NationStates Jolt Archive

It seems to be popular belief that the phrase "anti-Semitic" is equivalent to "anti-Jew". This usage is slightly misleading but tolerable, as this is what the phrase has come to mean in modern day culture. However, I am increasingly annoyed by the fact that the public is being misled into thinking that the term "Semitic" equates to "Jewish".

The term "Semitic" refers to a family of Middle Eastern languages. This family includes Hebrew, Aramaic, Amharic, and--the real kicker--Arabic. In fact almost every Middle Eastern language except Iranian is Semetic. Which would make most of the Muslim world...Semitic.

...

As a result I am increasingly annoyed by journalists who use the phrase "anti-Semitic" to describe anti-Jew sentiment in the Muslim world and anti-Israel sentiment in the European world (the latter usage is probably less common in European media, however here where I live it is frighteningly common). Not only is the latter usage inaccurate, but both usages help people forget that the language of Islam is directly related to the language of Judaism.

EDIT: I changed the last sentence for clarity.

Well, languages change over time. English was pretty messed up as it is, thanks to vocabulary from Old English, French, Latin and more, all mashed together.

As a result I am increasingly annoyed by journalists who use the phrase "anti-Semitic" to describe anti-Jew sentiment in the Muslim world and anti-Israel sentiment in the European world. Not only is it inaccurate, it helps people forget that the language of Islam is directly related to the language of Judaism.

The journalists would still be correct in labeling Anti-Jewish people as Anti-Semites, as Jews are indeed Semites.

It seems to be popular belief that the phrase "anti-Semitic" is equivalent to "anti-Jew". This usage is slightly misleading but tolerable, as this is what the phrase has come to mean in modern day culture.

It's what the phrase was coined to mean in the first place.

Not only is it inaccurate

It's not.

Anti-semitism is the correct word to use because it was a word that was created to describe anti-Jewish actions and beliefs.

This argument is most often used by people who hate jews, but don't like being called on it.

Anti-Semite has a popular usage, that while possibly not wholly accurate, does convey an understood meaning.

Even if the term may not be precise, it still has its meaning as "anti-Jew" to people. Just the way it is, misnomer or no.

Another conflict between logic and reason. 'Anti-semitism' as a term is not logical in it's usage, but it is reasonable. The english language has many words like this.

Another conflict between logic and reason. 'Anti-semitism' as a term is not logical in it's usage, but it is reasonable. The english language has many words like this.

The journalists would still be correct in labeling Anti-Jewish people as Anti-Semites, as Jews are indeed Semites.

I was thinking that to be "anti-Semitic" would imply that you are against Semitism. Not a subset of Semitism, the whole concept of Semitism.

It's what the phrase was coined to mean in the first place.

It was coined to describe 19th century European sentiments that asserted the superiority of Aryan races over Semitic races. There is litle evidence (that I know of) that those who were using it at the time were specifically talking about hatred for jews. But it context it seemed that "anti-Semitism" partly mean being against the idea that Arab culture shared a common heritage with Jewish culture. Comte de Gobineau, who did not hate Jewish or Arab people per se, wrote that to think in terms of "Semitic culture" was to prompt the "blurring of distinctions between previously separate races". Thus we have anti-Semitism in its most literal form, being agains the very concept of "Semitism" as a way to describe cultures.

It's not.

It isn't when referring to anti-Judaism. But what I was referring to as "innaccurate" was European anti-Zionism. Anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism are very different things, which many people these days are not acknowledging. People are referring to critics of Israel as anti-Semitic or anti-Jew. And while there are definitely those out there who have prejudices against Israel that are unjustified, and there are definitely those out there with prejudices against Jews (even in supposedly civilized countries, see the burning of Jewish schools in Paris), but a distinction is not being made.

This argument is most often used by people who hate jews, but don't like being called on it.


This is the whole conception I'm trying to fight against. I hate neither Jews nor the concept of Judaism. The two things I do hate: the antagonizing of those opposed to Israeli policy, and the idea that the antagonization between Judaism and Islam is something that is culturally inherent. It's not, but this generation is being taught to think that there is.

Even if the term may not be precise, it still has its meaning as "anti-Jew" to people. Just the way it is, misnomer or no.

I don't deny this. I just don't like it...I mean that I don't like that people forget that there was ever such a thing as "Semitism" outside of Judaism. People don't realize how many cultural connections, not only linguistic but philosophical as well, that there are between Judaism and Arabic beyond Moses and whatnot.

There is litle evidence (that I know of) that those who were using it at the time were specifically talking about hatred for jews.

German political agitator Wilhelm Marr coined the related German word Antisemitismus in his book "The Way to Victory of Germanicism over Judaism" in 1879. Marr used the phrase to mean hatred of Jews or Judenhass, and he used the new word antisemitism to make hatred of the Jews seem rational and sanctioned by scientific knowledge. Marr's book became very popular, and in the same year he founded the "League of Antisemites" ("Antisemiten-Liga"), the first German organization committed specifically to combatting the alleged threat to Germany posed by the Jews, and advocating their forced removal from the country.

So far as can be ascertained, the word was first widely printed in 1881, when Marr published "Zwanglose Antisemitische Hefte," and Wilhelm Scherer used the term "Antisemiten" in the January issue of "Neue Freie Presse".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Semitism#Etymology_and_usage

Anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism are very different things

Agreed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Semitism#Etymology_and_usage

The word anti-Semitic was first used in 1860 by the Austrian Jewish scholar Moritz Steinschneider in the phrase "anti-Semitic prejudices". Steinschneider used this phrase to characterize Ernest Renan's ideas about how "Semitic races" were inferior to "Aryan races".

Wikipedia has drastic inconcistency.

Wikipedia has drastic inconcistency.

No, it doesn't. The two statements don't contradict each other.

This argument is most often used by people who hate jews, but don't like being called on it.

Anti-Semite has a popular usage, that while possibly not wholly accurate, does convey an understood meaning.

For the win.

No, it doesn't. The two statements don't contradict each other.

I do see upon more carefullly reading your quote that you are right about the lack of contradiction. But this is also from the Wiki article

In
Treitschke's writings Semitic was practically synonymous with Jewish,
in contrast to its usage by Renan and others.

The phrase was coined in 1860 to describe Renan's ideas. According to the last quote Renan was not talking specifically about Jews. Therefore the term was not initially coined to mean anti-Jew.

Actually the Wiki articles on the subject are quite insightful as to the meaning of the phrase. I'm not trying to deny the meaning of the word "anti-Semitism", I'm trying to suggest that the way it is used is not useful to society.

Several people have suggested to be anti Jewish by definition makes you anti-semetic (as Judaism is a Semitic culture). This logic must apply to any Semetic grouping therefore arabs including Palestininians. Thus to demonstrate discrimination against such groups would also be anti semitic. This does not create a helfpful or creative structure.

Prejudice against people is wrong but call it accurately then you can deal with the real problem.
Discrimination against Jewish people is anti Jewish:
Discrimination against Muslims is anti-muslim
Discrimnation against Arabs is anti-arab
Discrimination against Semitic groups as a whole is anti-semitic

The high-jacking of the term to just be applied to Jewish people denies other groups their right to be considered Semetic.

I thought Semite was a term that came from the Bible, Shem being the father of the Jews? Wouldn't this make it just mean Jews?

The journalists would still be correct in labeling Anti-Jewish people as Anti-Semites, as Jews are indeed Semites.

When labeling Europeans as anti-semetic, you have a point. When labeling other Semitic peoples as anti-semetic, it's a bit silly.

So a hateful Palestinian who hates jews would be a semitic anti-semite? Wow really seeing the logic there, he hates himself, but then again not according to the english language,....

Anti-semitism is the correct word to use because it was a word that was created to describe anti-Jewish actions and beliefs.

It's used too often to label those with valid criticisms of Israeli policy to have much worth as an "anti-jew" belief anymore.

"Doesn't agree with Israel" is the more common application now.

So a hateful Palestinian who hates jews would be a semitic anti-semite? Wow really seeing the logic there, he hates himself, but then again not according to the english language,.... I suppose it would be like calling an American who doesn't like Panamans "anti-American". It's technically true but the English language is not built for those kinds of technicalities.

It isn't built at all so much as it is nailed together.

"Jew" is a word some people dont touch with a 10 feet pole.

Gets you too many problems.

"Jew" is a word some people dont touch with a 10 feet pole.

Gets you too many problems.

This whole thread contradicts you.

As a result I am increasingly annoyed by journalists who use the phrase "anti-Semitic" to describe anti-Jew sentiment in the Muslim world and anti-Israel sentiment in the European world (the latter usage is probably less common in European media, however here where I live it is frighteningly common). Not only is the latter usage inaccurate, but both usages help people forget that the language of Islam is directly related to the language of Judaism.

You can't blame the journalists for this. Despite its origins, the phrase now connotates anti-Jewish settlement and is thus the most appropriate term to describe whatever it is the journo is writing about.

This whole thread contradicts you.

I said some, not all.

Which means the media doesnt use it because some people are unconfortable with it.

It seems to be popular belief that the phrase "anti-Semitic" is equivalent to "anti-Jew". This usage is slightly misleading but tolerable, as this is what the phrase has come to mean in modern day culture. However, I am increasingly annoyed by the fact that the public is being misled into thinking that the term "Semitic" equates to "Jewish".

The term "Semitic" refers to a family of Middle Eastern languages. This family includes Hebrew, Aramaic, Amharic, and--the real kicker--Arabic. In fact almost every Middle Eastern language except Iranian is Semetic. Which would make most of the Muslim world...Semitic.

...

As a result I am increasingly annoyed by journalists who use the phrase "anti-Semitic" to describe anti-Jew sentiment in the Muslim world and anti-Israel sentiment in the European world (the latter usage is probably less common in European media, however here where I live it is frighteningly common). Not only is the latter usage inaccurate, but both usages help people forget that the language of Islam is directly related to the language of Judaism.

EDIT: I changed the last sentence for clarity.

Your point being?

I thought Semite was a term that came from the Bible, Shem being the father of the Jews? Wouldn't this make it just mean Jews?Shem is not the father of the Jews, he is seen as their ancestor (via Hebrews and Israelites). However, Shem is also the assumed ancestor of what are Arabs today (via Hebrews and Ishmaelites).

Abraham -> Ishmael - - -> Arabs
Abraham -> Isaac -> Jacob (="Israel") - - -> Israelites

When labeling Europeans as anti-semetic, you have a point. When labeling other Semitic peoples as anti-semetic, it's a bit silly.Oh, I remember how some Americans called Europeans that didn't want to follow the American invasion of Iraq "unpatriotic" .

The journalists would still be correct in labeling Anti-Jewish people as Anti-Semites, as Jews are indeed Semites.

Really? So if I marry a Jew and convert to Judaism, I become a Semite?

WRONG.

There is no such thing as words having technical meanings somehow independent of their common usage.

Every time the word 'anti-semitic' is uttered, it refers to a prejudice against Jewish people, therefore, that is what it means.

There is no such thing as words having technical meanings somehow independent of their common usage.

Set (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set). Period (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periodic_table_period). Complex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_number).

WRONG.

There is no such thing as words having technical meanings somehow independent of their common usage.

Every time the word 'anti-semitic' is uttered, it refers to a prejudice against Jewish people, therefore, that is what it means.
However, normally a compound word means what the combination of its compounds means.

Set (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set)

shit, that one has two wildly different definitions in the context of music alone

You can't blame the journalists for this. Despite its origins, the phrase now connotates anti-Jewish settlement and is thus the most appropriate term to describe whatever it is the journo is writing about.

Normally I will leave minor spelling errors or attention deficit alone
but being anti-jewish settlements is the UN position as they are unlawful.
So you might want to correct it, when presumably you meant sentiment.

WRONG.

There is no such thing as words having technical meanings somehow independent of their common usage.

Every time the word 'anti-semitic' is uttered, it refers to a prejudice against Jewish people, therefore, that is what it means.

Margaret Thatcher all over again.
The response is NO, words do not just mean what you want them to mean,
anti-semitism was coined by and used by what we would all be happy to call
Nazi's. It was used because the Jews are a semitic race, they are not the only semitic race and while we all in Europe can understand that people
may mean anti Jewishness to be understand I would hope we are all sufficiently aware of words and their meaning
to also understand the irony of claiming one semitic race to be anti-semitic against another semitic race.

In Europe people from the United States are often referred to as Yanks
we all know what we mean and mostly we all know why it is also something
that you might not want to call someone from southern states, because
while we all know what we mean, we also have some understanding of real meaning and history.

Set (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set). Period (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periodic_table_period). Complex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_number).

Care to expand?

However, normally a compound word means what the combination of its compounds means.

Normally, yes. But to attempt to standardise that as a definite rule is futile.

Margaret Thatcher all over again.
The response is NO, words do not just mean what you want them to mean,
anti-semitism was coined by and used by what we would all be happy to call
Nazi's. It was used because the Jews are a semitic race, they are not the only semitic race and while we all in Europe can understand that people
may mean anti Jewishness to be understand I would hope we are all sufficiently aware of words and their meaning
to also understand the irony of claiming one semitic race to be anti-semitic against another semitic race.

In Europe people from the United States are often referred to as Yanks
we all know what we mean and mostly we all know why it is also something
that you might not want to call someone from southern states, because
while we all know what we mean, we also have some understanding of real meaning and history.

I am fully aware of the history of the term. However, in addition I am aware of the linguistic theory of words, what they are, what they are not, etc.

There is no magic dictionary that will give a universally accepted definition to a term, (academic terms are no exception, academic circles may attempt to standardise word meaning within their own circles, but that still only constitutes a tiny fraction of the potential speakers of such a word).

The only meaningful way to define a word is to examine how it is commonly used. This method is, also, riddled with problems, but practicality demands that words must have definitions. In the minds of almost every English speaker 'semitic' refers to Jews, intimate circles of 19th Century anthropologists can say whatever they want, but the fact remains that 'semitic' already has a near-universally accepted definition.

Besides, I am suspicious of any party that may seek to change the phrasing of 'anti-semitic', but does not also seek to change the phrasing of 'because', 'cockeyed' or 'review', as it appears that their issue is a political one rather than a linguistic one...

PS. Thatcher??

yeh, it's inaccurate, but it sounds more intelligent to call someone anti-semitic than to call them a j00 haterz or to godwin them. it's usually used fallaciously on this forum in another way: to try and drown out the arguments of anti-zionists, cuz if you can accuse someone of bigotry and make it stick you can negate all reasoned argument they may put forth. basically it's stupid and uninformed but it's really not worth questioning it now, and especially not here, because it's common usage is so well established. it's just a shame that it is used as a shield and whip by many israel apologists, but then that whole argument is so racked with strawmen and non-sequiturs and blind accusations on both sides that it is barely worth pursuing anymore.

besides, most people who actually hate jews probably also hate a-rabs so it really doesn't matter. when it does sound stupid is in the whole israel/palestine debate.

Care to expand?

All of those words have technical meanings independent of their common usage.

In Europe people from the United States are often referred to as Yanks
we all know what we mean and mostly we all know why it is also something
that you might not want to call someone from southern states, because
while we all know what we mean, we also have some understanding of real meaning and history.

British English and American English are different. The word 'Yank' has a different meaning in each language, as do the words 'pants', 'football' and 'biscuit'. It is simply wrong to say that one language or the other embodies 'real meaning'.

British English and American English are different. The word 'Yank' has a different meaning in each language, as do the words 'pants', 'football' and 'biscuit'. It is simply wrong to say that one language or the other embodies 'real meaning'.But then, who cares for the finer details of English? The term "anti-Semitic" was neither coined in English first, nor are its compounds originally English.

But then, who cares for the finer details of English? The term "anti-Semitic" was neither coined in English first, nor are its compounds originally English.

Err.... what? Most words in most modern languages have their origins in older languages. Perhaps the Greeks should turn up and start lecturing us on how our word 'television' doesn't mean what we think it does.

WRONG.

There is no such thing as words having technical meanings somehow independent of their common usage.
You are wrong.

"Theory" in scientific vs common usage is a very good example of a word that totally changes it's meaning. This does not mean that 'theory' is misused in the common usage - just that the meaning of it in common usage cannot be transferred to scientific usage.


Every time the word 'anti-semitic' is uttered, it refers to a prejudice against Jewish people, therefore, that is what it means.

However I partialy agree with this. When people use 'Anti-Semitism' to describe prejudice against Jewish people in common usage it is Anti-Semitism, and is correct for the context it is used in, although it may not be technically correct. However where I disagree with your statement is that very often 'anti-semite' is used to refer to people who are either anti-zionist or are opposed to Israels foreign and domestic policy - and in that context it is used very wrongly.

It seems to be popular belief that the phrase "anti-Semitic" is equivalent to "anti-Jew". This usage is slightly misleading but tolerable, as this is what the phrase has come to mean in modern day culture. However, I am increasingly annoyed by the fact that the public is being misled into thinking that the term "Semitic" equates to "Jewish".

The term "Semitic" refers to a family of Middle Eastern languages. This family includes Hebrew, Aramaic, Amharic, and--the real kicker--Arabic. In fact almost every Middle Eastern language except Iranian is Semetic. Which would make most of the Muslim world...Semitic.

...

As a result I am increasingly annoyed by journalists who use the phrase "anti-Semitic" to describe anti-Jew sentiment in the Muslim world and anti-Israel sentiment in the European world (the latter usage is probably less common in European media, however here where I live it is frighteningly common). Not only is the latter usage inaccurate, but both usages help people forget that the language of Islam is directly related to the language of Judaism.

EDIT: I changed the last sentence for clarity.

i'm inclined to aggree with your propisition. all this anti-middleastern drum beating to promote and support gratuitous mass murder and destruction of middle eastern nation's infrastructure is just as much also anti-semitism, by it's rational root definician, as anti-israeli sentiment.

it certainly would throw a different light on a lot of things if more people could and did understand that.

=^^=
.../\...

i would also like to add that i am neither anti-arab nor anti-israeli, but rather, if anti anything, anti corporatocracy's lets make arabs and israelis fight each other so we can screw both of them.

=^^=
.../\...