NationStates Jolt Archive

A response I made in Neesika's 'white angst' thread dredged up some old thoughts, and I'd like to rehash them here.

In the past, I've had immigrant friends and relations inform me that 'Canada has no culture'. While I felt affronted by the suggestion, it left me to ponder exactly what culture is in the first place.

From what I gathered from them, culture is tradition and ceremony that has roots in the history of a particular people; primarily consisting of traditional dress, food, dances, etc. By this defenition, they claimed that Canada didn't have a culture, because it was entirely too new. All of our 'dress, food, dances, etc.' are a product of modern times, and therefore not 'cultural'. (Note that they were making a distinction between french-speaking Canadians and the rest of Canada; the 'no-culture' tag was only applied to anglophones.)

I'd argue that it isn't so much that there is no Canadian culture, rather that English-Speaking Canada is part of a global Anglo-culture that more or less is dominating the globe. Other cultures are therefore compared to this so-called 'lack of culture'.

Is it that we don't have people doing funny traditional dances? We have those people too; we call them hicks. Is it because we are largely becoming secular, whilst many immigrant communities hold on to traditional religious beliefs? Well, there's plenty of religious Canadians out here too.

So, what the heck is Culture anyway? And what's the big deal? While I'm speaking from a Canadian standpoint, I'm sure english-speaking people everywhere might have an idea where I'm coming from.

What's the difference between Australia and a yogurt?

A yogurt can develop a culture.

Sorry.

In Soviet Russia, culture asks "What is you?"!

In the past, I've had immigrant friends and relations inform me that 'Canada has no culture'. While I felt affronted by the suggestion, it left me to ponder exactly what culture is in the first place.

From what I gathered from them, culture is tradition and ceremony that has roots in the history of a particular people; primarily consisting of traditional dress, food, dances, etc. By this defenition, they claimed that Canada didn't have a culture, because it was entirely too new. All of our 'dress, food, dances, etc.' are a product of modern times, and therefore not 'cultural'. (Note that they were making a distinction between french-speaking Canadians and the rest of Canada; the 'no-culture' tag was only applied to anglophones.)

Canada has a culture:
http://www.zompist.com/canada.html

On the second thought: Culture is a fig leaf for any sort of intention without an inherent meaning.

British culture is notable for its lack thereof, I know that much.

British culture is notable for its lack thereof, I know that much.

This is what I'm talking about. Why do we think that way? Is it because other cultures are 'flashier'?

This is what I'm talking about. Why do we think that way? Is it because other cultures are 'flashier'? It might be because we've been drunken louts for half of our time since the 17th century. It's also probably because British people are probably more mongrelised - culturally if not genetically - than other European peoples, and so don't feel the need to preserve a singular cultural ideal the same way the frogs do.

I mean if you think about it German culture consists of stereotypes, sausage and beer, but part of our culture is moaning about our own country so we moan about our perceived lack of culture.

I can attest that French-Canadian culture is no more positive than Canadian culture. Both developed negatively (not meant pejoratively: it's true) - Canadians affirmed their identity in response to American cultural industries, French Canadians (especially Québécois) grounded their culture against the perceived loss of their language in the great sea of North American English. Both culture work on the premise of outside vectors threatening its integrity.

I, for one, appreciate the laxity in Canadian culture. I cannot tell you how many people (new arrivants) I've spoken to who actually feel a lot more at ease here than in other countries with more stringent cultural expectations. People not only from the East but from south of the border too...
(negative culture kicking in :) )

of course canada has a culture. it has many cultures all slightly different and perhaps in a bit more flux than other countries are willing to admit to.

it only seems like canada doesnt have a culture if you are living in canada. same as thinking that canadians dont have an accent--you dont hear it if you are surrounded by it.

its not necessary to have a national HAT in order to have your own culture.

its not necessary to have a national HAT in order to have your own culture.

though it helps

http://www.cita.utoronto.ca/webpages/mckenzie/pics/bob_and_doug.jpg

This is what I'm talking about. Why do we think that way? Is it because other cultures are 'flashier'?

Definitely. At least, that's my opinion. Seeing as most of our (western) culture has become products to be paid for, we don't consider it on the same level of authenticity as rural/indigenous/exotic/traditional/etc. cultures.

To Soluis: I would argue that British musical innovation is as alive and vibrant as ever. Warp records (and others, admittedly) almost single-handedly carried electronic music throughout the nineties. And personally I hail Monty Python as the highest sublimate of cinematic humour of the twentieth century.

Culture is group identity on shared beliefs of abusing children.

though it helps

http://www.cita.utoronto.ca/webpages/mckenzie/pics/bob_and_doug.jpg

lol

or not.

To Soluis: I would argue that British musical innovation is as alive and vibrant as ever. Warp records (and others, admittedly) almost single-handedly carried electronic music throughout the nineties. And personally I hail Monty Python as the highest sublimate of cinematic humour of the twentieth century. I never said anything about music. I might just put Dragonforce on in a few minutes, though… followed by the Vaughan Williams I just got.

Monty Python are mostly dead… :(

lol

or not.

I laughed. I suppose the toque is our cultural hat. That or the mountie thing.

I'd argue that it isn't so much that there is no Canadian culture, rather that English-Speaking Canada is part of a global Anglo-culture that more or less is dominating the globe.

There's that, yes. Your culture always appears to you more clearly when you're a minority - and you therefore have something to define it against. Culture is very much seeing what makes you different from outsiders... especially powerful and influential outsiders.

It might be because we've been drunken louts for half of our time since the 17th century. It's also probably because British people are probably more mongrelised - culturally if not genetically - than other European peoples, and so don't feel the need to preserve a singular cultural ideal the same way the frogs do.


You've contradicted yourself their drunken youtishness is a part of our culture thats been almost always been populor for 400 years!

Edit: But seriously what about football? Not the big overpriced FIFA bollocks but kids playing in the streets? Or better yet mob football! I went and played that in a near by town the numbers were incredible and it was fantastic. Folk music is still going strong and kids are making their own version of it in their bedrooms and sharing it with the world like Al Baker or Russ Substance. Moris dancing is still around but thats always been looked down. People have been fighting to preserve their traditon of hunting very fiercly and very obvious loophole has been left in the law to let them do it. So what are these cultural ideals that we don't hold on to like the French?

Where there is life (ie, more than a few individuals), there is culture. People who say "X has no culture" are suffering from a limitation of perception at best, or at worst, are bigots.

Culture is any practice which is so unpopular, unmarketable and impractical that no one would perform it unless they felt the need to because of habit or ceremonial obligation.

Culture is any practice which is so unpopular, unmarketable and impractical that no one would perform it unless they felt the need to because of habit or ceremonial obligation. Marriage is indeed an integral part of many cultures.

I can attest that French-Canadian culture is no more positive than Canadian culture. Both developed negatively (not meant pejoratively: it's true) - Canadians affirmed their identity in response to American cultural industries, French Canadians (especially Québécois) grounded their culture against the perceived loss of their language in the great sea of North American English. Both culture work on the premise of outside vectors threatening its integrity.

I've always found it slightly ironic that Canada makes large pains to protect our culture, yet can't define what it is. A lot of the time, our cultural protection attempts seem to be more about protecting particular Canadian businesses, such as Rogers.

I, for one, appreciate the laxity in Canadian culture. I cannot tell you how many people (new arrivants) I've spoken to who actually feel a lot more at ease here than in other countries with more stringent cultural expectations. People not only from the East but from south of the border too... (negative culture kicking in :) )

The impression I was always given, was that it was easy for Canada to embrace multiculturalism because their was no Canadian culture to preserve or protect in the first place. I would argue that our culture lies primarily in our institutions, and other than a token nod to Queen Elizabeth II, the whole system is rather culture-neutral. Our culture is definitely there; immigrants are actively participating in it.

my recommendation - tell culture-denier to wear a penis gourd to work or school, and report back on how well that works out for them

anyone that suggests any country has a homogenous and universally recognised culture is talking crap. there are traditions, certainly, for example in britain there is wassailing and may day and other things besides. but these are generally minority pursuits (the minority usually being bearded middle-aged men and women in smocks). aside from these ancient traditions, which are only really of value as curiosities, any concept of a national culture is nebulous and often entirely fictional. of course there are traditions that have a high profile nationally and internationally, such as that bull-run they do in spain or the big tomato fight, but these are merely popular traditions and in no way constitute culture in themselves. the idea of an over-arching national culture is an invention of nationalism designed to facilitate the opposition and polarity in people's minds between themselves and the population of other countries so that they may place a misguided loyalty to their state as it acts in its own interest in opposition to other states.

sorry that was a bit rambling, i'm not really paying attention.

anyone that suggests any country has a homogenous and universally recognised culture is talking crap. there are traditions, certainly, for example in britain there is wassailing and may day and other things besides. but these are generally minority pursuits (the minority usually being bearded middle-aged men and women in smocks). aside from these ancient traditions, which are only really of value as curiosities, any concept of a national culture is nebulous and often entirely fictional. of course there are traditions that have a high profile nationally and internationally, such as that bull-run they do in spain or the big tomato fight, but these are merely popular traditions and in no way constitute culture in themselves. the idea of an over-arching national culture is an invention of nationalism designed to facilitate the opposition and polarity in people's minds between themselves and the population of other countries so that they may place a misguided loyalty to their state as it acts in its own interest in opposition to other states.

sorry that was a bit rambling, i'm not really paying attention.

No, I know exactly what you're saying. But try saying that to someone from the Balkans, where culture and bloodline mean everything.

Well of course we don't have a unified culture. We've been "multicultural" for thousands of years - Welsh, Irish, Scots and the English. And that's before you get into regional subcultures, which you get in every nation.

I doesn't matter what I say; some ass is going to disagree and start flaming me. Why have I become such a flame-target as of late? I can't talk about anything from prom to the cultural background of my best friend without some moron attacking me.

Some days I wonder why I don't just commit suicide-by-mod, or something, and never come back.

I doesn't matter what I say; some ass is going to disagree and start flaming me.

that's just an important cultural tradition here on nsg

that's just an important cultural tradition here on nsg

Why didn't I notice it before?

Why didn't I notice it before?

I don't know, it's quite hard to miss.

No, I know exactly what you're saying. But try saying that to someone from the Balkans, where culture and bloodline mean everything.

i'd still argue with them. it needn't be necessary.

I doesn't matter what I say; some ass is going to disagree and start flaming me. Why have I become such a flame-target as of late? I can't talk about anything from prom to the cultural background of my best friend without some moron attacking me.

Some days I wonder why I don't just commit suicide-by-mod, or something, and never come back.

Of course it matters what you say. If you gather negative comments towards your opinion, then oh well. The point is your ability to say what you want. If you really want to debate with those people, then dig a little deeper and arm yourself with more knowledge. Or just ignore them.

Culture is a bunch of largely useless baggage (silliness, gathered stupidity, patterns of behavior, preferences and way of living. though a few nice things often accompany the rest) carried by people, developed by societies, and crammed down the throats of their people, most significantly at a young age.

Of course it matters what you say. If you gather negative comments towards your opinion, then oh well. The point is your ability to say what you want. If you really want to debate with those people, then dig a little deeper and arm yourself with more knowledge. Or just ignore them.

I know, that's the sensible thing. But somedays I just want to scream "F.ck You, World!" because I can't escape ridicule for my beliefs, no matter where I go. I get it online, I get it in my academic classes, I even get it in the drama room, the world's one safe place.

What is Canadian culture? It's spitting on people you don't understand. Who really cares if I think we should have sympathy for Grendel, or if I think the common conception of good is bullcrap, or if I want to use a fricking colloquialism while I type. When a stupid in-class question about laws you would pass as a leader turns into an excuse to mock me, that's when you know your country is sh.t. That's when you know culture is just another excuse for people to decide they're better than their neighbours. That's when you suddenly understand how perogis and bongo drums become world wars.

I know, that's the sensible thing. But somedays I just want to scream "F.ck You, World!" because I can't escape ridicule for my beliefs, no matter where I go. I get it online, I get it in my academic classes, I even get it in the drama room, the world's one safe place.

What is Canadian culture? It's spitting on people you don't understand. Who really cares if I think we should have sympathy for Grendel, or if I think the common conception of good is bullcrap, or if I want to use a fricking colloquialism while I type. When a stupid in-class question about laws you would pass as a leader turns into an excuse to mock me, that's when you know your country is sh.t. That's when you know culture is just another excuse for people to decide they're better than their neighbours. That's when you suddenly understand how perogis and bongo drums become world wars.

Well I'd fight for perogis. At least its something tangible worth fighting for. And tasty to boot.

I think your take on Canadian culture might be a bit reactionary to some people criticising you lately. Don't take it too hard. Believe what you believe and be prepared to back it up if necessary. Open debate, and all the negative stuff that goes with it, is a part of our culture too.

What is Culture? A series of novels by a writer named Ian M. Banks. Depending on your POV, it is either a technophilic wankfest or a description of Earthly paradise. If you mean culture in a general sense, I really don't know, despite all my attempts to play Beethoven.

Culture is a bunch of largely useless baggage (silliness, gathered stupidity, patterns of behavior, preferences and way of living. though a few nice things often accompany the rest) carried by people, developed by societies, and crammed down the throats of their people, most significantly at a young age.

Well, I both agree and disagree. I consider culture as the unconscious knowledge taught and learned inside a society.

That means everything, not just the bad parts. It means how you shake hands, how you deal with people, how you clean your butt, how you prepare your food. Every culture aspect had or has a reason, even if you dont notice it. The problem is that sometimes this reason has been lost or doesnt have a function anymore, and people repeat it just because they have learned at a very young age.

Culture is an extremely important asset. It only grows over hundreds of years, and culture is basicaly what separates one country from another.

I will say again, culture is an EXTREMELY important asset to any society, and it should do anything to protect it.

A response I made in Neesika's 'white angst' thread dredged up some old thoughts, and I'd like to rehash them here.

In the past, I've had immigrant friends and relations inform me that 'Canada has no culture'. While I felt affronted by the suggestion, it left me to ponder exactly what culture is in the first place.

From what I gathered from them, culture is tradition and ceremony that has roots in the history of a particular people; primarily consisting of traditional dress, food, dances, etc. By this defenition, they claimed that Canada didn't have a culture, because it was entirely too new. All of our 'dress, food, dances, etc.' are a product of modern times, and therefore not 'cultural'. (Note that they were making a distinction between french-speaking Canadians and the rest of Canada; the 'no-culture' tag was only applied to anglophones.)

I'd argue that it isn't so much that there is no Canadian culture, rather that English-Speaking Canada is part of a global Anglo-culture that more or less is dominating the globe. Other cultures are therefore compared to this so-called 'lack of culture'.

Is it that we don't have people doing funny traditional dances? We have those people too; we call them hicks. Is it because we are largely becoming secular, whilst many immigrant communities hold on to traditional religious beliefs? Well, there's plenty of religious Canadians out here too.

So, what the heck is Culture anyway? And what's the big deal? While I'm speaking from a Canadian standpoint, I'm sure english-speaking people everywhere might have an idea where I'm coming from.

Culture primarily deals with the way a group of people perceive the world. Traditional dances are secondary. IMO

What's the difference between Australia and a yogurt?

A yogurt can develop a culture.

Sorry.

I know it was a joke, but...

Australia has a diverse range of cultures. There is, *sigh*, yob and beach culture to pick a few specifics and of course those contributions from our multicultural friends. Recently on Australia Talks Back they had a whole show about how popular Chinese new year is becoming which is a good example. And if you want to talk strictly in terms of historical culture there is the bush- farmers and swaggies which still exists to a large enough extent and which is quite popular. And then there is old school aboriginal culture. The list goes on.

Every culture aspect had or has a reason

that's probably pushing functionalism beyond its limits, unless 'because we can' or 'because it looks cool' count as reasons.

Almost all cultural aspects were (and frequently still are) functional, however: kosher rules were devised mainly to prevent people from getting sick from their food (shellfish=seasonal algae toxicity; pork=trichinosis; milk+meat=too many calories?). The predilection for hot and spicy foods throughout tropical regions exists because capsaicin (chile oil) is a natural antiseptic that helped kill off bacteria on poorly-cooked meals. Hunter-gatherer societies have a potent environmental ethic because they rely upon a healthy and stable ecosystem to provide all their social needs. Religions evolve, adapt, and multiply to remain relevant to changing social conditions and to expand into new populations. Culture is far more dynamic than we give it credit for, and often what people claim to be long-standing traditions are actually relatively new inventions.

I couldnt agree more.

Almost all cultural aspects were (and frequently still are) functional, however: kosher rules were devised mainly to prevent people from getting sick from their food (shellfish=seasonal algae toxicity; pork=trichinosis; milk+meat=too many calories?). The predilection for hot and spicy foods throughout tropical regions exists because capsaicin (chile oil) is a natural antiseptic that helped kill off bacteria on poorly-cooked meals. Hunter-gatherer societies have a potent environmental ethic because they rely upon a healthy and stable ecosystem to provide all their social needs. Religions evolve, adapt, and multiply to remain relevant to changing social conditions and to expand into new populations. Culture is far more dynamic than we give it credit for, and often what people claim to be long-standing traditions are actually relatively new inventions.

Almost all cultural aspects were (and frequently still are) functional, however: kosher rules were devised mainly to prevent people from getting sick from their food (shellfish=seasonal algae toxicity; pork=trichinosis; milk+meat=too many calories?).

so explain how come the people that didn't have such prohibitions managed to survive, not to mention conquer the hebrews?

so explain how come the people that didn't have such prohibitions managed to survive, not to mention conquer the hebrews?

God was punishing them for their lack of faith.

God was punishing them for their lack of faith.

true enough. but the eating of jumbo shrimp didn't seem to impair their ability to carry out the lord's divine judgment. just strikes me as odd if the functionalist reading of dietary laws was really that important.

true enough. but the eating of jumbo shrimp didn't seem to impair their ability to carry out the lord's divine judgment. just strikes me as odd if the functionalist reading of dietary laws was really that important.

Well, dietary laws having a function doesn't necessarily mean that they were explicitly necessary, or gave the people an edge against all others. They can have a function but still not have a huge effect, except maybe in specific, small ways, like avoiding trichinosis. Can hardly expect a lack of pork diseases to automatically defend you against an army.

What is Culture?
AFAIK, this:
http://www.vavatch.co.uk/books/banks/cultnote.htm

culture, in the antropological sense, which is the only sense in which i use the term, is to put it succinctly, what "everyone" knows. or rather what everyone who knows each other knows that each other knows, who have in common being of that particular culture. it is a gestalt of how people expect of each other to live. and act. and treat each other. and the underlying mythose and ethose that motivates them to do so.

=^^=
.../\...

Culture is what you make it.

Some are just more fluid than others, which is why so many deride Anglophones as having no culture, we've just got a more fluid culture.

Canada has a culture:
http://www.zompist.com/canada.html

On the second thought: Culture is a fig leaf for any sort of intention without an inherent meaning.
That page needs some updating. Gay couples can be married now, they don't just get spousal benefits.


After reading the whole thing I think a lot of it is really dumb. Seriously, who tries to write a blurb about Canadian culture without knowing that fireworks also go off on the Victoria day weekend?

Well, dietary laws having a function doesn't necessarily mean that they were explicitly necessary, or gave the people an edge against all others. They can have a function but still not have a huge effect, except maybe in specific, small ways, like avoiding trichinosis. Can hardly expect a lack of pork diseases to automatically defend you against an army.

yeah, but if it's not necessary or even all that important, claiming that a thing has a function rather than a side effect seems odd to me. especially when the dietary laws also contain random rules that don't do anything at all of importance. then it looks more like just another way to distinguish us from them.