NationStates Jolt Archive

So. I'm watching "Most Haunted Live:Transylvania" on Living TV at the moment. For those of you who don't know, it's a program investigating paranormal thingamies. They try to communicate with the dead in certain locations, using vigils, ouija boards and seances. However, as much as I watch this programme, and others like it, I'm never convinced by the by any of the "experiences" they encounter, and hence remain a skeptic. Firstly, do any of you watch this programme, or any others like it? Secondly, do you believe in ghosts? Why? Anyone had any experiences?

I believe in ghosts, and I do believe that some of them may be disembodied conscious minds. I've read about and experienced things that I can't explain any other way.

At the same time, however, I do believe that paranormal phenomena are misunderstood aspects of the physical world rather than any kind of transcendent forces; I believe life after death and things of that nature are both highly likely to exist or definitely exist and that they do have physical explanations and mechanisms that we can one day discover and study more closely. The paranormal is a protoscience; we lack the kind of tools and knowledge in other fields to really investigate it beyond a certain point, but we are getting closer.

Paranormal phenomena represent a possible consilience between the physical, biological, and paranormal sciences as well as the social sciences that can study how these natural phenomena affect human cultures.

Bah. Ghosts aren't dead people. They're just energy beings subject to the laws of quantum mechanics. And it's only a conjecture.
If they do exist, it would be impossible for them to talk to us or interact with us because their nature is so different. They can only interact with us as much as weak forms of energy can interact with matter. It would take a powerful being to be able to contact the living from the "dead" side of things.

I've experienced a couple of things in my 30 years on this planet that one could call supernatural. Not so sure about ghosts, but there are things that science cannot fully explain (yet, if ever). So I'm not ruling it out, although I wouldn't call myself credulous, either.

I believe in ghosts, and I do believe that some of them may be disembodied conscious minds. I've read about and experienced things that I can't explain any other way.

At the same time, however, I do believe that paranormal phenomena are misunderstood aspects of the physical world rather than any kind of transcendent forces; I believe life after death and things of that nature are both highly likely to exist or definitely exist and that they do have physical explanations and mechanisms that we can one day discover and study more closely. The paranormal is a protoscience; we lack the kind of tools and knowledge in other fields to really investigate it beyond a certain point, but we are getting closer.

Paranormal phenomena represent a possible consilience between the physical, biological, and paranormal sciences as well as the social sciences that can study how these natural phenomena affect human cultures.

But confirmation is always important. The only way to confirm a supernatural encounter, is to rule out all physical, natural possibilities. Once you have ruled out everything, then you can say with certainty that you have had a ghostly encounter.

I've seen bits of Most Haunted Live, even saw some last night. Not a bad show but they all jump and scream so easily.

In regards "do ghosts exist"? I think you could probably put me in the open minded skeptic catagory. I don't know they exist, but am not convinced they do either.

I used to live in a house that had a 'ghost', which I used to watch as it walked up and down the stairs from time to time, and often it continued up to the attic (walking through the closed attic door). I call it a ghost because I had no idea what it really was, but it looked like a person shaped shadow, it moved like a person, it wasn't tangible and made no noise.

As to whether I believe it was the spirit of a former human haunting us? Well, really I have no idea what the heck it was. It never did anything but walk up or down stairs on rare occasions, never bothered us, and as far as I know, I was the only one who noticed it. If it had some sinister purpose, it missed entirely as it didn't frighten me at all. If it was just stuck there, well, how dull is that, to spend an eternity walking up and down stairs.

a shadow person?

I used to live in a house that had a 'ghost', which I used to watch as it walked up and down the stairs from time to time, and often it continued up to the attic (walking through the closed attic door). I call it a ghost because I had no idea what it really was, but it looked like a person shaped shadow, it moved like a person, it wasn't tangible and made no noise.

As to whether I believe it was the spirit of a former human haunting us? Well, really I have no idea what the heck it was. It never did anything but walk up or down stairs on rare occasions, never bothered us, and as far as I know, I was the only one who noticed it. If it had some sinister purpose, it missed entirely as it didn't frighten me at all. If it was just stuck there, well, how dull is that, to spend an eternity walking up and down stairs.

So. I'm watching "Most Haunted Live:Transylvania" on Living TV at the moment. For those of you who don't know, it's a program investigating paranormal thingamies. They try to communicate with the dead in certain locations, using vigils, ouija boards and seances. However, as much as I watch this programme, and others like it, I'm never convinced by the by any of the "experiences" they encounter, and hence remain a skeptic. Firstly, do any of you watch this programme, or any others like it? Not shows like that. I do watch Ghost Hunters (http://http://www.scifi.com/ghosthunters/), they seem to be less full of crap than shows like the one you mention. I think I have seen parts of the show you mention, I usually get disgusted and change the channel with some of their stuff.

Secondly, do you believe in ghosts? Why? Anyone had any experiences?
I don't like to say "I believe in ghosts" because that seems to imply you believe in all that other seance and ouija board stuff too. I have had unusual experiences that I can't explain. I do think there are phenomenon that can't be readily explained by the state of our knowledge today. But I'm not going to start believing in oujia boards or pixies or start collecting crystals because some weird stuff happens.

So. I'm watching "Most Haunted Live:Transylvania" on Living TV at the moment. For those of you who don't know, it's a program investigating paranormal thingamies. They try to communicate with the dead in certain locations, using vigils, ouija boards and seances. However, as much as I watch this programme, and others like it, I'm never convinced by the by any of the "experiences" they encounter, and hence remain a skeptic. Firstly, do any of you watch this programme, or any others like it? Secondly, do you believe in ghosts? Why? Anyone had any experiences?

The sister watches it, as it apparently has a camp attraction to it. In particular, the scouser who "channels" - a large nugget of comedy gold by all accounts.

I believe in ghosts, and I do believe that some of them may be disembodied conscious minds. I've read about and experienced things that I can't explain any other way.

And what is the explanation as to how the mind could exist without a body?

The sister watches it, as it apparently has a camp attraction to it. In particular, the scouser who "channels" - a large nugget of comedy gold by all accounts.

Derek Acorah. Is a twat on all counts.

And what is the explanation as to how the mind could exist without a body?

"The mind cannot exist without the body." The Matrix :D :p

And what is the explanation as to how the mind could exist without a body?

If the kind of electrical and computational activity that occurs in the brain can occur in other materials, it's entirely possible. We can do it on a limited scale with technology today, and there's no real reason why it couldn't happen in nature.

The Blue Brain project is doing this very thing, and interestingly enough there are electrical signals occurring in the simulation that are not controlled by the researchers and share similarity to electrical patterns seen during conscious thought. Another example, the entire principle behind mind transfer, which is entirely possible (although not at present...it requires some significant improvements in certain technologies) is recreating a person's brain in a computer using it to simulate the same kind of computational and electrical signals that the biological brain does.

i watch it occaisionally when my flatmate has it on. i've yet to be convinced that anything that has happened on it could not have been faked. there's still something in my brain that won't let me believe the whole concept is bullshit though so i remain open-minded.

Did anyone ever see Derren Brown's 'Seance'? That was good, and it blew the lid off the top a lot of the techniques used in these 'most haunted' shows. The show was apparently the second most complained about show ever on British television - loads of people refused to believe that he wasn't summoning the devil.

If the kind of electrical and computational activity that occurs in the brain can occur in other materials, it's entirely possible.

To copy. Not to transfer.

To copy. Not to transfer.

But if there is a complete continuity between the original and the copy, is there any real difference? If that copy has the same memories and personality as the original which no longer exists, isn't it the same person?

It would not be that much different than the body now; our synapses and cells renew themselves many times over our lives, but our experiences remain continuous even though the components supporting them have been replaced many times.

But if there is a complete continuity between the original and the copy, is there any real difference?

No. How do you achieve "complete continuity" with a ghost?

If that copy has the same memories and personality as the original which no longer exists, isn't it the same person?

No, it isn't. If it were, you could copy a thousand versions of yourself, and they'd all be "you" in the relevant sense.

If the kind of electrical and computational activity that occurs in the brain can occur in other materials, it's entirely possible. We can do it on a limited scale with technology today, and there's no real reason why it couldn't happen in nature.

The Blue Brain project is doing this very thing, and interestingly enough there are electrical signals occurring in the simulation that are not controlled by the researchers and share similarity to electrical patterns seen during conscious thought. Another example, the entire principle behind mind transfer, which is entirely possible (although not at present...it requires some significant improvements in certain technologies) is recreating a person's brain in a computer using it to simulate the same kind of computational and electrical signals that the biological brain does.

I know all of that, but I'm trying to grasp how a natural entity/phenomena could recreate the huge complexity of the human brain. Another point of contention is how the dying person's conscious could be transferred to this naturally occurring entity/phenomena (assuming it existed). I guess I can imagine some sort of electrical phenomena exhibiting sentience, or sentience-like tendencies, but how do you account for the ghosts who seem to be identical to people who were known to exist?

I went on an exorcism a couple of years ago, although I'm afraid the story is a bit uneventful. If you are hoping for blood or levitating furniture, please skip this post.

A friend/housemate of mine, who is a serious biological scientist but got involved with a lot of New Age stuff in the 80s, was asked to carry out an exorcism and took me with her. She told me that whatever happened, my job was to just be there and not get freaked out by it. Apparently having a non-freaking out person on the scene helps.

Anyway, this couple reckoned there was some kind of malign influence in their house. My friend went all through the house doing her hippy chanting thing and found nothing odd. While she was at it, I was in the living room with the couple. I began to get a funny feeling that there was something significant on the other side of the wall just level with where the bloke was sitting. I wondered if maybe the room was a bathroom and there was a medicine cabinet there, and a previous occupant of the house had taken an overdose. I asked them if it was okay to take a look around the house and they said yes, so I had a look. It was a study and, in the spot I'd been thinking of, nothing but a phone. Amused by my own over-active imagination, I went back to the living room.

After a few minutes more, our New Ager returned and told them she reckoned there was something wrong, but it was nothing to do with ghosts. She had a serious talk with them about what was happening in their lives. After a lot of questioning, it turned out the husband (a self-employed house restoration expert) was thinking of taking up a long-term contract working for someone who had a mansion that needed doing up. The wife absolutely hated this guy, loathed him in a deep-down, instinctive, 'keep him away from me' gut feeling kind of way, but had only dropped a couple of hints to the husband that she wasn't keen on the guy. He'd been phoning them up very frequently, trying to get a decision, and she'd been getting seriously wound up about it. As he didn't have the husband's mobile number, he'd been using the landline - the phone I'd felt drawn to.

The whole business was very odd, and I'm not sure what to make of it. Did I have a psychic/mind reading experience? I'm not sure. One point to consider - if my hippy friend was a fraud, she'd have just said: 'Yeah, ghost in the loft but I've got rid of it, cash please,' rather than giving them relationship counselling that they'd never even asked for.

Another thing this little story seems to suggest is that even people who are honestly convinced there is something supernatural going on may actually be externalising their own thoughts and issues.

I really hope someone, somewhere, finds this interesting or relevant...

If there ain't no ghosts - who's chasing PacMan?!?

If there ain't no ghosts - who's chasing PacMan?!?

Paedophiles.

I wouldn't say I'm a believer but I am scared of ghosts mostly because they can hump me

Also this thread needs ghost stories...

I'm not one to outright say there are no ghosts, nor am I one to immediately believe there are. I'm skeptical towards most accounts, especially on video or whatnot (why would a camera be able to record metaphysical echoes or whathaveyou? then again, it can record each and every flaw in my complexion with uncanny accuracy...) but at the same time part of me believes, or wants to believe, that yes there are unexplainable encounters with entities which may or may not be ghosts, souls, afterimages, other beings or whatever.

My only personal experience with this is my girlfriend once who said one of the rooms in her familys house ( a big, wealthy house ) was haunted; unexplained things happened there. Her mother also agreed with this. I knew that fear was a good excuse to cuddle up and so I would sometimes stealthily close the door if it was opened, stuff like that. It was fun.

I know all of that, but I'm trying to grasp how a natural entity/phenomena could recreate the huge complexity of the human brain. Another point of contention is how the dying person's conscious could be transferred to this naturally occurring entity/phenomena (assuming it existed). I guess I can imagine some sort of electrical phenomena exhibiting sentience, or sentience-like tendencies, but how do you account for the ghosts who seem to be identical to people who were known to exist?

Well, one problem is the fact that we don't know how exactly consciousness works; we do know that conscious will can affect physical phenomena, especially computational things like random number generators. It is likely that a person's consciousness may simply transfer itself to another object and function accordingly.

And those identical to people might simply be more capable of reconstructing their selves more completely than others due to strong will.

Well, one problem is the fact that we don't know how exactly consciousness works;
I though consciousness is the awareness of yourself as a physical being which interacts with your surrounding environment.
we do know that conscious will can affect physical phenomena, especially computational things like random number generators.
That's news to me.
It is likely that a person's consciousness may simply transfer itself to another object and function accordingly.
I still don't understand.

I'm open-minded about the subject, I think it is possible that a non-biological naturally occurring entity could have some sort of computational ability, perhaps even sentience.

Nonsensical rubbish for the feeble-minded.

I though consciousness is the awareness of yourself as a physical being which interacts with your surrounding environment.

That's part of it; the problem is, we don't know what causes it or where it comes from exactly. I mean, we are self-aware but we don't know what combination of things produces that sensation; it's more than the brain itself, so at the very least it's an emergent property.

That's news to me.

PEAR (Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research) at Princeton University did studies of this stuff for about 30 years and found a lot of strange properties that made a pretty convincing argument, supported by empirical evidence, that consciousness did affect the functioning of physical objects.

What to draw from that is still pretty controversial.

I still don't understand.

I'm open-minded about the subject, I think it is possible that a non-biological naturally occurring entity could have some sort of computational ability, perhaps even sentience.

I honestly don't know how to exactly explain it, since I don't have the kind of scientific background and we don't have the kind of knowledge yet to know how consciousness works to really explain this.

My idea is, at best, a hypothesis I've been thinking about.

I believe there are spirits.

You know, I just got done watching What Dreams May Come about 2 hours ago, and it talks about spirits and all that. Its a good movie..About 10 years old though.

According to my mom, when she was little she'd ask joke questions with her firends, sisters to the dead via wigi board. And she said they joked back. No need to do that now that instant messaging was invented. :D

No, ghosts are not real. There is always a logical explanation for the alleged phenomena in every single instance, up to and including personal hallucinations and the power of suggestion(that is, one person hallucinates or mistakes something for a ghost, tells others, and they start seeing it too.)

No, ghosts are not real. There is always a logical explanation for the alleged phenomena in every single instance

How can you say this without knowing every single instance?

And yes, there may well be validly logical reasons for the phenomena... but ghosts, while considered fanciful, are not inherently invalid in terms of logic.

How can you say this without knowing every single instance?

And yes, there may well be validly logical reasons for the phenomena... but ghosts, while considered fanciful, are not inherently invalid in terms of logic.

Because to me it just doesn't make any sense, that's all.

How can you say this without knowing every single instance?

And yes, there may well be validly logical reasons for the phenomena... but ghosts, while considered fanciful, are not inherently invalid in terms of logic.

seconded. I personally believe that somehow the patter of which certain neurons fire leave some sort of pattern behind once certain people die (this preserves the personality, soul and memories of the individual creating a ghost)

Because to me it just doesn't make any sense, that's all.

Well, okay. That's a fine reason not to believe in ghosts.

Personally I'm used to things not making sense (see: sex life), so I am more open to either alternative explanations (any of them really, including the ones you've stated) or just not having an explanation at all.

not sure that I can empirically prove anything, but when I first moved to AZ we lived in this apartment and I keep thinking I saw a guy walking down the hall, just back and forth, it scared the crap out of me, and since hubby was working 18 hour days I was home alone and pregnant so no eye witnesses, anyway, it wasn't 2 weeks later that I was in the hospital having my kid, and my in laws stayed at our house, now hubby knew what I had saw and didn't really tell anyone (since he thought I was crazy) but my father in law came to the hospital the next day and told me our apt. was haunted and that he had seen a guy walking up and down the hall :eek: it almost scared the baby right out of me. He and hubby swear that they had never discussed it before that point. A month or so after I got out of the hospital, I woke up with a man standing over my bed, I was so scared, I tried to move to check on the baby who was in the bassinet near the foot of the bed but I couldn't I rustled enough to wake up my husband and he said he saw someone run down the hall and disappear.

that, and I grew up in a "haunted" house where a bunch of weird stuff happened to everyone, and we all marked it down as coincidence and freaking out corporately until we pulled up the carpet in my room and found a huge blood spot under my bed, we knew the guy who lived there before had died, but we assumed he was sick, or in the hospital or something, we found out later (after we saw the blood) that he had in fact committed suicide in my room......which was about the point I decided to quit sleeping in my room (not that I ever got much sleep in that house anyway) I am really not sure how to explain any of it, but I don't really truly believe in ghosts because it doesn't match up with what I think theologically.......so for now, I guess a lot of things that are unexplained happen and I can't explain them. (or something)

Humans have brains, not souls or spirits. Anybody who believes in ghosts are delusional to the point of religion.

seconded. I personally believe that somehow the patter of which certain neurons fire leave some sort of pattern behind once certain people die (this preserves the personality, soul and memories of the individual creating a ghost)

And that is fairly similar to what I'm thinking about; a little different, but similar in its basic aspects.

Humans have brains, not souls or spirits. Anybody who believes in ghosts are delusional to the point of religion.

Yes, humans have brains, but the rest is not proven or, most likely, provable. Or disprovable really. Believing in such nonprovable things might be seen as religious-like, but certainly not delusional in any genuine sense of the word.

Yes, humans have brains, but the rest is not proven or, most likely, provable. Or disprovable really. Believing in such nonprovable things might be seen as religious-like, but certainly not delusional in any genuine sense of the word.

Let me ask you this, then: what is a soul?

Let me ask you this, then: what is a soul?


Our internal self...meaning our character,personality.

Our internal self...meaning our character,personality.

Our personality and character are dictated by our brain. That is why people's personalities can change due to brain injuries. That is why people with chemical imbalances can have illnesses like split-personality disorder. If the soul was eternal and non-physical then drugs or injury shouldn't alter it.

Let me ask you this, then: what is a soul?

the immaterial essence, animating principle, or actuating cause of an individual life. the spiritual principle embodied in human beings, all rational and spiritual beings, or the universe.

the immaterial essence, animating principle, or actuating cause of an individual life. the spiritual principle embodied in human beings, all rational and spiritual beings, or the universe.

That sounds to me like a lot of bull, since I don't see how you can draw a line in the sand of evolution where one animal has a soul but its son or daughter does not. Also, there is no evidence for any of what you just said.

That sounds to me like a lot of bull

...take it up with Merriam-Webster

, since I don't see how you can draw a line in the sand of evolution where one animal has a soul but its son or daughter does not. Also, there is no evidence for any of what you just said.

Uh, yeah. The concepts of a soul, or ghosts, or God, or Goodness, or Evil, or Virtue, Sin are not biological science. Hello. Did you honestly just never hear about these things before now or what?

...take it up with Merriam-Webster

Uh, yeah. The concepts of a soul, or ghosts, or God, or Goodness, or Evil, or Virtue, Sin are not biological science. Hello. Did you honestly just never hear about these things before now or what?

No, but if you point out basic problems with the concept of a soul, then the entire idea crumbles. Since the soul is supposed to exist as part of the our species make-up and not exist in "stupid" animals, then it is only reasonable to point out how ambiguous the soul and its properties are.

I had an experience...might be a ghost, it freaked me and the others out TOTALLY...

If you want me to post it, I shall.....

I've never seen any ghosts, but I don't see why they couldn't exist.

when you sleep, deep sleep that is, your brain is at its lowest state of activity. Are you aware when in this state? no. So it stands to reason that when the brain emits no activity at all, the person no longer exists. Therefore its very likely that there are no ghosts nor an afterlife. The evidence definately is indicative of this.

when you sleep, deep sleep that is, your brain is at its lowest state of activity. Are you aware when in this state? no. So it stands to reason that when the brain emits no activity at all, the person no longer exists. Therefore its very likely that there are no ghosts nor an afterlife. The evidence definately is indicative of this.

Just because ghosts aren't the "spirits" of dead people or something doens't mean they don't exist.

No, but if you point out basic problems with the concept of a soul, then the entire idea crumbles.

Not really.

By all means, point out the basic problems, and find someone who believes in the soul and get their belief in the idea to "crumble." It won't work. You can't disprove a metaphyiscal concept, especially if your idea of proof or disproof is looking at things with a purely scientific viewpoint.

Since the soul is supposed to exist as part of the our species make-up and not exist in "stupid" animals, then it is only reasonable to point out how ambiguous the soul and its properties are.

OK, it's ambiguous...

Not really.

By all means, point out the basic problems, and find someone who believes in the soul and get their belief in the idea to "crumble." It won't work. You can't disprove a metaphyiscal concept, especially if your idea of proof or disproof is looking at things with a purely scientific viewpoint.

OK, it's ambiguous...

Unless you're Derek the Medium, and you're in it for the money.

IMHO: Ghosts do not exist and these shows are a load of drek. I've seen a few and nothing on them can convince me that any of it isn't faked for "exciting" tv fare.
The best of the shows I've seen so far is on Sci Fi channel. I believe its called Ghosthunters. T.A.P.S. is the organization. The majority of the time they debunk most hauntings with logical explanations.

I've lived in a lot of houses where death occurred both violent and non and have yet to see the remotest possibility of a haunting.

IMHO: Ghosts do not exist and these shows are a load of drek. I've seen a few and nothing on them can convince me that any of it isn't faked for "exciting" tv fare.
The best of the shows I've seen so far is on Sci Fi channel. I believe its called Ghosthunters. T.A.P.S. is the organization. The majority of the time they debunk most hauntings with logical explanations.

I've lived in a lot of houses where death occurred both violent and non and have yet to see the remotest possibility of a haunting.


I worked in a pub that was filmed for Most Haunting (before I worked there) and occasionally there would be lots of events close together and then nothing. During on of these spells of action someone got helped put their coat on when they were trying to get an arm in the sleve. They turned round to thank the person but no-one was there - the landlady saw the coat move and it was the first thing she had seen happen in the pub in 13years. Next the drip trays started to get moved from the end of the bar after they had been cleaned and all the bar staff were on a fag break at the other end of the pub. Then I was in the cellar all alone getting some Newcastle browns for the fridge and someone was whistleing in the other room. Finnaly a barmaid was putting some glasses away at the end of the night and TWO cigar tins jumped out of their moulded plastic stand and smashed the glasses whilst she was holding them.

That said - 'Most Haunted' is a bunch of crap - you can't put these shows as evidence for the lack of existence of ghosts.