NationStates Jolt Archive

This weekend I drove down to Philadelphia to visit some old friends and partake in some good, solid boozing. Friday night I ended up at a rehearsal for a skit my old room mate from Freshman year was putting together for a "Praise Night" the next night at his local religious center.

I should probably add that he's a very devout Christian, and a good buddy. So I ended up there, with little else to do, and decided to sit through their rehearsals and give what constructive criticism I could provide. My initial reaction to the skit was that, while it was flashy, it had a powerful message. Not that I'd convert over a single bloody skit, but that wasn't the point. But then it got to a point in the skit that started flashing symbols of "wrong choices" to make in the world, instead of making the choice for Christ.

For those of you don't know this already, I'm Indian. I'm a lapsed Hindu, but I still believe a lot of the stuff that Hinduism puts forward (much of the civil liberty stuff and very little of the god stuff, and absolutely none of the caste stuff).

Well, one of the symbols there happened to be the Om symbol. Sandwiched right between the Swastika and the Communist symbol. The first time I saw it there I was totally shocked. I mean, the Om is, at its heart, a symbol of universal piece and unity. It's the "all in one". And up until a few years ago it was a divine symbol to me.

As I watched them rehearse a few more times, I got angrier and angrier. That they would suggest that this symbol of my people was no better than a bastardized piece symbol that had been twisted into a symbol of hate, and another representation for a communist regime that had been the "Big Bad Wolf" to most of the non-Communist world.

I confronted him about it after practice, when we were alone. He evaded the question, but it was clear that he agreed that it belonged there. Which left me even more infuriated.

Am I overreacting? Or were they wrong to put it there?

This weekend I drove down to Philadelphia to visit some old friends and partake in some good, solid boozing. Friday night I ended up at a rehearsal for a skit my old room mate from Freshman year was putting together for a "Praise Night" the next night at his local religious center.

I should probably add that he's a very devout Christian, and a good buddy. So I ended up there, with little else to do, and decided to sit through their rehearsals and give what constructive criticism I could provide. My initial reaction to the skit was that, while it was flashy, it had a powerful message. Not that I'd convert over a single bloody skit, but that wasn't the point. But then it got to a point in the skit that started flashing symbols of "wrong choices" to make in the world, instead of making the choice for Christ.

For those of you don't know this already, I'm Indian. I'm a lapsed Hindu, but I still believe a lot of the stuff that Hinduism puts forward (much of the civil liberty stuff and very little of the god stuff, and absolutely none of the caste stuff).

Well, one of the symbols there happened to be the Om symbol. Sandwiched right between the Swastika and the Communist symbol. The first time I saw it there I was totally shocked. I mean, the Om is, at its heart, a symbol of universal piece and unity. It's the "all in one". And up until a few years ago it was a divine symbol to me.

As I watched them rehearse a few more times, I got angrier and angrier. That they would suggest that this symbol of my people was no better than a bastardized piece symbol that had been twisted into a symbol of hate, and another representation for a communist regime that had been the "Big Bad Wolf" to most of the non-Communist world.

I confronted him about it after practice, when we were alone. He evaded the question, but it was clear that he agreed that it belonged there. Which left me even more infuriated.

Am I overreacting? Or were they wrong to put it there?

Well it is wrong to place all "non christians" in one group along with the communists and nazis. What branch is he?

It's all him. And you made the right decision by confronting him privately. If he feels he has to be one of those Christians who actively discourages and discriminates against other religions, then it's his fault if he alienates people. And if one of those people is his own friend, then it's up to him to resolve the situation. I'd say that if he considers religious bigotry to be more important than respecting you, then maybe he's not the best friend in the world to have. You've made your feelings known, so it's really up to him at this point.

Even moderate christians are implicitly bigoted. It is written into the exclusivist nature of the religion. He can like you, he can be your friend, but at the end of the day, you are a lost soul under the sway of the lies of the devil, and you will go to hell for this.

Well it is wrong to place all "non christians" in one group along with the communists and nazis. What branch is he?

Non-denominational.

Even moderate christians are implicitly bigoted. It is written into the exclusivist nature of the religion. He can like you, he can be your friend, but at the end of the day, you are a lost soul under the sway of the lies of the devil, and you will go to hell for this.

I don't know if it's even that, though. I mean, first he didn't actually design the visuals, though he was involved in the editorial process. And I've been his friend for years. I wonder if it's just inconsiderate, but it feels deliberate. Especially since the university he goes to (and that I used to go to) has a large Hindu population.

I don't know if it's even that, though. I mean, first he didn't actually design the visuals, though he was involved in the editorial process. And I've been his friend for years. I wonder if it's just inconsiderate, but it feels deliberate. Especially since the university he goes to (and that I used to go to) has a large Hindu population.
It'd be understandable, albeit a bit ignorant of him, if he simply didn't know what the symbol represented and just included it because it looked... "unorthodox", or whatever. But if he insists on including it even after you explain how offensive it is to you and your beliefs, then that reflects pretty badly on his priorities.

It'd be understandable, albeit a bit ignorant of him, if he simply didn't know what the symbol represented and just included it because it looked... "unorthodox", or whatever. But if he insists on including it even after you explain how offensive it is to you and your beliefs, then that reflects pretty badly on his priorities.

I was more amazed that he would place a religious symbol there. Especially THAT religious symbol. It's about piece, unity, and harmony. When you strip away the holier-than-thou, isn't that what MOST religions are about?

Edit: And there were other symbols he could have placed. Even other Indian religious symbols.

Even moderate christians are implicitly bigoted. It is written into the exclusivist nature of the religion. He can like you, he can be your friend, but at the end of the day, you are a lost soul under the sway of the lies of the devil, and you will go to hell for this.

It seems I must now reciprocate with the QFT.

It seems I must now reciprocate with the QFT.

as much as it's not the nicest thing to hear, I have to admit, he is right. :(

It's all him. And you made the right decision by confronting him privately. If he feels he has to be one of those Christians who actively discourages and discriminates against other religions, then it's his fault if he alienates people. And if one of those people is his own friend, then it's up to him to resolve the situation. I'd say that if he considers religious bigotry to be more important than respecting you, then maybe he's not the best friend inn the world to have. You've made your feelings known, so it's really up to him at this point.

I agree completely, you did the right thing by not making a scene and talking to hime about it afterwards. Hopefully he can understand why you were hurt by this and apolagize... at the end of the day if he wants to be your friend then he will.

Even moderate christians are implicitly bigoted. It is written into the exclusivist nature of the religion. He can like you, he can be your friend, but at the end of the day, you are a lost soul under the sway of the lies of the devil, and you will go to hell for this.

I wouldnt go quite that far. For example I am currently attending a Catholic school, personally I am not a religious person, and while certain people may come across that way the vast majority of them truely don't care and I have never felt that I was excluded by them in any way (well except for the whole Church thing but who can help that).

I wouldnt go quite that far. For example I am currently attending a Catholic school, personally I am not a religious person, and while certain people may come across that way the vast majority of them truely don't care and I have never felt that I was excluded by them in any way (well except for the whole Church thing but who can help that).

he wasn't talking about exclusion, and if they are really Christians they should care.

I can get along with people all day long, I can be nice, but at the end of the day it comes down to, do I really believe what I say I do, or not?

i say kick his scrawny conservative christian ass!!

as much as it's not the nicest thing to hear, I have to admit, he is right. :(

It's something I never forget in my dealings with Christians, or similar type religions. I'm never quite worth as a person in their eyes, so I have to remember not to be affected when they, and you, show it.

Even moderate christians are implicitly bigoted. It is written into the exclusivist nature of the religion. He can like you, he can be your friend, but at the end of the day, you are a lost soul under the sway of the lies of the devil, and you will go to hell for this.

Sadly, this is an accurate assessment.

Am I overreacting? Or were they wrong to put it there?

You have to see the evangelistic literature on Hinduism that they distribute in places like tribal areas of NE India and rural Tamil Nadu etc. Apparently we all worship penis :D

Even the literature in local textbooks in the US on Hinduism has many disgusting biases. Search for California text book controversy and you will see.

It's something I never forget in my dealings with Christians, or similar type religions. I'm never quite worth as a person in their eyes, so I have to remember not to be affected when they, and you, show it.

With the exception of a JW and a friend of mine whose piety annoys me significantly less than her lack of knowledge of her own religion, I've never had much of a problem with my Christian friends. Up until now. I've never even seen much of the holier-than-thou attitude in the people I know personally, though I've seen it often in the news and such.

This is sad. I'm a Secular Humanist raised by Jews and a Buddhist Nun. That ANYONE could insult the OM symbol fills me with disgust and sadness. That something that pure could be so defiled....I just don't know what to say.

This is sad. I'm a Secular Humanist raised by Jews and a Buddhist Nun. That ANYONE could insult the OM symbol fills me with disgust and sadness. That something that pure could be so defiled....I just don't know what to say.

Welcome to the club, Baptists from a messed up private shcool thought I was the devil for independent thought and because of my Asperger's syndrome. They did whatever it took to piss me off.

It's all him. And you made the right decision by confronting him privately. If he feels he has to be one of those Christians who actively discourages and discriminates against other religions, then it's his fault if he alienates people. And if one of those people is his own friend, then it's up to him to resolve the situation. I'd say that if he considers religious bigotry to be more important than respecting you, then maybe he's not the best friend inn the world to have. You've made your feelings known, so it's really up to him at this point.
Exactly.

This is sad. I'm a Secular Humanist raised by Jews and a Buddhist Nun. That ANYONE could insult the OM symbol fills me with disgust and sadness. That something that pure could be so defiled....I just don't know what to say.

The part that I dont understand is how the OM symbol could be thrown in with a Swastica and a Hammer & Sickle. That absolutely disgusts me and I hope that whoever's idea this was realizes their mistake at some point.

a symbol of universal piece

a bastardized piece symbol

Which piece of the universe is it a symbol of? And why is that piece bastardized? ;)

I confronted him about it after practice, when we were alone. He evaded the question, but it was clear that he agreed that it belonged there. Which left me even more infuriated.

Am I overreacting? Or were they wrong to put it there?

As we Buddhist use it as well, I'd also be upset. But I think you seem to have handled it well. :)

The next time he comes for a visit to your place, why not transpose it for him with the hammer and sickle, svastika, and crucifix.

Which piece of the universe is it a symbol of? And why is that piece bastardized? ;)

D'oh. Need to lrn 2 english

As we Buddhist use it as well, I'd also be upset. But I think you seem to have handled it well. :)

The next time he comes for a visit to your place, why not transpose it for him with the hammer and sickle, svastika, and crucifix.

I'm not in a particularly vengeful mood about it, though I'm sure he wouldn't miss the point I'd be trying to make by doing that.

This weekend I drove down to Philadelphia to visit some old friends and partake in some good, solid boozing. Friday night I ended up at a rehearsal for a skit my old room mate from Freshman year was putting together for a "Praise Night" the next night at his local religious center.

I should probably add that he's a very devout Christian, and a good buddy. So I ended up there, with little else to do, and decided to sit through their rehearsals and give what constructive criticism I could provide. My initial reaction to the skit was that, while it was flashy, it had a powerful message. Not that I'd convert over a single bloody skit, but that wasn't the point. But then it got to a point in the skit that started flashing symbols of "wrong choices" to make in the world, instead of making the choice for Christ.

For those of you don't know this already, I'm Indian. I'm a lapsed Hindu, but I still believe a lot of the stuff that Hinduism puts forward (much of the civil liberty stuff and very little of the god stuff, and absolutely none of the caste stuff).

Well, one of the symbols there happened to be the Om symbol. Sandwiched right between the Swastika and the Communist symbol. The first time I saw it there I was totally shocked. I mean, the Om is, at its heart, a symbol of universal piece and unity. It's the "all in one". And up until a few years ago it was a divine symbol to me.

As I watched them rehearse a few more times, I got angrier and angrier. That they would suggest that this symbol of my people was no better than a bastardized piece symbol that had been twisted into a symbol of hate, and another representation for a communist regime that had been the "Big Bad Wolf" to most of the non-Communist world.

I confronted him about it after practice, when we were alone. He evaded the question, but it was clear that he agreed that it belonged there. Which left me even more infuriated.

Am I overreacting? Or were they wrong to put it there?

No, I've studied religions for a while and I believe that you are right to be angry but by the way you put it they seemed ignorant to teh fact it may ahve insulted you or others.

Yes I would be really mad about that too. I'm a Yogini. I have jewelry and clothing with Ohm on it I don't want people thinking I'm evil because I practice Yoga.

God I'm glad I'm Catholic, I really am. The only thing we're associated with is peodphile priest and being behind the times for about 20-30 years. They're not good or anything, but eh.

I don't want people thinking I'm evil because I practice Yoga.

Too late. There's plenty of so-called Christians out there who think exactly that. I'm not just saying that - I've actually met some of them. Scary, scary people.
And Wilgrove, I hate to break it to you, but the first group of 'yoga is evil' people I met were Catholics. They were a home prayer group that used to meet at my next door neighbour's place.

Back to the OP. Your friend has an important decision to make. One of indoctrination vs friendship and common sense. If indoctrination wins, it's really up to you to decide whether that spells the end of your friendship. Just how offended are you?

To the OP: no you are not overreacting. As pretty much everyone else has already said,you handled the situation maturely and well.

Even moderate christians are implicitly bigoted. It is written into the exclusivist nature of the religion. He can like you, he can be your friend, but at the end of the day, you are a lost soul under the sway of the lies of the devil, and you will go to hell for this.

I wholeheartedly disagree. I consider myself a Christian. I was raised in the Catholic church and while I am constantly questioning various aspects of my faith. But I don't think anyone is going to Hell because they believe something different from me. I don't believe non-Catholics and non-Christians are under the sway of lies of the devil. I think they have different experiences that have led them to different to conclusions, and (literally) I'll be damned if I'm going to judge those conclusions. The only people I think are going to hell for being trapped by the lies of Satan are those who believe it is okay to kill in the name of a Higher Power.

It's something I never forget in my dealings with Christians, or similar type religions. I'm never quite worth as a person in their eyes, so I have to remember not to be affected when they, and you, show it.
I can speak for no one but myself. But as I said, I wholeheartedly disagree with his conclusions and it saddens me deeply that everyone else seems to agree with him. Perhaps I am naive, or not a real Christian. But at the risk of seeming disgustingly preachy, I believe that God is Love, and therefore God lives within anyone who has and uses the capacity to love. And in my naivety it hurts me that people would see you as less of a person. Though it may be meaningless to you, I want to assure you that you have as much worth to me as every other generalite who is fundamentally a good person.


The next time he comes for a visit to your place, why not transpose it for him with the hammer and sickle, svastika, and crucifix.

An unfortunately appropriate symbol, unfortunately, given all the killings and torture committed in the name of a man (or God?) who taught to turn the other cheek and to love one another.

It's something I never forget in my dealings with Christians, or similar type religions. I'm never quite worth as a person in their eyes, so I have to remember not to be affected when they, and you, show it.

Well I mean of course. After all, us Christians share exactly the same views as one another. It's all part of the hive-mind we share :rolleyes:

Look, before I continue I will state that no, the OP did not go too far in expressing his view. It was ignorant of them to put up a religious symbol as being bad that could only be seen as such in the eyes of a fundie and the OP had every right to express his disgust.

My problem is not with that. It's with the replies that are along the lines of "even modern Christians are bigoted".

See, when you come across a person who hates others because of their race, religion, sexual preference or otherwise, and they happen to be Christian, the problem is not that they're Christian.

The problem is that they suffer from a case of stupidity. Studpidity is a terrible condition and plagues people of all races and creeds.

Something I will also point out is that the majority of cases presented on this board in which Christians are behaving like douchebags take place in the U.S. As an Australian, the worst case of religious evangelism I've seen is a woman going door to door with Jehova's witnesses leaflets, not even going inside.

I dunno, maybe there's something in the water that makes American Christians behave the way they behave. I'm just sick of seeing generalist accusations being made in every damn post involving Christianity on these boards.

Well, that's my rant for the day and I feel much better.

It's something I never forget in my dealings with Christians, or similar type religions. I'm never quite worth as a person in their eyes, so I have to remember not to be affected when they, and you, show it.

I think it is worth pointing out that there are a fair few christians out there who do not hold the position of those you have encountered. Both in terms of needing to convert or viewing people as lost souls and in terms of regarding homosexuals as just as human as the rest of us.

I think it is worth pointing out that there are a fair few christians out there who do not hold the position of those you have encountered. Both in terms of needing to convert or viewing people as lost souls and in terms of regarding homosexuals as just as human as the rest of us.
There are?

I have no problem with Christians themselves, but all of my christian friends come out with "The only way to be saved is to embrace Jesus Christ as the only Lord and saviour" crap at some stage, although it may require some prodding on your behalf. I know that deep down while they might be great people and we get along really well, they have some reservations about me and think i'm a "lost soul". Even if they don't normally show it openly.

Try asking one if they think you're going to hell. ;)

There are?

I have no problem with Christians themselves, but all of my christian friends come out with "The only way to be saved is to embrace Jesus Christ as the only Lord and saviour" crap at some stage, although it may require some prodding on your behalf. I know that deep down while they might be great people and we get along really well, they have some reservations about me and think i'm a "lost soul". Even if they don't normally show it openly.

Try asking one if they think you're going to hell. ;)
I do not believe that, and nor would I ever say that. My fiance is not of that view either. My parents and siblings do not hold that view. None of my friends who are christians hold that view. Actually I can only think of two people I know - neither of which are friends of mine - who subscribe to that sort of belief.

Maybe things are different in the US and Sweden than they are in the UK, or maybe I just know the only christians in the world who are like this. Or maybe the people like the christians you describe are much more vocal and so appear to make up a much larger section of society than they do.

I am sure those christians might not view me as a good Christian - but frankly I don't really care for the opinions of people like that.

Or maybe the people like the christians you describe are much more vocal and so appear to make up a much larger section of society than they do.

I am sure those christians might not view me as a good Christian - but frankly I don't really care for the opinions of people like that.

Both those statments warrant a QFT.

It's something I never forget in my dealings with Christians, or similar type religions. I'm never quite worth as a person in their eyes, so I have to remember not to be affected when they, and you, show it.

I don't think you are less worthy, because I am not worthy at all, and you can't get lower than that.

However, I do worry about my friends and people I know, and people I don't know....because at the base of the thing, I do believe that there is a decision to be made.

This weekend I drove down to Philadelphia to visit some old friends and partake in some good, solid boozing. Friday night I ended up at a rehearsal for a skit my old room mate from Freshman year was putting together for a "Praise Night" the next night at his local religious center.

I should probably add that he's a very devout Christian, and a good buddy. So I ended up there, with little else to do, and decided to sit through their rehearsals and give what constructive criticism I could provide. My initial reaction to the skit was that, while it was flashy, it had a powerful message. Not that I'd convert over a single bloody skit, but that wasn't the point. But then it got to a point in the skit that started flashing symbols of "wrong choices" to make in the world, instead of making the choice for Christ.

For those of you don't know this already, I'm Indian. I'm a lapsed Hindu, but I still believe a lot of the stuff that Hinduism puts forward (much of the civil liberty stuff and very little of the god stuff, and absolutely none of the caste stuff).

Well, one of the symbols there happened to be the Om symbol. Sandwiched right between the Swastika and the Communist symbol. The first time I saw it there I was totally shocked. I mean, the Om is, at its heart, a symbol of universal piece and unity. It's the "all in one". And up until a few years ago it was a divine symbol to me.

As I watched them rehearse a few more times, I got angrier and angrier. That they would suggest that this symbol of my people was no better than a bastardized piece symbol that had been twisted into a symbol of hate, and another representation for a communist regime that had been the "Big Bad Wolf" to most of the non-Communist world.

I confronted him about it after practice, when we were alone. He evaded the question, but it was clear that he agreed that it belonged there. Which left me even more infuriated.

Am I overreacting? Or were they wrong to put it there?

I happen to agree with you. The ignorance and disdain Christianity consistently displays in dealing with other faiths is galling, even in the more moderately Christian UK.

Disclaimer; This is in no way a reflection upon my views of individual christians. Some, namely Smunkeeville, and a certain Mr.Thomas, my RSS teacher, are devout and decent people, yet remain respectful and open minded.

Well done, you did the right thing. I can't stand Christians who believe that they are superior to other religions and cultures. The Christian message is one of peace and acceptance, not of bigotry and racism.

Am I overreacting? Or were they wrong to put it there?

You're right that it was offensive - to you. And you're right, as you inferred, that they were wrong to put it there.

But you're not going to change them. For a Christian, particularly conservative Christians, it would be a tremendous wrong not to take aim at any religion that doesn't accept Jesus as the son of God, and as the messiah. According to their beliefs, all humans who refuse to accept Jesus as their savior are going to Hell, and their job as Christians is to save the world from such a horrendous fate. They'd be doing you a disservice by not showing you "the truth" as they understand it.

You're not going to change that.

I'm a Buddhist - and on the ordination track, at that. What you might ask instead is why you were offended. What in your faith strikes you as relevant and important? And then you should take a closer look and see whether you apply it to your life, rather than just your identity.

I'm willing to bet if you were stronger in your faith as a Hindu, rather than just Hindu-identified, you'd be less offended, because you'd be less worried about it.