of it.

The criticism is hypocritical as hell.Desire for strong leadership may also come from the experience that the current leadership is so strangely quiet and does not display distinguishable politics or policies.

Desire for strong leadership may also come from the experience that the current leadership is so strangely quiet and does not display distinguishable politics or policies.Or more likely; from the unfortunate situation that the sheer complexity of national politics are so fucking complicated, no one really understand what's going on.

Or more likely; from the unfortunate situation that the sheer complexity of national politics are so fucking complicated, no one really understand what's going on.Well. No. The problem is that since the grand coalition is in power there is no more open debate about any issues. Everything is pre-decided behind closed doors and the parliament later only nods these decisions through.

Well. No.Right. I'm convinced.

What are you talking about?

EDIT: Your post didn't say that when I quoted it :p

I still think I'm right though. Germans have been moving right all over the political spectrum for some time now, far longer than the fairly recent coalition has been in power. Now I might be wrong, but I doubt the "longing for dady" trend isn't part of that.

No they don't. Polling late last year revealed something like 40% of the population would prefer a strong leader (tm) to their democratic government. And no, it wasn't just southern East Germans, it was a nation wide thing. If my memory isn't completely dead, Der Spiegel ran a major article on it so you can prolly find it there if you search around. Was in October or November.

As for the topic; of course they're right. The allied countries actively sought out & imported Nazis commandos in the aftermath of WWII for the same reason. Sure, counter-terrorism/anti-terrorism is virtually always a euphemism for butchering dissidents & other undesirables, but there's no doubt it's effective & even less doubt the Nazis were masters of it.

The criticism is hypocritical as hell.

And feeling that they'd be happier with that relates to being patriotic or having a strong military how exactly?

And feeling that they'd be happier with that relates to being patriotic or having a strong military how exactly?There's the move to the right I mentioned (probably while you were writing this post), as well as precedent. Proponents of fascism tend to be jingoists, as do fascist leadership.

There's the move to the right I mentioned (probably while you were writing this post), as well as precedent. Proponents of fascism tend to be jingoists, as do fascist leadership.

I'm usually happily the first to call Germans jingoist and fascist, but in this case I think you're taking your interpretation of that statistical data a tiny bit too far.

Calling for a strong leader doesn't necessarily equate to calling for a fascist overlord, although the line can be thin. My impression is that the Germans on the whole feel that their government is not effcient in dealing with the current economic problems, and not clear and open enough in its approach. Last time I visited, people were pining for the good old days during the Kohl era, not those of the 3rd Reich...

http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,446365,00.html

That's the survey in question.

It's funny how the Germans get so distraught when someone says that something today has its roots in that era, even when it's true. You can't ignore historical fact, whether you like it or not. It's no big secret that most of the worlds modern tactics and weapons are derived from German advances in weapons and tactics up to and during WWII. We certainly would not have been launching satellites and astronauts without stolen German missle and rocket technology. Atleast, not as early as we did.

The people and ideologies are certainly not the same today as they were then, but the tactics, training, weapons are all based on principles established in that unpopular segment of history.

Although the Kohl era really is the cause for most of the current problems. After all, Kohl bought the unification.

I won't deny that. I'd say some of his politics were the very cause of many of the problems Germany is having today. But those problems only surfaced after he'd been voted out of office, and so it's Schroeder who gets the blame, and Merkel who gets the distrust.

I'm usually happily the first to call Germans jingoist and fascist, but in this case I think you're taking your interpretation of that statistical data a tiny bit too far.

Calling for a strong leader doesn't necessarily equate to calling for a fascist overlord, although the line can be thin. My impression is that the Germans on the whole feel that their government is not effcient in dealing with the current economic problems, and not clear and open enough in its approach. Last time I visited, people were pining for the good old days during the Kohl era, not those of the 3rd Reich...
Although the Kohl era really is the cause for most of the current problems. After all, Kohl bought the unification and a few more things (EU, 1st Saddam war).

Thanks Neu Leonstein. The article was very different though, but perhaps my memory's faulty & it wasn't in Der Spiegel. Regardless, good of you to do my homework :)

I'm usually happily the first to call Germans jingoist and fascist, but in this case I think you're taking your interpretation of that statistical data a tiny bit too far.

Calling for a strong leader doesn't necessarily equate to calling for a fascist overlord, although the line can be thin. My impression is that the Germans on the whole feel that their government is not effcient in dealing with the current economic problems, and not clear and open enough in its approach. Last time I visited, people were pining for the good old days during the Kohl era, not those of the 3rd Reich...I'm not convinced. No doubt the crowd I visit in Germany isn't indicative of Germans in general, but never the less, decreased respect for & tolerance of them does say something about Germans in general - and that's been the trend over the last 5 years.

Less anecdotal though, the article I read represented the survey vastly different than the article NL linked to. The 'strong leader' people were polled about was to replace democracy, not simply be a strong chancellor. Thus I'm pretty sure I'm not being unfair when talking about fascism & jingoism.
My personal experience of Germany & it's peoples is limited to progressive lefties & post-lefties, so please don't think I have some sort of grudge or isn't as surprised as you. I mean, unlike a lot of people, the first thing I associate with Germany isn't Nazism or WWII, it's Kaos Tage, Czech punkers fleeing the draft & legalized squats. Legalized. Not something you'd expect if the society on the whole's sliding into the fascist abyss.

Society on a whole is definitely not sliding into a 'fascist abyss'.