NationStates Jolt Archive

US Government rejects ban on cluster bombs
52 minutes ago

WASHINGTON (AFP) - The United States on Friday rejected an international call to abandon the use of cluster bombs, State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said.

"We ... take the position that these munitions do have a place and a use in military inventories, given the right technology as well as the proper rules of engagement," McCormack said.

Forty-six countries meeting in Oslo on Friday pledged to seek a treaty banning cluster bombs by next year, with major user and stockpiler Britain and manufacturer France signing on, Norway said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070223/pl_afp/usnorwayconflict_070223210134;_ylt=Ai2be6CvNqYKRUyC2pCGE3.sOrgF
my2cents: this is a missed opportunity.

Damn You George Soros!

In summary:

International Community: Lets not do X anymore
USA: Fuck you guys, we'll do X if we want.

Even if it immoral, and often kill many innocent civilians for year after we drop them...

I hope their minds will be changed if the summit produces some good results. Kinda like the ban on land mines back in the day.

The last time I checked, the international community wasn't in charge of our government, our military, or our decisions. This is an internal decision.

Even if it immoral, and often kill many innocent civilians for year after we drop them...

They're brightly colored for easy clearing and they've got a timing device that destroys bombs that fail to explode when they're supposed to. Both these things help ensure that few if any civilians will be effected by the cluster bombs long after they're dropped. Sure a few will go undetected and will remain explosive, but that's the same with artillery shells, and ordinary bombs.

In summary:

International Community: Lets not do X anymore
USA: Fuck you guys, we'll do X if we want.

Damn right!,:p

but seriously cluster bombs are very useful in warfare, hell they were extremely effective against the Iraqi military in the Gulf War. Of course you guys are probabley going to bash me down by saying America kills innocent civilians for fun with this weapons, which is bullshit. If there so worried about the destructive power of such weapons why don't they ban the M.O.A.B? Or any ground attack weapon for that matter? There is always going to be civilian casualties in warfare, weapons aren't perfect and they will screw up from time to time.

They're brightly colored for easy clearing and they've got a timing device that destroys bombs that fail to explode when they're supposed to. Both these things help ensure that few if any civilians will be effected by the cluster bombs long after they're dropped. Sure a few will go undetected and will remain explosive, but that's the same with artillery shells, and ordinary bombs.

Even so, the bright colouring does attract kids to them adn those timers arn't the most reliable thigns. I udnerstadn why the US wants them, but thres plenty of other ways to kill people.

Luporum rejects ## before every fucking thread

I hope their minds will be changed if the summit produces some good results. Kinda like the ban on land mines back in the day.

A ban on land mines would be idiotic. Land mines actually keep peace. If you don't believe me, go to Korea.

Even so, the bright colouring does attract kids to them adn those timers arn't the most reliable thigns. I udnerstadn why the US wants them, but thres plenty of other ways to kill people.

Yeah, and a lot of those leave behind unexploded ordinance too. How is that any different? It would be nice if we didn't need artillery or bombs of any sort, but that's not the world we live in.

Insurgents reject ban on use of chlorine as a war gas, film at 11...

In summary:

International Community: Lets not do X anymore
USA: Fuck you guys, we'll do X if we want.

The United States is like Cartman...

And I thumb my nose at the person who says that the UN is like Kenny.

The United States is like Cartman...

And I thumb my nose at the person who says that the UN is like Kenny.

The UN is more like Kyle, Jewish.

The UN is more like Kyle, Jewish.

Um...

I thought that the US was Kyles mom and the UN was Towlie.

The UN is more like Kyle, Jewish.

Pardon me, your swastika is showing.

A ban on land mines would be idiotic. Land mines actually keep peace. If you don't believe me, go to Korea.

I also believe that the more landmines there are, the quicker we all get to ride around on hoverboards.

I thought that the US was Kyles mom and the UN was Towlie.

Which country will be Mr. Hankey the Christmas Poo?

I thought that the US was Kyles mom and the UN was Towlie.

Yes, I saw Kofi's son asking, "You wanna get high?"

but seriously cluster bombs are very useful in warfare, hell they were extremely effective against the Iraqi military in the Gulf War. Of course you guys are probabley going to bash me down by saying America kills innocent civilians for fun with this weapons, which is bullshit. If there so worried about the destructive power of such weapons why don't they ban the M.O.A.B? Or any ground attack weapon for that matter? There is always going to be civilian casualties in warfare, weapons aren't perfect and they will screw up from time to time.
Because the MOAB wouldn't usually kill people years after the end of hostilities - people still die in Kosovo, Lebanon and Vietnam as a direct result of the use of cluster bombs.
A ban on land mines would be idiotic. Land mines actually keep peace. If you don't believe me, go to Korea.
Yeah... Idiotic... That must be why 153 countries has signed the Ottawa Treaty... Because it's idiotic... :rolleyes:

And you're delusional if you think that land mines alone keep the peace. And if they don't do it by themselves, then you might perhaps find alternate methods, mmm?

A ban on land mines would be idiotic. Land mines actually keep peace. If you don't believe me, go to Korea.
That's one place. And you can hardly credit the mines for it as I can guarantee you that both sides have plans to get through that field if the need should arise.

As it is, mines kill indiscriminately and long after the war is over. And the people who suffer are civilians.

It's the same with cluster bombs. To use a recent example, the IDF's bombardment of the border zone in the last day of the war was simply to put up a minefield. That they did that on people's property, on people's farms didn't seem to matter to them. So what we have now is dozens of children without limbs already, and that's it.

I think the American dude from the OP is probably right. If used with the right rules of engagement, and cleaned up promptly afterwards, it's okay. But the Lebanon affair demonstrates to us that this hardly ever happens. Hell, the US hasn't cleaned up its cluster droplets in Iraq either.

So either a ban on the stuff, or a rule that people who fire them have to clean up afterwards.

Hell, the US hasn't cleaned up its cluster droplets in Iraq either.
...or even in Kosovo, where they refuse to say where they used cluster munitions to this day.

That's one place. And you can hardly credit the mines for it as I can guarantee you that both sides have plans to get through that field if the need should arise.

As it is, mines kill indiscriminately and long after the war is over. And the people who suffer are civilians.

It's the same with cluster bombs. To use a recent example, the IDF's bombardment of the border zone in the last day of the war was simply to put up a minefield. That they did that on people's property, on people's farms didn't seem to matter to them. So what we have now is dozens of children without limbs already, and that's it.

I think the American dude from the OP is probably right. If used with the right rules of engagement, and cleaned up promptly afterwards, it's okay. But the Lebanon affair demonstrates to us that this hardly ever happens. Hell, the US hasn't cleaned up its cluster droplets in Iraq either.

So either a ban on the stuff, or a rule that people who fire them have to clean up afterwards.

It's like the people in charge of the US are those jerk kids whose parents let them skip Kindegarten and they never learned things like "sharing" or "keeping tidy".

The United States is like Cartman...

And I thumb my nose at the person who says that the UN is like Kenny.

Nah, the UN is like Butters.

Butters is nervous, naive, easily manipulated, and repressed — while at the same time remains ironically optimistic, wistful and sometimes insightful. He is often punished by his callous and overbearing parents, and is meanwhile blatantly vilified, taken advantage of and/or disregarded by Cartman, Stan, and Kyle. Adding to the tragic nature of his character, his birthday is September 11.
When Kenny seemed to be permanently dead in season 6, the boys tried Butters out as their fourth friend for a while, and when it did not work out a spurned Butters adopted the alter ego of "Professor Chaos", whose costume is clearly inspired by that of Dr. Doom, and he has a sidekick called "General Disarray" (Dougie, a first-grader). Butters tried various schemes to destroy the world, but his niceness and general ineptitude doomed all of his efforts. His character is based on animation director, Eric Stough. Doesn't the bold part describe the UN pretty well?

heheh. X gon' give it to ya...

anyways. I was listening to that WABC radio show (the one with Sean hannity and Rush Limbaw yes I butchered their names sry) and they were talking about this and said in respose:

"so once again its the good guys that aren't allowed to use the bad weapons"
this lead me to think in the 7 seconds of thought the statement was worth..

some weapons are good?
the terrorists have clusterbombs?..wtf??

But yeah I think cluster bombs are a very effective war weapon. Now I'm gonna totally contradict myself. If I were ever in a war the last thing I would want would be to be on the receiving end of one.

In summary:

International Community: Lets not do X anymore
USA: Fuck you guys, we'll do X if we want.


That can summarize about every news story ever.

It's the same with cluster bombs. To use a recent example, the IDF's bombardment of the border zone in the last day of the war was simply to put up a minefield. That they did that on people's property, on people's farms didn't seem to matter to them. So what we have now is dozens of children without limbs already, and that's it.

We won't mention the number of land mines that Hezbollah seeded throughout Southern Lebanon before the Israeli incursion, digging them in over a period of six years.

The UN is more like Kyle, Jewish.

If it were then Israel wouldn't keep getting more resolutions against it than genocidal regimes like Sudan.

I thought that the US was Kyles mom and the UN was Towlie.

What, the U.S. is a big fat stupid bitch? :p

Which country will be Mr. Hankey the Christmas Poo?

that would be um.... lets see... who loves me? I don't think any country lives up to that standard.

We won't mention the number of land mines that Hezbollah seeded throughout Southern Lebanon before the Israeli incursion, digging them in over a period of six years.
Why not?

I mean, true, that wouldn't be cluster ammunitions but land mines (and as I said, if you have to use them in a war zone, fine - as long as you clean them up afterwards) so you'd be missing the point of the thread, but I'm not gonna stop you. I'm not exactly a fan of Hezbollah either.

The point is that if we think that putting mines in a civilian area is wrong (which most people do), then using cluster bombs to the same effect should be treated the same. Especially if it just reeks of cynicism like in the IDF example.

What, the U.S. is a big fat stupid bitch? :p

Now sing it in Hungarian!

Why not?

I mean, true, that wouldn't be cluster ammunitions but land mines (and as I said, if you have to use them in a war zone, fine - as long as you clean them up afterwards) so you'd be missing the point of the thread, but I'm not gonna stop you. I'm not exactly a fan of Hezbollah either.

The point is that if we think that putting mines in a civilian area is wrong (which most people do), then using cluster bombs to the same effect should be treated the same. Especially if it just reeks of cynicism like in the IDF example.

There's probably more land mines and cluster bombs per square meter in southern Lebanon than can be cleared in 20 years.

Adding a few more doesn't really make a difference.

Just like many of those countries sign resolutions against whatever is the flavor of the moment while being some of the biggest abusers of whatever it is. (ie. slavery, child soldiers, land mines, womens rights, etc)

At least the US is honest about it. Would it make anyone feel better if the US signed the "treaty" and then kept doing it anyway like the majority do?

Why the hell would the US ban Cluster Bombs? They are immensely useful in warfare. One of the best weapons in the US arsonal, IMHO.

At least the US is honest about it. Would it make anyone feel better if the US signed the "treaty" and then kept doing it anyway like the majority do?

Looking for a silver lining?

There's probably more land mines and cluster bombs per square meter in southern Lebanon than can be cleared in 20 years.

Adding a few more doesn't really make a difference.
Now it would be your turn to prove that.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/761781.html

They reckon there would be somewhere around 500,000 new unexploded bomblets there now, waiting for some unlucky person to make their acquaintance. And I can say with some confidence that the mines that were there previously weren't covering the towns.

What I mean by cynicism is that the IDF wanted to create a buffer zone with as little human activity as possible. By mining the rubble of the towns in which there had been combat, you reduce the chance that people can actually live there again any time soon.

Why the hell would the US ban Cluster Bombs? They are immensely useful in warfare. One of the best weapons in the US arsonal, IMHO.
This guy has a good idea: http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Brigadier+General+R%C3%A4ty+Finland+will+not+get+cluster+bombs+that+linger+in+terrain/1135225335028

Could it be that difficult to get some sort of self-destruct mechanism happening that makes the explosives go bad after a while?

Could it be that difficult to get some sort of self-destruct mechanism happening that makes the explosives go bad after a while?

No, it's not that difficult.

Most US cluster munitions manufactured since the mid-1990s incorporate a self-destruct device (i.e., they are self-clearing).

It's not 100% effective, but it's better than nothing. Of the ones that don't detonate on impact (up to 10% of the total), about 5% of those will not self-clear.

So, let's do the math. If all of the 500,000 were the new kind of bomblet, we have 50,000 duds laying around, of which only 2500 are still around now.

Of course, if they're the old style bomblet, you have a bigger problem.

This guy has a good idea: http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Brigadier+General+R%C3%A4ty+Finland+will+not+get+cluster+bombs+that+linger+in+terrain/1135225335028

Could it be that difficult to get some sort of self-destruct mechanism happening that makes the explosives go bad after a while?

It would be a great idea.

Here's an example that we exported to Israel.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/adam.htm

Self-destruct times are 4 hours for short self-destruct (M731) and 48 hours for long self-destruct (M692).

Here's an example of what the Israelis used:

a report released wednesday by the United Nations Mine Action Coordination Center, which has personnel in Lebanon searching for unexploded ordnance, said it had found unexploded bomblets, including hundreds of American types, in 249 locations south of the Litani River.

The report said American munitions found included 559 M-42’s, an anti-personnel bomblet used in 105-millimeter artillery shells; 663 M-77’s, a submunition found in M-26 rockets; and 5 BLU-63’s, a bomblet found in the CBU-26 cluster bomb. Also found were 608 M-85’s, an Israeli-made submunition.
Source (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/25/world/middleeast/25cluster.html?ex=1314158400&en=d574fae82fcffb07&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss)

Any of those have self-destruct timers?

More self-destructing mines:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/raam.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/m76.htm

Interestingly:

Mines start their safe-separation countdown (arming time) when they receive arming signals. This allows the mines to come to rest after dispensing and allows the mine dispenser to exit the area safely. Mines are armed after the arming time expires. The first step in arming is a self-test to ensure proper circuitry. Approximately 0.5 percent of mines fail the self-test and self-destruct immediately. After the self-test, mines remain active until their SD time expires or until they are encountered. Mines actually self-destruct at 80 to 100 percent of their SD time. The time period from when the mines begin to self-destruct and when they finish is called the SD window. No mines should remain active after the SD time has been reached. The probability of a live mine existing past its SD time is 1 in 10,000.

If it were then Israel wouldn't keep getting more resolutions against it than genocidal regimes like Sudan.


Has Sudan been at its merry way for 40 years non-stop?

Gee, what a shock.

Gee, what a shock.

A shock that the US wouldn't voluntarily cripple their air-to-ground arsenal?

Has Sudan been at its merry way for 40 years non-stop?

No, just an attempted genocide and the enslavement of people in Southern Sudan by Northerners since 1983 followed by the genocide in Darfur. Only two decades. Much more brutality though in the form of gang rapes, slavery, amputation of limbs, and actual genocide. Should have a comparable number of relolutions against it.

I'm just glad that Germany can't be blamed for the invention of cluster bombs! Oh! Wait... :rolleyes: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cluster_bombs)

I'm just glad that Germany can't be blamed for the invention of cluster bombs! Oh! Wait... :rolleyes: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cluster_bombs)

Yeah, but the US gave us these... (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/Nagasakibomb.jpg)

Yeah, but the US gave us these... (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/Nagasakibomb.jpg)

Well the British were mainly involved in this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II). It may not have had the same death toll but still effective I'd say.

Yeah, but the US gave us these... (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/Nagasakibomb.jpg)

Good times, good times.

In summary:

International Community: Lets not do X anymore
USA: Fuck you guys, we'll do X if we want.

Rinse, repeat.

Good.

Good.

Hi MTAE.

Hi MTAE.

Oh I am not MTAE! Thanks for playing.

Hi MTAE.

If he's MTAE, than I'm MTAE too.

Really disgusting, as it happened with Kyoto treaty, america's goverment once more shows their selfish nature, they don't want to be in any treaty that actually benefits mankind because "it is against the best interest of America to join this treaty, so you may as well kiss my uncle sam's trousers"

Rest assured, i'm not attacking the citizens of the US, i'm only attacking their goverment, surely some americans would agree with me, if not, well it's your goddam life.

Israel also sucks.

Israel also sucks.

This has nothing to do with Israel so please leave Israel out of it. However, you brought this up so here's a follow up question!

Why?

This has nothing to do with Israel so please leave Israel out of it. However, you brought this up so here's a follow up question!

Why?

remember the conflict with lebanon, months after the end of the conflict, those bombs were found, and killed innocent people, i don't justify Hezbollah, however even america got mad at israel for using those bombs.

remember the conflict with lebanon, months after the end of the conflict, those bombs were found, and killed innocent people, i don't justify Hezbollah, however even america got mad at israel for using those bombs.

So basically Israel sucks because they defended themselves using bombs that you do not like.

That's an idiotic reason to dislike a nation.

So basically Israel sucks because they defended themselves using bombs that you do not like.

That's an idiotic reason to dislike a nation.

Defend themselves? excuse but it's more foolish to say that Israel defends itself, it's been long since they had to defend themselves against a powerful enemy.

btw i don't dislike israel, some good friends of mine are jews, and i love them, it has nothing to do with race or religion. I dislike their goverment.

Defend themselves? excuse but it's more foolish to say that Israel defends itself, it's been long since they had to defend themselves against a powerful enemy.

With that logic then the US being attacked by mere terrorists does not solicit a response because they are not a powerful enemy?

Defend themselves?

Yes defend themselves. Sorry if you do not like the phrase.

We now return you to the thread about the US Rejection of the Cluster Bomb thread and a good thing we are rejecting this.

btw i don't dislike israel, some good friends of mine are jews, and i love them, it has nothing to do with race or religion. I dislike their goverment.

Next time, SPECIFY!!!

Japan, Poland and Romania refused to sign the accord, while key nations such as Israel and the United States did not take part in the conference.

But of course it's perfectly OK for some nations to have cluster bombs...just not the U.S.

...sorry, but if North Korea ever flips out, I'd rather the USAF actually have the means to take out those truck columns carrying infantry into what's left of Seoul.

Unless you'd rather we used Napalm...we could go back to that. :rolleyes:

But of course it's perfectly OK for some nations to have cluster bombs...just not the U.S.

...sorry, but if North Korea ever flips out, I'd rather the USAF actually have the means to take out those truck columns carrying infantry into what's left of Seoul.

Unless you'd rather we used Napalm...we could go back to that. :rolleyes:

Just hit them with FAE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel-air_explosive) and vaporise them.

Cluster bombs have their use, but until the dud rate is further reduced further I wouldn't drop them into civillian areas.

I miss good ole fashioned Tactical Nuclear Warheads.

I miss good ole fashioned Tactical Nuclear Warheads.

FAE weapons have the destructive power of low yield nuclear weapons without all the nasty fall out.

FAE weapons have the destructive power of low yield nuclear weapons without all the nasty fall out.

Better idea; Use Neutron Bombs.

All kinds of gruesome killing power without all that nasty fallout or damage to infrastructure!

Genius!

Better idea; Use Neutron Bombs.

All kinds of gruesome killing power without all that nasty fallout or damage to infrastructure!

Genius!

I don't think anyone still builds neutron bombs though.

I don't think anyone still builds neutron bombs though.

Eh, I'm sure the US could dig some out of a warehouse someplace. Same for the Russkies and the ChiComs.

and if this treaty bans the use of oh i don't know, the JSOW?


It has many submunitions that deliberatly target tanks and a squadron of F-16's is now able to completely wipe out an Armored Division.





Well if we can't use clusterbombs anymore, lets just go back to carpet bombing with B-52's and B-1B's.

Better idea; Use Neutron Bombs.

All kinds of gruesome killing power without all that nasty fallout or damage to infrastructure!

That's a misconception actually. Neutron bombs still produce a blast radius comparable to any other nuclear weapon. However, they produce a far higher rate of radiation (not to mention much more energetic) than any other type.

Tanks and armored vehicles generally are very heat resistant, and are likely to survive close range detonations of nuclear weapons so long as they're outside the immediate fireball. This formed a problem during the Cold War as that meant short of constant direct hits, Soviet tank formations wouldn't be hindered as much as say, infantry.

Neutron bombs were developed to kill tank crews rather than the tank, irradiating the vehicles to the point where instant radiation death upon detonation was a given and tanks were lethally irradiated for 48 hours or more. Meaning any tank crew that got into one within that 48 hour period would die in minutes.

But you'd still have the blast.

That's a misconception actually. Neutron bombs still produce a blast radius comparable to any other nuclear weapon. However, they produce a far higher rate of radiation (not to mention much more energetic) than any other type.

Tanks and armored vehicles generally are very heat resistant, and are likely to survive close range detonations of nuclear weapons so long as they're outside the immediate fireball. This formed a problem during the Cold War as that meant short of constant direct hits, Soviet tank formations wouldn't be hindered as much as say, infantry.

Neutron bombs were developed to kill tank crews rather than the tank, irradiating the vehicles to the point where instant radiation death upon detonation was a given and tanks were lethally irradiated for 48 hours or more. Meaning any tank crew that got into one within that 48 hour period would die in minutes.

But you'd still have the blast.

Well, yeah, it is still a nuclear bomb. But it's like detonating a little itty bitty 1 Kiloton bomb and wiping out an entire Armored Division.

Besides the fact that "rules of war" are stupid, (war is a free for all I dont care what you say) The international community has no damn right to dictate what our government or military does. And the US doesnt have the right to do it to other nations either. Clusterbombs are good, in xtreme circumstances they are needed. War isn't a fucking game. You just can't make up rules. Just cuz the US or EU or PLA kicked your ass doesnt mean that they have to hinder themselves. War is an insane, bloody, dirty and horrible mess. And it should only be engaged when there is no other option. But when war does come around, any and all weapons should be used to win. Just cuz a weapon is effective and kills thousands or even millions doesnt mean it should be illegal. Because thats what war is and if you didnt want that to happen you shouldn't have fought the war in the first place. Hell we should bring back Napalm.

Hell we should bring back Napalm.
They're still using it, you know. Except that these days it's not actually the old napalm, it's kerosene-based. But I dare say that you won't care if you get hit by it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mk-77

and if this treaty bans the use of oh i don't know, the JSOW?


It has many submunitions that deliberatly target tanks and a squadron of F-16's is now able to completely wipe out an Armored Division.





Well if we can't use clusterbombs anymore, lets just go back to carpet bombing with B-52's and B-1B's.

Fuck yeah, carpet bombing, I'd love to see more of that.

Fuck yeah, carpet bombing, I'd love to see more of that.
I'm sure there's an air force training range of some sort reasonably close to where you live. You could ask them to witness the spectacle from really, really, really close up, if you know what I mean. You'll probably have to sign a few wavers of some sort, and that's it!

All the carpet bombing you could possibly want.

I'm sure there's an air force training range of some sort reasonably close to where you live. You could ask them to witness the spectacle from really, really, really close up, if you know what I mean. You'll probably have to sign a few wavers of some sort, and that's it!

All the carpet bombing you could possibly want.

What do you think you insulted me by saying that? That would be a kick ass way to die.... I'd rather it be that than dieing in my bed, when I'm 90 years old, having spent the last 30 years shitting myself in the same bed never doing anything. Of course there would be the ussuall bloody gun/knife fight before the carpet bombing... probably over money, hookers, booze, gold, and women.

What do you think you insulted me by saying that?
No, of course not. I don't do insults.

I just thought it would be good to look at the issue from both sides before you make a judgement, so to speak. I hear my grandparents for example aren't fans of the idea.

No, of course not. I don't do insults.

I just thought it would be good to look at the issue from both sides before you make a judgement, so to speak. I hear my grandparents for example aren't fans of the idea.

Well, If I have to go... It might aswell be in a carpet bombing.....it'd at least look cool. better than getting aids or cancer and dying in a cold white hospital bed begging for the aid but they wont come because they dont care and im screaming and thrashing and drowning in my own blood and bile thats filling my lungs increasingly until I lose oxygen and die... after having spent 10 years unable to do anything..... really....yuk.... :eek:

Any military has the right to use whatever weapons it deems neccesary to defeat their enemy.

Well, yeah, it is still a nuclear bomb. But it's like detonating a little itty bitty 1 Kiloton bomb and wiping out an entire Armored Division.

Nope. The total irradiated area is not really different in comparison to conventional nuclear weapons. It's just a hell lot more radiated.

Any military has the right to use whatever weapons it deems neccesary to defeat their enemy.

Yeeeaah, so you think a military - any military - has the right to use biological or chemical weapons against the civilian populace of their enemy, for example?

Or bomb their busses? Heck, that's only ordinary explosives strapped to a "soldier" so I don't know why I would think you would have any problems about that...

A ban on land mines would be idiotic. Land mines actually keep peace. If you don't believe me, go to Korea.


And why is Heather Mills so obsessed with getting rid of land mines. She's got half the chance of stepping on one compared to normal people.

But of course it's perfectly OK for some nations to have cluster bombs...just not the U.S.

...sorry, but if North Korea ever flips out, I'd rather the USAF actually have the means to take out those truck columns carrying infantry into what's left of Seoul.

Unless you'd rather we used Napalm...we could go back to that. :rolleyes:

Hear! Hear!

Defend themselves? excuse but it's more foolish to say that Israel defends itself, it's been long since they had to defend themselves against a powerful enemy.

Hezbollah isn't a powerful enemy? How come they're claiming victory agianst Israel then? How come they're still around after last summer's war?

Do you think Israel should just ignore it when Hezbollah crosses Israel's borders and captures it's people? Fucking Jews, always fighting back when someone tries to harm them.

FAE weapons have the destructive power of low yield nuclear weapons without all the nasty fall out.

Not really. Low yield nuclear warheads are still on the scale of hundreds of tons of TNT. Fuel Air bombs are significantly less powerful. Even the MOAB clocks in at only about 11 tons of TNT yield.