NationStates Jolt Archive

link (http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2007Feb25/0,4670,SlaveryApology,00.html)

Good idea or bad idea?

slavery was a good idea, duh

People in Virginia must be very old to have been around in slave-owning times.

link (http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2007Feb25/0,4670,SlaveryApology,00.html)

Good idea or bad idea?

No! Don't start this again...! :(

No! Don't start this again...! :(

I couldn't find an old thread on this, did I miss it?

This is no more unusual than Virginians, indeed Southerners, who wave the Confederate flag and idolise their ancestors while at the same time calling themselves patriotic Americans (your ancestors were trying to split America up, no?).

I don't think it's such a good idea. I mean, I'm as much for the warm fuzzy and reconciliation and all that as the next guy, but I have a weird feeling that this was being pushed by people who will use it as a precursor to another push for reparations. This resolution could be presented as a sort of "admission of fault" which could, in turn, be used to support a lawsuit for reparations.

I'll feel better if someone acts as a spokesperson and formally accepts this apology.

I couldn't find an old thread on this, did I miss it?

Recently we've had a few prior to the actual statement of regret, back when it was being discussed whether or not to apologize for slavery. You're fine, it's a different topic technically, though I have no doubt after about three pages its going to go back to similar discussions about whether/why we should feel sorry for past grievances, etc.

I believe it all started when someone posted a thread about the congressman writing a memo saying that "Blacks should 'get over' slavery."

I think that people should think about what the future should be like, not apologising for the misdeeds of their ancestors. If everyone was considered responsible for their ancestors' actions, I think just about everyone in the whole world would be sentenced to life in jail.

Apologize by investing more in education and social welfare, rather than just flat reperations. A sappy "We're sorry for slavery and exterminating the native americans so here's a wad of cash." just ain't gonna cut it.

Apologize by investing more in education and social welfare, rather than just flat reperations. A sappy "We're sorry for slavery and exterminating the native americans so here's a wad of cash." just ain't gonna cut it.

I agree that the apology is really m eaningless at this point, but (and no offense is intended by this) phrases like "education and social welfare" sound a little like talking points.

Education and social welfare for whom? Black people only? How is that equal protection? How does that encourage self-reliance and ambition, which are the cornerstones of success? If anything, that would only perpetuate the social problems we already have.

Apologize by investing more in education and social welfare, rather than just flat reperations. A sappy "We're sorry for slavery and exterminating the native americans so here's a wad of cash." just ain't gonna cut it.Well tell that to people who proposed this bill. They seem to think that the best way to alleivate the problems of their fellow black americans is to wring an apology out of the State of Virginia.

Education and social welfare for whom? Black people only?

Where did I say that?

A higher budget for education and welfare in general. Hell, no one can survive off welfare, and public schools (especially urban) are utterly pathetic.

How does that encourage self-reliance and ambition, which are the cornerstones of success? If anything, that would only perpetuate the social problems we already have.

if you invest in education you could asume that people are going to be better educated, wich would give them a better position on the job market. this would make their chances independent of what level of education their parents could afford for them.

Education and social welfare for whom? Black people only? How is that equal protection? How does that encourage self-reliance and ambition, which are the cornerstones of success? If anything, that would only perpetuate the social problems we already have.
So, education isn't a cornerstone of success?

I don't think it's such a good idea. I mean, I'm as much for the warm fuzzy and reconciliation and all that as the next guy, but I have a weird feeling that this was being pushed by people who will use it as a precursor to another push for reparations. This resolution could be presented as a sort of "admission of fault" which could, in turn, be used to support a lawsuit for reparations.

I'll feel better if someone acts as a spokesperson and formally accepts this apology.

If people want reparations then let the Southern states pay for it. After all, they were the ones who had them in bondage and the North that freed them. Why should the North pay in money what we paid in blood to achieve?

Where did I say that?

A higher budget for education and welfare in general. Hell, no one can survive off welfare, and public schools (especially urban) are utterly pathetic.

You didn't say it. I meant that rhetorically.

If people want reparations then let the Southern states pay for it. After all, they were the ones who had them in bondage and the North that freed them. Why should the North pay in money what we paid in blood to achieve?

Virginia is a Southern state.

if you invest in education you could asume that people are going to be better educated, wich would give them a better position on the job market. this would make their chances independent of what level of education their parents could afford for them.

So, education isn't a cornerstone of success?

Of course education is important. What I have a problem with is that when we talk about it as it relates to things like reparations for slavery, people are talking about more money for education and programs for one specific race. If schools are crap, then they ought to be improved regardless of what race attends them. Doing it on the context of slavery reparations implies that only black students somehow are entitled to this phase of "educational improvement."

Mind you, based on what I've seen in this area, simply throwing money at the school districts isn't helping at all. Around here, what's needed is competent management for a change. (And that would help students of all races, and thus has nothing to do with the slavery issue.)

If people want reparations then let the Southern states pay for it. After all, they were the ones who had them in bondage and the North that freed them. Why should the North pay in money what we paid in blood to achieve?

Oh, it's far more complex than that. I'm a first-generation Southerner - my parents are from Pennsylvania. And my great-great-grandfather fought for the North, as did his two brothers; both of his brothers died in the war, one in combat in Missouri, the other as a POW in Andersonville. So by that logic, my family has "paid in blood" as well; why should I then be called upon to cough up the cash?

And if you want a real head-scratcher, one of my wife's great-great-grandfathers was drafted into the Confederate army, then deserted and joined the Union army. So he fought on both sides. So should my wife only have to pay half reparations? (Never mind that her ancestors were not slaveowners; there weren't many slaves in Wilkes County, NC.)

It's ridiculous to try to point a finger at some people as being "guilty" for the crimes of their ancestors, while exonerating others as "innocent". At this point, it's a societal problem, and we as a society have to address it. So paying out "reparations" to individuals is not the way to go. We have to take steps to level the playing field, yes, but not by simply handing out cash to specific people.

Virginia is a Southern state.

WHAT!!!??? REALLY!!?? WOW!!!

No shit sherlock. And they should pay reparations if that gets approved. Just leave PA out of it along with the rest of the Northern States/

Oh, it's far more complex than that. I'm a first-generation Southerner - my parents are from Pennsylvania. And my great-great-grandfather fought for the North, as did his two brothers; both of his brothers died in the war, one in combat in Missouri, the other as a POW in Andersonville. So by that logic, my family has "paid in blood" as well; why should I then be called upon to cough up the cash?

Because you live in the losing south. They lost and now you live there and if the state has to pay reparation....

Oh, it's far more complex than that. I'm a first-generation Southerner - my parents are from Pennsylvania. And my great-great-grandfather fought for the North, as did his two brothers; both of his brothers died in the war, one in combat in Missouri, the other as a POW in Andersonville. So by that logic, my family has "paid in blood" as well; why should I then be called upon to cough up the cash?

And if you want a real head-scratcher, one of my wife's great-great-grandfathers was drafted into the Confederate army, then deserted and joined the Union army. So he fought on both sides. So should my wife only have to pay half reparations? (Never mind that her ancestors were not slaveowners; there weren't many slaves in Wilkes County, NC.)

It's ridiculous to try to point a finger at some people as being "guilty" for the crimes of their ancestors, while exonerating others as "innocent". At this point, it's a societal problem, and we as a society have to address it. So paying out "reparations" to individuals is not the way to go. We have to take steps to level the playing field, yes, but not by simply handing out cash to specific people.

On top of all that, there's the question of "where does it end?" Irish immigrants were horribly treated in the 19th Century. Chinese immigrants in California were made to work in mines and the loss of life was unbelievable. The list goes on and on. Where does it stop? How do you decide who is guilty, as DS said above? And that leads me to my next point:

The whole purpose of a society like this is that people are responsible for their own actions. Nobody gets sent to prison because their father robbed a liquor store. Even if it were to be proven that an ancestor of mine owned slaves (highly unlikely anyway) I still don't owe anybody a cent beyond the debts I've created for myself during my life.

If my parents die in debt I can't be legally compelled to pay their debts. This isn't really any different.

WHAT!!!??? REALLY!!?? WOW!!!

No shit sherlock. And they should pay reparations if that gets approved. Just leave PA out of it along with the rest of the Northern States/

Oh relax. When you say something like this:

If people want reparations then let the Southern states pay for it. After all, they were the ones who had them in bondage and the North that freed them. Why should the North pay in money what we paid in blood to achieve?


It sounded like you were suggesting somehow that VA is a northern state. The reparations argument is generally at the state level (around here, at least) and so even if it were to go through, the north wouldn't have anything to do with it.

On the other hand, if you're referring to reparations on a national level, then I agree with you.

This is silly. My ancestors were abolitionists. They spent money to buy slaves and then freed them and helped them find work. I don't see people demanding that my relatives and I be reimbursed for this. If ancestors of white slave owners are supposed to apologize for slavery, then the ancestors of slaves freed by abolitionists need to thank and reimburse their descendents. It should cut both ways or not at all.

Because you live in the losing south. They lost and now you live there and if the state has to pay reparation....

So, you hold that collective guilt is geographical rather than cultural or genetic?

As philosophies go, that's a new one. Congratulations; it's not every day that somebody comes up with a genuinely new interpretation of an age-old philosophical problem. A few questions, though: If somebody can become responsible for the past deeds of others simply by moving to the area where the deeds were committed, can those who committed the deeds clear themselves of responsibility simply by moving away? And why is responsibility necessarily shared at the state level, rather than the national, or county, or city level?

:rolleyes:

This is silly. My ancestors were abolitionists. They spent money to buy slaves and then freed them and helped them find work. I don't see people demanding that my relatives and I be reimbursed for this. If ancestors of white slave owners are supposed to apologize for slavery, then the ancestors of slaves freed by abolitionists need to thank and reimburse their descendents. It should cut both ways or not at all.

That's a damn interesting point...

link (http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2007Feb25/0,4670,SlaveryApology,00.html)

Good idea or bad idea?

They finally did it, huh?

This is no more unusual than Virginians, indeed Southerners, who wave the Confederate flag and idolise their ancestors while at the same time calling themselves patriotic Americans (your ancestors were trying to split America up, no?).

Virginians don't do that nearly as often as North Carolinians, not even in the nowhere-zones... :eek:

Because you live in the losing south. They lost and now you live there and if the state has to pay reparation....

Good thing I live in NC and not Virginia. Though I am only a few miles away.... :eek:

If people want reparations then let the Southern states pay for it. After all, they were the ones who had them in bondage and the North that freed them. Why should the North pay in money what we paid in blood to achieve?
The North only freed people in non-Union states. Try again, Skippy.

unanimous, eh? what happened to the 'get over it' contingent?

unanimous, eh? what happened to the 'get over it' contingent?

They wanted to get re-elected, and this was the safe bet.

They wanted to get re-elected, and this was the safe bet.

if so that's an excellent sign

The North only freed people in non-Union states. Try again, Skippy.

And if you want to look at it from another POV, they never left the Union to begin with. Besides, they are states now so what I say remains true. If the Blacks want reparations, let them get it from Virginia, North and South Carolina, Florida, Tennessee, Alabama, Arkansas, Texas, Mississippi, Louisiana and anyother confed state I missed.

The North has paid enough for their freedom.